The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
A series of conversations with those in the legal profession navigating the ups and downs of the law during and after lockdown. How has this changed the profession as we've emerged from the global pandemic?
The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
Interview with Holly Mieville-Hawkins, Court of Protection Partner and a person centred, solution focused, hypnotherapist
Holly Mieville-Hawkins is a Court of Protection Partner at Anthony Gold. Passionate about all things around deputyships, attorneyships, protecting the vulnerable, mental capacity and Court of Protection.
Following her own life experiences, Holly decided to train as a person centred, solution focused hypnotherapist. We had a lot to discuss in our interview!
You can connect with Holly on LinkedIn here: Holly Mieville-Hawkins TEP | LinkedIn
You can access Holly's work through esse-therapy here:
https://www.esse-therapy.co.uk/blog/why-mindful-breathing-helps-reduce-stress
https://www.esse-therapy.co.uk/client-journey-breakthrough
https://www.linkedin.com/company/esse-therapy/
About your host, Hannah Beko
Podcast host Hannah Beko is a lawyer, author, coach, corporate trainer and speaker focusing on leadership skills and mental health and wellbeing.
If you are a legal professional, please feel free to join our free Facebook Group for networking, tips and support - Legally Speaking, a group for the legal profession https://bit.ly/fblawyers
Do connect with Hannah on Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannahbeko or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk for blogs and resources to support legal professionals.
You can also find Hannah's bestselling book, "The Authentic Lawyer, How to Create More Success in Your Practice and More Balance in Your Life" on Amazon and Kindle.
Join us for an upcoming event here - https://hannahbeko.eventbrite.com
Hello everyone and welcome to a new episode of the Law in Lockdown and Beyond podcast. I wonder if after five years, maybe I need to think about changing the name. Who knows? We will see. But today I'm really looking forward to speaking with Holly. Holly Mieville-Hawkins, and I hope I have pronounced that right and she will let me know if not. Holly is a 15 year experience solicitor in court of protection work, mental health capacity, that sort of thing. And she's also recently made a move to work as a therapist particularly with busy professionals on burnout, stress, anxiety. And so I'm sure you can imagine why I was so keen to speak to her. So Holly, welcome and come and tell us more about you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, Hannah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today. And so as soon as I qualified, I haven't been stalking you, I promise. It's not a stalking. But you have been very present on my LinkedIn menu of things going on. I don't know what you call it. My feed, I think, is the word. So that's about five years now. And sort of like... Your voice and your name and your message have just sort of been there, percolating in my mind for the last sort of couple of years. And they got to a point that I just thought, it wasn't all you, Hannah Doe, I know other things happening in my life too. I just thought, do you know what? I've just got to be more authentic. I've just got to be me. There are no rules saying you can't be a lawyer and a therapist at the same time. So why don't I just go for that and see what happens and just be brave, be bold, be strong. And so I just sort of went for it. And yeah, so here I am with both hats on, which is a very exciting place to be. So thank you for having
SPEAKER_01:me. No, it's really exciting. And actually, before we started recording, you were just saying how it does fit so seamlessly, you particularly that your legal work is based around mental health and those with challenges. And I see from your LinkedIn profile, you talk about supporting the vulnerable and things like that. So in some ways, I can see how it's quite a natural progression. But what do you think inspired you to take that leap to not just be a lawyer with all of the work that you were doing there, but to think about therapy as well?
