Friday Conversation with Emma Davies, vice president of Cilex and author of Take My Hair (but not my humour)

I really enjoyed my conversation with Emma about her experiences of qualifying through ilex, her mental and physical health struggles and how this shaped her response to lockdown/the pandemic.

Emma talks a little about her book Take My Hair (but not my humour) and how humour (and friendship) helped her through a breast cancer diagnosis.
 
Do connect with Emma on Linkedin here https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-davies -0b678b22/ where you can find out more about Cilex and order a copy of her book!

About your host, Hannah Beko

Podcast host Hannah Beko is a lawyer coach and corporate trainer for the legal profession focusing on leadership skills in law firms.

Hannah has also created the Build Your Legal Business Podcast which you can find here https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/build-your-legal-business/id1569422462

If you are a legal professional, please feel free to join our free Facebook Group for networking, tips and support - Legally Speaking, a group for the legal profession https://bit.ly/fblawyers

Do connect with Hannah on Linkedin here https://linkedin.com/in/hannahbeko/ or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.

You can also find Hannah's bestselling book, "The Authentic Lawyer, How to Create More Success in Your Practice and More Balance in Your Life" on Amazon and Kindle. 

In this episode we mention the Women in the Law UK Day Event in March 2023, you can find details here https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/witluk-conference-celebrating-international-womens-day-tickets-469853874587

