Interview with Texas PI Attorney Lesley Holloway on law, life, parenthood and mentoring

What a pleasure it was to speak with Lesley about her experiences of running a PI practice during and post lockdown and how they came out "fighting" for their clients when the courts reopened.

We also discussed perceived differences between the profession in the UK and US (and no most of us UK lawyers don't take 8 weeks holiday and finish at 2pm as a rule :-))

To watch the video version, please visit https://youtu.be/OsX-jglWb4o

You can find out more about Lesley here https://www.lesleyholloway.com

About your host, Hannah Beko

Podcast host Hannah Beko is a lawyer coach and corporate trainer for the legal profession focusing on leadership skills and mental health and wellbeing in law firms.

Hannah has also created the Build Your Legal Business Podcast which you can find here https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast...

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Do connect with Hannah on Linkedin here https://linkedin.com/in/hannahbeko/ or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.

You can also find Hannah's bestselling book, "The Authentic Lawyer, How to Create More Success in Your Practice and More Balance in Your Life" on Amazon and Kindle.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:04

Hello and welcome to another episode of The Law in Lockdown and Beyond. And today I'm really delighted to welcome Leslie Holloway, who is a US attorney. And she is joining us for what she says is her first international podcast appearance. So we're really excited to have her join us. And Leslie, I'm going to hand over to you to say a little bit more about you and what you do, because I know a bit like me, you wear lots of different hats and some days you might want to be one thing and another day you might want to be something else. So as we come to the end of 2023, going into 24, how would you like to introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_02: 0:42

Okay, well, first and foremost, I am a mom of two wonderful little boys. They are seven and nine. So we are in the thick of little boyhood right now. I also am a managing partner at a large personal injury firm here in the Dallas area. For people that don't know, the Dallas area is pretty large. It's encompassing of Dallas and Fort Worth and many other cities. So we handle strictly personal injury claims here. These are all legal claims based in negligence. I have a team of of almost, let's see, 12 attorneys. And then we have a very large support staff. So I manage about 50 people directly. And then we have a firm size of about 100 people total. So it's fairly large. Yeah, but I... I mean, I guess I'm a lawyer and mom first and foremost, but some of my past endeavors included acting. I went to school for acting in college and got my degree in that before going to law school. So I... I still was very involved up until I had children in a scholarship to do acting that raised money for potential law students. And so I have, yes, several interests like most people. But lawyer and mom, first and foremost, I think those are my

SPEAKER_01: 2:14

two.

UNKNOWN: 2:15

Oh.

SPEAKER_00: 2:15

You know, I really like that. And because I'd read up a little bit about you and listened to one or two podcasts you'd been on before and picked up so many things. I thought, oh, I must ask Leslie about this. I must ask her about that. And I will do that in a minute. But it's interesting because I know one of my junior lawyers just posted on LinkedIn this morning about how she'd been introduced on something as a TEDx speaker. Now, I'm very proud of her that she did her TEDx talk a while ago, but she particularly noticed that they introduced her as a TEDx speaker and not as a lawyer. And I'm someone who's personally always happy to be introduced as anything but a lawyer because, you know, it feels like I've done that for a lot of years. And it's like there's all these other things I do. And surely they're really interesting as well. But it's funny because she's quite recently qualified and obviously worked really hard towards it. She wanted to see that lawyer there. But it's such a part of our I don't know if you think this, but the title is such a part of our identity sometimes, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 3:13

Oh, yeah, I think so. And particularly when you've been doing it for so long. Well, I think in the beginning, you're right. You've worked so hard. You do want that recognition, you know, because you want that that attached to your name. And then, you know, you put in so much time into a career. I think it does become part of your identity after a while. I mean, I've been doing personal injury for 15 years now. So, yeah. And I've been with my same firm for 15 years, which I feel like is not something people do anymore, really. There's a lot more movement in the legal field, at least here in the United States. People don't get with the firm and just stay there forever anymore. But yeah, yeah, it definitely becomes part of your identity.

SPEAKER_00: 4:00

So many things I could talk to you about, so many things. But I thought to stay in line with the origins of the podcast, I was just explaining to you, we started in lockdown and it was very much sort of a diary of the law through lockdown. So to start us off, it would be great to hear from you. How has your practice changed? How has what you do changed sort of post-pandemic, do you think?

