The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
A series of conversations with those in the legal profession navigating the ups and downs of the law during and after lockdown. How has this changed the profession as we've emerged from the global pandemic?
The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
Friday Conversation with Elizabeth Rimmer, CEO of LawCare
It was a pleasure to catch up with Elizabeth and discuss all things mental health and wellbeing in the legal profession. Elizabeth shared a little about her pandemic journey, how LawCare has grown over the last 20 years, and been supporting lawyers this year.
You can find out more about LawCare here. They are an independent charity which exists to support the legal profession.
Very importantly Elizabeth shared details of the survey currently being conducted into the culture and practice of law and how this is impacting mental health. If you'd like to join us in helping to bring about changes in the profession, please do complete the confidential and anonymous survey here.
Podcast host Hannah Beko is a self-employed lawyer, coach and creator of the Lawyers Business Mastermind™ (the place for entrepreneurial lawyers to grow).
If you are a legal professional, please feel free to join our free Facebook Group for networking, tips and support - Legally Speaking, a group for the legal profession by clicking here.
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You can connect with Hannah on LinkedIn or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.
Hello everyone and welcome to another Friday Conversation. Today I'm joined by Elizabeth Rimmer who is the Chief Executive of Lawcare which is set up to support lawyers in terms of mental health and well-being. So it's very close to my heart as many of you will know. So thank you for joining us Elizabeth. Come and introduce yourself. Tell us all about yourself and Lawcare.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thanks very much for having me today. So I'm Elizabeth and I'm the Chief Executive at LawCare. So LawCare is a charity that supports and promotes good mental health and well-being throughout the legal community in the UK and Ireland. So we're here to support all branches of the legal professions, solicitors, barristers, judges, Silex lawyers, trademark attorneys, patent attorneys, people who are training to become lawyers, paralegal Anybody who works within the legal system in a non-legal role. So if you're in HR or finance or in a support capacity, we're also here to support you. And all the jurisdictions in the UK and the Republic of Ireland. And we're actually set up over 20 years ago. And a challenge for us at Lawcare is that not enough people know that we exist. So I used to be a solicitor in private practice. My husband is an in-house lawyer. And when I was applying for this job, six years ago now, I was doing my homework and I had never heard of law care and all my friends and former colleagues in the legal profession, not one person had heard of us or knew that we existed. I think that's beginning to change as the recognition of the importance of mental health and wellbeing has gone higher up the agenda. But that's something we're really keen to do is to raise the profile that we're here because what we do is really around two main areas of activity. One is supporting people in the legal profession with their mental health and wellbeing. and also doing work around prevention and education and helping legal practitioners and legal employers and organizations recognize why mental health is important. And in terms of our support, we've got a website, lawcare.org.uk. And on that, we've got lots of resources that you can access, all tailored specifically for people that work in the legal profession. But our main support service is a telephone helpline, confidential email, and web chat, where anybody who's worried about something can get in touch with us and speak to somebody in confidence about what's worrying them. And the special thing about law care is that everybody who answers the phone or responds to your query is somebody who has worked in the legal sector. So we get it. We know what this world is like. And often what people tell us is just talking to somebody who understands where they're coming from makes a huge difference just to get something off your chest and what we do is we listen we try and help you work out what's going on for you and what steps you may need to take to get help we haven't got a magic wand where we can fix everything but we can help you work out where you need to go next and the support that you need to get and then the other aspect of our work as i mentioned is around raising awareness and educating legal professionals and organizations better about mental health. And I think a key area that we often, the mental health agenda has gone so much bigger over the last couple of years, particularly in the workplace. And there are lots of obvious benefits to good mental health and wellbeing. But I think as lawyers, it's really important that everybody recognizes that as a legal professional, your mind is your greatest asset. So looking after your mental health is really important to help you do your best legal work. So if you've got poor mental health or you're feeling stressed or anxious, your judgment, your focus, your clarity of mind is going to be impacted by that. So you are less likely to be able to do your job as well. And I think that's a message that sometimes people don't take on board, that it's not just a nice to have. It's actually an essential requirement, I think, to being a competent lawyer is having good mental health. And that's a message that we're keen to get out there.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, absolutely. And I know Elizabeth and I could sit here and talk about this topic all day long. But yes, I often think, you know, when you look at an expensive piece of machinery, if you're a business that churns out widgets and you've got expensive machinery you service it you maintain it you look after it you switch it off sometimes so it gets a rest etc but for lawyers and legal professionals and anybody in that sort of professional service industry their mind is that machine and yet there's never proper thought given to maintaining it looking after it switching it off sometimes
