Friday Conversation with Sally Penni, Barrister, Podcaster, Author & Founder of Women in the Law UK

Sally and I discussed her personal experiences of lockdown in this episode released in the week of her birthday.  From juggling her office with her husband to managing court zoom appearances with children joining in, Sally has been busy.  With her daughter Maddie, she has also written a book "Rosie and the Unicorn" in lockdown about love and friendship in a diverse world.  Available on amazon with all proceeds going to charities close to Sally's heart.

You can find out more about Sally and Women in the Law UK here.

Podcast host Hannah Beko is a self-employed lawyer, coach and creator of the Lawyers Business Mastermind™ (the place for entrepreneurial lawyers to grow).

If you are a legal professional, please feel free to join our free Facebook Group for networking, tips and support - Legally Speaking, a group for the legal profession by clicking here.

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You can connect with Hannah on LinkedIn or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.

If you'd like to take part in a #FridayConversation, please do email Hannah@authenticallyspeaking.co.uk. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Hello and welcome to another Friday Conversation. Today I'm very excited to be joined by Sally Penny who is a barrister, an author, a podcaster and the founder of Women in Law UK and many other things as well. So hello Sally, it's a pleasure to have you today.

SPEAKER_01: 0:19

Oh, hello, Hannah. Thank you so much for inviting me to be on your Friday conversations and to join you. I know you've had loads of really interesting people on here. So I'm really humbled to be invited for a chat. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 0:34

Oh, not at all. I know, Sally, you always have lots of interesting stories to share about lockdown and about life in general. But come and introduce yourself to anyone who doesn't know you. Come and tell us a little bit more about you. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 0:49

I mean, there'll be loads of people who don't know me, will they? So I'm a lawyer, but the barrister and the distinction between us is really that I wear a white wig made from horse hair and a cloak and gown. And my practice areas are crime and employment. So crime, box standard crime, but also regulatory crime, data protection breaches. And outside of that, I have a few hobbies. You mentioned my podcast. I founded Women in the Law UK. And I've also authored a couple of books. And as well as having three children. So that's a mouthful and a half. But I think the most important job is being a good parent or the things that are most important to me anyway, our family and being a good parent. So yeah, so that's who I am. I'm a barrister with a few hats, different hats and a few hobbies.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45

Oh, absolutely. And yes, I'm sorry I missed off mum of three. I had it written down here, which of course I know you are. I'm a mum of three myself. And as you say, juggling all those things is not always easy, is it? No, gosh. I mean, and lockdown, it really

SPEAKER_01: 2:00

highlighted that.

SPEAKER_00: 2:02

It did. Absolutely. So before lockdown, how familiar were you with working at home? You know, obviously in your role as barrister, I'm guessing you're in court a lot. But did you do a lot of work from home before this?

SPEAKER_01: 2:15

Yes. It was a mixture, really. So I did... I was mainly a court, I'm a court advocate. I suppose listeners, you would say litigators. And so I go to, I prepare my cases and go to court. PI solicitors and, you know, chancery people are very rarely in court, you know, clinical negligence. I've got a good friend of mine who's a head of his chambers. And we're having lunch and he said to me, not during COVID obviously, but he'd said to me, oh, I've not been to court on a case for 18 months. And I'm like, what? because all his work is done at home uh and you know occasionally in chambers um and indeed and another one who's you know left sort of suburbia and moves the country um and i'm like oh don't you miss the city or you know nipping to mns and all these things and she's like well no because i just when i need to go to chambers i just get the train but i do all my work at home so for me i did a mixture so all my prep for uh you know the cases that i'm preparing. I tended to do a home because I could then do pickups, you know, whereas the pre-kids days, um, you know, you finish a case and spend the afternoon in the pub, uh, and not worried about rushing. Yeah. Rushing to collect your little people, um, uh, or, you know, having somebody else collect them or after school club or childminder, all those support things that, um, uh, you know, you have to have. And so, yeah, so I did do a mixture actually. I mean, I read, obviously I've written a few books and they were written a home like my cyber security that was really the first time that I did a bit of work at home but I wouldn't say I'm somebody who would class themselves as working at home my idea of working at home was really knocking on my neighbour's door and getting a quick cup of coffee and then going oh gosh I need to go to work yeah so it's been very new to me in truth the actual practicality of you know nine o'clock to five o'clock working from home as we have been for the last 17 weeks um it's different and it's very new as to all of us really.