SPEAKER_02: 4:26

Well, so the pandemic was really, It was huge for us because a lot of what drives resolution in personal injury cases is having a trial date. So going to trial is what prompts a lot of the insurance companies to say, okay, let's try to resolve this. Well, when you are on lockdown for 18 months and we didn't have any trials going, there's not that same pressure to resolve. So, you know, people went home. A lot of the insurance companies went entirely remote and they were just sort of sitting on their hands because there was no trial pressure. So one thing I did that was a little different and it was sort of controversial at the time is that once the required lockdown time period had passed, I made my staff come back to the office right away. I didn't wait. any longer because when it's personal injury, we are the driving force. I always say the plaintiff's lawyers are the gas and the defense is the brakes. We are trying to push it forward and push it forward. And so I brought everyone back. I mean, we were at home just a couple of months and I started bringing people back with the right protocols. We had safety measures. We had distancing in the office and all of that, but I wanted to be ready to go back to trial as soon as possible. And I didn't want people saying, oh, well, my paralegal's here and I'm there and I can't get a trial notebook. And I didn't want all the excuses that sort of come along with the fact that we're remote and we can't be just ready to run down to the courthouse. And so for us, I think that... doing that was ultimately a really good thing because when the courts did open back up, they were very ready to be aggressive about getting the cases back to trial. And we were ready to go. We were, we're in the office. We're ready. We've got our trial notebooks. We're ready to come down and try this case. And, and the defense counsel was sort of put on the back foot and they were, well, we're not ready. We, you know, we can't do that. And the judges, the judges said, we don't care. We're ready. Like we, we have a huge backlog that we need to address. And so So it ultimately led to a lot of cases resolving very, very quickly post, you know, post pandemic or post, you know, lockdown. And so for us, that was really, you know, that was a really good thing. And I think what's interesting now is after some time has passed, you know, everybody was sort of in the thick of it. And now after some time has passed, I think that, yeah, I don't see a whole lot of difference anymore. I mean, people have sort of gone back to their normal lives as they were before the pandemic. You know, it's one of these things that sort of like, if you have children, it's like, you have to forget how difficult it is to have a child because you do it again. You ultimately end up doing it again, right? You have a little bit of amnesia. And so I think that's sort of how the world is becoming. You know, they sort of forget these things. Now, I will say that I do think some people have, you know, taken to heart time with family as more important than just working and grinding all the time. And I do think that's a good thing. I mean, I lost three people very significant to me, very important to me in 2020. And so I think that, you know, if anything came of it, I think people do sort of value, and I value as a boss, as, you know, leader of this firm, I do value the work life. balance um i want people to to spend that time with their families because it's important

SPEAKER_00: 8:12

that i must admit that was um all through the pandemic whenever i was talking to anybody about it i said that's what i hope comes out of it for for the legal profession is a not a re-understanding of our values because i think our values were probably all the same it probably always was family first but i think we'd forgot Um, a bit like you were saying, you know, you have one child and think I'll never do it again. And then a bit later you decide that you will. Um, yes, I think that that's what I'd hoped for was that we'd remember how important, yeah, our health and our families and our lives are outside of just work. Um, yes, we could be in danger of going back maybe. A

SPEAKER_02: 8:52

little bit. I mean, I think that that just happens with time, you know, time just makes you sort of forget. Um, But I do clearly remember how nice it was not to be working and then also running to someone's birthday party and running to the sports events. I mean, it was just sort of nice to spend this year with my family where I came home and we were all together and we didn't have a place to be on the weekends. We, you know, ordered in a lot and spent a lot of time together. But I look back on that with... with a lot of fondness because I just think that there will never be another time like that. And I was very fortunate to have that with my, my children when they were so small.

SPEAKER_00: 9:38

Yes, I know my eldest son, I've got three boys, and my eldest son has always said he quite enjoyed lockdown because, yes, he didn't have to go anywhere or do anything and all the family was together. So, yes, it's strange. We'll all have different memories. But that actually leads me on to something. I know I've seen that you talk frequently about mentoring and particularly women and motherhood and being professional and things like that. So I wonder, have you seen a difference now with parents heard generally in terms of fathers becoming more involved since the pandemic, because suddenly they saw what it was like to have tea with their children and be involved with their children, perhaps in a way that they hadn't been before?

