Friday Conversation with Sarah Goulbourne, co-founder of gunnercooke

Sarah and I discussed how the future of men and women in the legal profession could be positively impacted by lockdown and the huge rise of flexible and agile working.  Law firms can see how productivity can be increased as well as allowing people more time with their families. 

You can find out more about Sarah and gunnercooke here.

Podcast host Hannah Beko is a self-employed lawyer, coach and creator of the Lawyers Business Mastermind™ (the place for entrepreneurial lawyers to grow).

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You can connect with Hannah on LinkedIn or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.

If you'd like to take part in a #FridayConversation, please do email Hannah@authenticallyspeaking.co.uk. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome to another Friday Conversation. Today I'm very excited to introduce you all to Sarah Goulbourne who is a co-founder of Gunna Cook where I work myself and have been for the last eight years. So hello Sarah, come and introduce

SPEAKER_00: 0:16

yourself to everyone. Hello Hannah, delighted to be here on this very hot and sunny day. I'm speaking to you from Kent and it is absolutely gorgeous here today.

SPEAKER_02: 0:28

Oh, it's so nice to have the weather this week. The children have been out in the garden the whole week.

SPEAKER_00: 0:36

Yes, so just to tell you a little bit about myself for the audience. As Hannah mentioned, I'm co-founder of Gonna Cook. We set the firm up 10 years ago on a very different basis to a normal law firm, but we're delighted that so many lawyers have wanted to join us and share this exciting journey in time in legal services. So now I think we're at the last count, about 260 lawyers across the UK. And of course, this recent time that we've all been going through has been particularly interesting for our firm to see how our lawyers have been coping and dealing with clients and looking after their clients, which is one of the most important things about being gonna cook.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24

Absolutely. So for people who aren't familiar with Gunnar Cook, as I say, I've been with you for a long time now. And a lot of us do work predominantly from home. I mean, I would do about a day and a week in the office. I know, obviously, with your role, you're out and about all over the place. But have you seen a big difference for our lawyers in lockdown versus what they would have been like before?

SPEAKER_00: 1:48

Yes, I mean, we did set the firm up to allow people to work flexibly. And that meant you can work from clients offices from your own home office, you could even take an office locally where you live. But we've always felt it was quite important to operate an infrastructure around some offices, so that people had places to go. Because one of the things we realised many years ago was that although you can allow people lots of freedom and flexibility to work from where they like. People can get isolated and they can get cut off. And so the idea of having office hubs is very important. And in Gunnicutt, we have three branch offices in Leeds, Manchester and London. And we're also looking for one this year in Birmingham too. And I think what COVID has made people realise is that, you know, overnight, we suddenly all started working from home, but it was five days a week. And that creates very different pressures for people, I think, because the intensity of working from home is that you don't get a break. You don't get to pop into a client's office or come into one of our offices. And I think what our lawyers have found is that through lockdown, they've had to kind of adjust and pace themselves because we've all... suddenly become experts in running team meetings and Zoom meetings. And although they're very effective, they're also very intense. So I don't know if any of you have done, you know, four or five Zoom sessions in a day, but by the end of it, you are mentally exhausted and quite strained. And so I think we have to be aware of the fact that there's some really positive things about working from home, But the way you work needs some thought. And also, obviously, for people, for lawyers, parents with families, you've had the added pressures of children wanting to be, needing to be homeschooled and looked after. So we've had many instances of parents having to juggle one person doing morning, one person doing afternoon, both doing a bit in the evening when the children have gone to bed. And I think that's a very unusual scenario because usually in a gun and cook model, you've got your childcare sorted and you'll be dropping off at nursery or school. And I think that has been an extra pressure on people, which is unusual. It's the COVID situation, obviously. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 4:24

Yeah, it's funny because that really echoes what a lot of people have said in these Friday conversation sessions, which is, you know, even people who are not familiar with working from home a lot previously, they'd say, yes, we like working from home, but we'd never want to do it all the time. We'd never want to do it 100% of the time. They want to have that office hub, as you say, and to be with their team or to cool a conversation, if you like.

