The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
A series of conversations with those in the legal profession navigating the ups and downs of the law during and after lockdown. How has this changed the profession as we've emerged from the global pandemic?
The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
Friday Conversation with Elaine Roche, Tax & Planning Partner at Kuits
Elaine and I discussed how a career move works in lockdown and how getting into a routine at home has helped her with the pressures of remote working. Is being "busy" a good thing? (Audio only).
You can find out more about Elaine here.
Podcast host Hannah Beko is a self-employed lawyer, coach and creator of the Lawyers Business Mastermind™ (the place for entrepreneurial lawyers to grow).
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If you'd like to take part in a #FridayConversation, please do email Hannah@authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.
Hello everyone, welcome to another Friday Conversation. Today I'm talking to Elaine Roche from Kites in Manchester, who is a tax and planning partner. Elaine, thank you for joining us. Come and introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, thank you. Well, I'm, as Hannah said, Elaine Roche. I have just joined Kites, so this is my first week there. I joined the tax team there, so I deal with wills and trusts, tax planning, estate planning, and all that really exciting depth tax and madness kind of stuff. You must
SPEAKER_01:be pretty busy at the moment then.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah sadly things are pretty busy partly you know sadly because people are passing away but also people have got more time to think about things and they're spending more time with their family so deciding whether they like them or not. So yeah we're reasonably busy across the board but yeah it's interesting times.
SPEAKER_01:So you must be either the second or the third person I've been speaking to in this series who's moved firms during lockdown and you were just sharing with me one of your biggest achievements on, was it Tuesday?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Tuesday morning, so Monday evening, a colleague, a new colleague delivered a huge box of wires and screens and phones and little boxes of gadgetry on first thing Tuesday morning via the Wonders of technology in the telephone. I had IT talking me through how to put it all together. And as you can see from here, it's all working. So, you know, first time in my career, I've not broken some IT, so I'm very proud of myself.
SPEAKER_01:Oh no that's brilliant because those are the technical things aren't they? I mean there's lots of things that go with changing firms and you shared with me you've been at your previous firm for 11 years so it's a big upheaval and a big change even at the best of times but then you know the IT and getting the systems working is just the most important thing right now isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah absolutely and it's working really well I mean Yeah, surprisingly easily to pick up with everything. Obviously, we are all now Zoom aficionados and know how to do everything with it. And it's just made life so much easier. Sort of meeting with colleagues. I've even had a social Zoom call with a fellow female partners. So yeah, it's going really well. It's just the small things you don't know how to do. So just before I came to talk to you, Hannah, I had to email a colleague saying, to work out how on earth to actually send an engagement letter out no idea
SPEAKER_01:oh well do you know that's really funny because one of my new colleagues at gonna cook um we have a buddy arrangement at gonna cook so when somebody new starts they buddy up with a more experienced partner so my buddy emailed me this morning and said i'm sorry for this silly question but i really need to know how to send a letter out
SPEAKER_00:totally i've got no idea i haven't had to do it yet
SPEAKER_01:so oh absolutely but you know i was like yes i can answer that one that's easy but Yeah, it is. It's always these silly, it's like, it reminds me of the first day in an office back in normal times where you just didn't know where the printer was or how to work it or the scanner. And it seems so silly to ask those questions, but they're the things you need to know. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:They are the absolute key things. So yeah, we'll slowly but surely. I've not had to ask about how to get to the toilet. So I'm okay with that one at least.
SPEAKER_01:That's good. And you know where the kitchen is. So that's all positive. Yeah. So just before we started, you and I were talking a bit about hours and expectations and the culture of presenteeism and things. How much did you work from home before lockdown? Is it something you did a lot or very infrequently? How different is it now?
SPEAKER_00:I didn't do that much, to be honest. I would probably only do it if I had a specific, really complicated thing I had to get my head around or, you know, if there was a child ill or something. So before that, I was full time five days a week in an office. So, yeah, it's been a huge change.
SPEAKER_01:And how are you finding it at the moment? I know it's not, you know, it's easy to say, oh, this is the remote working we always wanted. But actually, you know, we didn't want to be homeschooling at the same time. I know that you've got a little one because we've met once or twice this morning or this afternoon. But yeah, is it, I suppose it's just not able to compare with the situation we're in now to what normal flexible working would be like, is it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's really difficult. It's working... As well as it can do. So I've got an eight-year-old and a four-year-old. So they need a lot of, you know, in terms of schooling and all the rest of it. It is very much you have to be sat with them. Thankfully, my husband's at home as well. So between us, we kind of balance it. He's not at home today, hence why we've had a few interruptions. Yeah, it's a balance. And I think, you know, at that age, eight and four, I'm not too bothered about the intellectual education. It's more the hugs and getting them out in the garden. Yeah, certainly in terms of the work life. I could see this, you know, working a bit quite well on the way
SPEAKER_01:forward. Yeah, definitely. So what do you think have been your highs and lows of lockdown so far?
