Ep 5 - Melissa Murray (Pt 1)

Melissa Murray is a superstar in the legal profession.  In Part One of this two-part conversation, Melissa Murray takes us along on her journey from receiving a phone call asking her to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee during Justice Kavanaugh’s tumultuous confirmation process through her live remarks in the Senate Chamber.  She shares her personal story growing up in Florida as the daughter of immigrants to her appointment as the interim dean of UC Berkley Law School at the age of 40 as well as her current position as Professor of Law at NYU.  During Part One, Melissa tackles issues of gender and race within the law and society at-large, as well as how we can better bring these issues to life in the law school classroom.  Enjoy this episode of Iron Advocate as we continue to explore how lawyers can kill it in the law without it killing us.  Check out Melissa’s own podcast, Strict Scrutiny, on your favorite podcast platform or by visiting https://strict-scrutiny.simplecast.com. You can follow Melissa on Twitter @ProfMMurray.

Transcript

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Melissa Murray is a superstar in the legal profession.

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In part one of this two part conversation,

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Melissa takes us along on her journey from receiving a

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phone call,

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asking her to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee during

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justice kavanaghs tumultuous confirmation process.

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Through her live remarks in the Senate chamber,

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she shares her personal story growing up in Florida as

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the daughter of immigrants to her appointment as the interim

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Dean of UC Berkeley Law School at the age of

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40 and her current position as professor of Law at

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NYU.

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During Part 1, Melissa tackles issues of gender and race

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within the law and society at large,

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as well as how we can better bring these issues

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to life in the law school classroom.

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Enjoy this episode of iron advocate as we continue to

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explore how lawyers can kill it in the law without

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it killing us.

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You're listening to

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iron advocate, the podcast dedicated to you,

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the trial attorney. Allstate. Visionary Warrior Unfiltered no holds barred.

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Iron advocate. Join Bob live at Jeffrey Bowl and today's

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top legal minds on

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a journey to discover how to kill it in the

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law without it killing you.

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Because being the best advocate for others begins with being

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the best

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advocate for

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yourself. Welcome Melissa. Thanks for

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having me.

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Thanks for being on, we really appreciate it forward to

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it.

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Let's do this Melissa. How did it come to be

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that you were asked to testify before the Senate Judiciary

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Committee on September 7th,

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2018, and publicly take a position against Judge Kavanaugh?

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I was at the gym I,

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you know, we had just moved to New York from

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the Bay Area and I was at the gym and

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I got this call from a number DC number that

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I did not recognize and it was from one of

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the Democrats either Feinstein probably find some tissues,

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the ranking member and just wanting to know if I

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might be willing to testify and if I would be

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willing.

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What would I be willing to say?

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And so you know, we sort of like.

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Well, you know what's the scope of the hearing all

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about and they they really wanted someone to talk about

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justice.

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Now justice cab now then Judge Kavanaugh's record on reproductive

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rights and actually knew a fair amount about his record.

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I did not think it was an especially promising record

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for expanding reproductive rights.

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I think it was more likely to curtail reproductive rights.

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And so I said, I'd be happy to

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say that time

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you asked you asked to testify.

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Then you came down and testified.

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Had the confirmation hearing taken.

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The turn that we saw happen.

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The testimony came on the Friday and that was like

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the last normal day of that confirmation process.

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The next over the course of that weekend,

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everything went sideways with the allegations from Doctor Blazy Ford.

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And, you know, it really again,

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I think sort of overwhelmed the entire process.

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We weren't actually talking anymore about his record as a

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judge,

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which I thought was already problematic.

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If you cared about some of these things,

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like you know, the scope of executive power or reproductive

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rights like I already thought,

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that was troubling, but. That just got overwhelmed and overshadowed

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by these allegations,

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which really were sort of about,

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you know, if these allegations are true,

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should this person be seated on the highest

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court in the United States?

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So Melissa, when you got that call and you made

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the decision to go down and testify,

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did you have concern or anxiety about any blowback that

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you might get?

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You know, professionally or personally,

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given that you were a Yale law grad as was.

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You know, then judge now justice capital.

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Well, it was not lost on me that you know

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Yale had come out very forcefully,

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uhm? Celebrating his nomination. I don't want to say that

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they were supporting him per say,

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but you know, he was a graduate.

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He's an alumnus and they were very full throated in

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there.

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Praise of him, at least when it was first announced

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an you know of course they would later backtrack a

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little bit on some of this.

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Uhm, but you know, I expected that sort of thing.

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I mean, like institutions are rightly proud of their alumni.

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When something of this magnitude happens and you know it,

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had it been. Another judge likes a judge,

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the poor from the 6th Circuit,

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who is a Berkeley law grad.

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I'm sure the University of California,

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Berkeley would have issued some kind of statement signaling.

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Their pride in having an alumnus nominated to the Supreme

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Court.

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So there was that, you know.

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Obviously, when you testify in a public stage like that,

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you invite a lot of attention from people that you

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have never met,

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and so I worried about that.

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Certainly testifying about reproductive rights is a flashpoint for many

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people and defense of reproductive rights,

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and especially abortion rights, can.

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Engender a lot of attention.

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I'm a lot of it unwanted,

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some of it even violently negative in its way.

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So I did worry about that.

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I also recognize that in testifying against judge now,

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justice Cavanagh like, I'd pretty much like be signaling like

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I was.