SPEAKER_00:It's been a journey, like with everything. There's never like a one moment sort of watershed time, I don't think, that says this is the change. Well, I think some people have that where they just wake up and the scales fall from the rise and they're like, I need to do X. Whereas for me, it was very much a journey of sort of self-discovery and... personal growth which just sounds really hippy drippy I do understand that so I mean I guess the journey started eight years ago nearly nine years ago on the 4th of April 2016 when my brother had a severe brain injury in a car crash and I suddenly from being a court of protection solicitor on the professional side of the fence, sitting there and trying to work out best interest decisions for families that I was representing and sort of holding their hand through sort of recovery of a brain injury of a loved one, I was suddenly on the family side of the fence and having to argue for my loved ones to get the care that they needed and to sort of be faced with that reality that my brother, the person closest to me in the whole world, has a brain injury that's lifelong and things will never be the same as what they were before and so I was supporting my parents through that. And so it was a very stark awakening as to the deep impact of the work that I was doing as a professional but also the gulf almost that existed between what families were experiencing and what I was experiencing as a lawyer. And there was just a huge difference between the two realities. And in a weird way, it's made me a much better lawyer to know what's on the other side of that fence, but also it made it incredibly hard to do my job for really quite a long time. And I ended up having to sort of withdraw from doing car crash cases for young men that had prefrontal cortex injuries because there was just too much similarity going on in my home life, my work life. So for the first time in my life, it made me evaluate what I was doing on a day-to-day basis in terms of my work and actually taking a critical eye to it in terms of the impact it was having on me because before I went into law to be a mental capacity lawyer I found out about mental capacity law and was like that's all I need to do in my life that's it I felt drawn to it I did a philosophy of mind degree it's all I've ever wanted to do is work with people that have sort of nuances and sort of I'd say just differences in the way that their mind works and look at how those differences impact the way that they interact with others in the world It's just been my fascination. And so for the first time after Wheels Crash, I had to think, God, actually, this is having an impact on me. And it's the first time in my life that I started putting me first. And I think a lot of people put... the views that others have of them and what other people might think about what they're doing first. And that's particularly case, I'd become a mum quite recently before that. And I was just so used to putting others first and what my parents thought and how other people thought. And I suddenly started thinking, God, I've got to protect me a little bit here. So I sort of vaguely changed the work I was doing and started moving towards do more contentious work, more litigious work about best interest decisions and care decisions and also elder law and care planning and that sort of thing, slightly moving away from the road traffic accident cases. And I was doing fine. I had another baby and then lockdown happened and I... I just fell out of my tree. There's just no other way of describing it. I had just a full mental breakdown. I remember it very vividly, 6th of June, 2020. It's that first year of lockdown and it was my daughter's second birthday. It was her birthday, her actual birthday party. And I just said to my husband in the middle of the afternoon, I feel really weird. And he was like, well, it's just lots of people over. You're probably being a bit overwhelmed. Like, I never get ill. Like, I'm just one of those people. I just plough through life. And by the evening, I was like, I couldn't even sit on the sofa to watch. I decided to watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I don't know why. vivid I'd put it on I'd never watched it I had it since I was like a child I was like I can't even watch this I need I need to go to bed it's about 6 p.m and I he was like that's cool just do it fine in the morning so I went to bed and I just wasn't okay and I wasn't okay for weeks I could barely get out of bed I thought I I'd had sort of like a form of catatonia where you where you can't move like you just feel completely sluggish and that happened to me in the immediate aftermath of Will's accident and it felt very familiar and And I thought, oh, this is really, really weird. I'll be fine. And I went to the doctor. He signed me up two weeks. And he was like, you'll be fine. You're just exhausted. You'll just burn out. You'll be fine. And so I just put two, three weeks in. And my husband said, do you think you need to, I don't know, maybe like see a counsellor? And I was like, there's nothing wrong with me. I don't need to see a counsellor. I'll be fine. I'll do some dog walks. I'll be fine. And so lo and behold, like I did see a counsellor. And lo and behold, I had PTSD and very quickly this was diagnosed and I shouldn't