SPEAKER_00:um gosh oh well start with the lows I think the first couple of weeks were just just hard to get your head around a working from home be the whole scary thing that was this unknown disease coming through and to keep everyone's sanity um I think by week two I had a bit of a ugly crying moment, shall we say. But things seem to have, we've sort of settled into a routine now. And sort of the mornings are less fraught. You know, I can get up and do stuff before the kids are awake. And then actually when they're awake and getting up, I can actually spend some time with them. Definitely the highlights have been being able to spend more time with the nature and getting outdoors with the kids.
SPEAKER_01:yeah definitely that certainly the weather improving as it did at the beginning was it was a huge blessing
SPEAKER_00:absolutely yeah yeah
SPEAKER_01:yeah no it was so have you have you learned anything about yourself your work your family over lockdown that you think might be useful for other people
SPEAKER_00:oh um what if i look i suppose it's that incessant busyness that i think we're just, we force ourselves into, you know, when you're around everybody else, you think, I must, I must, you know, more, more, more, more, more, always busy. But actually now I've sort of, I've stopped doing as much, you know, on purpose. I'm actually going, no, I don't need to be busy. And actually just taking that time and saying, no, I'm just sitting and listening to the birds. I've sort of developed a, I will do, I do a little bit of yoga first thing in the morning and some reflection. And then at the end of the day, I kind of, close my computer we're lucky we've got a separate room that i can work in so i can close the door and absolutely i don't do anything in the evening whereas i think pre-lockdown i was probably always had an ear out for the phone whereas now because it's all on top of each other i'm very much now in the evenings are mine
SPEAKER_01:That's really interesting, isn't it? I mean, those are certainly, you and I have not worked together on a sort of coaching level at all, but those are certainly things I say to my clients, you know, do something like that in the morning, like you say, meditation, yoga, reflection, writing, whatever it is, even just having 10 minutes of peace and quiet with a cup of tea. And then, yeah, that physical space separation, if you can, is always great so that in your mind, that's your working space and not your home space. And then shutting the door and shutting the computer down at the end of the day. um so do you think that's just sort of helped you cope with the sort of ups and downs and the stresses of lockdown
SPEAKER_00:i think that's it as i got into that that routine more i've just felt calmer about it you know it's sort of once i've finished work um i sort of close the door and then i actually go downstairs and on the because we've had such nice weather i've been able to to sit out on the deck with a bottle of alcohol free beer um and just go right this is I mean, it was, it was, it was alcoholic beer to start with, but it, you know, calm down a bit now. Non-alcoholic beer now at sort of half five, six o'clock. And that just, just sort of goes, like, just sort of draws that line for me. And then on with the chaos of family life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that sounds really good. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm glad that seems to be working for you in terms of, yeah, I guess enjoyment of family life at home and that separation with work. I'm sure there are certainly a lot of people who could probably learn from that and try and put some of that into practice.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, it's interesting, isn't it? The different things that we've all learned about ourselves in this time.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, because it's interesting. In fact, that was something you said at the beginning of when I asked this question about the busy, busy, you know, we are as a profession so used to being busy is the sort of, you know, the badge of honor, you know, you don't want to be a not busy lawyer, because then, you know, you can't be very good. You should be busy. And there's been this sort of race to the race to the bottom, I guess, in terms of, you know, our health and happiness and things to be the busiest we possibly can. But, you know, busy doesn't necessarily mean productive. and certainly not happy or healthy. So that would be a great realisation for people to make over this period, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. And I think the more efficient you can be, just because you can do things in half the time does not mean you need to do double of them.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_00:You started from them, except, you know, you've got even more clients bothering you. But yeah, I think it's... think we've really got each of us have got to you know decide what what is our own level and i think it it takes courage to actually say do you know what i i'm not going to look at the world around me and all the other busy busy people and go no this is what i want this is my happy and even if it's not you know six figure salary or whatever you know driving the right car or the right type of clients or in the office till 7 p.m This is my happy. But being able to hold on to that when all around you does something different is not easy.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's not. It's really, really interesting you say that because, yeah, that's certainly something I've found over the years. And I started to think, well, you know, you look at these really successful people, whatever you judge that to be, you know, the Richard Bransons of the world or whatever. And I thought, I'm sure some days he probably only works two, three, four hours and he still has, you know, a great business. Although, of course, we won't talk about that at the moment. But, you know, six months ago I could say this and it was true. But I thought, you know, yes, why do we measure our success on the number of hours we work? I would feel more successful the less hours I work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. There's a great thing that was going around. I think it was on LinkedIn. I saw it. And it was about, it says about an American tourist somewhere in South America. And he says to the fishermen, well, why don't you get another boat and work more? And the fisherman was like, well, why would I want to do that? And he goes through everything. this guy explains how you could go through and, you know, syndicate it and bring it up and make it worldwide. And you end up working in the US for a major corporation. And then you get to retire back to a little fishing village. And the fisherman said, well, I'm already in the fishing village. Why would I want to do all the rest of it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:exactly. Yeah, I remember. My whole life. Yeah. As now, rather than waiting till I retire to live like that.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's so true. Yeah, we work so hard for this ideal life, whereas actually sometimes you can look around and see what elements you've already got of it. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, and the busyness, definitely. If that is something that a lot of people could learn from this experience and hopefully take back into their lives, hopefully not just go back to the way it was, which I don't think we're going to be able to for a very long time anyway. But I do have some hope for that because, you know, I think there's a statistic that it takes between 20 and 60 days to make a new habit. And I think all of us have made new habits in this period. So there's no reason... we shouldn't carry them on afterwards.
