The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
A series of conversations with those in the legal profession navigating the ups and downs of the law during and after lockdown. How has this changed the profession as we've emerged from the global pandemic?
The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
Friday Conversation with Rho Thomas, Trade Mark Lawyer & Personal Finance Coach
I was delighted to welcome Rho as our first US guest on the podcast. We talked about her exciting work with lawyers on developing their skills around personal wealth and finance but also touched on some really interesting points about lockdown in the US and also how she manages her mindset around being a full time fee earning lawyer and a mum with two young children at home full time.
You can find out more about Rho here.
Podcast host Hannah Beko is a self-employed lawyer, coach and creator of the Lawyers Business Mastermind™ (the place for entrepreneurial lawyers to grow).
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You can connect with Hannah on LinkedIn or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Friday Conversations. Today I'm really excited to be joined by Ro Thomas, who is a trademark lawyer based in Atlanta and our first US guest, which is very exciting. So apart from her work as a trademark lawyer, she is also a personal finance coach, I think working mainly with lawyers, she'll tell us more about that, and also has her own podcast. So thank you so much for coming to join us. Tell everybody a bit more about you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for having me. and personal finance tips to help lawyers achieve financial independence and lifestyle freedom. And lifestyle freedom can be whatever that means for the lawyer, right? So whether you want to just have more balance in your current role, if you want to change positions, do a lower paying role, or if you want to leave the law altogether, which I have also seen. I just want lawyers to be able to do what it is that they want to do.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, that's fantastic. We could have a whole episode just talking about namesets and lawyers and what holds them back and all that sort of thing, which is interesting. But do you know what I'd love to know? How long have you been doing this? How did you get started? And how receptive are lawyers to it? How have you found that?
SPEAKER_00:So I have been doing the money side for probably two and a half years now. It started with a blog. I had a blog before the podcast and I was sharing my husband's and my journey out of debt. About four years ago, we found ourselves in over$670,000 of debt with a negative$342,000 net worth. And so we were thinking about these lives that we wanted to lead because the impact for us looking at our finances was the birth of our first child. And so we're looking at the types of parents that we want to be and how present we want to be. And our working schedules to that point weren't conducive to doing that. I was a junior associate. I think I was a third year when my son was born. And I had been doing all of the hours, you know, 2100 hours and things like that when it was just my husband and me. And then I'm preparing to head back to work after maternity leave. and thinking about that schedule and how that doesn't mesh with the parenting style that I envisioned for myself. And so that's how we started looking at our finances. But in sharing our journey on the blog, in sharing the different tips that I was learning, some of my colleagues, other people who knew about the blog asked me how we were doing it. How are you paying off this debt? That type of thing. And so I started coaching around money, helping people get their money together and all of that, which was a lot of fun. But then I also noticed these kind of mindset blocks. Like there are a number of attorneys who feel like basically if I'm not sacrificing everything for the law, then I'm not a good lawyer. Or people not knowing how to balance. And I think balance is probably the wrong word, but people not knowing how to set those boundaries around work. Law is the type of profession where there's always something to do. And some people don't know how to cut it off. And so just wanted to address those issues because I think that we could have more control in our lives if we knew how to manage the mindset, the perfectionism, the always wanting to be available, always being on call, all of that. And so that's how the idea for the podcast was born. One, the writing was a little bit, it was becoming more difficult. I had my second child last year and, you know, after writing all day and then coming home to two toddlers or a toddler and an infant, didn't really want to write some more. So I started looking into other things that I could do and came across podcasting. And I had this thought last summer, like, oh, I should do this because my blog was actually just general personal finance for anyone. It wasn't targeting lawyers specifically. But I was thinking with the mindset things that I had come across talking to colleagues and the fact that I already had this personal finance knowledge and had coached lawyers that I would love to create a resource for lawyers specifically. And that's how the podcast Wealthy-esque was born. So it's been a lot of fun. I've had the podcast now for about four months and have been really enjoying it.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's fantastic. I love it. And yes, it is interesting, isn't it? I've been doing some work myself from the mental health and stress related angle about the characteristics of lawyers, the perfectionism, the people pleaser, never saying no, you know, and you're so right, it feeds into finances, because I suppose I'm just thinking that, you know, one of the pillars, if you like, the well being is financial well being. And it's, you know, it's the biggest indicator of divorce and all those sorts of things. You know, finances are a massive piece of our lives, aren't they?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it It absolutely is. And I think a lot of times, especially in our profession where we tend to have pretty good incomes, right? I can pay all of my bills. We just don't pay attention to the finances. As long as my bills are paid, then it's okay. And that's exactly what happened with my husband and me. We were paying all of our bills on time. You know, we maybe save a little bit here and we weren't paying attention to the fact that we had these astronomical student loans that also had interest rates that were accruing more and more interest, even as we paid the minimum on them. So just, I know that that's probably a unique situation to Americans. I know that other countries don't have that same student loan issue, but A lot of us are not paying attention to the details of our finances. If everything is okay, if there's no big problem, then we don't worry about it.