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:03

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Friday Conversations. Now today I'm joined by Emma Davis who is the Vice President at Silex but also has just started telling me so many interesting things about her life over the last few years. So she is going to tell us more in this episode about her journey into motherhood, the highs and lows of that, mental health challenges and physical health challenges she's had over the last few years and how those prepared her for lockdown and helped her to deal with lockdown. She's also a fan of authenticity, which you all know is the subject of my book. So I hope we're going to talk about that. And she mentioned to me that she's also written her own book called Take My Hair, But Not My Humour. So I hope we're going to hear more about that too. But Emma. I'm sure I've left out some other bits and bobs, so do tell everybody a little bit more about you. Thanks ever so much, Hannah, and thanks ever so much for having me along. So I think that was a pretty good introduction to start with, so thank you ever so much. I'll start off by saying, obviously, I am a lawyer. I never set out to be a lawyer. I had no aspirations to become a lawyer. It wasn't something I wanted to do from a young age. And actually, I'll be honest with you, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just know I wanted to help people in some way, whatever that may look like. I don't remember, if you remember when you were at school, you could put this was back in the 90s you could put information into a computer and it would spill out what it thought that you might be um what you might want to do what did yours say first off a train driver um i think on the basis i like to travel so i don't i've never been interested in trains either so that was that was the first thing bank manager was the second thing not particularly good with figures so i'm not sure where that one came from the third one a bit better a manager of a travel agent so i suppose it had a little bit on the nail there with that um but i really didn't know what i wanted to do but i knew i wanted to go to university And I was really interested in travel. And I thought maybe I'll work for a tour operator when I'm older. So I went to university. I have a degree in tourism management or my debt chair degree, as my husband lovingly calls it. But actually, it was a really interesting degree. And it was really well rounded because we had different modules in finance, economics, law. So you can see the tenuous link there to becoming a lawyer later. All sorts of different things. And I loved university. I did a lot of traveling. I realized then I didn't want to work for a tour operator at the end. of it so I left university and I thought all right what what should we do now um randomly got a job as for Kellogg's as a um territory manager completely random turns out I'm not particularly good at sales or don't really like sales so that a sales job wasn't the job for me um so I left um Kellogg's I then went to work for Reuters as a market analyst completely complete I know my CV reads like a patchwork quilt but I tried lots of different things before I finally found what I was interested in but it was it was really interesting working for And actually, I got the job because I could type really quickly and was very quick at data inputting, got a substantive role, was going to re-qualify. But then in my mid-20s, I was made redundant. So it was at that point, my first turning point, if you like. So I'd had lots of different roles over the years, retail management, working in bars. And I thought, come on, Emma, what is it you would like to do? Focus. So I thought back to when I was at university and I really enjoyed psychology or law. So you can guess which route I took. So I thought I will take a job as a legal secretary first to see if I like law and if law likes me. And if I'm honest, I got off to quite a shaky start because I didn't I didn't feel like I fitted in if I honest. I've got quite a bubbly personality and I had a bit of a shaky start and I really questioned whether law was something that I'd be interested in. and going into. So the second law firm I worked for, I worked for a female barrister doing civil litigation and a female solicitor doing family law. And that was a fantastic group of women. And it was very evident early on that they knew that I wanted to progress. I was really interested in cross-qualifying. And at the time I was going to cross-qualify to become a solicitor. and go down the solicitor route. So I signed up to UWE to convert my non-law degree, and my law firm kindly agreed to give me an interest-free loan. And it was then the barrister that I was working with, she said, oh, what about ILEX? Now, it was ILEX then. I'd never heard of ILEX then. I didn't know what it was. I looked it up, and to me, it was a no-brainer. I'd already been to university. I was working. ILEX was a earn as you learn route to qualification and when I went and spoke to the practice manager they said oh we'll pay for you to do that if you want to go down the ILX route so I withdrew from UWE I could have been sat here as Emma the solicitor today because that was the route I was going down but I withdrew and I went down Emma so I'm sat here as Emma the chartered legal executive because for me it was a no-brainer it was the firm were going to pay for it And also I was doing the job, which was fantastic. And also my barrister colleague, my solicitor colleague, they were giving me tasks really early on. Obviously I had dictation as well because that was my role, but they were giving me tasks from the outset. So I was earning whilst I was learning, but also learning a lot from the outset. So that's how my role into law came about. And obviously over the years, it's progressed and done all sorts of different things. Oh, fantastic. No, it's so interesting. And I know we have discussed that we will do a separate episode, possibly with a few other people, about the Silex route. Because a few years ago, I recorded a series about different routes into law and different where you can end up, destinations in law as well. So I definitely want to talk more about