SPEAKER_00:and I think there's part of that is you know in if you think about the legal mindset and the way lawyers think is that I think sometimes we think we're superhuman and that we, it's almost a badge of honor to think, oh yeah, I can put in a 10 to 12 hour a day. And then by Friday, you know, I'm still firing on all four cylinders. Well, you're not actually. And if you think about athletes, I think lawyers often like to compare themselves to peak, other peak sorts of people. If you're an athlete or you're training a race horse for the grand national, you wouldn't run that horse 10 hours a day and then expect it to win Monday to Friday and expect it to win the race on Saturday. That horse would be under a huge program of support like athletes are. They are supported mentally and physically to be in peak condition for top performance. And I think we need to think about that when we're lawyers, that we are not going to be at our peak, able to perform to our best if we are tired and have worked three days on the trot for 12 hours without a proper break and haven't had any time to do those things that help us maintain our mental health and wellbeing. But we tend to, what happens I think when people are under pressure where they feel they've got to get on with work is they start sacrificing and chucking out of their lives all of the things that actually help them stay on track. So, you know, we sacrifice the time with family or going to the gym or in current times, logging on for a Zoom Pilates session or whatever it is. We don't look after ourselves because we think, oh yeah, I'll just log in and just clear a few more emails and deal with that matter when actually you would have been better off spending that hour doing your pilates or going to choir practice or having a nice meal with your family or going out with your friends because we don't value those activities significantly enough I think because we don't value the importance of looking after our mental health and well-being and that's really where we've got to get to. We've got to value that in order to keep us at our best.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and as you and I were sharing actually just before we started, potentially that's gonna be one of the good things to see out of this year, this pandemic year, is that shift in values where people in the legal profession are starting to see a bit more how important it is to have the downtime, a bit of time with their families, have a meal with the children, drop the children at school, you know, those sorts of things. So it will be interesting after this year to see how the values of people might have shifted. But what I'm wondering, Elizabeth, is have you seen a sharp rise or change in your number of calls or email contacts or things this year since, you know, March and the lockdown period?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we have. So it's been an interesting journey for us at Lawcare in terms of our helpline and support channel. So we had our first call to the helpline about COVID on March the 10th. And now what we're seeing sort of six, seven months later, about 40% of people contacting us for help, there'll be a COVID related element to why they've got in touch. And we've seen that change over time. So at the beginning of lockdown back in March, there was lots of calls around I'm not being allowed to work from home. I'm anxious about having to go in on public transport or be in the workplace. Then the calls coming in about people worried about being furloughed and what that would mean for their future careers. But what we've seen over time now, actually the most common reason people getting in touch is concerns about their mental health deteriorating and finding it hard for many people. Working from home has great benefits, But when you're doing it all the time, some people find that really tough because they miss the social interaction in the workplace and that informal support we get from being around other people. As human beings, we are social animals and we're a group. We like to operate in groups and feel part of a group. So it can be very socially isolating not to be in the workplace. So we've seen that coming through in the calls. And increasingly concerns about the future, worrying about the uncertainty. Lawyers are, well, all humans are hardwired, I think, for certainty, but particularly legal professionals. The mindset is you're trying to fix problems, mitigate risk, work out what the next steps need to be, and you like all of that nailed down. And so it can be very difficult when you're used to adopting that mental attitude towards things to manage what is a movable feast and very uncertain times because it's very difficult to plan and work out what's going to happen because it's shifting all the time so I think what we've seen on the helpline is what you would expect really the challenges that people are facing on a day-to-day basis managing this and I think that's why it's particularly important. during these COVID times that we do a really good job of promoting mental health and wellbeing and encouraging people to really take that time to look after their mental health and wellbeing. And as you say, about values is what a lot of people are experiencing is they are recognizing how important it is to them to be home in time to see the children, to have those family meals. And I'm hoping that that will be when we come out of this, people will appreciate that those things are important and not sacrifice them in the ways that they have done. So I think will be a positive outcome from all of this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. So for you personally, Elizabeth, what have been your highs and lows of this pandemic 2020? Oh,