SPEAKER_01:think that must be quite true I mean certainly from my perspective and my husband and I until you know again a few years ago we were the same we were working hard you're you know growing your income and being promoted and all those sorts of things and you know you might be putting a little percentage away in your pension or whatever but I think as well you spend so much of your day as a lawyer looking at other people's paperwork and other people's issues that you I don't think it's just me you don't want to come home and look at your own personal paperwork. You know, I'm sure there's a saying that, you know, lawyers will sign anything for themselves personally without reading it properly. You know, in your day job, you're reading everything for your clients and protecting them. But when somebody puts something under your nose for you, you just sign it. And finances are the same. And we just, we're so busy in the day job and so focused in the day job that we don't have the energy maybe at home to do it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense because thinking takes a lot out of you, right? It takes a lot of energy. And so then to come home and try to manage your own life. Yeah. You know, I think the key is finding a system that works for you, that doesn't feel too overwhelming, that's not too complex, so that you will actually do it. And one thing that I always recommend that my clients do, especially when they're first starting out, is looking at the budget weekly. So creating your budget, first of all, but looking at your budget weekly. And that way you get a sense of feel for how you're spending and you know if your budget categories are workable for you or not. And then also not to go too granular with it. Like, you know, you don't need a... a toothpaste budget or whatever the thing is for you. Having your broad categories and taking a look back at how you spent in the last three months, that will give you a good indicator for where your budget should go. Because another problem, and forgive me for diving too deep into this, is it's just something that I'm really excited about. But another problem I think that a lot of us have is when we're first budgeting, we go too restrictive, right? So it's, oh, I'm going to get on this budget and I'm going to budget$100 for groceries. And it's like, well, if you typically spend$500 for your family,$100 is not going to work for you and you're not going to stick to the budget. And then you're going to say budgeting doesn't work and give up. So I always recommend doing a three month look back so you have a realistic starting place and then you can tweak it from there.
SPEAKER_01:You know, that's so interesting because, again, that's what I do with wellbeing. I say to people, here's some tools you can use, but do not go and use them all at once. Otherwise, you'll do it for a week, it'll all fall apart, and then you'll say, Hannah's tools don't work. Yes, exactly. It sounds so similar with what you're helping people with. So, yeah, it's fantastic. So tell me, how have lawyers been receptive to this? How have you found it with people?
SPEAKER_00:People have been very receptive to it, especially as they see all of the money leaks, right? It's so easy to just spend, like we talked about earlier, when you've got the money coming in and your bills are paid, you don't realize how much money you have left over once your essentials are covered. But when we looked at it, when we sit down and look at it and create your budget and we see like, hey, you've got X amount over here, like what's been going on with that? And they realize that they've been spending, a lot of people have been spending at Amazon eating out. You know, those are the common areas where that money gets spent. But when you see it on paper or I don't actually do it on paper, I do it on like an Excel spreadsheet. But when you see it in hard copy, the actual numbers, it's like, oh, wow, that's a nice sum of money that I can then redirect to my own goals. So it could be paying off debt like my husband and me. It could be that you want to go on nicer vacations. Well, Amazon's been stealing all your vacations. So let's pay attention to that. the money that we're spending, right? And if you find that you've been spending X at Amazon and you don't like that amount, you can maybe cut it down because now you know that you've been spending that amount there and you can then be intentional about redirecting it to whatever it is that you actually want to do.
SPEAKER_01:And so with your work with clients, have you seen them make sort of shifts in their career and what they're actually doing, sort of changing things in their lives as a result of having a look at their finances?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I have. There was one client in particular who was in a not very good work situation and, you know, we came because she was saying that she needed to get out. if she could. And so we looked at her budget, we mapped out a plan and she was able to leave that job and go to something else where she got a little bit less pay but has more of a balance. There was another client who we looked at her budget and found where her family had a lot of this extra money that they didn't realize that they had. And so they were able to rework things. They went down to only being on one income, like spending one income, and then ended up being impacted by the pandemic. One of them was furloughed, but they were okay because they were already living on one income anyway. So that was a particularly heartwarming moment for me, an impactful moment for me to see a real world situation where disaster strikes, but you're okay because your finances are in order.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I love that. That's a fantastic example. So you've brought us nicely, I suppose, onto the sort of next topic, if you like, which is the pandemic and lockdown. And, you know, people who listen to the podcast know that, again, it was started like you, I started the podcast in lockdown. And the idea was, you know, follow lawyers lives through the lockdown experience and beyond. But I know you and I were sharing before we started that for you guys over there, there is no beyond yet. You are very much still in lockdown. So just for anybody who's listening, we are recording this at the end of October. But yes, tell everybody a bit about what it's like over there.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, things seem to be about the same as they were in March, unfortunately. And we've had a number of decisions to reopen these businesses and to do this. And then I think for some people, because we have been on lockdown for so long, people have kind of decided the pandemic is over for them. And they're going out and about and doing their thing because the businesses are open, the restaurants are open. And so they'll go. Some people choose not to wear masks and there's no mandate that they do so. So I think that all of that has kind of contributed to our really slow progress in coming out of this. I've chosen to stay home. for most of it. I've gone out for short errands. We've had maybe a doctor's appointment here, or we've gone to vote, that type of thing. But the boys and I have been home. My husband is actually a doctor. So he is going out because he can't see patients from home. So he has to go into work. And so that leaves me here with my two toddlers during the day, and then also balancing work and my business. And it has been an interesting shift for sure. So,
SPEAKER_01:okay. So you've been doing the whole full-time parent, full-time lawyer, side business as well. What have your highs and lows been of this whole experience?
