The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
A series of conversations with those in the legal profession navigating the ups and downs of the law during and after lockdown. How has this changed the profession as we've emerged from the global pandemic?
The Law in Lockdown and Beyond, with Hannah Beko
Friday Conversation with Steve Lawlor, Mental Health Lawyer and MD of Lawlor's Law Limited
In this episode of Friday Conversations, I had a great conversation with Steve about what a Mental Health lawyer is and the sorts of work he gets involved with.
I asked Steve to tell us how he "decompresses" after a day dealing with very challenging work. He shared the importance of creating space away from work and having strong boundaries around work time and home time.
Steve also told us a little about his journey in starting his own business Lawlor's Law Limited.
He is also the host of the Legal Wolf Podcast talking about the stigma around mental health and how to challenge it.
About your host, Hannah Beko
Podcast host Hannah Beko is a self-employed lawyer, coach and creator of the Lawyers Business Mastermind™ (the place for entrepreneurial lawyers to grow).
Hannah has also created the Build Your Legal Business Podcast which you can find under the Resources section of www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk and on all usual podcast channels.
If you are a legal professional, please feel free to join our free Facebook Group for networking, tips and support - Legally Speaking, a group for the legal profession by clicking on https://www.facebook.com/groups/3815090921886296
You can connect with Hannah on LinkedIn or visit www.authenticallyspeaking.co.uk space
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Hello everyone and welcome to another Friday Conversation. Today I'm talking to Steve Lawler who is a mental health lawyer. Now I'm personally really excited to hear more about what this actually means because although I speak to a lot of people and talk a lot about mental health and law in particular, I don't know really what a mental health lawyer does. So I'm going to hand over to Steve and ask him to tell us all a bit more about himself but also for my benefit tell us a bit more about what a mental health lawyer does please Steve but thank you for joining me.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Hannah. It's a privilege. So first of all, as Hannah said, my name is Steve Lawler. I'm a mental health lawyer and managing director of my own company, Lawler's Law Limited. And I also run a mental health podcast. called The Legal Wolf Podcast, which talks about mental health, not only in the UK, but around the world, the various stigmas associated to mental health and how we can challenge the stigma to normalise the conversation. So that's me in a nutshell. In terms of what a mental health lawyer is, so this is a question that I get asked a lot, because when you say you're a mental health lawyer, people's first question is, what's that? because you don't hear of many it's not a module that you can take on the LLB and there's not many modules on the LPC that give you the option to do mental health law so I essentially represent people who are detained under our mental health act either in a hospital on a section or they're out in the community on a community section and they want to come off their section to either leave hospital immediately and live as normal of a life as possible to be treated in hospital voluntarily without all the restrictions in place i.e forcibly medicated if they don't consent to it or if they're in the community and they're on a community order they want to be taken off that so they can live like everybody else so that's essentially the what a mental health lawyer does in very basic, basic form.
SPEAKER_00:Really interesting. As you say, you just don't come across many and I didn't know what you got involved in. How do you get into that sort of work? Is it something you always knew you wanted to do or were you in another area and moved into it?
SPEAKER_01:So I didn't know mental health law existed. I was on a VAC scheme at a local law firm on a two-week placement and a new paralegal was being shown around the office and he was being introduced as a mental health paralegal and then the following day he left and I was asked if I wanted the job as mental health paralegal, obviously said, yes, I just finished the LPC. It was perfect timing for me to get into a law firm. But I didn't know it existed until that moment, really. But it's probably one of the most rewarding and fascinating jobs that you can do because you're representing people an individual who is at their most vulnerable when you see them. They've either had a psychotic episode, they've had a breakdown, they can be elderly, they can be young children, as young as 12, 13, 14, and you can help them get back to a normal life, be that by getting them some leave so they can go out with staff or go out on their own, or you can instruct independent experts to find accommodation for them to be discharged to. It's very rewarding and it's a very satisfying job.
SPEAKER_00:It's fascinating. How do you, I know we've gone completely off script here. I hope you don't mind. I just find topics and I think, wow, I want to know more about this. So maybe other people do. How do you decompress at the end of the day or the week or whatever, when you're carrying that sort of work with you?