SPEAKER_00:good question. So my lows, I think, so at Lawcare, we already work from home. So I have an office at home, which is my space. And so obviously like everybody else in the country, when we went into lockdown, I found myself with my husband and my son at home as well. So I found that a bit difficult to adjust to having the dynamic of my day change really and having them at home and managing that. And I think like everyone, there have been a number of things that have been disappointing that haven't been able to happen, family events and weddings and celebrations and things like that so that's been a challenge but I think we've all felt that but I think there's actually been quite a lot of I wouldn't say I don't know if they're highs but I think there's certainly been lots of positives around for me and one of them is my parents used to live abroad in France and they moved back to the UK and they live just around the corner from us now and the day lockdown started my mum and I committed to going out every day for a walk with my dog and we go out every morning rain or shine we've only missed three so i spend an hour a day talking to my mum, which actually then stops her WhatsAppping and texting me all day long, asking me lots of other things. So, but I know it sounds quite corny, but I know in the future when she's no longer here, she's 78, but she's very healthy. But in 20 years time, I'll probably look back and think, wasn't that a great thing that I saw my mum every day? Especially when they've been living abroad for about 20 years. And so now they're back. So I've really enjoyed that. And I've enjoyed spending more time outside. I just had a birthday and my husband said, what do you want for your birthday? And I said, I would like a small book that is a guide to the most common trees in the United Kingdom, because I don't know what half these trees are. I can recognize basic ones like an oak tree. So I have just got this book and I go out now on my walks and once a day I try and identify a tree that I see, which is something I never felt I ever had time for or any inclination for. So I think I've appreciated, you know, the natural world a bit more than I had done. And actually, what a beautiful part of the country I live in. I live in the southwest of England in Bath. And I think that's been a real positive for me. And I think many people feel that. And I know that my daily walk and my appreciation of that will continue past lockdown down and I think I always used to see the dog walk as a bit of a chore oh I've got to get the dog out I'm so busy now it's I have to do that or I feel I really notice the difference in the day if I don't get out for that hour every day so I think that's and I think an opportunity to reflect like you mentioned on the things that really matter I've been in touch with friends that I hadn't seen for a long time we've been doing more connection I think it's made people reach out to each other a bit more um and then of course the great thing is that we'll have to look forward to when this is over i think lots of people are planning uh big gets togethers and events and things to celebrate uh those times when we can all be together so yeah but on the whole i haven't found it too difficult i think i've tried to adopt a mindset of thinking um I just have to take this as it comes. I can't plan into the future. I will control what I can control. There's no point me worrying about a lot of this because I can't do anything about it. And when we could see this lockdown was coming for November, I made a conscious decision. I'm not making any plans for November. I'm just going to just leave it as it is because otherwise you just land up feeling disappointed or you have to unpick all of that. And you just have to take it. it day by day and keep reminding yourself that it will pass. It will not last forever. Despite a lot of negative news that we're surrounded by, we live in an era of huge scientific advancement. There's never been vaccines developed as quickly as they have done for COVID. I think there's over 300 vaccines in development, 30 today I heard on the news in active clinical trials, final stages. There's been a huge global effort to share that information. And I think sometimes Sometimes we just see all the negatives and actually there are some positives around greater cooperation, people volunteering to be in these vaccine trials, the testing that will come forward and we'll learn to live with this and we'll come out of it. The pandemic in the 1918 Spanish flu didn't last forever. So this won't last forever. And I think you have the, I think my top tip though, really has been to limit your intake of reading stories about COVID.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:There's a lot of misinformation and too much information. So yeah, so I haven't found it. I think it's been an inch. I think you have to see this as an opportunity. It's a new part of life, something that's never happened. It'll be something for us to reflect on and tell our grandchildren about. We lived through the pandemic. And actually what you realize is that your things can change overnight in a where you never expected, but you just keep on going. I know there's been a lot of difficult times for many people, but the sun still rises every day and we just keep on going and it's not the end of everything.
