Friday Conversation with Charlotte Turnbull, Employment Lawyer specialising in workplace wellness

In a special episode for #TimetoTalk on 4 February 20201, Charlotte and I discussed workplace wellness, why organisations should care, and what they can do to be proactive in relation to employee wellbeing.

You can connect with Charlotte here and find her LinkedIn group Workplace Wellbeing.

Podcast host Hannah Beko is a self-employed lawyer, coach and creator of the Lawyers Business Mastermind™ (the place for entrepreneurial lawyers to grow).

If you are a legal professional, please feel free to join our free Facebook Group for networking, tips and support - Legally Speaking, a group for the legal profession by clicking here. 

Visit Lawyers Business Mastermind™ for more details and to join us.

You can connect with Hannah on LinkedIn or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome to another Friday Conversation. This week I have got a special guest with me picked on purpose because we've got Time to Talk Day coming up on the 4th of February. If you're catching this afterwards, personally this is a relevant topic at any time of the year so it doesn't matter if you've missed Time to Talk Day but it was a great excuse for me to be able to bring on Charlotte Turnbull who's an employment lawyer but also I know is really passionate about the same things as me. So come in Charlotte. Charlotte and introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 0:33

Hi Hannah, thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and to speak with you. As you said I'm an employment solicitor. I have been practicing for just over 15 years now. My speciality is employment law and one of the things I'm really really passionate about is creating great places to work. I've worked in many different places myself and I've worked for many clients that have had many problems within their workplace and I want to stop that. I want to educate employers on what they can do to get the best out of their employees. It will be great for business. It will affect their bottom line. They'll have efficient, engaged employees and everyone will be happy and it'd be a great place to work. One of the things in which they can really make a difference is in relation to employee wellbeing. And that's why this Time to Talk Day is so important. And we can use it as an opportunity to talk about mental health and break down the stigma surrounding poor mental health. Because I think that still very much exists, even though since we've been in a pandemic, There's been a lot of talk about it. I think there still is some stigma attached there, especially in certain industries, including the legal industry and other professional services industry, where it's very much seen as a weakness and people are reluctant to bring it up in the workplace.

SPEAKER_01: 1:52

Now you can see, nobody else can see that I'm nodding away at you. You know, people who listen to my podcast regularly will know that is an absolute passion of mine. And before we started recording, we did talk about the fact that I work with lawyers in relation to mental health, but I know you have a much broader client base than that. So what sorts of clients do you tend to work with normally?

SPEAKER_00: 2:16

So I work with a lot of big corporates. I've got some clients that are in the aviation industry and also the defense sector. So again, that is very typically male. You've got a lot of ex-military people working there. So again, there can be a real reluctance to talk about mental health, but actually a lot of those people may have experienced poor mental health because of their background in the military. I also work with companies in banking and finance and other smaller businesses well and I find actually it's often those smaller businesses that are more open to this because they are more sort of family run type businesses and it's really important that they have a nice atmosphere when they go into work. Sometimes the larger an organization gets that that gets lost a bit.

SPEAKER_01: 3:03

Ah, it's interesting you say that because I see that with some of my law firm clients. I've got some wonderful smaller law firms. Some of them might only be a few years old and their team is growing. And those managers and the managing partners are so keen to look after their people and to work on the wellbeing. And so I completely agree with you. I see the same thing in law. And isn't it interesting that the companies you work with and where you're seeing the biggest issues, which I think is what you were saying, tend to historically be male dominated I think there's a pattern there do you

SPEAKER_00: 3:39

absolutely um gosh I could go on about this subject for ages this isn't even employment law related um but in our society we we teach boys uh big boys don't cry and man up and all of those other really toxic statements that mean that men are really reluctant to mention that they're suffering or to seek help and then that ties in with the um the absolutely devastating statistic on male suicide and And it's really, really something that needs to be taken seriously. I've personally lost friends to suicide and it's heartbreaking that men tend to think they can't speak up and get help and that that's their way out. I just, yeah, I find that really difficult to deal with.