that, but not today. Because there's other things I want to talk about today. So you started to talk about, and interestingly, someone said this to me just on Friday. I was at the Women in Law Conference on Friday in Manchester. Excellent, by the way. And there will be another one in March. I'm sorry, I missed that. I've already got the date for March. Wonderful. I will make sure other people know in the show notes about the March one as well. But I was just talking to a lady at that event who said very similar to you. I didn't, I don't, sometimes she still doesn't feel like she fits in because she feels she's too bubbly. this idea that um you're too something too um friendly too outgoing too bubbly too excitable whatever it is isn't it interesting that people feel that they don't necessarily fit into law if they have those sorts of qualities it's yeah and and i i really struggled it with it for many many years if i'm honest i mean if i just give you some examples so i i'd come from the service industry retail bar work where you are supposed to be bubbly it's a service in you're meeting people you're talking to people and you want them to have a good experience so I took those skills with me and very early on realized that if I wanted to fit in with the places I was working I had to don my spark if you like um I remember one day I went down to the cashier's office and picked up my checks for my team I saw another team's there and I picked those up as well went back to the managing partner and the look she gave me because I just walked into her office to give them to her not the done thing and it she just I won't tell the response I had but I just had to walk out of that office with my tail between my legs thinking that I'd done a good thing but that that was from that point on I thought oh my goodness I'm really not sure that I'm going to fit in here and I didn't I didn't stay there very long I moved on to the next place but there was there was a couple of incidents over the years so for example I've got a tattoo on the bottom of my back you wouldn't you wouldn't have a clue unless I showed you it you would not know it was there and then at the Christmas event I leant over a table to reach something and the response I had was if we knew you had that we would never have employed you. And I just thought, my goodness, you can't see that. You never see that. And what bearing does that have on my ability and my knowledge to do the really good job that I'm doing for you? And it's just, and I know that's only two small things, but there was lots of little snippets and comments and also the way that I qualified as a Silex lawyer. Unfortunately, fortunately in my current job where I've been for 11 years, there is no difference between the solicitors, barristers and Silex. We're all treated the same. But my experience in private practice was sadly quite different. And I think it just changes chipped away at me over the years and I just thought my goodness is is I really questioned one is this the right thing for me to be doing but also I I I kept changing myself, trying to fit in and trying to dull my spark. And actually it took moving to where I am now is absolutely fantastic. And I can just be myself. And I am accepted for the way I am, both in terms of my personality, but also in terms of the way that I've qualified to become a lawyer. And it was then when I've gone through different challenges in my life, which I'm sure we'll come on and speak to about in a moment, that I've really found my feet. And now that I'm in my 40s, I am at peace with who I am and I know I'm not going to be everybody's cup of tea and that's fine you know I I know the people who want to be surrounded and input with me that's absolutely fine you can't get along with everybody and that's okay you don't need to change to fit in with other people yeah yeah oh if you were there on Friday you would have heard me say all those sorts of things in my authenticity keynote so I couldn't I couldn't be nodding harder with what you're saying it's um it makes me sad and it's sort of why I do a lot of the work I do that after all these years, we still haven't come further. I mean, even just this weekend, we were sharing on LinkedIn a few of us different posts about when we were told you had to wear skirt suits to interviews, you know, and And someone else was telling me a couple of weeks ago, I remember some ethnic minority colleagues saying when they go to a business development and networking events, they still feel they are treated differently. Some people don't come and talk to them or they leave talking to them straight away. And just hearing and the silence experience, you know, that I have heard that some people have where there's this differentiation of treatment. It just has to change. It really does. Oh, it has to, doesn't it? Because I... I have friends who are barristers, solicitors, Silex. I surround myself with good lawyers and I don't care how someone has come to the table. The important thing is what you bring to it. Everyone's journey is unique and different and it's fab that you've had different journeys to get there. But the importance is what do you bring, not how did you get there? And I don't think you should have to change yourself to try and fit in in different scenarios. Now, don't get me wrong. I act professionally when I go out. I don't go to professional meetings dressed in jeans and hoodies and my flamboyant self that I would be if I was meeting friends down the pub. I know how to behave in professional settings, but I can still bring my personality and my sense of humour. One of the things I pride myself on, actually, when I've given training through my work job to RCN members who are nurses, they are ordinary people who just want me to explain things in a factual matter, but in an easy matter that they can understand. And when I've gone to training events, they've said to me, you're not like a normal lawyer, are you? Now I'll take that as a compliment, to be honest, because it means that they can relate to me. They're understanding what I'm telling them. So I'm doing my job, aren't I? Because they've got the information they need in that training session or through the case that I'm helping them with.