SPEAKER_02: 10:20

Well, you know, I think that that. I think that's a difficult question here, particularly in the United States. I think culturally we are still very much sort of rooted in some antiquated ideas of mother being all things, whether she's working or not. And that's one of the things that I really, talk about in my own marriage. It's one of the things I talk to about with young women lawyers, especially as they're sort of embarking on their career and family and sort of making these choices. Would it be wonderful to have fathers that were more involved? Yeah, of course. But do here, at least, is mom still the default parent for most everything? Yeah, I think so. Even if she is working a full-time job, even if she's, you know, putting in, you know, 50, 60 hours. I mean, this was, um, it's just, and by default, I mean, the one who's thinking of, okay, did I RSVP to this birthday party? Did I order a present for the child? Did I, all these little things, not to say that, you know, men haven't stepped up. I think, I think there probably was some of that awakening, like, oh, I really do enjoy being a little bit more involved. Um, But at the same time, I think here it still tends to be mom as default parent most

SPEAKER_00: 11:53

of the time. I think that I'm sure that's true here. I know. I've seen a lot of men sort of move towards perhaps spending a little bit less time in the office and a bit more time at home, which is nice. But I think for most families, the default parent, as you say, the one who's meant to organise the birthday presents and say yes to these things and know that the diaries and the calendars is still mum. Right. Regardless, as you say, of whether they're full time and working all the hours and those sorts of things as well.

SPEAKER_02: 12:23

Yeah. And that's really, really hard for women. You know, there's a lot of talk, I think, in social media about the mental load and I'm glad it's being talked about because there is a different mental load for women than men. You know, my husband called me and I was driving to work one day and he said, oh, there's something, there's something going on with the dog. And, you know, so immediately my, my mind is like, what do I have this week? How can I get an appointment at the vet? What am I going to do to, to get her there. You know, like I just, I start automatically sort of going into this problem solving mode and I'm, you know, and he's just like, oh, I don't think it's that big of a deal. I'm like, what, why call me? Right. To tell me, because I automatically feel like I need to solve a problem. Um, And he's just like, oh, well, I just wanted to talk about it, which is totally fine. But I just think as women, this is sort of what happens. If there's a problem, we're just automatically going into, okay, what do I need to do to start the problem solving of this? So yeah, I think the mental load is a lot heavier for women.

UNKNOWN: 13:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 13:34

Yeah, I think it is something that I've been talking about just this week with my husband and separately with one of my business partners, because it's only although my husband has been much more involved with the children since we had our third and I run businesses. And so it made sense that he was more involved. But it's in the last few months because I've literally not been able to be at home because my sister was poorly and she had some very young children. So I literally needed to be there with her. And my husband has said, you know, As much as I thought I did at home, I didn't realise how much you still did because when you were not here doing any of it, you realised how much there was. So it is, and you're right, it is just what we carry in our heads. It's not the practical, do we actually get the shopping or cook the tea? It's what we carry in our heads, isn't it? It's huge.

SPEAKER_02: 14:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:26

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So do you, in your sort of the mentoring that you do, is that mainly with other attorneys and what sort of things do they, what challenges do they come to you with, do you see at the moment?

SPEAKER_02: 14:40

So I have an open door policy at my firm because I feel like there's a lot of situations where attorneys get hired, particularly young attorneys, and the more senior members are sort of like, well, you went to law school, so just figure it out. And they just sort of stick them in a room and here's some books and problem solve this on your own. And I just don't like that. I don't want to answer all questions for a new attorney. I want them to try to come up with solutions on their own, but I want to be that sounding board for them that says, okay, am I on the right track? So that's part of it is just having that ability to come in and talk to me whenever they sort of have an issue that they're going through. The other thing is that I think, you know, talking to them about the work-life balance, about what is really important. I always say, one of the things that I always say to young attorneys is that just remember, no one puts on a gravestone, they were a really great attorney. They always put loving husband, loving wife, you know, loving sister, mother, whatever. So it's really about the relationships that you have outside of work. And I think that also really helps with the stress. Being a litigator here is very stressful. There's a lot of moving parts. And so I think when you go home at the end of the day, whether you have a significant other, whether you have children, whether you have just good friends, I think all of that is so important to cultivate to keep you sane and to keep you from being so stressed, just to keep you a happier human being, so to speak.