laugh, but it was, it was just almost like looking back when it was just so obvious. I had heart. Now you do what you do. You're like, well, yeah. Unable to engage in the world around me. It's like burn out. Like I had all of the PTSD sort of symptoms, wasn't sleeping and then not sleeping too much. And, and so, yeah, she did this amazing thing on me called rewind therapy, which is basically it's, it's, it's basically, it's a hijacking REM where your eyes sort of move backwards and forwards and basically sort of you visualize yourself in in the worst moment and watch yourself watching it backwards and forwards and then you cut a long story short you watch yourself watching yourself in in the best moment afterwards when you when you feel happy again and it's slightly more complicated than that I've done it in injustice um but it was like it was like a miracle basically it processed the trauma from sort of living in my amygdala, which is where your emotional memory lives in your brain, into my long-term memory. And so I still remember it. It's fine. But I can talk about it without going. And all the emotions coming back up and it's a triggering fight or fight, which is essentially what PTSD is, is that constant triggering a fight or fight because you haven't processed the memories into your long-term memory bank. And I thought, this was in 2020, and I thought, God, if she can do that, why don't i learn to do that like why i'm working with traumatized people all of the time every single person that walks through my door has got trauma in some way shape or form whether they're a parent of an injured child or they've had an injury themselves or they're dealing with a parent that's got dementia or got a stroke because the way you communicate with people that are struggling with trauma and stress and anxiety and hyper vigilance and all the things that come with it it's really quite different to the way you'd communicate with people that aren't experiencing that because of the impact that it's having on their prefrontal cortex and the way that their brain is processing information and their cognition. I thought I'd really love to learn more about this. And so I started learning a bit more about it just in my spare time, read loads of books like the Norman Doidge, the brain that heals itself and loads of Gabrielle Bernstein and listened a lot to Dr. Rangan Chatterjee's live better, feel better, live more, love him, love him. He's the We love him in our house. And then I just thought, you know what? I think I would like to do this more formally, um, and also learn how to do the rewind therapy as well. Um, and so I just, yeah, I did my research, spoke to, um, um, couple of people including the cavallo consultancy so annemarie cavallo so she's just amazing um i'm sure i said her surname wrong um and then yeah i just got a couple of bits of ice and just started my my qualification so now i've got a certificate in psychotherapy and hypnotherapy so i'm qualified hypnotherapist i've set up esther therapy which specializes in you know trauma burnout and anxiety and for professionals and i'm doing that one day a week and I've swapped jobs. So I'm now a partner at Anthony Gold and the Court of Protection team. So I can do that three days a week, make a bit of space for my therapy. And so I'm, they're coming together in a way that I had never anticipated. And you're so right, Hannah, be your authentic self because it just, I'm so, I feel happy and grounded in a way that I haven't really ever felt because I'm being true to me. I don't feel like I'm living a lie. Like I'm embracing both parts of my being, you know? that soul part and the brain part.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I could just sit here. I don't, people don't often speak for that long. And I could just sit here and keep listening to you speak. And then maybe just have a little cry and a little sob at that part. And oh my goodness, there's so many different questions I could have, but I think you're so right. I was listening to different parts of your story and thinking that moment when you, life, again, I don't know if people call it a sliding doors moment or something, but that moment when life really hits you, or you really see it in front of your face, you know, and your brother's accident, I can hear was that for you. Many people know about my sister's illness a few years ago. And That moment, I still remember driving down the motorway. She was in one particular hospital for a few weeks and I'd go on a Sunday, sometimes take the baby, her daughter with me.
SPEAKER_00:Babies in ICUs and babies in
SPEAKER_01:hospitals. Yes, I still get the triggers. I do still get the triggers. I was talking about them in a session yesterday. But I remember very vividly driving down the motorway on the way to see her thinking, I need to make a change now as well. I need to make a pivot. I don't know what that is. And right now is not the time to think about that because we're all in the middle of it. But you know, and I think I wonder if you had that sense as well. You come out of it knowing I'm not going to be the same person on the other side of this. And it does make you question again. I know it sounds twee, but your purpose. Like if I'm here for something, right? Maybe now is the time I have to figure out what this is and do it.