SPEAKER_01: 4:22

Oh, I'm with you a hundred percent. I've got three boys myself. And I remember hearing my mother-in-law a few years ago saying to one of the children, you know, big boys don't cry. And I have never run across my kitchen as quickly as I did to say, no, no, it's fine. Don't worry. Because no, I agree with you. We have to stop that cycle of crying. men not reaching out for help because although it's changing very very slowly there's still a big big big problem and we've had it in our family past history with suicide as well and all the wishes that people had understood how bad things were and reaching out and things and there was certainly an older generation who didn't do that but I think we do definitely need to change it now Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 5:13

absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 5:15

So playing devil's advocate for a second, why should the organisations that you work with care about this? They're just a business, they're running a business, they've got their widgets to produce all their aeroplanes to get off the ground. Why is it their business to care about people's wellbeing?

SPEAKER_00: 5:35

They'll get a lot more out of their employees. Their employees will do a better job. They will work harder. They'll be more efficient. There's been a big rise in, well, pre-lockdown. I mean, everything's been skewed because of the COVID pandemic, but certainly pre-lockdown when people are physically going into an office, there's a massive issue with presenteeism. And I've spoken to clients, individuals, employees before that have called me up and said, look, I just, I'm so overwhelmed by everything. but I don't want to take time off because I don't want my card to be marked that I've got poor mental health. So I'm just going into work and I'm sitting at my desk almost incapable of functioning because they don't know where to go for help. And if employers knew this and addressed this, that employee would be at their desk actually working hard and doing what they're supposed to do to make money for the business. Also people get on better. There'll be a lot more collaboration, better teams. It's a nicer environment to go into work. It really does matter, and it does have an impact on the bottom line. That said, there are some businesses that are not at all interested in doing this. They have a workforce that they want to control and micromanage, and they're probably never going to change. And their businesses perhaps won't be as successful as those other businesses that actually do take this seriously. And what we found as well is there can be a lot of problems that brew that no one really knows how to deal with. So the managers or possibly people in HR, but it tends to be more the line managers or supervisors, they don't know how to deal with it. So they bury their head. And nothing gets done. And then this problem gets bigger, and it gets bigger and bigger. And it's not until something serious happens, such as somebody actually has a breakdown or burnout, or some other kind of injury at work, or I don't know, resigned, and then maybe tries to claim some form of constructive dismissal because of bullying, harassment, stress, some other thing, that actually, if this had been dealt with six months, 12 months ago, training was put in place for managers, they the employee was supported through occupational health or therapy or some other form, we wouldn't get to this stage. Now, those difficult conversations are difficult, but it's really important to have them at an early stage and avoid getting to the state where a former employee might bring an employment tribunal claim against you, especially if that employment tribunal claim relates to A stress at work claim could be a personal injury claim, could be quite a valuable personal injury claim. It could also be a disability dependent on the diagnosis and how long it's been going on and what the impact of that poor mental health has on your day-to-day ability. And those claims are really valuable. In the employment tribunal, there's no cap on any disability discrimination type claim. So if a tribunal claim is brought, not only have you got to spend money on legal fees. You've got to have your managers spend their time dealing with it. You've got to get witness statements from people, but you've also got the risk that there might be a really high award of damages at the end. So it's really important to take this stuff seriously and to deal with it properly as early as possible. But to do that, you kind of need to know what to look out for, so that you know how to notice these things, how to notice that somebody's struggling, and what options you have available to you to make a difference. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 9:13

So what do you, with this particular day coming up this week, this Time to Talk day, what would you say organisations could be doing? You know, perhaps using this week as a platform, but obviously they need to be doing it all the time. What sort of steps do you think they could be taking?