UNKNOWN: 16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 16:30

So it's really

SPEAKER_02: 16:32

about talking to them about that as well, you know. Oh,

SPEAKER_00: 16:37

so I couldn't agree with you more. Is that, do you think that's different? Because obviously you're, you know, with being head of your firm, you're in that leadership role as well as mentor, et cetera. Do you think leadership has changed within law or needs to change? Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02: 16:55

I think that it has changed some, but I think that it could change more. Um, I think there is still a lot of culture out there that, um, prizes the 70, 80 hour work week. And we don't do billable hours. That's the nice thing in personal injury. We work on a contingency fee. So it's not about logging so many hours. And I have a young man who came from a bankruptcy firm where it was very a lot of pressure on them. I mean, he said the managing partner there would be there till four in the morning and would just sleep there. And, you know, I said right away when I took over as managing partner that I was not going to do that. That was not going to happen. Have I put in a lot of hours? Yes. Have I worked, you know, at 11, 12 at night from home after my kids are in bed? Yes, I have. But at the same time, I think that I I really try to protect my younger attorneys from that. I grew up sort of, or I sort of came about as a lawyer in a different time when it was prized to work harder and, and show that you were putting in the long hours. And I tell them now that, um, you know, that's not my expectation. My expectation is to get the work done, but it is not just to have FaceTime up at the office to say, look, here I am at eight o'clock. Isn't this impressive? I don't want that for anybody. I want people to go home to their families. And I think, so I think the legal world still needs more of that needs more of, um, more of the okay we don't have to be here until midnight

SPEAKER_00: 18:47

yeah well isn't that funny because because obviously all the way across over here it was very similar experiences for me because I think there's only a couple of years between us I'm 17 years qualified so similar and yes in the day it was oh I stayed I stayed up till midnight oh I stayed up till two oh I stayed here till three you know it was a competition and how many pizza boxes were still in the meeting rooms you know and it really was a competition and I think maybe it comes with age I don't know and or stress levels and or yes being a parent as well and having that on top of it that you realize actually it's not about the hours you put in it's the quality of the work that you can do so the longer you sit there and the more exhausted you are you're not going to be producing good quality work and it's going to take you four times longer to get there than right to have that downtime and look after yourself as well it's it I guess maybe to us, it seems more obvious now, but in the beginning, I don't think it

SPEAKER_02: 19:42

is. You know, I think this is an interesting thing culturally because also because when I was listening to your podcast before you were talking about that and my impression, and I think a lot of impression that Americans have of people from across the pond is that their life is much more leisurely. than Americans. Like Americans are really grinding it out, you know, and we're just like workhorses. And, you know, so I imagine attorneys over there like, oh, well, it's two o'clock and now it's time for our tea and we're going to take a nice, like, take a nice long break. And, oh, what are you doing for holiday? And, oh, I'll be gone for eight weeks to, you know, wherever. But this is the sort of, this is sort of the impression when, yeah, I don't know if you, if you've ever seen it, there's a little meme that was on social media here. And it's like, you know, Europeans, their out of office email is like, I'm, you know, gone on holiday for eight weeks, I'll get back to you when I'm back in the office. And an American's out of office is like, I'm having heart surgery, I'll be unavailable between two and four, but you can reach me at 5pm. It's just like, this idea of this American mentality about, you know, sort of just grinding all the time, you know, work, work, work, versus what we see is a different sort of lifestyle, I think, from people elsewhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:06

No, no. That's interesting. From those two out of offices, I see far more of the second. Really? Okay. Yes. I'm thinking even of a family lawyer I know. Whenever I send her an email, I get this really long response back saying, I'm in court this day. I'm doing this this day. I'm doing this this day. If it's urgent, here's my personal mobile number.

SPEAKER_02: 21:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 21:26

Yeah.

UNKNOWN: 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:27

Yeah, I know a family lawyer like that here in the States. She's available 24-7, I think, which is, I guess, maybe the nature of family law, but that's interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:40

Yeah, it is. That's not I mean, we do have it. I'm sure just just as I've spoken to people in the States, I understand there is as well a huge range of the very big law firms, of course, with extremely long hours and beds locally, if not there, etc. And then other firms that are very different. So we do have. The whole broad range. But the problem that we have that is a mindset one, I suspect, is the same all across the board, which is I must always be there for my clients and I can never let them down. So, yes, even if they want me at 10 o'clock at night, I'll be there is the mentality, which is difficult to break.