SPEAKER_00:And let that come to you as well. And I think I... um like many lawyers I think I have all of
SPEAKER_01:the answers and we do don't we that's what we get so stressed about it's like right what's my purpose what am I going to do what
SPEAKER_00:am I going to do action plan I need to know what the objective is and work out how to get there in 10 steps and a time scale and know what the cost is going to be personally and professionally and also financially um and that just I found isn't the case actually you've got to let the answer come and you've got to be patient and you've got to let it percolate and I did and I don't know if you found the same but I did a lot of values work I did a lot of work working out what drove me what were my values what got me out of bed in the morning what is it where is I wanted to see me going. And I kept coming back to, I want to live a life in alignment with nature and the world around me. I have a really big environmentalist streak to me and live in harmony with the world. And so give a lot more to it than I take. But I also wanted to give to others, no matter what their circumstances were. And so I didn't want there to be like a big pay wall between me and people being able to receive help from me um which is a big driving factor in setting up my own business like obviously i'd like to get paid clients but i'd also like to do free clients if i can on a pro bono basis or scholarship sort of things um but yeah and so it was that it was that driving factor was giving back and living in harmony and it's hard to find that when you're working in a corporate law environment exclusively yes
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I think it's, I mean, my own personal experience has been as well that it's ever evolving. And I'm no doubt you'll find this with your practice as well. Because, you know, those moments for me a couple of years ago, 18 months ago, whatever it was, it was very much around. there's lots of things I can do, there's lots of ways I can help, but where, if life can turn on a dime or whatever the phrase is, if life can turn this quickly, what is it, where am I most useful or where can I most be used, my skills, my difference? And that's it,
SPEAKER_00:that's it. And it's that unique skill point, I think, that when you're a lawyer, you're very good at solving problems. that actually you've also got a really good analytical brain and you don't have to solve the problems for other people but you can be there and use that i don't know is that almost a level of calm that comes with being a lawyer that when you've been around the block enough times yes there takes a lot to stress me out and it's almost putting that into a different guise into a different realm particularly when you've had that personal experience of trauma as well i think there's a lot to give there's a lot you can give a lot when you've got that like grounding almost in yourself
SPEAKER_01:oh she says wait i've got my feet on my grounding mat today i've got my grounding mat back out again so i've got my feet on that i've got my green behind me which is my i love that yes must get out in fact my mentor did tell me two weeks ago hannah you're gonna go outside every day for 10 minutes and walk in your garden i'm like yes i am Don't tell her I haven't done it yet. I might do it this afternoon
SPEAKER_00:after our... Do plan things. They need looking after. And therefore you have an option, but to get out there. Good plan. I should think about that.
SPEAKER_01:What I wanted to ask you is, what do you think has been either the biggest or some of the biggest challenges? I mean, I can probably guess some of your answers, but what's been some of the biggest challenges in this? I know it's not a full transition. You're going to do the two together. But the transition from thinking of yourself as a career lawyer... that's that's what you you did into this sort of second career as well what what have been the the challenges
SPEAKER_00:of perfectionism which I am a lifelong perfectionist I'm a recovering perfectionist that's what I say like well am I a recovering perfectionist I don't know if I'm yet a recovering perfectionist I know that it's I really need to work on because I really still want to be absolutely the best at everything I do. And I have had to let go of running a team. I did run a team for the last four years and I loved it. I got a huge amount from that, but I've had to let go of that in order to be able to do the therapy business because I don't think it's fair to do that on a three-day-a-week business basis because you're not present enough, I don't think. But at the same time, I don't think that's come at a cost. I think it's come at a huge gain. And a huge gain has been the qualifications that I've got and the different way of seeing. The other huge gain, and I hadn't