SPEAKER_00: 9:30

Well, actually, on the Time to Talk website, there's some really good resources on there. And as you know, this year's theme is about the power of small talk. So I think just reaching out to people, especially as we're all, a lot of us working remotely at the moment, it can be quite isolating. So you're reaching out to people, picking up the phone to them, maybe doing a Zoom or something like that, and asking people how they are. And we've got into a really bad habit of when someone asks how we are, we say, we're fine, thank you. And that's it. Actually, listen to people. Ask them questions, ask them good questions. You know, how are they really doing? Or, you know, rather than just saying how are you, maybe ask them, I don't know, what are your plans for later? Or what did you do yesterday? Or something that actually starts a conversation. Walking and talking is a really big one. I try to do quite a few of those and I appreciate we're in a pandemic, so we can't really... do that that easily, but you can still go out for a walk and take your phone with you. So you're outside getting some fresh air and some exercise that's good for your mental health, and you're using that time to also check in on somebody else. So I think firstly, organisations need to think about who their workforce are, where they are, and actually checking in on people, having those small conversations. asking good questions, actually listening to what's being said. But there's also a load of resources on the Time to Talk website. So they've got a mental health quiz. You can ask all of your employees to do that. And again, that just, I don't think your employer even gets the results of that. It's just a bit of fun. But again, it's a conversation starter. If everybody's taking this online quiz, it educates them and it starts that conversation. There's also various things like posters and other things that you can put up, but we are, the majority of us are not in our workplaces at the moment, so that's not all that helpful. But yeah, I think it's really about just checking in with people, raising awareness. You can send an email to your organisation explaining that this day is happening, why it's important, what the organisation's going to do, what individuals can do. So all employees are responsible for their own health and safety as well as the organisation being responsible for that. So yeah, reminding colleagues that they can check in on their colleagues too, and just start having these conversations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:55

Yeah. I think, I think that's a fantastic point. I mean, I love their theme, the time to talk theme, and obviously it's been something that's been, been pushed a lot this year, but, but for good reason, I, I'm a huge believer. And, and as I think I mentioned, I've mentioned in somebody else's podcast, I think not, not in my own, when I was interviewed by Emma Langdon, we talked about spending on wellbeing by businesses and you might not like this, but we both said, you know, stop spending money on wellbeing or stop throwing money at it until you actually work out what's working and do something useful not just for the sake of it but you know my point especially this year with those I've been working with is always just bring it to a conversation you know stop necessarily you don't always need the power points and lots of facts and lots of tips and tools I mean I'm a big fan of those but sometimes people just can't take that in right now and they just need to talk and so just having either an open forum to talk or as you said perhaps the even on that day, suggesting to staff members that they take a 20 minute coffee break and call up one of their colleagues and just ask them how they are, how their week's been, how lockdown three is going. I think that's a fantastic opportunity for all organisations to do that. And what I always like, as you said, the answer about fine, I did speak to one law firm owner who said they'd banned fine. Whatever you say, when someone asks how you are, you can say anything, but you're not allowed to say fine, which is good, I like that. But I often find if you just ask a second time, if you get the slightest little indication that maybe they're not telling you the truth, you sort of, really, really? And sometimes you get a bit more, but I agree with you 100%. And it would be a great opportunity for those businesses that either aren't doing a lot or they want to do more to use this week as an opportunity to get their people talking.

SPEAKER_00: 13:46

Yeah, absolutely. I think the point you made there about spending on mental health is a really good one. What I found, there is a change in... businesses approach to this but previously where we had larger organizations that had a big budget they almost treated it as a tick box exercise we'll throw a bit of money at that that's done we've done that now and actually that's really ineffective and quite frankly can be a waste of money because there's not a one-size-fits-all approach to this there are many there's so many different factors that affect businesses um you know the demographic of their staff whether they're male female the age of their staff um whether they are all full-time workers or part-time workers what their background is what the industry is that they operate in um and what people's outlooks are you know if you've got a really young workforce they're going to value something uh like regular team drinks probably more than um if you've got a middle-aged workforce that have got lots of child care responsibilities there they perhaps aren't able to go to those team drinks so you need to look at actually who your workers are and what's important to them. And one way to do it is to just ask them. It's so simple. You know, you can do team drinks, you can do yoga on a Wednesday lunchtime and you can put some fruit in the office, but that's not going to work for everybody. So why don't you just ask them? Ask them what's important to them and give them something they're actually going to value.

