Friday Conversation with Jackie Mulryne, Partner at Arnold & Porter

In this episode Jackie and I discussed her route to partnership and juggling motherhood and maternity leave during the promotion process and also in lockdown.   We talked about the different approaches to maternity leave and how one worked better than the other for Jackie.   I think we will be discussing this further!

To find out more about Jackie please click here.

Podcast host Hannah Beko is a self-employed lawyer, coach and creator of the Lawyers Business Mastermind™ (the place for entrepreneurial lawyers to grow).

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If you'd like to take part in a #FridayConversation, please do email Hannah@authenticallyspeaking.co.uk. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:02

Hello everyone and welcome to another Friday Conversation. Today I'm joined by Jackie Mulryan who is a partner at Arnold and Porter Solicitors. So hello Jackie, thank you for joining us. Hello, thanks for having me. Oh it's great to speak to you today because I know you're going to be sharing with us things from a different point of view perhaps to other people that we've spoken to so far. But come and introduce yourself, tell everybody what you do.

SPEAKER_00: 0:26

Hi, I'm Jackie. I'm a life sciences partner at Arnold& Porter, as Hannah said. And that means I advise pharmaceutical and medical device companies on a range of regulatory issues that arise throughout the product lifecycle, meaning kind of clinical trials to getting the product in the market and then issues once the product's on the market. So quite a hot area at the moment. That's all been very interesting. But I've had a slightly different experience because I am currently on maternity leave. So whereas everyone in the office is very busy at the moment, I am slightly removed from that and it's my second maternity leave. I have a five-year-old son who is currently a reception and my little baby Ollie is about four months old.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14

Oh, that's fantastic. That's lovely. So normally I start off by asking people the question, well, how much did you work from home before lockdown? So how different is lockdown working for you? But obviously for you, you're on mat leave, so it probably looks very different for you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29

Yes, it does. So I work 80%. I came back from my first mat leave and negotiated 80%. And for me, that means flexibility through the week. I technically have Monday off, but actually I use it as coming in early one day, coming in late another, doing pickup, depending on what works for my family. But obviously coronavirus has changed that completely, not least because I'm on maternity leave. And one of the things I wanted to talk about with you, Hannah, and I know that you've had similar experiences, was how that's worked. So I actually have been working during my maternity leave. I've done some things with work and I've kept in contact with some clients, some of who are friends anyway, and wanted pictures of my very large cuddly baby. But I also had a case that I've worked on for literally five years that all came to a head in April and there was no way I was not going to read those pleadings before they went into court because I've been working on this case for ages. But I think that's actually really helped me. During my first maternity leave five years ago, it was a very traditional maternity leave. I put on my out of office and I didn't really keep in contact. I tried not to check emails. And I was an employee that was on maternity leave. And I found it really hard. I found it very lonely, all consuming. And I think I lost myself, to be honest. I became mum. I was no longer Jackie and I was no longer a lawyer. I was just mum. And I really felt I wasn't very good at that. I was quite used to getting things done and having a to-do list. And my son was added to that to-do list. And we had baby classes and checkups and he was going to come along to them. And I don't know whether this is fortunate or unfortunate, but he's definitely inherited my rather Mediterranean personality. It's what he wants. And it was not always what I wanted. And I found the whole thing really difficult. Added to that, when I came back to work, I put so much pressure on myself to continue to get promoted. I think... While I worked flexibly and I worked 80% of the time and work was really supportive of that, we're lawyers, we work in a service industry. There's a very defined hierarchical career path and it's quite difficult to get promoted. And I came back from work and I worked twice as hard as I did beforehand to prove that I still had it and I could still be partner but that was to the detriment of my family. So I had this kind of perfect storm really of finding maternity leave really difficult and then coming back and putting so much pressure on me and my family. And it just wasn't very nice. And I don't know whether I had postnatal depression, but I was certainly not a happy person and it put an awful lot of strain on my family. And I actually, I almost left law after that. Although I got promoted to salaried partner that year, I felt enormous pressure and I just wasn't enjoying it. But I received some great support, some advice and mentoring and sponsorship. the head of our office actually at the time, advised that I start coaching, which has done me a world of good. And I know Hannah that you