UNKNOWN: 11:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:38

Yeah, no, I must admit, I get told that as well a lot. You're not like other lawyers and I perfectly take that as a compliment. I'm very happy to. And do you know what? I think there's a lot more of us out there that with the right support and encouragement and confidence can be themselves more. I think they are. I think there are. And also I'm very conscious that I have a telephone voice as well. And for a long time, I was really self-conscious because obviously I've got a West country accent and a lisp. So I don't even sound... whatever a typical lawyer is um and okay yes maybe I do have a telephone voice and maybe the telephone voice is slightly on now to what what it normally would be but um It's really difficult, isn't it? If this is the way I speak. Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, that's another thing, actually, to the list I mentioned before. Accents, regional accents. Exactly that somebody was saying to me the other day when they feel different or imposter syndrome kicks in can be to do with accents as well. So very true. But I do want us to have lots of time to talk about something you mentioned a moment ago about how challenges that you've been through in life. And I think you mentioned to do with, you know, having your children and things like that and then health challenges, how they prepared you for lockdown and how you dealt with it perhaps differently to other people. So tell us, tell us all about that. So I was always very career orientated so once I got going in the legal world then I had career aspirations to climb the career ladder. I had children later so I had my first child when I was 34 Toby and it hit me like a train. There was me this former and I say former perfectionist overachiever and I thought having a baby would be easy. No experience of babies, I didn't even babysit. I was quite old when my brother had children as well so I had no experience of children so the feelings I felt inside of overwhelm from about day two onwards when my my child was failing to thrive which was interesting technology terminology that the medical world used so I just went into this obsessive downward spiral of just feeding him sleeping repeat well not sleeping on my part and very quickly the wheels started coming off but I was too ashamed to tell anybody that I wasn't coping so I internalized it all to the outside I was still smiling still the same bubbly character but what was going on inside was very different And I found child, childhood with my son, very, very difficult in the years. I was really lucky to have a year off work. So I went back after maternity leave and I thought, right, now I'll slot back in. I'll be a mum. I'll be a lawyer. And this is what I'm going to do. I went back three days a week. Really difficult juggling a caseload of work Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, because you go in. He was quite clingy. So I would leave him there. I'd just have to walk away in tears and I'd go into the office and go in the toilet, sort myself out. go in be a lawyer for the day dealing with really demanding issues then straight away there's a rush to get back and pick him back up convert back into mummy mode and it was exhausting and then I'd have this real on a Monday right I've got to get everything done because I'm not in on Tuesday then when I was with him on a Tuesday I was felt guilty because I was thinking about work and the things I needed to do and I really struggled if I'm honest Hannah I found it so difficult and I didn't tell anybody and I was getting more and more tired at the same time that's when I joined Silex Count So I've done a stint before the one that I'm on now. So I sat on the old-style science council for three years. And it got to a point where I had to come off. I just couldn't do it. I had to make a choice. It was the right thing, but the wrong time. And my family had to come first then. And I started having panic attacks. I started getting really muddled. When I was off on maternity leave, I couldn't string a sentence together. And so the overwhelm, I thought, my goodness, if I can't speak now, how on earth am I going to be articulate and go back and start drafting things? And I was really worried, whereas before I was really articulate and I could hold decent conversations. I couldn't even remember things now. And it was really tricky. So I started having panic attacks and it got to the point I thought I need some time off work. And luckily, it coincided with the Christmas leave period. and I phoned our employee assistance program and I didn't even know where to start so actually I'd made a whole list of things and the poor I say the poor woman who answers the phone she was wonderful I literally just got it all out that felt very cathartic actually just releasing it because I hadn't I hadn't told my employer I hadn't told my husband or my mum I just kept it all in and also because I was really worried that some in the early days someone would take him away from me you know I had this real if I say anything I'm not a good enough mum why am I failing at this I've never failed at anything before and I wasn't of course I wasn't failing um but I didn't I didn't know any better and I was too scared to talk up um so I had some counselling had all different things put in place and actually by the time I got around to my counselling I'd already made some shifts I realized I needed to start doing things for myself of course when everything was getting overwhelming I gave up going to the gym one of the worst things I could have done because that was a bit of time for me um and I just gave up everything for me because i haven't got enough time and it felt like i was wading through treacle um but i realized i had to make a change needed to make a change for me and for him and for family and for work um and had some counseling first time i've had counseling wonderful experience so good i and i've had it again since a couple times because it's wonderful i get some more just talking and just getting it out i mean i don't have it now i have a career coach now um which is fabulous as well and i think just talking to people letting it out is once you once you let it out it's like oh that release well that's all right get it down onto paper now I've got a plan um so that was the first that was the first thing and the first aha moment in my head when I thought I cannot carry on like this changes need to be made um and then I came around to the idea of oh could have a second child because I was adamant I was stopping at one um so it's a four-year age gap between mine but when I came around to having Chloe I was in such a better space because I'd worked out everything and I I had all these ideas of what I would do and what I would do differently. So with Toby, the feeding was really difficult and I had to give up breastfeeding after four weeks. So for months, I was wracked with guilt that I transferred to the bottle. So with Chloe, I thought, right, I'll give it another go. If it doesn't work, we'll go on to the bottle. And I did everything I possibly could, got extra help, didn't work again, onto the bottle, boom, done, moving on. Completely different experience. My regret was that I'd wasted so much time with Toby with the guilt, with Tope, with Chloe. I wasn't going to do that so it was a completely different experience and I also got a coach during that experience and I started blogging and getting my crazy thoughts in my head out there on paper and I felt that was a really brave thing to do because all of a sudden all the things that I was afraid to talk about I thought well hang on a minute if I was if I was feeling these things but I was afraid to talk about them perhaps I'll just get it out there if anyone reads it lovely if they don't doesn't matter it was a thing that I wanted to do and it was lovely just to get it all out get it out onto blog and there was a little bit of traction I'm not the next un-mumsy mum or any of the other famous mum bloggers but it was great to just to get it out there and if I made a difference then fab but It was a real shift in mindset for me going through that whole experience. And then when I went back to work, it was the year that I was turning 40. So again, I think that's another milestone moment in someone's life. So I had all these different things I wanted to do in my 40th year. I had a bucket list of 40 things at 40. I needed to lose weight because I was about three stone overweight. I wanted to do that for me for health