realised this at all when I first started this journey, was twofold, I guess. And I think I probably connected. Firstly... As lawyers, we're taught to solve everybody's problems all of the time. That's what we're paid for. People come in and they will pay you X amount of money to solve their problems. As a therapist, you absolutely cannot solve other people's problems for them. You have to scaffold them in order that they can solve their own problems. And whilst obviously as a lawyer, I will solve people's legal problems, giving people the emotional space that they need, even within themselves, league the lawyer client context has opened up a huge amount of doors in terms of solving problems because you'll find that clients will often come up with solutions that they don't even know could potentially work as solutions when they're talking and so i've given clients a bit more space and to be present in that in that interview context so it's giving people space um has come out of it, which has been a huge growth point for me. Rather than being like, I'm on the clock, I need to get this done as quickly as I can. And the other thing that's come out, a really positive thing, I guess, opposite of a sacrifice, is that finding therapy really calming. You can't do hypnotherapy with someone if you're stressed. You just can't. You just can't do it. And so I feel really privileged to be in that calmer space. And as a result, I'm a calmer colleague now. a better person to work with, a better lawyer. And so there's been a sacrifice in terms of, yes, I'm never going to be a managing partner of a law firm or the head of the team anymore. But actually the growth that has come from that as a practitioner in law, but also as a person, it's been totally worth it for me because that's where my priorities are. My values aren't being the top of the tree. My values are connection and giving. So it's, It's been about adjusting to that change in value or acknowledging that that's what my values have always been rather than what the values are the society would have expected of me.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And that's, you know, certainly with my coach hat on, that's if there were a formula to some of the work that I do, which I don't. don't say that there is, but I know that we get pushed to do that sometimes in the coaching world. Values is usually one of the starting points if people have never thought about it before, because they're guiding you whether you know it or not in one way or the other. So it's better to be present to it and understand how they are guiding you. But you're right, they help you make those decisions where, and I often say this to people, it's one thing to stop doing the things that you don't want to do, which is hard for perfectionist people pleaser lawyer types. It's one thing to start saying no to those things, but it's even harder to say no to the things that maybe you do want to do yeah there just isn't the time in the day or the energy in our bodies to do it and so how do we make those
SPEAKER_00:decisions and they're difficult decisions I think and that's it I'm not going to be able to know every case in the department whereas I'm quite used to like being the person that has like a bit of sight of everything that's happening and having that acceptance as well I will have the cases that I'm involved with and people will come to a big part of my job at Anthony Gold is to be sort of like a training lawyer and a PSL lawyer for court of protection so they'll come to me for like the really weird and wonderful things but I'm not going to be able to be all over everyone's cases and I've just got to accept that you know it's just that acceptance Yes. Now,
SPEAKER_01:that is a brilliant way that will lead me, hopefully, to segue to talk about some of your work as well now, which is you have had to look at that and say, yes, this is what I've done in the past. I've had the whole oversight. I've maybe been head of the team, but I accept that I'm not going to be doing that anymore so that I can move into this other role. How do you see that that is also what sometimes people that you work with and possibly people that I'm working with as well need to approach looking at the burnout, the stress, the anxiety and the recovery from that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It's a really good question. It's... I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer to it. I think there's just... an acceptance that you're not superwoman and to forgive yourself I remember this moment where I know you won't believe this but I made a mistake at work and uh I'm I'm sure that I'm the only person that's ever had oh yeah nobody ever has no one's ever made a mistake ever No,
SPEAKER_01:insurance companies just rake it in and do nothing with it. In fact, it's a wonder we bother at all.