SPEAKER_00: 4:33

So how have you found it how have you found that transition to being at home 100% of the time with the challenges of homeschooling and your other half being in the background as well how's all that been? Um

SPEAKER_01: 4:45

you know in the beginning it was it felt a bit of a holiday I you know I like to be pragmatic so you know timetable um worked out the 12-week period uh for my work what the children had to do um how we will manage our time uh and you did remote hearings that I would have how that would work so I was fairly organized at first and then of course the practicalities then kicked in um so you know people are appearing to say you know so and so said I can't go on the trampoline or, you know, these are my children, not random people entering. That would be burglary. But, which is a criminal offense. But, you know, the children preparing or needing a cuddle, you're like, well, I've told you, haven't I? There's a sign on the door when mummy's in the office. She can't come in. The door's closed. And then, you know, and then I thought, well, then it's more mysterious. So then you leave the door open so that, you know, it's less mysterious then, isn't it? There's nothing exciting going on in there. Yeah, it was quite hard. And also I found that my office then is then... was shared for, you know, bits of the day whilst my husband worked in the office behind my banners or whatever else. So suddenly we were two, we were like sharing an office, which is very odd. So that didn't work. And so we just rearranged the time. We then had to have a timetable for when the office was in use and when it wasn't in use and who was using it. And of course I was homeschooling. So, I mean, I have to say in truth, when the weather was nice, it didn't feel so bad, but when the weather was awful, And it was bad. It was a juggle. And it was trying to, you know, get the court equipment working. I mean, I use lots of different platforms, MS Teams, WeTransfer. web transfer, Prexy, Adobe, Zoom. So I'm very familiar with using the technology in this way, whether it's witnesses or so on, or telephone conferences and employment. But combining all of those things has been a challenge, actually. And I think often, I realize that I'm someone who probably has pretended I don't have children, hide the vomit on my shoulders because my children are older now. Yeah. And so if if they should appear any time, you know, like we've seen on loads of news clips where you've just mortified that, you know, these people have appeared into your professional life and you're like, you know, get out. And then you've got to go and teach three different curriculums to three lots of people. So it has, it's been a massive challenge and, and trying to keep enthusiasm for their work so that you can do your work.

UNKNOWN: 7:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:29

Yeah, so that's, you know, honestly, that's been, I know I've shared with you the mummy, we were trying to get you and, you know, Will's finished his poo and he was calling you, you didn't come to wipe his bottom. And just like, do you need to go? You know, the voice at the other end. No, no, fine. Let's just carry on. I think we've almost finished, haven't we? Your lordships. You know, that type of thing. But my children are quite good now. But it has been a challenge because we didn't prepare for it. We weren't prepared for it. We were suddenly in lockdown. If at least we, you know, if we had a month to prepare for it, you would be more clearer and children would have understood. But they're very good now. They'll never come up here now. Certainly not for course things, you know, occasionally with women in law webinars that I've been running in this period, they appear in pyjamas and you have to sort of get them off screen because I'm not one for, you know, I don't know why. I think it's a way that we've professionally been to hide our children and hide our husbands and who we are or whatever else. So we all still get embarrassed here. But yeah, I'm okay with it now. And it's been interesting, actually, because I've managed to write a book, which I think you said I could talk about.

SPEAKER_00: 8:44

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 8:45

During lockdown. And we gave an interview, my little one, I was going to say number six then, I've not had six. I could barely, barely, you know, say I have had three children, but I couldn't barely have, I couldn't have those just about, yeah, I haven't got six children, I've got three children. My youngest is six, Maddy. And she was the hardest to teach in the period because they just needed to sit with them. You've got to go through the work. You've got to explain things and you have to go through. So that was quite tough. And then she started resisting a bit, which is hard work. They had my work to do and the school work. And the school were phony. And they did these welfare checks on everybody. So we've not been uploading anything onto the school platform. And I said, because I've got to take photographs of the work, then upload it somehow from my phone onto the Mac to upload it or the iPad. They wouldn't work on the iPad. Anyway, to cut a convoluted story short, we were doing some English work and spag and phonics. I know you've got kids, so you know. And I said, let's do a story, you know, after mental health week, which was in April, I think. So we wrote this story. It was her idea. That's why nothing much happens. Rosie and the Unicorn, the book is called, about the unicorn, a girl that dreams of a unicorn. Her brothers dream of having a dog. The other brother dreams of a football pitch. Anyway, she wakes up and the unicorn is there and it's about the adventure they go on and it's just really about kindness and love and friendship so yeah we've published a book and that's the one positive thing out of lockdown can you believe it book about unicorns I know I know you've got a copy so I hope you like it I have