SPEAKER_01: 15:08

Oh, I could not agree with you more, Charlotte. It's exactly what I say. For lots of reasons, because A, yes, don't spend money on something that they don't want and they're not going to go to because that's not useful for anyone. But B, because it gives them a sense of ownership and it makes people feel valued. It makes them feel they've got some autonomy over their own mental health and how they deal with it. You know, it's about creating a supportive environment and what better way to be supportive than to say, well, what do you need, guys?

SPEAKER_00: 15:35

Yeah. It's so simple. I don't know why people don't do this. I'm

SPEAKER_01: 15:42

with you. I'm totally with you. So on a personal level, Charlotte, how has lockdown ones, twos and threes since March, how has it been for you? What have been your highs and lows?

SPEAKER_00: 15:53

It's been a bit of a mixed bag, actually. I am a bit of an introvert. So to begin with, I found the first lockdown quite nice. I've got a space at home to set up a home office and I could focus. It was all very quiet and I was beavering away at my work and it was lovely. I was in my own little world, focusing on everything and not being interrupted. But now, as now we're in lockdown free, I'm a bit lonely, if I'm honest. I do miss the socialisation that you get in the office. I miss going out for lunches with people. So it's been a bit mixed. I also, in the first lockdown, took up the couch to 5k challenge. So I was super proud of myself for doing that, which is great. Really, really found I enjoyed it actually. Never thought I'd enjoy running, but it was a really good thing to get up and out in the morning before everybody else was up and just have some time to think. It was quite transformational, actually. I know people have talked about this before, but I didn't get it. And it was, you know, some really good time for me to get out and clear my head and to get my thoughts straight in my head. So that was good. So, yeah, initially, I enjoyed being at home. I enjoyed having some time on my own to focus. I enjoyed having a lot more time to... things for myself such as the running. Sadly in December I suffered an ankle injury so I've had to hang up my running shoes which has not been good for my mental health and the fact we're now in a lockdown in the winter has not been good for my mental health either so yeah it's been a bit of a mixed bag actually and I'm looking forward to getting back to some kind of normality and I think for me the ideal would be a hybrid working situation.

SPEAKER_01: 17:40

Yes. Well, I see that as the future personally for a lot of people. Even those of us that have loved working at home. I mean, I've done it for nine years working at home and I love it generally. But even most of the week I was out once or twice at least. But, you know, for everyone, I think I think we'll see a hybrid. when we return, if you like, which personally I think will be good for mental health. I think it will give people that chance to, yes, see their colleagues, to have a bit of a commute, have a change of scene, but also have more time maybe for the exercise or the meals with family or just to potter about the house and get things done as

SPEAKER_00: 18:19

well. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's right. And I think the lockdown has made many of us reassess what's actually important and how we want to prioritise certain aspects of our life. And I, for one, am working, and it is a work in progress, working on improving my self-care and not being busy, busy, busy all the time and actually taking some time for

SPEAKER_01: 18:40

myself. Oh, wonderful. I might encourage you to visit my website for some tips on that.

SPEAKER_00: 18:47

Definitely. I can definitely use any help that's going. I

SPEAKER_01: 18:51

will follow that up for you. If anyone else is interested, the website is authenticallyspeaking.co.uk. And there is also for fellow lawyers like Charlotte is a free Facebook group where we all support each other and talk about self-care tips and things. So, yeah, an excellent plan, Charlotte. We all need some more self-care, even those of us that have been, you know, doing things for a few years to take care of our mental health, we've had to step them up in lockdown and keep going with them, definitely. So thank you so much for coming to join me. It's been a fantastic opportunity to talk with Time to Talk Week this week, but something that people and organisations should think about every single week of the year, of course. But thank you for coming to chat. Oh, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_00: 19:39

Thank you so much for having

SPEAKER_01: 19:40

me. I've really enjoyed it.