UNKNOWN: 0:00

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SPEAKER_00: 5:31

But I've been working a lot about work-life balance, putting in place boundaries, how to work from home, and how to be more present and kinder to myself and my family. And I think it's paid off. I mean, I was promoted to partner last year, And I feel enormous amount of pride for having done that and to having a happier family life while doing it. This paternity leave, I guess I've been trying to do things a bit differently to try and avoid all of that. Coronavirus has almost helped actually, because everyone has been working from home and kind of everyone has been a bit more, honest about their childcare responsibilities. But coming back to your question, Hannah, sorry, I've been rambling. But I have been keeping in contact with work a lot, or checking my emails a lot, at least, and delegating matters, keeping in contact with clients. But actually, I think it's really helped me to do that at this time.

SPEAKER_01: 6:39

No absolutely now I didn't want to interrupt you there at all because it was fantastic stuff so I hope you know I was definitely I was like a nodding dog I was I was agreeing with everything you were saying I know you can't see but no I know that you're very passionate about this topic because you and I have discussed it before and I completely agree with you and that's why I just wanted you to share that story with everyone because I as I said to you just before we started I think it's a subject that isn't talked about enough the the idea that for many people they go off and because just just to share with with others i know you know already i have a similar story to you in that my first maternity leave was was i was employed it was traditional year off maternity leave and i i didn't really have anything to do with work at all other than taking the baby into the office for a visit as you do and you know meeting the old friend for lunch but other than that i had very little to do with work um Actually, coincidentally, I did work with my husband at the time and he'd sometimes get me to help with the odd report on title and things. So I didn't feel I'd forgotten how to do work, but I wasn't sort of doing official work. But I found it extremely difficult. And I think just like you mentioned, I found I was treating motherhood like a job. I had my list and I had my classes and things like that. So I sort of replaced one job with another. And I do feel I got towards that depression scale towards the end of that year. and going back whereas my other two children I was self-employed for both and so yes I cut down my work but I didn't officially ever stop working and I always had my hand in and so from my mental health perspective I have to agree with you that those second and third maternity leaves were far far better than the first one

SPEAKER_00: 8:24

and I agree I wish people would talk about it a bit more and I didn't even think about it before my first mat leave. Having a baby was just added to my list of things to do. And I worked right up to my due dates and was probably exhausted. And I wish either I had prepared more or people had prepared me more and spoke about their own experiences so that I could have managed my expectations, I think, about what mat leave would be like and what returning to work would be like. I mentioned to you before we start, before this maternity leave, I reached out to the female lawyers in private practice group, which is set up by one of the partners at Shoesmiths. And I just asked the group, how did you manage mat leave as a junior partner? I am self-employed now, but I'm also building a business. And it's quite hard to juggle the two, as I know you know. But I had such a range of responses from that group. of the way people did it differently. Some people switched off, but only for a couple of months. Some people, as I and it sounds like you did the same, kind of kept their hand in. Some people had delegated their matters to someone in the office. Some people mentioned having a kind of smoke and mirrors type attitude so they could answer emails, but other people did the work. And it was just such a range. And I'd never really thought about it before. And I hope this can help start that conversation so that people can think about it a bit more and prepare themselves because I feel in such a better position for this maternity leave. I feel positive about both the maternity leave and the going back to work. And it's made such a difference to my family. Unsurprisingly, having a miserable mother affects everybody. But if I'm lighter and more positive and I feel more in control, not to say that it's all perfect and sweet and light and my son still doesn't sleep, but I feel more positive about it and it will hopefully make a real difference for the future.

SPEAKER_01: 10:44

Yes. Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with you. And I did do it. I remember doing a session in London. I don't know if you were there or not. And I can't remember which one it was. But we talked about various maternity leaves, because I think we were talking about, you know, raising your profile and your visibility at work and your relationships with clients. And you mentioned it there as part of what's happened this year that, you know, you had a big case on and you wanted to keep in touch with clients anyway, but you particularly wanted to keep in touch with this case that's been going on. And I think that's what I was talking to people about at this session, which was everybody's got to make their own decisions, which you've talked about there, gather the information, learn from other people's experiences, but then decide what's right for you and your family. You know, you and I are not telling anybody to do it this way, just consider it perhaps, because for some people, they want that complete shutdown. They want to be away from work. And, you know, I wouldn't tell them that's wrong, but then for others like yourself, if you enjoy it and you have those good relationships with your clients that you want to feel comfortable you can take your time off but when you come back you'll still have those relationships then I think that keeping in touch it just does no harm at all.

