The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
A series of conversations with those in the legal profession navigating the ups and downs of the law during and after lockdown. How has this changed the profession as we've emerged from the global pandemic?
The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
Friday Conversation with Kelly Reid of Realm Recruitment
Kelly and I discussed the future of working patterns and how much time people will want to spend in the office after lockdown. People are going to want more flexibility going forward and employers have found increased productivity as well. How much will this impact female lawyers in their careers?
You can find out more about Kelly and Realm here.
Podcast host Hannah Beko is a self-employed lawyer, coach and creator of the Lawyers Business Mastermind™ (the place for entrepreneurial lawyers to grow).
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If you'd like to take part in a #FridayConversation, please do email Hannah@authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.
Hello everyone and welcome to another Friday Conversation. Today I'm joined by Kelly Reid who works at Realm Recruitment and specialises in the recruitment of private client lawyers. So hi Kelly, thanks for coming to join me. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Oh it's great to speak to you again. I know we've not spoken for a few weeks but come and tell everybody about who you are and what you do.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so I'm Kelly Reid, as Hannah said. I specialise in recruiting private client lawyers, but that also includes court protection and contentious probate lawyers as well.
SPEAKER_00:Fantastic. And so Kelly, tell me about your, we're going to talk all about your lockdown experience. But before we get into that, how much did you work from home before sort of lockdown happened?
SPEAKER_01:Well, Realm have always been an advocate for flexible working. So we've always operated with flexi time and with some working from home. Me personally, I worked from home about one day a week and then I worked kind of reduced hours really around sort of dropping off and picking up the children from school. So it's always been really, really flexible.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's really good. And how do you think the people at Realm have found working from home on a sort of, you know, 100% basis in lockdown?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it's been interesting because at Realm, you know, everyone's got different personal circumstances. So I think I'm the only one in Realm with children. So that's obviously been a different take and different experience working from home for me than it probably has been for some of the others. But yeah, I think everybody, I know that they did a survey. We did an internal survey and it showed that everybody kind of enjoyed the working from home more aspect. So in terms of moving forward, we're going to be working more of a split, I think, in terms of half the week working in the office and half a week working from home. There are others that have missed the office quite a bit and they'll be returning to the office a bit more, I think, going forward. But generally, yeah, I think the way that Dwayne, our director, has seen it is with our job, you can actually be flexible and trust everybody to be able to get on with the job. So we can do that from wherever we want to really. I know that one of my colleagues, she's actually from Poland originally, and she's going to be spending August in Poland and recruiting from there, because obviously everything's online. So yeah, it's a really sort of supportive working environment in terms of the flexibility that we've got. And I think that'll only increase moving forward.
SPEAKER_00:That's fantastic to hear, especially that people can go abroad and work there. I mean, that's what I've always found with my own business, that I've been able to do that so long as there's a good internet connection. But it's great to hear that other businesses are doing it as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think it's one of the things that attracted me to Realm, to be honest, when I first joined three years ago now. And yeah, I think it just adds a lot of value when your employer trusts you to be able to get on with the job and there's no micromanagement.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, absolutely, definitely. I think it not only helps you to be able to get on with the job, but you enjoy it, you get more job satisfaction, you just feel better if you know you're being trusted like that and have that freedom in your life, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it's finding that balance as well, because it's nice to sometimes not have that commute time and spend the commute doing other things, you know, whether it be, you know, picking the children up from school or, you know, because you can always log on later on in the evenings when you need to as well. I think it's just trusting you to get the job done in whichever way suits you best in your personal circumstances but you know at the same time I wouldn't want to work from home full-time you know it's nice I do miss my colleagues and I miss the kind of chatter around the office and you know just being able to talk to somebody about different situations so I think if we were you know everybody's kind of on the same page that a bit of a split you know some days in the office some days from home would work best for everybody.
SPEAKER_00:That's what I'm hearing from all sorts of businesses definitely and I did I heard there was some research I think that LinkedIn did potentially of about 75,000 people so it was a big you know big survey and only something like seven percent wanted to go back into the office full-time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah we did a white paper and did some research as well our own research and it you know that there was some flexibility around some agile working that firms are offering before lockdown and I think from the surveys, everybody's found the same that, you know, people are just going to want more flexibility moving forward. Now they've had a taste of more working from home. And also from an employer's perspective, the productivity levels were still there. You know, everybody saw the same productivity levels, if not a slight increase. So, you know, from an employer's perspective, it's not going to sort of do them any harm by offering that flexibility and keeping their employees happy as well.