SPEAKER_00:It wasn't even that bad. It didn't even come to anything. But obviously, I beat myself up about it. I would say you wouldn't believe, but you 100% believe how much I beat myself up about it. Oh, I can imagine. For about three months. It was a terrible reaction. And I couldn't forgive myself. And I realised that everybody else had moved on. I don't know about... two months and like three and a half weeks before I'm still beating myself up. And then it got to the point where I was listening to a podcast about forgiveness and forgiving yourself. And I thought it was like an absolute light bulb moment. I was like, well, yeah, I could just, I could just forgive myself for this and just move on. And it was like absolute realization that actually everybody's fallible and Everybody makes mistakes. Perfection. I don't know if it was you that put on LinkedIn that perfection isn't the only standard. Perfection shouldn't even be a standard. It's not attainable. And, you know, all this fear with the SRA at the moment, it's making burnout so prevalent in our profession. It's awful. Like I used to get heart palpitations when I got the SRA update emails. Because I know lots of people that do, you know, and because so much is happening at the moment, it's not people's fault even, they've just made an honest mistake and it's just awful. You know, the implications of it because of the way that they are at the moment. And I think it's just being kinder to yourself, forgiving yourself, don't expect perfection and put your energy into things that make your heart happy, that make your heart sing. Because if you're working from a values-driven perspective, you're burning out so much less your burnout will be so much less and your prefrontal cortex will be on and you'll be creative you'll be experiencing joy you'll be in the present moment all of those things will come and so you can't you can't find happiness like in my experience from looking at what everyone else wants for you and what you feel like you should be doing you can only find it and doing what drives you and what makes you feel happy. And then you'll avoid the burnout and the stress because it doesn't come in the same way.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly it, isn't it? There's a huge irony to the fact that, yes, there is a lot more worry out there around making mistakes and SRA action. I hear it from so many people. So many people tell me, you know, I'm not going to do this job forever because I can't cope with that level of worry as to what might happen. You know, I'll do it for a while, but then I can't keep doing it. And that makes me sad because I think people who want to stay in and are good, they should stay in for as long as they want to. You know, that should always be choice um but the irony is that the more worried and stressed they are about that the more likely they are to make any mistakes because they're not focused and attention to detail and all those things that
SPEAKER_00:stress does to you and not talking to teammates either because you go into a silo so like the way that the brain works when you're under significant stress is actually it cuts the social uh contact off you end up going into sort of a fight or fight situation which is not talking to other people not relating to other people just get your head down and getting it done and we're all guilty of that but you cut your socialization off and that's what you're more likely to make mistakes because you're talking things through with people you haven't got that that faith and that trust in yourself and then in terms of just techniques to stop it as well if you are in that place breathing is just the answer to everything if you ask me it was the first time that I taught my body what it felt like to not feel stressed and not feel anxious just even if it's just for half a minute That's a huge thing. And you're just lowering your stress levels, lowering your cortisol levels, turning on your parasympathetic nervous system, just getting that, telling your body that the tiger is not there just for a little bit of time can just really start bringing your body down into that calm state and just start reconnecting with those feelings of joy and presence and creativity it takes a long time but if breathing is a great starting point I've just written a blog about it on my website if you'd like to check it out
SPEAKER_01:we'll link that in the show notes so you must send that to send that to me but you're so right and I think I don't know about about you and and I'll be interested um you know for us to have this conversation maybe a year from now and see how you found it within your practice and talking to different people but What I often say whenever I'm training or talking about mental health and wellbeing with professionals is, I know you've had trainings on this. I know you've had workshops and webinars and they've told you about box breathing and they've told you about this. And my guess is that very rarely do you ever use it because unfortunately, those wonderful people who told you about it didn't tell you the science. And the science is exactly as you've said, it's not just a nice little, let's count to 10 and take a few deep breaths. If you're in five Yeah, absolutely. I run a little course, so I'm not in sales