reasons, not because of the way I looked or anyone said I should. I was turning 40. I was going to get my career back on track. And the first six months of the year panned out really well. So I lost three stone with Slimming World, which was brilliant. Had my 40th birthday. I really felt that I was finding myself. I knew who I was in my in my 30s. It was about having the children, the career. I was a little bit wobbly, a little bit all over the place. But in my 40s, I really felt that I was starting to know what I was about. what I was doing. And it was going well until I woke up one morning, happened to yawn stretch, just went like this and found a lump underneath my right breast. And I thought, oh, that doesn't feel or look good. And my husband said the same. So I went off to the doctor that day, got a referral, two weeks time. I was told I had breast cancer. And I cannot tell you the fear I felt. In that moment, it was completely out of the blue. There's no history of it in my family. And it was just awful. I can remember that day like it was yesterday. And I just thought, my goodness, I am my kids are going to grow up. Sorry, I still whenever I talk about this, I still get a little bit emotional because it was it was obviously I've come out the other side, you know, pop spoiler, everything wiped out well for me. But it was just the most horrendous moment. ever um and I'm I'm quite matter of fact so one of the first people I phoned was my boss to say that I'd be in on Monday this was the outcome and we do a handover and we get the wheels rolling and I was adamant I was going to carry on working um and I had to send people text messages as well because I told a few friends that I was going to be checked up but they were in different groups of people and I thought oh god this is really unfair because I can't tell certain people and not tell everybody so I just said to people look this is what it is I won't swear because we're on a podcast, but I said a few choice words. I said, but please don't mind your P's and Q's. You know me, I'm a jokey character. We're going to get through this with laughter. I don't want to lose people because I know in difficult situations, you don't know what to say. Then you leave it too long. So then it gets awkward. I said, so come on, business as usual. We're going to carry on. We're going to get a plan. We're going to sort this out and don't get me wrong. I was terrified as well, but I thought, right, no, I'm going to, I'm going to take control of this. I'm going to set the boundaries and the rules. This is how people are going to react. And actually people said they really appreciated that because then they knew where they stood and they knew that they could continue being jokey with me. Don't get me wrong. It was completely serious. It's not a laughing matter to have cancer, but the way I wanted to deal with it, I was giving them permission to laugh about it with me. And that was the humor was what was going to get us through Yeah. so I think because I had done all that work on my mindset I've read loads of self-development books I'd had the coaching I'd had the counselling actually ironically when I get diagnosed with breast cancer physically and mentally I'm in the best shape of my life so the experiences I'd led up to it obviously happened for a reason because then I think that's the reason it wasn't it wasn't an easy process at all by any means I was off work for a year going through chemotherapy I had a lumpectomy and radiotherapy but I think the way that i'd prepared myself and then broke it down had the end goal was to live that it was a very simple goal it was not i was i was not going to die from this and then to like work back with smaller goals so chemotherapy the first lot of goals was 12 weeks weekly um and i brought my friends along i every week i had a different friend with me and we laughed and joked and the nurses said they'd never seen anyone quite like it um and it turned into this really quite comical experience as well and i don't get me wrong i was I was terrified at the start but actually once I got going with the treatment and I knew it was working quite early on so I was really lucky in that respect I was like right okay it's working you're not going to die from this this is hard but you can do it let's break it down week by week every week I took a different friend and I called them the chemo sitters And each week I did like a little mini blog out to my friends. And then each week they tried to outdo the one that went before. So I had bingo on the ward. My friend who's a beautician, one day I was sat there having my nails done on the ward, plugged into the NHS electricity socket. Why not? And each week it just got more and bigger and bigger. And I was sending these little mini blogs. And then that's where the book idea came from. Because to start off with, I was journaling because I find it really cathartic to get my mixed up idea is out of my head down onto paper and also I like to write three things that went well at the end of each day because even if you've had a really difficult day you will even and even if you can't find three things you'll always find one thing that that's gone well that day and for me going for illness it was even if I woke up and got dressed winning that day um and then the little blogs and friends said oh you're funny you should write a book and I thought do you know what I bloody well will I've always wanted to write a book and this because I already had a journal going anyway uh with my thoughts and ideas so it kind of my book is a kind of and there is look up on the bookcase there um it kind of turned into a Bridget Jones style diary but someone going through cancer treatment and first of all I wrote it for me so it was my journey it's been all how I would speak then I thought well I want to capture all the lovely messages from my friends and family. So there's loads of that in there. But then I thought I could actually help people with this. So I made a list of all the things I wish I'd have known from the outset. And I wrote topics about anxiety, fear, um so it kind of takes the reader on a journey from a little bit about me beforehand right through my year of um treatment and then finishing off at the end and it's kind of for for everyone so for someone going through it or for someone trying to support someone going through it but it was during i feel i'm talking a lot should i just keep going keep going i have i have points okay um but what i wanted to say was One of the, I know it's really weird to say the positive things about having breast cancer and going through treatment. There were so many because for the first time in my life, it didn't just slow me down. I had to stop. I had no choice. So I'm in this scenario. I haven't got a choice. I have to have, well, I could have not had treatment, but then I wouldn't be sat here today having this interview. So I knew I had to get through this treatment and I knew I had to slow down in life. And my goodness, it's never before have I had the opportunity because on maternity leave, you don't get to stop. because you're looking after a baby. But in this scenario, Chloe went to nursery, Toby went to school. I had all day, every day to do what, some days I didn't get out of bed very poorly, but other days I would go for a walk, very slow walk around where I lived, or I would go and have cake with a friend or with my mum. It's actually quite exhausting even having cake when you're on chemotherapy, but I soldiered through nonetheless. I could just be my authentic self, which was what was amazing because I was always this perfectionist, people perfectionist, either. Oh, I've committed to that. I must do it. Oh, I don't feel very well. But I've said I'll do it. So I'm still going to do it. People said to me, oh, Emma, if you don't feel very well, just cancel. I cancelled things. Shock, horror. No one cared. I was late to things. Again, no one cared. I was like, hang on a minute. I've been living my life 100 miles an hour trying to please other people. Actually, I'm going to be more picky about who I spend my time with And the projects I work on, because actually the priority is me, my family and my friends, of course, work's important. And it is. And sometimes you do have to sacrifice that for a one off project or whatever. But I completely switched my mindset again. And it's it was a really liberating experience to go through. And thank God, obviously, I've come out the other side, which I'm so grateful for and thank my lucky stars every day. But it taught me so much.