SPEAKER_00: 10:31

I have and I don't think it's the one positive thing to come out of lockdown I'll mention the other in a moment but yes we have got a copy of Rosie and the Unicorn and for anyone else who would like one they are on Amazon at£7.99 at the moment

SPEAKER_01: 10:43

Sally great and it's all for charity so we want to sell loads of copies the three charities are NHS key workers so it's the NHS charities and the Royal Manchester Children's Hospital who treated my eldest son for an illness a life limiting illness and the third one is Young Minds who are a brilliant charity because teenagers have been disproportionately affected or young people by the pandemic as well so those are our three charities especially especially Royal Manchester Children's Hospital, because they are local to the north, where great works are being done on the bone marrow transplant unit. And we need to keep that work local so that not everything goes to London and becomes London-centric, because children up here, in all guises, need good children's hospitals. So, yeah, so that's really good. No, there are loads of other things that have come out of lockdown, Hannah, not just my book or the ease... The ease of trying to just appease a child so we can upload onto the school system and say, actually, this is what we've been doing. I think that flexible working has become the norm, and I think that's a fantastic thing. I don't know if you agree. For all of us, having gone through this shock, this is proof that women and men can work flexibly, and the request for flexible working should be granted. We know by law it's not an automatic right. Of course, people can be refused. But the right to apply is a right. And so I think that that is one of the benefits that no more can we say women are leaving the professions because they can't work flexibly and therefore cannot progress because we've seen we've done it because we've been forced to do it.

SPEAKER_00: 12:33

Oh, absolutely. No, no. And no, I was meaning for you personally, some of the other highlights to come out of lockdown. And for me, one of them is definitely the series of webinars that you've been organizing through Women in the Law UK you know and I know that on top of everything else on your plate some weeks you've been running probably six or seven webinars and I know how helpful they've been to so many people during that time

SPEAKER_01: 12:56

oh Hannah that's so nice because I mean I just thought we're in a crisis I saw someone send me an advert or something the other day and it said in Chinese crisis symbols for crisis are opportunity and danger and the danger I felt was that everybody would become lonely and isolated and inward and there would be limited opportunities for growth so you know the two growth mindsets which of course we all suffer from the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset and i wanted people to have the growth mindset and use the opportunity so that they know every lunch time there would be something educational on that they would learn and not that's not to say and i was careful about the time they were on so it didn't conflict with any anything else that might be on like i know um women lawyers and mothers you've got loads of fantastic groups so we didn't conflict with any of those and also we were careful that these were educational things so the mind could grow and it would expand the mind and take the mind off whatever we were doing whether it was homeschooling working it would just give you an hour of switching off and for people to eat you know from a well-being a welfare point of view um for people to stop and eat and grab a cup of tea because for some people The days, they didn't know what days it was. you know oh

SPEAKER_00: 14:17

absolutely

SPEAKER_01: 14:18

yeah so I mean so that that was a conscious decision you know we were doing stuff beforehand but they were monthly or quarterly depending on the areas and they were in person but so yeah thank you and I hope they've been really useful you know people write all the time to say but it was just an opportunity to learn stuff you know from well-being because you've done a couple of webinars for us which have been brilliant Hannah with tips on well-being and you know confidence and all those things you know the soft skills we that I don't think we're taught enough of that we all need but nobody really kind of teaches it and nobody's really honest that you do need you know business development skills in the in our quest to be lawyers now people we forget we all shy away from it and it is a reality and so and I don't know what BD is you probably do Hannah hopefully so you know we've kind of tried to learn some of those things during lockdown perhaps the stuff that we probably wouldn't have learned or wouldn't have come natural to us so yes thank you so that has been you know it's been quite an action-packed program deliberately and we're easing off now because you know it is summer holidays i know we're coming to the end of the well not at the end of the pandemic at all but the death rates are lower so that we should celebrate it but as the economy opens and offices open um we're just allowing people to have a bit of a breather um so we've still got loads of stuff on and I hope you come back on in September October to do a session for us there might be more evenings as opposed to lunch times but there's still a combination so that's been nice and I'm glad that you know you came to train for us and the people enjoyed them really Hannah because I think it's it's been good for me actually no just to one to two is when the courts would close so it means that barristers solicitors silex paralegals students managing partners we I have quite a few managing partners. Everybody and anybody can look at the clock wherever you are and go, right, it's one o'clock. Let's go and get a bit of a lunch to learn. And then you're back in quarter to 15 or whatever you're doing.