SPEAKER_00:That's really true. And I know it's something that I hadn't mentioned to you before we started this, but given your role with private client lawyers, which I think from speaking to you tends to predominantly be women, do you think this is going to have an impact on people that you're looking to place and the things that they wanted? Because before lockdown, everybody wanted more flexibility and agile working, but do you think this is going to have an impact for your candidates?
SPEAKER_01:I think in terms of, again, just referring back to the white paper and the research truth, Dawn. People's priorities are still the same things, to be honest. Flexibility is still very much up there. I think where people wanted, you know, ideally a bit more flexibility, that's going to be still one of the main factors for them, you know, looking for alternative jobs if they can't get that from the current employers. And I think as well, you know, salaries up there as well in terms of their priorities. So I don't think it would, you know, post lockdown, I think it would have just proved to them that they do want that that flexibility and it can work for them so so again it's still you know a top rank priority for them
SPEAKER_00:yes yeah and it's interesting times to see what will happen i think after lockdown because i think there will be lots of changes as you say that people always wanted beforehand but perhaps it's going to be more difficult for organizations to argue against it after lockdown.
SPEAKER_01:And I've spoken to quite a number of firms since I've come back from furlough, actually, you know, about their experience of lockdown. And a lot of firms that hadn't, like I said, some of the larger firms had agile working pre-lockdown, you know, so they were kind of set up for this already. It was just a case of increasing the amount of time that people were working from home. But some of the maybe more, you know, the smaller, more traditional practices that didn't have working from home pre-lockdown, who have now obviously worked from home and experienced experienced it, a lot of them have said, well, I think everybody that I've spoken to has said it's worked extremely well and everybody's offering some, you know, some flexibility moving forward.
SPEAKER_00:That's fantastic news. As someone who's very big into flexible working, I think that's great news.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I think, like you said, I think where it's, you know, where they've seen that it's worked, why not, basically?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think
SPEAKER_01:there's always going to be the more, you know, some firms that, you know, where they've always worked in a certain way, so maybe they don't want, you know, don't want to change that. But certainly not been anybody that I've spoken to yet. Everybody seems to be on board with it. And, you know, obviously they've got the resources now already set up. So it's a bit, you know, you'd question why, you know, why people couldn't have some flexibility moving forward.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I think it'd be so hard for them to say not. And as you say, there'd be so many other firms that are offering it that will be that choice for candidates in the future to move. So what have been your highs and lows of lockdown?
SPEAKER_01:Um, well, I was actually furloughed for, um, a few months. Um, so, so it's been, it's been, I've got two children who are five and eight. Um, do you know, it was actually a blessing in disguise being furloughed because obviously from a recruitment perspective, you know, things, everything got kind of put on hold from March, April, May that, that then kind of through those, through those months. Um, but I think in terms of me personally with my husband working full time, um, That was a blessing in disguise. So I could actually concentrate on doing some homeschooling with them. And do you know what? It was just that the high was probably not spending any money on and doing extravagant things with the children, but like being at home and making it fun. So like we camped in the garden. That was interesting. I mean, the kids found that a lot of fun. It was an experience for me and the husband. And we did like sleepovers downstairs in the lounge and just having generally a bit more time, a bit more flexibility, time with the children to go for walks. Obviously, there was some really nice weather. So we had a lot of time in the garden and things and just being a bit creative as well. I know that my daughter, she's five. um a lot of her homeschooling was all creative work so it was like making play-doh and painting and all that kind of thing and just having the the time and the freedom to be able to actually do that instead of having to always have you know work within a time frame and always be rushing around that's probably a major high um a low would have been seeing how much of an impact that lockdown had on the children more than anybody else. You know, when like they couldn't understand really, especially my youngest one, why she couldn't go and hug like, you know, the grandparents and things. We're a really close family. So that was quite sad and obviously missing school and children and, you know, their friends and things. So yeah, that was probably a low. But yeah, I think it's just been a completely new experience, hasn't it? And everybody's, it's interesting to see that each person that you speak to has got completely different circumstances. So, you know, they found the time so different, you know, I think it's certainly different whether you were furloughed or not, or whether you were both working full time, you know, that would have a massive impact on how you've experienced lockdown.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I think you're absolutely right. I think, you know, that there are good and bad points to being furloughed, you know, I think, but for those that have got particularly young children, like yourself, I've spoken to, have said that really, it probably was a blessing in disguise, as much as they might have missed work and missed their colleagues, to not have to worry about the homeschooling and work was probably a good thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think trying to, you know, give your five-year-olds some work to do and expect them to get on with it is just quite unrealistic. Phonics is a, I mean, it was a learning curve for me, never mind her.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yes, definitely. So what have you learned about yourself or your family or your industry in lockdown that you think other people might benefit from?