SPEAKER_01:It's just
SPEAKER_00:difficult at times, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, again, as we sort of shared at the beginning, this could be a huge opportunity for the legal profession to change the way that it operates. And fingers crossed as well, change the terrible statistics about mental health and stress and things, which brings us very nicely on to what I really wanted to have a chat with you about, which is the survey that Lawcare has actively out at the moment. And obviously tell us a little bit more about it, but I just want everybody to know that it's open until the end of December. And we really do need as many people as possible to complete this survey, but I'll let Elizabeth tell you why.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, fantastic. So we've got a survey out at the moment called Life in the Law. And there's a website for it, lifeinthelaw.org.uk. And you can access the survey via our website. And what we want to do is understand more about the culture and practice of law and how that impacts mental health. We know from data from the US and Australia that lawyers have higher rates of stress, anxiety and depression. when compared to the general public. So the question is, why is that? I don't think it's because lawyers are genetically predisposed to poor mental health and well-being than anyone else. There's something about our mindset, the way we work, the culture in law that's having an impact. And if we can better understand those, then we can do something about trying to mitigate those factors so that we have healthier working environments in the law where people are thriving and not just surviving. So what we want is the more people that fill in the survey, we've passed a thousand people now, but we really want to get to 5,000 if not more, is if the more people that contribute to the survey and share their experiences of life in the law, that will give us a really good picture of what those issues are. And then what we're planning in May of next year is we will be releasing the results of the study and having some kind of call to action where we bring the legal community together and say, look, these are the issues. What are we going to do about them? How can we have some more joined up thinking in law and bring legal education, training and practice and regulation together? Because I think the journey for mental health, good mental health and legal profession starts on day one that you start thinking you want to be a lawyer. And I think we could be doing a much better job of educating people before they come into the profession about mental health and well-being and why it's important, providing better support, particularly for junior lawyers in those early stages of their careers, doing more to challenge the stigma. It's very hard for lawyers to speak up about what's bothering them because there's this sense of, you know, we solve other people's problems. We don't have any of our own. There's perfectionist tendencies. I'll be seen as weak or not good enough if I'm finding this difficult. And we need to get over that because the stigma around speaking up actually silences people and they are exposed experiencing these things on their own when actually there's so much help out there. And to help employers and workplaces see that mental health and wellbeing is just not a box. It's not just a box to be ticked. It actually makes business sense. And I think, you know, picking up from your point about the pandemic, we're moving, we're in way into the 21st century now, and this is a period of great innovation. And I think we've gone through a digital transformation in our working lives overnight with COVID. And the laws had to catch up really quickly. And I think people will remember how they were treated during the pandemic by their employers and their colleagues. And those organizations that seize this moment to think about innovation and the way they organize their businesses and the way people work and move into a new era, perhaps of a blended workforce where some people come in and some people are at home and you have days when everyone's together. They're the ones that are gonna move forward successfully. Organizations that think we just wanna go back to the way it always was are gonna get left behind because there's been a massive shift, I think, in our interaction with technology and that we need to keep with the program. So I think there's great opportunities to make things better. And I think what we've learned also from COVID is that one size does not fit all and that people have had to be more open about their circumstances in the workplace. So all of this research that we're doing, it's really to help us better understand, not just, we don't wanna just know that people are stressed anxious and depressed we want to know why so that then we can do something about it and actually lead to some positive change because I always remember about it was last year I went to the launch the International Bar Association did a big project into sexual harassment and bullying and they launched this report in London and I went along to it and they had a retired