SPEAKER_01:So pre-COVID, it was far easier. because you're driving from hospital to hospital so you're not stuck in an office you're going from one hospital to the other you're signing up clients you'll be in medical records you're reading a lot of reports and then you're attending tribunals managers hearings to advocate for your client so when you finish for the day and then you get in your car to drive home that is the time for you to decompress or you're driving from one hospital to the other and you get to decompress that way. Since COVID, the lines have been very blurred. A lot of the hospitals were shut, no external visitors. Some still are shut to external visitors, not allowing any in, some are. So in terms of switching off and decompressing, you you kind of have to either have someone to bounce ideas off in your own home so if you're living with parents just just to talk to them to just try and decompress and switch off and talk about something else but it i mean and another way potentially is your office is in a separate room so as soon as you finish work you shut the door so you know work's finished and then you you've got to split the one thing that I use is I have two mobile phones one for personal one for work which as soon as it comes five half five the work phone goes on silent and that's when work stops and your personal life continues but it's I've certainly had to adapt in the last 18 months even though I've I've worked from home for the last four or five years.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So what I'm hearing there that I love actually is good boundaries. That's what you're saying. Create good boundaries, whether it's with the commute home or at least the commute from what you finished into something else, having a different room at home, having the different phone even. So you say, right, this is work time. This is home time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Well, I'm sure many of the people listening would all benefit from better boundaries. Lawyers traditionally have terrible boundaries. So I'm sure everybody would benefit from that. But it's good to hear that, you know, even in a perhaps even more emotionally challenging role. that you have compared to, I know, you know, my family lawyers have a difficult time when they're dealing with child and family issues as well. You know, I'm just a humble property lawyer, but even sometimes, you know, my clients can get emotional too. But to hear that somebody who's in such an emotional work as yourself, and that's the way you do it is good boundaries. You know, hopefully that will inspire other people as well. Yeah. Yeah. So we started to almost get back onto topic then, onto the script, as it were, which was, you know, my first question to you was going to be, how much did you work from home before the pandemic and March 2020? And therefore, how much of a shock to the system was lockdown when it came around?
SPEAKER_01:So I've worked from home since July 2018. But lockdown still came as a shock. to me because even though I was working from home and doing all the admin from home I was still going out and about seeing patients in hospitals and that was essentially the majority of my week going out and about driving from hospital to hospital and then as soon as lockdown came it was as if right that's it no more visits no more anything um And the two, three weeks, maybe a month leading up to when we were put in lockdown, when we were going out, obviously COVID was still around and you're talking to the doctors, you're talking to the nurses. And then when you're in tribunals, you're talking with the panel beforehand and you're thinking, should we actually still be going around? Should we still be going around? hospitals where there's vulnerable people should we not have just stopped doing these and gone straight to as it was telephone initially then it went to video so yeah I think the initial two weeks of lockdown was a novelty it was something new you kind of like it but then as it went on for it was what, five, six months, the first lockdown, it starts to get the norm and you just end up getting in a routine. So I was living on my own at the time. You're just basically sitting in front of a computer seven hours a day, waiting for stuff to come in, to keep yourself busy, to keep yourself occupied because You can't go out to hospitals. All we could really go out for is one hour of exercise. So it was tricky. And I feel for anyone who, well, not only in the first lockdown, but in the subsequent two after, if you live alone, it's tough. being on your own, but you just get through it. I mean, thank God for Amazon Prime for me.