SPEAKER_00: 11:53

I completely agree it's really important in so many areas but for each person to think about what's right for them for their family for their career and for their own mental health there's no one size fits all and I think a certainly I took the approach during my first maternity leave that I had to do it a certain way and that way wasn't right to me, but I didn't see any other option. And that has to be more acceptable. Firstly, for people to stop comparing themselves with others, which I am not good at. But secondly, it should be more acceptable that people can do what's right for them and they won't be judged for it or made to feel guilty for it. As I said, and that's right in so many areas, but in this crazy, newborn lack of sleep and no one knows what they're doing anyway, I think we all need to be kinder to each other and kinder to ourselves.

SPEAKER_01: 12:47

We do. I think there can be a lot of judgment, whether that judgment exists. I think perhaps some of it does. But mainly it's judgment that we put on ourselves, isn't it, about how we are as a parent. You know, how much are we working? How much are we at home? How long do we take off on maternity leave? Plus the myriad of other things. We judge ourselves a lot. And there is some judgment there as well, I think, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00: 13:09

For me, it was nearly all internal. I am lucky. that my work was so supportive of it. I'm part of the Leaders Plus, which is a kind of leaders with babies leadership course. And it's a range of parents, although predominantly women, from a range of industries and backgrounds, all trying to do the same thing, have a career with a family. And it's quite amazing how similar people's stories are. We're all trying to do the same thing. And a lot of it is the internal pressure of us feeling that we have to be promoted at the right time and do the right thing. And if I could say anything to myself five years ago, it would be, it just doesn't matter if it takes an extra year to be promoted. If you take six months out, if you take a year out in the grand scheme of your career, it doesn't matter. It's more important that you are promoted. happy, I guess, happy at home and see and enjoy your children rather than trying to cram everything into that first year of a child's life, which is crazy enough without putting that extra pressure on yourself.

SPEAKER_01: 14:26

Yes I think I think that was how how I felt having done it differently that the next couple of times which was you know by being self-employed I was trying to create a future for for you know the foreseeable future while the children were at school and and all those things where I was around generally more and able to go to the last minute assemblies and swimming classes and things so it didn't to me it didn't matter that I wasn't around as much as I would be if I was on full full maternity leave but that I was creating something for the longer term where I'd be around a bit more so yeah I can I completely agree with you. But yes, I think the biggest message is that people should decide for themselves, find information from other people, listen to other people's experiences and then decide what's right for you. Completely agree. Yeah. So you haven't had the same lockdown experience perhaps as some of us, but what have been your highs and lows of lockdown as a family or as a new mum?