High Court judge stand up to introduce the report and she said 20 years ago the Law Society and the Bar Council in England and Wales got together and we set up a working group to look at sexual harassment and bullying in the legal profession and here we are 20 years later and we're still talking about it and you know obviously we still need to talk about it but she was basically saying things hadn't really changed and there'd been some complacency and I thought well this is where we are with mental health there's a huge amount of energy and enthusiasm for mental health and well-being when I think when I first came to law care I might do I don't know a handful of events every six months. Now, I would say on a daily basis, no is my new favorite word. We are being inundated with requests. And that may be the intensity of COVID, but there's been a big change. And so there's all this momentum and energy. And I think we've got to harness that to actually make lasting change. So we're not just talking about it, because even 20 years down the line, we still have the same issues and we're still talking about it in the same way then we failed in our mission it isn't about putting a sticking plaster over a problem it's about trying to fix that problem um and you know because the law is a very stimulating and rewarding career for many people we want the law to continue to attract a wide range of people into it it's such an important part of you know almost underpins civil society the legal system and the danger is is is that if we don't really harness this to make working conditions in the environment better, it might switch people off from coming into the law or they leave it, or we don't attract that wide range of people in. So I think that's why it's really important that we, we address the issues and that's what this is all about. So I'd like to say to everybody, if you feel you want to make a difference, you want to see things improve, this is your moment to make your voice count by taking part in the survey at only takes 15 to 20 minutes it's anonymous it's confidential you don't have to put your name on it we're not going to know who you are you can be completely candid um but you'd be really adding your voice uh to help us really think about where we can take this debate and come up with some tangible uh actions that are going to lead to some change
SPEAKER_01:thank you elizabeth yeah i think that's really important to say that it's not just collecting the data about how bad this problem is which you know in itself is important but it's about change it's about how can we make that change because I think you're absolutely right we don't want to just be talking about this in another five years or another ten years and have had more people leave the profession or more people just what I see is just live half a life really trying to struggle with their work their career and a life that doesn't make them very happy and of course you know failing health as well so it's just as you say it's a challenge chance for everybody to have a say whether they've suffered with issues in the past themselves or they are now or they haven't you know just to get get their voice heard so that you can make some real progress with it.
SPEAKER_00:absolutely
SPEAKER_01:yeah oh well thank you for sharing elizabeth just before we finish just remind everybody again and i'll put it in the notes but how where can they find this survey
SPEAKER_00:right so it's fitforlaw.org.uk so it has its own url if you just put that into google or you can go to our website just google law care lawcare.org.uk and there is a banner there where you hit research and you'll be able to get to the survey and also feel free to share the survey with your colleagues. If you're interested in sharing the survey around your firm, please get in touch with us. We've got a little resource pack with FAQs about the survey, a short article about it, some social media logos. So we can help you to promote it because the more we get the word out there, the better. And actually we're being very modest in our expectations when there are just alone, there are about 150,000 solicitors on the rolling in England and Wales, only if you take the entire legal sector across the UK, we must be talking at least a quarter of a million people. So we've got a thousand of them so far. We have a long way to go. And 5,000 would be the icing on the cake, but any more than that would just be nirvana, really. So the more, the merrier. So please, please just give us a little bit of time and fill that in because it really will make a difference.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I completely echo Elizabeth's comments there. Rather than us all just sort of struggle with things and sometimes moan to other people about them, this is something positive and proactive that you can get involved in and make some change. So thank you so much for coming to chat with me today, Elizabeth, and sharing that very important survey with us.
SPEAKER_00:Lovely. And thanks very much, Hannah. It's been really good to talk with you.
SPEAKER_01:You're welcome.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.