SPEAKER_00:My goodness. Well, it's no surprise that so many people have become delivery drivers in the last year. No wonder they need so many. I mean, they turn up at my house sometimes two or three times a day. Oh, I know before we started recording, you were sharing with me about the difficulties of doing things like tribunals on video and not being in person with your clients. Did you want to say a bit about how that has been difficult through lockdown?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. So initially when lockdown came into force, we had telephone hearings to begin with. which were even more difficult than video because you can't see your client your client can't see you and we were doing files whereby we had a file open it was open and shut and we wouldn't even see the person then it went to video and then video slightly better because at least you can see the client but more importantly the client can see the tribunal panel they can see me and the community team who attend as well but it's not the same as being there in person because when you're there in person you you get to see how your client reacts in terms of their emotions their behaviors and you get more of a feel of the room Whereas on video, it's very clinical, it's very clean. It's very difficult to express emotion or pick up on emotions through a video screen. It's far better if you're there, sat next to your client, so you can reassure them a lot easier.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's what I was picking up from what you were saying earlier is actually it's the support. It's making that client feel supported by you is obviously much easier in person than it is on video.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So do you see it going back to in person for your work or more so? I
SPEAKER_01:don't see it going back to how it used to be. Because the legal aid agency have saved a ton of money and the tribunal service has saved a lot of money, it won't go back to how it was because they haven't had to pay out mileage to tribunal panels, to solicitors going from hospital to hospital. So I think there will be some form of a hybrid model. whereby you would have face-to-face hearings if you need an interpreter or a British Sign Language interpreter or if it's a very complex case. And I think the rest of them would be on the video if they're Section 2 cases, if they're automatic referrals, if they're community patients. So I think there's going to be a balance between the two. But I suspect... If you want a face-to-face hearing, you would have to write to the tribunal service to request it, and then it's up to them whether they grant it. And then depending how many they grant, they will slowly but surely make the margins smaller and smaller, so it's even harder to ask for a face-to-face hearing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, no, understood. So what have you found have been your highs and lows of the last 18 months?
SPEAKER_01:So I set up my own company in July last year. So it was right in the middle of the pandemic. People think you're nuts for doing it, but there is no better time to set up a company in the middle of a pandemic.
SPEAKER_03:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Because if you set up in the middle of a pandemic, your overheads are extremely low. And if you get through a pandemic, then once we're out of the pandemic, you will fly. Which, I mean, in terms of highs, obviously being a consultant, Amanda Crookshank solicitors, doing my mental health work. I did a talk for the UN Peacekeeping Mission in Mali on men's mental health.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:set up my podcast which is in 71 countries yeah over 26,000 listeners it's been phenomenal it really has and if anyone is thinking of going self-employed do it because you will not regret it it was the best thing I ever did You have the freedom, you have the choice, the flexibility to choose what you want to do. And that is just priceless, absolutely priceless.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I love that, Steve. You may know I have another podcast, Build Your Legal Business, which is specifically for self-employed lawyers. So perhaps I will invite you to share more of your journey on that podcast. Not that I don't mind you mentioning how wonderful it is on this one. I'm, you know, I'm a huge advocate for self-employment. I'm actually coming up to my 10th anniversary in February next year. 10 years self-employment. Yeah. So yeah, I'm a huge advocate for it myself. So perhaps we will have a more in-depth conversation about how it will setting up and you know the ups and downs of that on the other podcast perhaps but yeah you know I'm totally with you you know I've heard for years that you know setting up any business in the recession is about the best time to do it and as you say why not recession and pandemic perfect yeah fantastic so what have been the what have been the low points and I know you mentioned living on your own is very hard at the start of the pandemic but what have you found difficult this past 18?
SPEAKER_01:I think going self-employed in the first year of business, you have that pressure. You want to do the best that you can. You're trying to get work in. And you kind of work so hard that you kind of lose some of the boundaries between work and personal. And I think once you get your head around the fact that being self-employed, there's obviously a lot more responsibility, you tend to live with it a lot easier. And that's what I found initially. When you go self-employed, you have people saying, oh, well, I hope it works out. Why are you going self-employed? They start to put the doubt. And that's kind of a low point. Another low point was obviously living on my own, even though I obviously coped, managed. You just miss that social interaction. hence why now I've moved back in with my parents and currently selling my own house just to have yeah yeah just to have obviously there'd be more financial security once the house sells but yeah I think if it wasn't for the pandemic I don't think I would have well I wouldn't have sold to move in with my parents I would have sold to move to a bigger place but I think that the pandemic has changed the mindset in
SPEAKER_00:that. Wanting you to have more security?
SPEAKER_01:More security but also having people around you because of what we've all been through in the last 18 months with Covid it kind of refocuses your mind as to what's important and what isn't necessarily that important
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah no absolutely i had a very similar conversation with with a podcast guest um earlier you know exactly the same or resetting of values if you like or re restating or realizing again what's important we may have forgotten in all our busy lives um yeah Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So I have before I ask my last question, which you know about, I'm going to throw this one at you. I don't think it'll I don't think it's a curveball for you. But given all your work in mental health and with the very extreme other side of the spectrum, if you like, if we talk about I mean, I talk about mental health on the sort of stress and anxiety side all the way through to the work you do. What do you think about lawyers and the legal profession and how stressful it is as a profession and the suffering with mental health that I think happens? What's your view on it?