SPEAKER_00:I think the high for me has definitely been being forced to slow down. I don't think that I would have slowed down the way that I did in this pandemic on my own. So it has really forced me to Slow down. And I think it also highlighted areas where my priorities were out of whack, you know, because we always say like, oh yes, family is my highest priority. And it's like, well, is it because it seems that everything is fitting into the nooks and crannies around work as opposed to the other way around. And so being in the pandemic with a four-year-old, almost two-year-old, you know, my work literally has to fit into those nooks and crannies because they can't do anything on their own, you know, or they can do some things, but you know what I mean? They're very dependent on me. And so family has had to be the forefront, the priority and everything else just fits in where it can. So that has been a high point for me and something that I want to take with me out of the pandemic, just I don't have to be going 100 miles a minute all the time. And I don't have to prioritize work the way that I did. It is possible to let work take a bit of a backseat and prioritize my family a bit more. The lows, though, have been the actual juggling, balancing, that kind of thing. Starting out, it was really tough. I was trying to still work during work hours, you know, I'm getting up, I got up early and did some work before the kids, but I was still trying to, you know, work in the mornings and the kids are up and they're trying to come get my attention and I'm trying to do this. And I would get frustrated and I yelled more than I would have liked and, you know, all of that. And so one thing that I noticed probably a month or two in, it's like, okay, this is not working, trying to parent and work At the same time, like that's not working. So let me block off my calendar and I've blocked off my calendar until one o'clock. And that's usually when my kids are down for their naps and doing their like quiet time and all of that and I will work at that time. That way I'm not trying to split my attention I'm not getting frustrated because you're interrupting this or, you know, I'm getting these emails while I'm trying to attend to you or any of that like just compartmentalizing in that way has been really helpful for me. I think to just the not having enough time, right? Like being a parent is a full-time job and then have my full-time job and then also my side business. Like I don't have enough time. So I don't think that the business or my nine to five job are getting nearly the full attention that they typically would. Like my kids are getting 100%, but I'm kind of, I'm doing what I can in the other fronts and learning to be okay with that. Like I am very much type A perfectionist that you would expect from a lawyer, right? That is me. But coming to terms with the fact that I cannot be 100% in this season and that's okay. And that doesn't make me a bad lawyer. And that doesn't mean that I am any worse at my job than a colleague, maybe who is in a different position and is still able to continue on business as usual. I'm doing my best and that's okay. And I came to terms with that pretty early on as well. And I said, my family is my priority here. I am doing what I can for work. And if my best is not good enough for them, that's okay. That is all right with me.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Isn't it interesting that no matter which side of the world we're on, our experience is so similar because I could resonate with so much of what you said there. And I know a lot of lawyers here that I've spoken to would also resonate with you. I also think there's a lot who could learn from what you've just said, who were still trying to tick all the boxes and not giving themselves a break and really finding it interesting. Well, I was going to say difficult, but I think it's impossible. It's impossible to do it all, isn't it? Be there for the children and do your full attention on your job and be the family person that you are as well and everything. It's just, I think we really have to accept that right now that's not possible and
SPEAKER_00:our best is good enough. Exactly, exactly. I think giving ourselves a lot of grace in this season because, you know, we're our own worst critics, like that voice in our heads that says, that voice we tell ourselves the worst things way worse than anyone externally would say to us and so we've got to learn to be kinder to ourselves especially when we're in a situation that is so abnormal right like i am not operating normally because this is not a normal situation right so i you know i did a little bit of work before we hopped on our call and i might do a little bit more before my kids get up they're usually up around eight so in the next half hour or so and then Eight to one is their time. You know, that is what I can do. And then I've got the time that they're sleeping and then they're up again. And then I might be able to do a little bit more later. But honestly, because things have dragged on as long as they have, I have not had the energy to do much in the evening. It's like I am wiped out after that. And so, you know, as you can imagine, I've not been hitting my billable targets, but I'm not going to overextend myself trying to do that, trying to hit this target that was set when we didn't have a pandemic. You know, I am doing my best, as we said, and that is what I can do for now. And hopefully everyone will see, you know, that we are in this abnormal situation and those types of things will be taken into account. But. Again, if not, that's okay.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's fantastic. I normally finish this by asking, you know, what have you learned that you think might be useful for others? But I think you probably just summed it up there. Would you?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I think so. That's that's exactly the lesson that I've taken away from all of this, that, you know, I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to try to do all of the things right. I used to go from here to there to this place and just running all of the time that I can be perfect. more balanced, have a slower pace and still be an effective mother, an effective wife, an effective lawyer.
SPEAKER_01:That's absolutely brilliant. Thank you. I've so enjoyed talking to you and thank you for being our first US guest. Yes. Thank you again for having me. This has been a lot of fun. You're very welcome.