SPEAKER_00: 15:22

I felt... I suspect everyone did, but I was really sad at the beginning of lockdown. My son was only a couple of weeks old when it happened, but I felt my mat leave had ended. He was only, yeah, he was about a month, I think, when the schools shut. And I just felt I couldn't spend proper time with him. I couldn't do all the things that I wanted to do. Obviously all the baby classes were ended and trying to do a baby class over Zoom is just very difficult and you realise that the point of the baby class is for the mum and not for the kid. And I wasn't able to, you know, go to coffee shops and go for long walks and meet friends and all of that, all those things that I had put in place in my mind for this mat leave couldn't happen. And then mixed with that was the anxiety of Ollie not being able to have all his proper checkups, the six week and the eight week and all those things, they were all done very differently. And at one point they said he couldn't have his vaccinations, which just stressed me out even more. And we have actually been able to have them all in slightly strange circumstances, but it was just a real low. And then, added to that was trying to home school a five-year-old, which was difficult to say the least. I felt really sad for him. He loves school. He's in reception this year and he just loves playing with friends and being with kids his own age and learning, not phonics, obviously, but he just loves that environment. And I just felt so sad for him that we wouldn't be able to do that And I was, I was envisaging him just being miserable for months and endless battles while we try and do things with him. And we'd never even spent a weekend in the house because he needs to be out running and cycling and climbing. And the thought of just being in the house, it was terrifying. And so the first couple of weeks, it hit me really badly and linked to the fact that my hormones are all over the place. But, it hasn't, I actually, when I look back at it now, I feel really positive. Um, it's been amazing having us all at home together. I mean, my, my husband has been a rock to us all throughout and he's, um, he's the fun one and he does all the silly things and has patience and it has been really fantastic having him home, not only as part of the leave because he's helped me when i've really had an awful night and i just need 10 minutes on my own um but he he kind of injects that silliness into the day whereas i have been trying to do homeschooling endlessly um but it's also been great to watch my eldest learn he he he does like learning Again, not the phonics, but the other things. And he's funny and he's interested and inquisitive. And it's just been really great to watch that. And looking back, I actually feel really lucky that we have spent this time together, all getting to know Ollie, our youngest, but also getting to know each other. Usually we're all running around doing things, trying to get out of the house in the morning or trying to get into bedtime. And it's just always a rush and having that sort of lazy time to just spend together and get to know each other. Actually, I feel really positive about looking back, which I really did not think I would at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01: 19:16

no I'm really pleased to hear that I know it's been a roller coaster of a time for everyone and everyone's had their own personal experience but I can share with some sympathy with you with the ups and downs with the schooling I've got a six-year-old who's in year one so yes we've had we've had some battles over that he's back at school now for a little bit is your so is your little boy back in reception at all now

SPEAKER_00: 19:40

yeah he's doing alternate weeks because they've obviously split the class in half um so today's his last day at school because he's oh next week, which I didn't deal with very well this morning. It took me a while to realise why he was quite so emotional this morning, but we figured it out eventually.

SPEAKER_01: 19:57

Oh, no, it's so hard, isn't it? I mean, a whole other topic is how the children will cope with this.

SPEAKER_00: 20:03

I'm so proud of them, though. I mean, they're shoved into this school, not school, being at home, not allowed to see their friends. And for the kids I've seen in the whole, they've just dealt with it so well, much better than the adults. I feel so proud of them all.

SPEAKER_01: 20:21

Yes, I know what you mean. I think, like you say about your family, you know, being able to get closer together and get to know your little one. I've seen that with my three. I mean, yes, they fight. They're not angels at all. But yet they have, they do play together really nicely sometimes. You know, when you get that moment, you catch them and they're behaving nicely together. It is nice. And so I like to think as well that with the ups and downs of it, it might bring us all closer together as a family too. Yeah. so is would that be one of the things you'd say has been one of your biggest learnings that you know other people might learn something from

SPEAKER_00: 20:58

yeah um i mean i i don't have all the answers by any means and most of the time i feel i'm doing it very i'm not doing what i should be doing and i'm not doing it correctly but i guess this has taught me that that doesn't really matter um for even in really difficult times you know we're a happy family and we enjoy spending time with each other most of the time and it's just been really nice to have that time and I guess I spend a lot of the time thinking that I'm not good enough at home and that I don't do things properly and it comes back to what we said earlier just we should be a bit kinder to each other you know I'm me and my husband are at the centre of their world and it's just really nice that we can all spend that time together and appreciate it a bit more and I know it's something that you've said a couple of times but I hope that carries on after this I've really enjoyed spending that extra time with the boys, my husband included and I'm gonna be a lot more conscious about doing that in the future and being present at home rather than just kind of going through the motions of bedtime and pickup because it's been amazing to have that time together.

SPEAKER_01: 22:21

No, I think that's a really wonderful point you've made there. And similar to what people have said to me over the last few weeks as well. So that's a lovely note to end it on, Jackie. I know you and I could talk for a very long time about maternity leave, partnership, self-employment, all sorts of things. And I hope we'll talk about them some more. But thank you so much for coming to join me today. No

SPEAKER_00: 22:45

problem. Thanks for having me.