UNKNOWN: 27:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:26

So when it came to lockdown and everyone is losing their mind straight away, I thought, Hang on, I'm trained for this. I'm in the right mindset. I've been isolating. Well, I wasn't isolating, but I've been away from people and being cautious of people for a good seven or eight months before lockdown happened. And also, we can't control this because this is happening to us. A bit like cancer, it was happening to me. I couldn't stop it. Lockdown, we couldn't stop it. But what we could do was react differently and change the way we felt about it. So be cross, feel all the emotions, the anger, be scared. But ultimately, I would say to my kids and my husband, we're in our house, we're safe, we're well, we're lucky. And we're just going to take it day by day. We don't know how this is going to end. But here today, we're safe. So that was kind of my approach. And breathe, Emma. Well, you can breathe for a minute because there's so much in there that I would like to just pick out for people to listen to. Again, I really hope a lot of lawyers, non-lawyers, people perhaps who are going through illness, listen to that and the absolute wisdom that you've shared there. So many things. There's a tear and everything while you're going through that. Bless you.

UNKNOWN: 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:45

There's so much in there that resonates with what I've seen over the last few years. You know, when you shared about your first son and the failure to thrive, I can tick that box. Mum guilt when you can't feed them, I can tick that box. You know, the perfectionist, if you're a lawyer, you tend to be a perfectionist at work, but you don't leave it at the door at work. It comes home with you. So yes, you then get involved in the committees and the councils and the everythings until you reach a certain age and either life throws something at you like it did you or again, chronic stress. and panic attacks for me because life went what the hell are you doing literally what are you doing and and some of the things you talked about there is sort of your you didn't call them that but your sort of coping mechanisms or the things you learn you know actually getting the counseling first of all and then the coaching having someone to talk to about it instead of keeping it all up here which us lawyers think we have to do because otherwise we're a failure or whatever um All of that. Plus, you know, I heard you talk about gratitude. You three things before bed at night, journaling, you know, in my very first workshop I've been running for years. I share three tips with people at the end, which is gratitude, journaling and meditation, stroke mindfulness. Those are the things that I tell people to do to change their life. And just for the reason you said, it doesn't stop bad things happening, but how it leaves you ready to deal with them when they do is just incredible. you know, it's, it's unbelievable. And your experience has shown that as well. And then, as you said, when lockdown came and you were able to deal with that, someone said to me the other day, how do you feel about lockdown looking back or, or would you go through it again? And quite similar to you. And I think it is because I've had sort of a gratitude practice for years. It, There's lots of reasons I wouldn't want to go through it again, like not seeing my family and my sister had her first baby and I didn't meet my niece until she was six months old and all of those sorts of things that were terrible. But actually for us as a family, just being here together and having to stop, like you say, having to stop and being able to spend that time together, I don't think I'd change that.