SPEAKER_00: 16:31

absolutely and I know that they've been a lifeline to a lot of women that I've spoken to as you say not just that networking opportunity the training as well but just a bit of time for themselves as well just as you say an hour out of their day just to do something for them as well so yes thank you very much

SPEAKER_01: 16:49

and I got to learn a few box sets which you recommended particularly from the Thursday nights glass of wine and a cup of tea gosh I didn't know these box sets existed all all these handsome men and people's dating lives you know everything was discussed Chatham House rules on the Thursday night sessions as well as the experts that we had thank you for reminding me of some of these box sets that we've now discovered

SPEAKER_00: 17:17

not at all just finally Sally then what do you think is one of the biggest things you've learnt in lockdown whether it's about yourself or your family or your work what do you think others might learn from

SPEAKER_01: 17:32

I think, I don't know if I've done the full reflective period, but I think on a serious note, there are a couple of things, probably three most really. Number one is really that education is important, but other skills, particularly for children are important too. Um, they need life skills. They need conversation skills. Um, and actually they just want to be with you. So, um, yes, of course we've been doing the endless school. I mean, my children would tell you they'd rather be back to school, quite frankly. Um, this, I'm not a very good teacher. It seems, um, I'm too strict apparently. So, um, yeah, so they, They would probably, but I think what I've learned about myself has been that actually in that process, that first answer that I gave, that it's okay to learn to play chess. It's okay to, you know, learn to play Mario Brothers. Even I've become quite good at that now, Hannah. Restricted. Because other things are needed and it's okay to become quite good at gardening and to do Cubs and Scouts badges. That's still learning as well. well um even on you know the few hours of resistance to just doing timetables and fractions and so that that i've learned that about myself that it's not all just about the education the second thing that i think i've learned through the lockdown is actually how much help we need uh gosh you know i've missed my cleaner i know it's not indulgent thing but you know if you've got more than three children crikey it's a real uh Um, you know, you've got all the little things that help become a big issue because you're at home all the time and you develop OCD and you know, and if you see it, you've got to clean it. So I certainly have found for myself that I actually like clarity and some of that clarity is having spaces that are not toys and that's been the outdoors. So I've learned that I'm actually quite a keen gardener and I love greenery and I love growing things. So that's the second thing. And the third thing that I've learned from the lockdown really has been about flexible working and home working the benefits and I suppose also the few cons of it you know the pros and cons mainly pros it can be done it can be effective you can have to schedule in downtime you have to be disciplined to stop so saying right turning off for this time now because you're at home and children are like when we finish our school work when are we playing Monopoly so that yeah that requires a lot of discipline um i have found but i found the con of it is that you need to have your own networks you need to have um someone use the word tribe on one of my webinars the other day when they were saying i'm so grateful for this tribe um and and that has been for me and i think what i have learned is you need to have your own networks where you can just relax where you're accepted but just downtime you need to have your downtime you know the well-being time so the homeworking brilliant and great for progression i think an advancement because we've proved we've done it and we should be rolling it out but important to keep an eye on people's welfare because we're not going into offices now and having chats with the ushers in my case or the security you know commenting on my new trainers or you know the new shoes i've got or whatever it is new haircut we're not having little chit chats um here or there having that human contact And I think that as a learning, we have to build that in into the system. So I think that people are managing teams or they're part of teams at home. That is definitely something that I've learned a lot actually. And about me, that I love socializing and I love speaking, giving keynote speeches to large rooms, but actually we've learned to do it digitally. It's not the same. And I don't really like seeing black boxes with just people's names on it. I prefer to see people, but I've certainly learned that it can be done and they were adaptable which is such an important life skill isn't it flexibility and adaptability

SPEAKER_00: 22:07

absolutely I think they are some fantastic learning points that you've picked up there and I'm sure many would agree with you and some will learn from them as well but thank you Sally for coming to join me today it's been fantastic to catch up with you

SPEAKER_01: 22:21

you know you are amazing for doing this and I really really appreciate it and I've learned so much from you the happiness coach speaking authentically I know you know how to be happy all those positive things and as I say gardening has been one of them and actually spending time with you know with our beloved and not killing each other I think that's I think we should all reward ourselves for still having other halves I know domestic violence has increased highly I don't think that's a surprise but I think we should all you know say yes we've coped and we're coping and even our husbands are even though you know some of us have been doing most of the work and have become cooks teachers cleaners as well as barristers and lawyers so yeah I think there's a lot of learnings and I think it's good for us all to stop and reflect so thank you so much for inviting me Hannah. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: 23:23

No, you're very welcome, Sally. Thank you.