SPEAKER_00:I thought it was interesting. So Kites this week have sent out, obviously with the easing of lockdown and looking to the future, we all got sent a staff survey as to how we found working from home, what has worked, what hasn't. And actually when we are allowed back in the office, how much do people see that they would need to be in the office? So that, you know, they're already looking at how to reconfigure the space and also, I guess, how much space You know, we've got staff who are traveling from Staffordshire. We've got people coming from Crosby into the central Manchester, which is, you know, hour and a half journey each way. So if they don't need to be traveling in, you know, if they only need to be in the office one day a week, then, you know, that's 80% less desk space that's needed. Granted, obviously, it looks like hot desking will be out of the question for a while. You know, they're really, you know, I think, and it's not just Kites, I think a lot of firms have found that actually productivity hasn't dropped that much. People are getting the work done and it's just about looking after the mental health and obviously there's issues around physical health and safety if your staff are scrunched in a ball doing their work on their bed. But there's certainly lessons to be learned and I think the office space will look very different when we get to our new normal, whatever that will look like.
SPEAKER_01:No, absolutely. I mean, there's so many things that, you know, I've been talking about for years that actually might come about, like, as you say, less space needed for offices eventually, once we don't have to do so much social distancing, but less commuting. So, you know, better for the environment and less time wasted commuting when you could actually be, you know, doing some work or getting some exercise or whatever it is.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. You just hope that we keep those lessons. I know I read recently, you know, after 7-7, you know, use of the underground understandably dropped dramatically and people wondered if that would be a change for a lifetime. But apparently within two months, it was back to levels before that. So, you know, we do have this habit as humans of reverting to type as it were. So if... I suppose if we can put in ways of making life easier for people to give them another option then then that'd be great, but we'll just have to.
SPEAKER_01:No, absolutely. It'd be a very interesting time. And it was interesting that you said, you know, for some they've not noticed a huge drop in productivity or in fact an increase. So when you think about it, when we're not having to do the homeschooling anymore, we're back to more of a normal, you know, we can work from home, but yes, our children are at school. I mean, just imagine how the productivity will be then.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's, yeah, actually I hadn't factored that in, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's, that would be huge. You know, you would get so much done. you know, your day could then be shorter because you're just far more efficient. I mean, there's then the balancing with the whole, you know, sort of social isolation. And there is a real benefit of working together and collaborating and being in physical presence. So there's definitely a balance to be struck between being able to work from home and working from the office
SPEAKER_01:oh definitely I don't think anybody has disagreed with that that I've been speaking to you know even you know hardened fans of working at home like me you know I still want to be in the office at least once a week when when we're back to it because yeah I miss my colleagues and and that interaction I mean I even silly as it sounds miss the commute because I only did it once a week you know I even miss walking through Manchester and getting my coffee on the way to the office you know um So I'll be glad to get back to that sense of normality. But yeah, it is a balance. And I think, as I say, everybody I've spoken to agrees with that. It's not about 100% working from home all the time. It's both.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think what has been really great is the innovative ways that people have worked out how to do things from home. I mean, certainly at my last firm, You know, billing, you know, it's always a nightmare at the end of the month and there's paper flying everywhere. And then suddenly with very little notice, it was 23rd of the month, we were locked down. We've got to, our accounts team had to work out a new system of how to do everything online and our IT team grew up and they did it. You know, necessity is the mother of invention and they've done it and it's, you know, working and, you know, we've had, because we were forced into doing all these things, whilst it was a nightmare at the time to do them, they're now in place. So actually, you know, there's less barriers to homeworking going forward.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I 100% agree. And I do watch with lots of interest about what the coming months and year or so is going to bring for the whole argument of remote working, flexible working, all those sorts of things. So hopefully it will turn out to be change for the good. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you so much for talking to us, Elaine, especially in your first week of your new job. And I know you're very busy. So I really appreciate your time. No
SPEAKER_00:problem at all, Hannah. Lovely to speak to you as well.