SPEAKER_02: 22:16

Yeah. Well, I think one of the things we have done, I will say that when you asked earlier about what had changed, we have some boundaries with our clients. We're available eight to five. And I've even had to set boundaries with the court. We had some courts that were trying to call us to trial at 7.30 at night. And I emailed the court coordinator and I said, listen, we are here from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. If you call us anytime, we will be there. But the expectation that you can call us at 7.30 at night when people are at home with their families, that's just not realistic. And so I have set those boundaries with people. And with clients, you can't just walk in the door and demand to see your attorney. We have a very busy full schedule. So we very politely say, we're happy to make you an appointment. But you don't go into your doctor's office and just demand to see your doctor. So the idea that a client... can do that I think it's a little ridiculous

SPEAKER_00: 23:16

this is this is what I keep saying to people I keep saying you know if it was your heart surgeon or your architect or some other you know professional person who studied a long time just like we did to get to where they are Would you expect to be able to phone them and that they'd answer their phone or they'd be available to see you, as you say, that day? No, you wouldn't because you think that can't be a very good heart surgeon or a very good architect if they're sitting around waiting to answer my call. But they think it's different with lawyers. I think, no, if you're good, you're busy. They need to wait.

SPEAKER_02: 23:50

Right, right. We've definitely set that boundary. And I think that's a good thing. Yeah, you can't just be on call on demand all the time. My lawyers are doing depositions, mediations, hearings, they're in trial. They're just not available all the time. So I think making that clear to clients, like we will get back to you, but you can't expect it to be within minutes or hours.

SPEAKER_00: 24:19

Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. Boundaries, very, very important. Couldn't agree more. So I'll say that there was so many other things I could talk to you about. Maybe we'll have to do this again another day. But yeah, thank you so much. I'm just thinking of a good note to end it on. You know, as this year almost comes to an end and we start 2024, what's 2024 look like for you? What are you looking forward to or what's going to be different?

SPEAKER_02: 24:48

Wow, that's, that's a great question. And I wish I had really thought about that before. But you know, at the end of the year, you're always sort of trying to close up the year and sort of end strong, I feel like and, you know, I think as I get older, though, I always sort of want to reassess my priorities again, and just make sure that I mean, it's very important for me to show up for my children, for all of their their things. And I think just in general, showing up for the people in your life. is very important. When my dad passed in 2020, the friends that drove from hours away to come and just show up and be there, I'll never forget that. It meant so much to me. And so I feel that whatever highs or lows the year is going to bring, because ultimately there will be both, just making sure that you're showing up for the people that you care about, I think, is something I always like to keep at the front of my heart. And then I always have goals to lofty goals to make sure I leave work a little bit earlier. Sometimes I will catch myself there till, you know, six o'clock or so. And, and I just, you know, getting home just a little bit earlier to spend a little more time with my kids. I think that's going to be one of the goals this year. I, I, I started learning Spanish and French this year. So I want to continue with those and hopefully get more fluent in 2024. So those are a few things on the top of my mind, I think, in the coming year. But I think ultimately just being... I love this Greek word. It's eudaimonia, and it just means human flourishing. It's kind of a word for happiness, but a little bit more active. And so I think as long as we're working on ourselves, you know, just kind of constantly striving to just do a little bit better, not a lot, not big, huge improvements, but I think just little, little things that you can do every day. I think that's good. And that's what I try to focus on.

SPEAKER_00: 27:00

Ooh, that's eerily similar to myself because I trained some lawyers on many different things, but actually with... what's happened the last few months family-wise for me and thinking about what's really important for next year, I've thought it's those small things. It's the small things that make a difference. And that's what I want to focus on as well next year. So yes, I agree with you. I like that. Thank you so much, Leslie. I've really enjoyed our conversation.

SPEAKER_02: 27:30

Me too. This was great. Thank you for my first international

SPEAKER_00: 27:34

interview. Well, it's been a pleasure to have you and I'll make sure people can... find out where you are and I've got your website and everything I can, I can put in the show notes. And are you on LinkedIn as well? We should connect.

SPEAKER_02: 27:47

I am. I am on LinkedIn. Yes. Yes, I am. We will do that again. Yeah. Thank you.