SPEAKER_00: 4:47

Correct. I think though, stepping back, and I've thought a lot about this in the last few weeks and months, I actually believe this is a huge opportunity for many lawyers at all levels to recognise that it is very possible to work differently from the way that traditional law firms have structured their workplaces. And I think giving that freedom to your people to work remotely has allowed people to see how productive you can be, how efficient you can be, what time you save, how you can use the time you spent commuting in a different way, how you can contribute more to parenting and being part of your children's lives. And these are some really positive things that I think it would be a real shame if some of this didn't continue post lockdown and that employers didn't recognise that law firms can be run in a different way, which doesn't mean a drop in productivity or efficiency. And it doesn't mean that client service is diminished in any way at all because clients are all adapting. Let's think about it. All our clients have had to move into these remote working environments. So there's a huge opportunity for us to change the way that legal services are being delivered and to allow lawyers who are parents to have a better quality of family life.

SPEAKER_02: 6:20

Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's something I've been talking about for years because of the model and the way we work that I think working from home generally, not in this situation, of course, like you say, when you've got the children and trying to share an office with your other half, etc. But generally working from home is so much more productive, not having the commute time, not having the sort of as nice as it is to see your colleagues in the office. Sometimes you just got too much work to get through to keep stopping and having conversations.

SPEAKER_00: 6:48

And people say, well, you know, what are the risks of it? And I kind of think, well, what are the risks to trusting your staff to work from their home? I mean, as lawyers, we're generally extremely accountable to our clients for what we're doing for them. And clients often want a large amount of accountability, you know, in terms of what they're paying for and knowing what they're paying for. So I think we're all set up as a profession to actually give clients certainty. Clients aren't interested actually in where you're doing the piece of work. or what time of day even you're doing the piece of work. The fact that the piece of work is delivered, you know, on time as promised and to a high quality is actually what the client is interested in. And I think when you look at the positives, you know, for staff, reduction in stress, for sure, just taking away people's commute time and worrying about picking up from school or nursery and the, you know, avoiding a rush hour commute more time with your family. These are huge, huge benefits, which will help, I think, people retain staff longer. And, you know, for the employer in future, we, employers might be able to look for lower overheads. They might not need the size of offices that they've had in the past. And looking at staff productivity and wellbeing, they might find that staff are actually feeling better about, you know, about working being with that employer. So I think there's so many positive things we could learn from this. And I think looking to the future, imagine offices where they may not be in the center of cities, and we may end up with more hub offices near where people live, where you say, well, I don't need an hour commute. I'll just have a 10 minute commute into my local town where there are 10 or 15 lawyers gathered together or working together in a smaller hub office. I can really see that being a future opportunity for people.

SPEAKER_02: 8:58

Absolutely. I think personally, I think it'd be fascinating to see how the profession changes coming out of this, which is one of the reasons I started this little series was to see how we can chart not just people's experiences now, but what's going to happen as we come out. So I mean, I 100% agree with you about the positives and share your hope that things will change. What do you think? the vast majority of firms will do. Do you think they will embrace this? Do you think they'll need to be sort of forced by their staff?

SPEAKER_00: 9:32

I think because every single business person in the UK has had to suddenly go into a home working situation. I think for many people at a very senior level in their organisations who historically, traditionally would never have worked from home, probably weren't even set up to work from home. I think this has been a long enough period for them to see the benefits of it because they've experienced it themselves. So I think however good your policies are and however good your HR departments are, people could never have forced the very senior leaders of organisations to actually do this and experience it themselves. But now they have experienced it. I think they'll be much, much more receptive to it. Not full-time necessarily. And I kind of agree with them. I think you could create... a flexible working environment where you bring people into offices for different reasons. So you let people draft at home, you let people run phone calls and client meetings over Zoom at home, but you bring people into offices to train them or to have shared practice area meetings or to put on client presentations or supervise, you know, supervision. It's a big issue for lawyers when you've got junior lawyers around you, you know, wanting monitoring and their work checking. But we've all got to know how to use Zoom and you can share documents and share presentations. So the technology has been made so easy for us that there's really no excuse. And so I think we could use our offices in different ways in the future. That's what I would hope to see.

SPEAKER_02: 11:23

Yes yeah I think I think that that must be true because I know obviously for us we were set up from day one to work remotely and so we've always had good IT and the proper systems and really you can work anywhere in the world where you've got an internet connection it's just as fast as it is in the office which is brilliant but I know obviously there are a lot of teething problems for other people who are not ready to work from home but as you say in these last three to four months that's had to change those systems have to now be in place.