SPEAKER_01:So I think the law is not inclusive of mental health. It's exclusive. I mean, a clear example is me on my training contract and I'm in my family seat for six months and I was driving into work just wanting to crash my car and not be here anymore because it was really bad. But because you're a lawyer, you don't feel like you can talk about it because you're going to be accused of one of three things either you're weak you can't do your job and you would lose the respect of your fellow peers because they are of a certain generation that don't understand what mental health actually is and the impact it can have um I feel there is a disconnect between employees and management, which I don't know how easy you can get around that. It's very difficult. The sooner lawyers learn to realize that, yes, your clients are important, But so are you.
SPEAKER_03:And
SPEAKER_01:if you don't look after yourself, how on earth can you look after a client? Lawyers need to start putting themselves first and looking after their own mental well-being first. Because if you don't look after you, how are you supposed to look after a caseload of 68 to 100 clients? So I think, I would like to think we're starting to change because I think the younger lawyers coming through, the paralegals, the trainees, the newly qualified, have that understanding of mental health. But it's going to take time for the whole profession to adapt to that, but also accept that this needs to be discussed. Mental health needs to be discussed just as much as physical health.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. I think we are seeing the shoots of change. You know, for example, I know I've got so many younger lawyers coming to work with me, you know, coaching on the anxiety and stress, which is, you know, not what I expected five or six years ago. I thought I'd be working with people who were, you know, 35, 40 at that stage where they're trying to juggle family commitments and what does the future hold and things. But actually, I have so many, whether they're paralegals, trainers, or newly qualified is coming and they're investing in themselves saying, I want to manage my stress and anxiety and things now. You know, and it's fantastic. So I totally agree with you. The younger generation are aware of it. They're not afraid to talk about it, you know, and that is wonderful. And I have seen some shoots. I know you mentioned the sort of issue between employees and managers and things. And I know I saw, I think it was on LinkedIn, a lady sharing that her manager had messaged her to ask her how she was. And the culmination of that discussion was her manager saying, you need to take a couple of weeks off. thought how brilliant is that you know the manager asked they probed and this was just through text messaging they probed and they got to the point where they said you need to take a break now was was that in the uk yeah
SPEAKER_01:wow okay
SPEAKER_00:yeah so there are some out there it is
SPEAKER_01:happening good because i think it is the change that's needed I mean, I feel sorry for people at university now. Studying a law degree, they're looking for training contracts. The stress, but the pressure on them to secure a training contract, it's unbelievable. I mean, who knows the SQE... might alleviate a lot of that pressure and stress for for for students um and then you've got the solicitor apprentice route as well um but there is a lot of pressure on students but well all students
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah i think you're absolutely right there is but i hope okay everyone having more conversations like this and like you do on your podcast you know we'll we'll keep um keep helping to improve things so final question what have you learned in the last 18 months about yourself or about your work or your profession um
SPEAKER_01:so i think in terms of what i've learned from the profession i've learned that the legal profession when it's pushed it can
SPEAKER_00:it
SPEAKER_01:get into the 21st century this is the quickest I've known the legal profession move they've embraced technology it's like wow I mean they've finally arrived it's took a global health pandemic to get us there but we are finally there and hopefully we will start to see some benefits and rewards from it In terms of what I've learned about myself, I've learned that I can run a company, I can run it successfully. I've had to take on a lot of new knowledge about accounting. I've grown tremendously as a person over the last 18 months with everything being self-employed, with going through a global pandemic. It's been very refreshing to be self-employed and you're learning as you go, but it's very rewarding as you pick up new things, as you learn. I've learned a lot in the last 12 months. I genuinely do believe it is the best decision I ever made to go self-employed. It really was. Oh,
SPEAKER_00:well, I'm personally very pleased to hear that. Loving the model as much as I do. Yeah. Thank you for joining me, Steve. It's been such a pleasure to get to know you and have this chat with you. And I think perhaps we will have another chat another time.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely. It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. If anyone else would like to join me for a Friday conversation to talk about your experiences in lockdown, please do get in touch. Thank you.