UNKNOWN: 30:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:52

Yeah, I do. Goodness me, it's easy to look back sometimes, isn't it, with rose tinted glasses and think, oh, it was lovely. We did crafting as a family and every day was lovely. We went and it certainly wasn't that. And actually, another thing I was really fortunate about was I was still on long term sick leave when it first kicked in. So actually, on paper, we should have been in the best scenario yet. Two parents, two children, equal, good ratio there, one-on-one. So my husband would look after Chloe and I would do the homeschooling with Toby. Oh, he's a reluctant learner to put it mildly. So actually I, a lot of kudos to teachers. I could not do that job for any money in the world. So actually it should have been easy, but it was really difficult. But what we did do was actually we would do our schooling during the morning. He went to a very interactive school with live lessons. They switched overnight to virtual and it was amazing. But in the afternoon, We didn't do it because I thought, well, we've done it all morning. We're going to go out. Luckily, I live in a lovely neck of the woods. We went out on our bikes. We did so much. And I thought, well, you're learning here. This is nature. We're out and amongst it. Because there were no cars on the road, it was really safe. So from that perspective, yes, that was lovely. We saved a lot of money because we weren't going anywhere or doing anything. but I really miss being with people. And then when I went back to work, I found it really tricky at first to adjust. I'm a little bit old school. I like paper, sticky notes and highlighters. I'm of that era. So to go, we'd gone to paper light, but to then go to paperless, I was like, oh no, I'm not sure about this. I mean, a couple of years on and it's fine now, but I still really struggle and leave it to our fabulous admin girls because I can't, some of the bits. But then you have to get into a different shift, isn't it? So then when we went down, Was it lockdown number three? I don't know. The one that was the early part of last year. That was very different then because although Chloe had gone back to nursery, Toby was at home. I was back at work and I split my working day. So I started work at half seven, did a bit of work, then went off and did the homeschooling with him because I had to sit and watch the lessons and help him the way the teacher had taught him. So we did that. And then in the afternoon, I'd be back to being a lawyer. He had to fend for himself. And I just remember one day I was on the phone and I was dealing with a suicidal member in this room with my, what was he, seven-year-old next door crying because he could not do his work. And I thought, my goodness, in what world is a woman or man expected to be dealing with this scenario? And it was intense and it was insane. So I could never go back to juggling doing this job and homeschooling. at the same time um but it was a short intense period of time and there was a light at the end of the tunnel um and we got through it of course we got through it you know you you survive 100% of your worst days don't you if you're still here because you've done it so exactly exactly well and and you know I have to say kudos to you we tried the homeschooling at the beginning you know the first two weeks we had a board up and we had a timetable and this is what my husband was going to do this is what I was going to do yeah two weeks later no because we We now discover that certainly one of my children has ADHD. I suspect possibly two and three do as well. And it was just a nightmare. And I just made that decision that home can either become a battleground or it's a safe place and it has to be a safe place. So we did a minimum amount and the grandparents did a lot of Zooms. Grandparents did a lot of Zoom lessons for maths and English. So we felt we were keeping up with the basics. But what I think is interesting about that period and what you said about, you know, obviously your diagnosis and that you had to stop is working with so many lawyers and this type of personality. Interestingly, they don't really stop until they're told. Because we never have, have we? I think we're our own worst enemies. And I think we're very good at giving out the advice. And I hear myself, even speaking to colleagues as well, I can hear myself giving them the advice to slow down, take a break. And I don't follow it. So, yeah, it took that to really make me stop and think, hang on a minute. And it's easy to slip back into it, isn't it? When you have a life changing experience, whether it's the treatment or going through a pandemic and then things start returning to normal. It is really easy to get sucked into your old ways. But I know my I start slurring my words when I when I start getting tired and I'll start mixing them up and I'll start becoming more muddled. And I know that that to me is my my. you know, my trigger. And I know that I need to slow it up a little bit. But however busy I am, I still go to the gym a couple nights a week just for my release to have my downtime. You know, what I find really tricky sometimes being in this room, which is obviously my home, going out that door and then I mum on the other side of that door. And so one of the negatives, lots of positives came out of lockdown, the flexibility, the hybrid working, just the way we work a lot quicker. I'm a lot more productive working at home. I can get my head down. I'm very distracted in an open office, not from wanting to talk to everybody every five minutes, but from the general noise. So I have to put headphones on. But I did miss the commute. Even though mine was small, it was still the switch off from lawyer mode into mum mode. So I do find that difficult sometimes to just want to open that door. Oh, there's some washing to do now. No, no, it's lawyer mode at the moment. Not, you know, doing your washing. So I do find that tricky sometimes. But I miss people as well. I like... And this is all good, virtual meetings, but you learn so much in the office as well. And if someone's having a difficult conversation, I'd be one of the first to go up afterwards. Oh, are you all right? Or when you're at home, you can feel quite isolated. You might not necessarily reach out to a colleague and then it's in your house as well, isn't it, Liam?