SPEAKER_00: 11:49

And it would be such a shame to shut it all down and go back. And I think we're going to live with these type of viruses now. That's been accepted. It's not just going to magically disappear one day. So I think it's a societal change. We have to kind of adapt at quite a structural level. And therefore the idea of employees just going back to the way it was when they've invested in the technology and the new processes and systems just seems... ridiculous. I mean, it's, it's a bit like, you know, trains being invented and then everybody's still, you know, sticking to horses and cars. It just seems to me a real wasted opportunity. If, if law firms do go back and I'm really hoping that they listen to their staff and they think about productivity and morale and think about getting the best out of everybody at whatever stage of career you're at, because I, people have demonstrated and proved how how they can be trusted to work at home um yes

SPEAKER_02: 13:01

yeah because trust has always been the big thing and i know that's where yourself and daryl broke the mold because when you started gonna cook you straight away said it's remote we're going to trust everybody and that that's been the piece i think that is missing perhaps in other firms um

SPEAKER_00: 13:16

And it's hard to trust. I mean, the other thing is, let's think about how businesses have, some businesses have continued to develop and grow during the lockdown. You know, we've had to recruit remotely. So we've been introduced to a lawyer, by Zoom, using email, having video calls and brought them through our recruitment process without ever meeting them. And I know other law firms will have had to do that too. And don't get me wrong, it is harder. It is harder to do it than having the opportunity to sit face to face with somebody and shake hands with them and show them around an office. And I do accept that recruiting staff just using virtual tools is more difficult. But I think once we get back to a situation where we can use offices in the right way, we'll have welcome days and we'll have induction weeks and all sorts of different ways of settling people in. So again, we shouldn't use it as an excuse to not grow our businesses and expand. I think it's perfectly possible to still attract and recruit staff during during periods like this, because we may end up facing future periods of hopefully shorter ones, but of lockdowns where they say, look, everybody's got to work at home again. Everybody in Manchester has to work at home for a month or something. It's perfectly possible that that could happen in the future.

SPEAKER_02: 14:46

Yes. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right there. And actually, you've sort of touched on what was going to be my next question, which was, you know, I know that you're very heavily involved in recruitment for Gunna Cook and that normally as part of that, you'd be out and about, whether it's Manchester, London, meeting people. So how different has lockdown been for you compared to what you would normally be doing?

SPEAKER_00: 15:11

It's interesting because I set up a Zoom call normally with the lawyer who I'm meeting for the first time. And, you know, you break the ice and you have a bit of social conversation first before you sort of start talking about the detail of somebody's CV in practice. But listening is a huge part of the recruitment exercise and listening to a lawyer talk about their practice and their clients and what they hope and dream their practice to be, because that's all about what going to cook is about sort of letting you think big and letting you think about what it could be. So, so that, that side of it, I haven't really lost. I suppose then it's the ongoing connection of introducing them to other going to cook lawyers. Normally we'd bring people into one of our offices and let them, look around and soak up the atmosphere and maybe have a couple of cups of coffee with different lawyers. That's obviously hard because we've all got to suddenly do it remotely. So I think the interaction with other lawyers has been more difficult. But yeah, I mean, we have encouraged lawyers to join and they are joining using these remote methods of Zoom and Teams and and email and sharing documents and presentations. So it can be done, but it's not my preference. I will be going back to my face-to-face running around meetings, because partly that's me. I like human interaction. I like human contact. I like to see somebody's face when I'm talking to them. You can just read so much, can't you, from being with somebody, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 17:04

Yes, absolutely. No, nothing will ever replace the being face to face with somebody, you know, colleagues or potential recruits or anybody, really. I

SPEAKER_00: 17:15

think what's interesting, though, is, you know, will companies expect people to travel like they did, you know, get on planes and trains for meetings? I don't think so. I think... the nature of meetings might change. Once you've built trust in a team and you've got a group of people together who know each other and have built rapport over a period of time, it would then be very easy to facilitate some of those type of meetings using Teams and Zoom and WebEx. So, for example, I'm down in Kent and our leadership team and the board are based up in Manchester. And what we had a... a whole period of during lockdown was half an hour meetings every day by teams. And because we all knew each other so well and there was so much trust there between us already, those were very natural meetings actually and very natural conversations. So I do think there's something about employers changing the way that we have meetings because i don't think you'll need people to physically travel certainly getting on planes and trains which are the big issues with the virus you know i i think that could change as a future and it will save save employers money and it will save employees time um yes

SPEAKER_02: 18:35

yeah yeah I think that's that's very true especially when you think about how how many lawyers still charge by the the hour and you think all that time spent traveling to meetings all the different lawyers turning up and um yes so for clients it might be better as well