SPEAKER_01:I think in terms of on a personal level, obviously looking after your mental health during this time has been so important. I know that's been spread quite widely out there. But I mean, me personally, I started running just after Christmas and it was always one of the things that I felt that I had to do, you know, just for exercise and I'd go at the end of the day when I was tired. But actually during lockdown, it's been brilliant just to get out there and get a bit of fresh air and have a little bit of time to yourself. because as you know, Hannah, when you're in the house and the house is full, it's quite hard to find a bit of head space. So just going out there and going for a run, I think it's been brilliant just to sort of collect your thoughts and have a bit of head space, which has done me the world of good. And that actually made me, enjoy running dare i say it um so so yeah i think just just making sure like i said you know i think life is so busy that sometimes you kind of just you know you get on with it and it's nice to sort of just have a bit of time to assess where you're at you know and have that headspace just a bit of thinking time um so whether that's you know i know people do meditation or reading just just having a bit of time for yourself a bit of time out doing something that you enjoy i think is really important
SPEAKER_00:And I know that I've asked you this question before, but for the benefit of everyone else, is that something you think you're going to be able to continue prioritising as we come out of lockdown?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I have to be honest. My main concern was whether I'd be able to do it with juggling work. And I found that I go first thing in the morning and it just sets me up for the rest of the day. I don't know what it is, but, you know, when you go actually dragging yourself out for a run, it's not enjoyable. But the kind of buzz that you get after is just, I don't know, it just, it actually gives you more energy. So you kind of feel like you're ready to sort of take on the day, especially if you set yourself like personal goals with running and you have a faster run or a longer run, or, you know, you've kind of beat the last run that you've done. I don't know, it just gives you that bit of energy and a bit of a boost for the day ahead. In terms of the market, what I'd say with regards to lockdown and what I've learned is making time for networking is so important. And having that LinkedIn presence, it just keeps you connected. So when I was furloughed, you know, it was really important and just to keep a handle on what was going on around me so that when I did come back from furlough, you know, it wasn't from like a standing star. I still had, you know, an idea of what the market looked like and what was going on. And I found some fantastic networking groups. There's so much out there and available, you know, and online with training and things like that and podcasts. I just think all of those have been really important and something that, you know, when you're busy in your day-to-day life, you kind of don't prioritize so much, but it has taught me that, you know, these things are important and you do need to sort of make time for them. So it's all about time and going forward, you know, just working your diary a bit better, I suppose.
SPEAKER_00:yes so sort of taking the things that you've learned from lockdown as being really useful and then you know as best as you can making sure that you can fit those in in the future as well
SPEAKER_01:I think when you've got your kind of day-to-day work, you can kind of think, you just get caught up in that, can't you? So if you're really, really busy, you kind of think, oh, I've not got any time at the moment to do this networking event or to go to this place or what have you. But I think they should actually be prioritised and put in the diary because they're just as important to keep your finger on the pulse and to keep your connections there and to keep an eye on what's going on.
SPEAKER_00:yes yeah no i i do agree with you i mean i know i think that's what i have been saying to some people who've said to me oh you know i've started these new habits um you know whether they're health related or work related and how do i make sure i keep them going and and i think and i might have said it to you when we were talking about your running as well you know instead of sort of oh i'll fit it in later in the day if you do it first thing in the morning so whether it's go for a run or whether it's do your linkedin marketing for 10 minutes or whatever you do it first thing then it's not about trying to fit it in later in the day.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely I completely agree with that and I do think it's just got you know some some all in all like you said whatever it is just has really positive effects you know you feel like you've achieved something at the end of each day and I think I think the connections during the lockdown and even when we come out of lockdown if everyone is having a bit more flexibility and do more working from home so that you know they're a bit more they're still a bit isolated you know the networking groups are fantastic to keep connected and just to have a chat
SPEAKER_00:yes I do hope that there has been so much new emphasis on networking and meeting people and connections that's that I think is just brilliant I'm a big fan of anyway but yeah I really would be glad to see people continue with that afterwards as well for their for their careers but also just just for the enjoyment of meeting new people and learning new things yeah absolutely yeah oh well it was lovely to talk to you today Kelly thank you very much for joining me
SPEAKER_01:You're welcome. Thanks so much, Hannah. Lovely to talk to you.
SPEAKER_00:You too.