SPEAKER_00:mode, but I just... worth mentioning that I run a little course called the Breakthrough Session, which is basically just two and a half hours. We don't have to become a full therapy client or anything like that, but you can just do a couple of hours with me. And one of the things we do is actually learning about why things work and actually what the impact of stress is on your body because like for me that was a huge moment where i realized why all these people were saying all these things to me go out for a walk in nature around yourself breathe listen to music why do these things work i'm a why person i wanted i wanted to know and the other thing that we do is is well amongst other things is focusing and i and i think we meant i mentioned this to you before which is basically just just reconnecting with your body a little bit, because I know I'm really guilty of just living in my head all of the times. I just like, I'm a brain person, you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm living in my brain, so I'm paid for as my brain. My body is just like, I once said to my therapist, my body is my slave, and I now realise the irony of what I said when I was in the middle of a mental breakdown, was actually, you know, so actually, if you listen to your body and what it's trying to tell you, where you're holding stress, where you're holding anxiety, you can then take steps to stop that feedback loop, because it's all very well and good to working on anxiety in your brain, what things are that are making you anxious, try and get rid of them, try and work out how to change your lifestyle and stuff. But actually, if you've still got that feeling of anxiety, that sort of, oh, that gnawing, clawing, mine lives just below my rib cage, that's where anxiety lives for me, that lurch when you wake up in the morning, Your brain's just going to look for more things to feel anxious about because you're like, oh, I'm anxious, am I? Oh, what can I be anxious about? So actually, it's about having that connection of brain and body in terms of your recovery from burnout and stress and anxiety and doing it in a more holistic way and sort of listening to your body on it and dealing with both sides of the coin. And then you'll get a true recovery. recovery and moving on
SPEAKER_01:oh i couldn't agree more i couldn't agree more as someone who spent probably the first eight or so years of this work just focusing really on the mind and those mind um things as you talk about you know yes the breathing and and things like gratitude and meditation and all the wonderful things that that changed my life 10 years ago yeah but actually realizing that that i've realized in the last few years that that is it's a great part of the story and it's brilliant but it's not all the story especially when life goes on and as you say you have those moments whether it's with family or with yourself of illness and um you know caring responsibilities and all the things that happen in life and you know um they do happen and then they do regardless of what you you think you've got right going on with your mind your body will tell you otherwise if it's if it's not
SPEAKER_00:it's listening to it and thinking oh that that means that does it okay i need to take a step back. I have, I think I said this to you before, I have a Garmin watch stuck in there. And the reason I have a Garmin is because it's got something called a body battery on it. And I'm someone that lives totally on adrenaline, what I have in my past. I've just like... I will keep going. I will work till nine or 10 o'clock at night. I'll get this 11 o'clock train. I'll get home. I'll get up six o'clock the next morning. I'll go for a run. I'll go out with the kids. Super energy all of the time. And whilst it's very annoying to live with, I can imagine, actually it's also not true quite a lot of the time. I'm just running on adrenaline and just causing myself a deficit and exhaustion, essentially. So I have a body battery, which actually tells me, from a biofeedback point of view, what my body's actually feeling like and makes me just sit back. And if my body's like, body fat is like six out of a hundred and I'm feeling great, I'm going to start thinking, actually, what's going on there? What hormones are being triggered here? Why am I feeling that way? And should I actually try and calm myself down so I can get the restorative sleep or rest that I need? Yeah. That's
SPEAKER_01:fantastic. But isn't it interesting that You know, you say, I feel like I could go on and I feel like I can bounce around. But actually, when you look at the what my body is telling me, my body is telling me something completely different. Listen, it's a feedback loop, isn't it? Both ways. Oh, yes, definitely. Definitely. I mean, you've touched on a few things and we'll share some things in the show notes as well. But thinking about people who should look you up and should come and talk to you, what sort of things might they be going through? What sort of people might they be? Who should, if they're listening to this, think about having a look at your website, having a look at your blog and getting in touch with you? I