UNKNOWN: 36:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:51

the stress of what's happening yes yeah it's very true and I do I really think that we take whether we're introverted or extroverted I think we do take energy from other people and I think and motivation certainly you know my motivation comes from spending time with other people and talking to them and bouncing ideas around and things and I think being on your own all of that becomes a lot harder yeah it knocked my confidence a bit if I'm honest and I also started second guessing myself because I'd been at home for so long I thought oh goodness Is that the right course? It's the right advice. And then so I'd speak to a colleague. And whereas when you're in the office, you hear new things as well, don't you think? Oh, that's a good tactic. I'll try that next time. And you see, you do lose that working from home. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. I spend a lot of time talking to teams and firms about the whole hybrid world. And yes, it's great. And yes, it's got a lot of positives, but we still need that human connection a certain amount of time in the week, I think. Yeah. It's so important. So we've talked about so many things. It's just been brilliant. If I was to ask you, what do you think is your sort of biggest learning or biggest point you would like to get across to others? Now, whether that's from the lot lockdown experience or your health journey it doesn't you know any would be would be very welcome. Yeah, I think it is just, I mean, I know you talk a lot about this and I can't wait to get started on your book, actually, because I have got it now. But to just be your authentic self and just be you, there will be a fit for you somewhere. Like I say, I tried different places and before I found, you know, where I work now, Royal College of Nursing, that's where I've been for 11 years now. I'm accepted for who I am with silence. I now sit on the professional board. They accept me. who I am and like I said I was on the old style council for three years came off and then after I'd gone through treatment I was approached again and asked might I like to consider coming back on so I was really flattered by that because I thought well I must have made a good enough impression the first time around to be asked to come back but I needed to know what changed in terms and it's all virtual so that completely cut out the traveling which made things a lot more accessible So what I would say is just be true to yourself because in this role as vice president, I've been doing it for four months, four, five months now. I don't know, time flies, doesn't it, when you're having fun. But I was told, here's your remit, member engagement, go and speak to members. So that's what I've been doing. And in that time, I've spoken to so many people who've wanted to engage with me and have said about the firms that they're working now and they've now found their forever legal home, if you like to use the phrase, or they're really appreciative of the support. So I don't stick if you're in your first place second place or third place if things aren't going well there for you then you deserve more and you deserve to be able to be your true self and you will find a shoe that fits but maybe you need you need to look somewhere else for that and I now I can just be myself it's it's less exhausting as well because it and it's very liberating you should just if you do have a bubbly character I see that as a good thing people can relate to me and And I would just say, be your true authentic self. Oh, thank you. And an excellent point you made about, you know, if you don't feel you can be yourself in where you are, then do look for something else. Now, yes, that doesn't mean you're going to immediately be able to move. You know, the market's been very employee friendly until now. It might be going into a period where it's not. But you never have to stay anywhere forever. And even if you've got to stay for a while, that's okay. But no, it's not forever. And do the things that you've said, Emma, the things you need to look after yourself, because that's how we keep going. You know, whether it's the gym for you or a walk or nature, whether it's the journaling, the gratitude, whether it's speaking to a coach or a counsellor or somebody, find what you need. Yeah. And I think that's really important. I mean, I know cringy now, some people don't like phrases and inspirational quotes, but I quite like them. And one of the ones that really helped me get through a lot of things was if you don't like it change it so that's the first thing but then if you can't change it change the way you feel about it so in terms of your work if you don't like it you do have the power to change it okay you might not be able to do it immediately but you can look you can see what else is out there and whilst you do it you can you're the author of your own fortune aren't you you're the one who has to make the change notice that you need to make it and then can go out and look but in the meantime I accept it's not quite as easy just to jog off and work somewhere else but you can change the way you feel about it so you're never going to change the way a certain person acts or or is that you can change how you feel when when they fire off one of their emails which doesn't even start with hello good morning and go straight in for i want you to do this and think okay right fine that's them i'm And then I would deliberately respond with, dear so-and-so, hello, how are you? Thank you. You've had a wonderful weekend. Kill them with kindness is what I say. But you do have control over a lot more than what you think. Oh, yes. Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. It's like we're two sides of the same coin. I love this. So where could people get hold of a copy of your book? oh okay so they can get hold of one directly from me um because i i have special limited edition copies that i've got pictures in the middle which um so i've got those so they can get hold of them directly from myself um or from amazon get everything on amazon but they don't have the pictures on there oh so i would suggest that anybody um and i will put a link in the show notes as well but i would suggest that anybody that wants to uh connects with you on linkedin that's probably a good place to be this way um and whether they are interested in or want to know more about Silex or talk to you about that. I think you'd be open to that potential. Oh, anything. Yes. Yeah. I will talk about Silex until the cows. Right. Message me. Any Silex listeners or people who, you know, maybe you employ or are looking to employ people who've gone through the Silex route. I'm sure Emma would be a wonderful source of information about that as well. And yes, if you're going through a period of ill health or your friends or people you care about are, then I think this book sounds absolutely amazing. amazing i'm gonna have to get hold of a copy um so yeah thank you so much emma and i look forward to having a chat um probably in the new year more about the silex route but i've really enjoyed talking to you thank you thank you so much and um thank you for all the amazing work that you're doing as well i look forward to uh seeing you in person at the the women in law event next year oh thank you emma thank you thanks hannah