SPEAKER_01: 18:51

yeah

SPEAKER_02: 18:52

so what have your highs and lows been been during lockdown whether it's personal or work related what have been the good points and the bad points

SPEAKER_00: 19:00

okay um highs for me are an unexpected opportunity Thank you so much. I've managed to build exercise into my weekly routine, which was a personal goal of mine, but often got shifted because of commuting and traveling. That's now embedded in my routine and habit. And I think that's just very, very positive for me. I'm sure lots of people have found exercise to be a big relief during lockdown, but I'm not going to drop that now. I've seen the benefits of it. I feel better for it. So I think... building regular exercise into my day has been important. So that's another high. My lows would be that my mum is elderly and had to isolate. So haven't seen my mum. This is the longest period ever, but I'm looking forward to seeing her in a couple of weeks. So FaceTime has been great with her, but not quite the same. Yeah. Obviously the lows, we're just seeing the effect of this virus. January this year, we all had our plans for the year. By the end of March, everybody was rewriting their plan. I mean, it's taken the globe by storm and has affected so many people's lives in so many people's ways. And just seeing the personal devastation it causes families has been a real low for me. and my admiration for the NHS through the period has been I just think they've been unbelievable and all the staff have been amazing I think people are feeling much more positive now but then you get the other way and it seems like people are suddenly just releasing themselves into which can look a bit irresponsible when you look at pictures in the press yesterday of people on beaches and things so I do worry that you know we went into a hard lockdown and now we're coming out and will that will that cause us problems for you know later in the year i don't know but but the one thing the great thing is we'll be much more able to deal with it if it does happen again and we'll all be much more prepared and there'll be better systems and processes in place so I mean, you've got to take comfort from that. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 21:53

Yeah, absolutely. So what, what do you think has been one of the biggest things that you've learned either about yourself or, or business generally that, that might be useful for other people?

SPEAKER_00: 22:06

I think, I think probably to not, to, to learn, to not be too hard on yourself. So I, As professionals, we're all extremely motivated and driven and hardworking and you never get to be a professional unless you put many years of effort into getting qualifications and training. But I think you can get on a track and you can work extremely hard and forget sometimes to look after yourself. And I think I would have said I worked intensely hard as I do normally for about six or eight weeks of first six or eight weeks of lockdown. And then I actually started to have a bit of a wobble and think, Sarah, you've actually got to look after yourself a bit here. And I think that recognition to take that step back and sometimes think, well, I'm human and I'm vulnerable and I'm finding this difficult and I need to share that with people and not just be some sort of super person that's always on it and always at it, I think has been quite a good lesson for me that I can have a bad day and it's okay to say this isn't feeling great and sharing that with people because previously I probably just would have internalized that to be honest and not done that. But I think we've all learned to be quite a bit more open with each other. I've certainly found that with my colleagues and friends and family and I think that's a good thing. I think that's a really good thing.

SPEAKER_02: 23:43

Yes, I would agree with that. I think given our profession generally and the way we've perhaps... dealt with sort of as you say brushing things under the carpet and not not not examining our health just going full pelt at work I think this time has been a fantastic opportunity for people to look at their lives in a different way like health like you've said like exercise like changing what they eat and cooking their own meals from scratch

SPEAKER_01: 24:10

there's

SPEAKER_02: 24:10

been so much that people have learned about themselves in this time that hopefully they're going to take some of it out

SPEAKER_00: 24:17

And I think, I mean, Hannah, obviously you're a coach, you know this from helping people. This period has been long enough to establish a change in habits for people because changing habits is difficult. It takes time and you have to take little steps. But I think because we've been in lockdown, you know, more or less, well, you know, three full months, that's long enough for people to to actually say, well, I am going to go to bed at this time of night or I am going to exercise at this time of day and actually embed some habits into their daily life so that they will keep those habits going even when we get more, shall I say, back to normal, whatever that means.

UNKNOWN: 24:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:57

So I think that's positive.

SPEAKER_02: 25:00

Yes, it is a question I get quite often, actually, is, you know, oh, I'm doing all these new positive things. How do I make sure that I continue them? And I've said, well, A, it is up to you to make sure you keep continuing them. But you have a good start, just like you've said. You know, it's what's the average 20 to 60 days to create a new habit? Well, we've had that long now. So you've got the best possible start and you've just got to keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's a fantastic note to end on there, Sarah. Thank you so much for coming

SPEAKER_00: 25:28

to have a chat with me. Hannah, I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. And I look forward to hearing it soon. Thanks very much. Thank you. Bye.