SPEAKER_00:think it's kind of a couple of sorts of people, really. I mean, I think it's... It's very hard to know when you're feeling burnt out. It's one of those things that can feel, it disguises itself really well, burnout. I think you've written a few pieces about this recently. But for me, when I see burnout in other people, what it's looking like is disconnection. You're not quite feeling connected to the world around you. Your cognition is off. You're feeling quite overwhelmed. You may be feeling... down anxious quite a lot of the time you're just not quite feeling right and you can't you may be feeling a bit bit stuck and you can't quite put your finger on what it is um and you can't find it you can't see a way out of the treadmill you sort of know you need to make a change but you don't quite know how that's often how burnout can look um and feel so if that sort of works for you in terms of a descriptor then maybe it'd be good to have a chat but also i think when it could be a really good time to have a chat would be when you're maybe coming back from maternity leave and you're re-evaluating your values or that you've not quite got the promotion you wanted and you're not quite sure why because you thought you were a great fit for it and maybe there is something that's not quite right in terms of what you think is right for you and what actually is right for you in terms of just exploring your deeper objectives and values and if you're feeling another thing that could be a good moment is if you're if you've gone into a sort of hyper vigilance so when your feedback loop of anxiety and stress and cortisol going around your body it's got to such a point where you're quite jumpy and and you're quite worried about every email that comes in you turn I've been there I'm not judging anybody you turn your email on and your heart goes like this and you're like oh what's there what's there what's there um if you're in that hyper vigilant hyper anxiety state that just means that possibly we just need a bit of a reset of your of your um of your of your parasympathetic nervous system and just get yourself back onto that feeling connected and calm and grounded as your baseline so that would sort of be when i would suggest people would come and have a chat with me and as i said i've got this it's a breakthrough session for two and a half hours if you just want to do a one-off bit just to sort of reset re-calm they do a bit of deep relaxation hypnotherapy give you some tools to move on or we could do a deeper piece of work so yeah oh just check my blog out I've got lots of stuff on it yeah absolutely the idea is it's top tips it's five minute blogs with five minute tips like you just it's quick it's easy it's there it's just made for the professional people just going about the day they don't have millions of times like do one month silence retreats oh wouldn't that be lovely
SPEAKER_01:one day but I don't see when
SPEAKER_00:that's gonna happen
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'd love that. But yes, one day. Oh, that is fantastic. Thank you, Holly. I know there's so many things that we could talk about and I'm sure we will talk again. We could, we could totally talk forever. I can see that. But yeah, I hope, I hope this has been useful for people and that they go and check out your blog and your, you know, the session that you've talked about sounds super valuable for people. I mean, I know and you know that everybody would benefit from that. It doesn't matter if you're a crossroads it doesn't matter if you're feeling unsure you'd still benefit let someone to do it on me yes
SPEAKER_00:i know really nice
SPEAKER_01:relaxation it values exploration lovely oh exactly you know this is why i always say whenever i'm working with a firm and they say oh yeah we've got in-house coaching we've got in-house counseling available but nobody ever uses it and i'm like oh my goodness because they don't understand what a valuable resource that is and then whenever i'm there i'm like and by the way you know you don't have to have any specific concerns or issues or worries just go and use it
SPEAKER_00:you'll start it's just super valuable I can't imagine I have a therapist like I can't imagine not like it's something I went to in an emergency and now I just see it as maintenance every few weeks it's just you know it's just like soul maintenance to me so you know
SPEAKER_01:I always said this when I started this work. Um, I remember saying, look, if you look at the U S everybody's got there at least five people, you know, they've got their PT, they've got their therapist, they've got the coach, they've got the mentor, they've got the nutritionist and they're, you know, chiropractor, they've got all these people. And in this country, I know it's slightly changing now, which I'm really pleased to see, you know, it's all, no, I'll just do it all myself, even though I'm not, I'll get through it. I'll be all right. I have no idea, but exactly like you, I think once ever you start on that path, um, You know, I have a coach. I've got a mentor. I've got my chiropractor. I've got my doctor I'm seeing at the moment for hormones and all of those. So, you know, you just go and get that support. And sometimes your employer offers it
SPEAKER_00:for free. I know, it's amazing. I am so, so, so grateful for your time today, honestly. And I'm really glad I reached out and I feel so lucky to have met you at last. So thank you. And yeah, I'm sure we will continue to entwine with each other's lives as we go through our journey. So thank you for doing everything you've done and inspiring so many people to make changes. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that is welcome.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:I will accept that in the spirit it was given. I love it. Thank you. That's amazing. So yes, hopefully people will find you and they will reach out to you and follow your journey as well because I'm really excited to follow it. I think it's just fantastic. So thank you so much for joining me and I hope we speak again soon. Absolutely. Take care. Thank you so much. Find other videos on YouTube. Find me on LinkedIn. Join my email list. Do any of those things. I'd love to hear from you. Take care.