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I would never send a student to clerk for him.

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He would never. Happily receive a letter of recommendation for

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me,

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and so yeah, I kind of knew that going into

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it,

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but I thought it was really important that.

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The things I had to say should be on the

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record.

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I mean, I think you know this is someone whose

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words whose decisions will have an impact on.

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People who look like me.

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People who don't look like me.

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People who are really well resourced and mostly people who

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aren't really well resourced and those people needed to have

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a voice in that hearing.

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And, you know, if I could do that,

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then I needed to do that.

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So, Melissa, you know wherever people fall on the political

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spectrum listening to you recount.

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This tells all of us in the business of on

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out of it that it took real courage an guts

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to go down there and give that testimony period full

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stop. So can you speak to your preparation?

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Both the actual written testimony as well as your emotional

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preparation?

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To go down there and give that testimony and you

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know what it felt like in the moment.

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And maybe in the moments afterward.

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Let me first say that as difficult or challenging as

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it was for me,

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there were so many other people testifying that day and

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I want to particularly call out the students from Parkland

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and the young people who testified about the impact that

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decisions from the Supreme Court would have on their lives.

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There's a young man who was testifying about the role

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that the ACA had played in covering a particular treatment

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that was absolutely vital to his health.

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He had a pre existing condition and without the Affordable

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Care Act some coverage.

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And it's elimination of ineligibility for pre existing conditions.

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He wouldn't be covered at all at any of that

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was heroic.

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The students of Parkland and I was especially interested in

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them because my cousin's son was a junior at Parkland

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when the shooting happened on February 14th,

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2018. And so you know,

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my family lived with that and to see those students

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there testifying about what gun control decisions.

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Magic diamond and had meant in their lives I think

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was just absolutely heroic and you know they were subject

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to all of the same kinds of challenges that I

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would be subjected to. But they were.

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They were kids, and so I just felt like whatever

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difficulties I would encounter,

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it sort of paled in comparison to what they were

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doing and what they felt they had to do for

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their fellow students for their generation.

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and I thought their their testimony that day was absolutely

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heroic in terms of my preparation.

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Gosh, like I I was muted so many times,

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uh, I, I'd never testified before a congressional committee before.

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And so you know what?

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A debut. And so I just did not want to

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get it wrong.

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And so, like in any situation where I'm just sort

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of like you have a kind of once in a

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lifetime performance.

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I just kind of put my head down and worked.

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I just my family we the week before had been

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Labor Day and we had gone to Hershey,

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PA to go to Hershey Park and.

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The whole way down I was writing my testimony on

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a laptop with like a portable charger and whenever I

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wasn't with the kids and my husband doing something,

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I was like running cases on my phone like standing

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in line.

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I mean like like I'm sure my kids were just

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like this is quite a vacation we're having like this

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is terrible,

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but it was just sort of like this.

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Is it like I can't?

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I can't check out of my life entirely but I've

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gotta get prepared for this and the expectation that you

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were going to be facing questions from.

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Senators who are hostile to you.

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Senators who are friendly and that you had to kind

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of be even throughout the whole thing.

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Like you said, you had to know everything you had

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to know

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it cold. You said you went through several practice runs.

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How many did you go through and who

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helped you? I got the first call about what I

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even testify in August 30th.

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I think they confirmed that I would testify on like

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September 1st or September 2nd and the testimony was on

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September 7th.

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So this is like a really sort of confined period

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of time is very short.

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I got booted by a bunch of law professors.

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I got muted by some practitioners,

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other people who had had experienced testifying before congressional committees.

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I think I did two or three moots like an

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hour long mutes,

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some of them by conference call,

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one of them in person,

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and those are incredibly helpful.

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I did, uh, I spent a lot of time timing

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my statement because you only get a certain number of

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minutes to provide your statement.

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But a lot of time writing on polishing my statement,

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so that was a big part of it too.

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And you know, just. It was a lot and then,

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you know, just thinking about that whole experience.

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UM, I, I was just so grateful to all of

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the people who contributed to that effort to get me

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prepared.

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But I mean it just sort of shows you how

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everyone understood the high stakes involved in this nomination.

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Everyone understood that this was someone who is going to

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be replacing Justice Kennedy who.

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Was not always a stalwart in terms of reproductive rights,

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but was pretty reliable as a swing voter.

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Open minded about certain questions,

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an willing to listen, and it wasn't clear that he

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would be replaced by someone who was similarly open minded.

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An expansive on this particular issue.

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Well, let me just ask,

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follow up so the moving is enormously helpful.

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Does it in any way raise your anxiety totally right?

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So can you talk about that?

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That's always a balance for me is you want to

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get it exactly right.

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And then the more you put yourself into that the

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more questions arise.

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Or what if this happens?

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00:12:05,370 --> 00:12:06,850
And what if that happens?

259
00:12:06,850 --> 00:12:09,510
So can you speak to that a little bit?

260
00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:13,401
I mean, I, I think there is a point at

261
00:12:13,461 --> 00:12:16,367
which you can just sort of over prepare and work

262
00:12:16,428 --> 00:12:17,820
yourself into a Lather,

263
00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:21,870
Uhm? Yeah, I mean it was.

264
00:12:21,870 --> 00:12:25,449
These are people that you're working with who are probably

265
00:12:25,511 --> 00:12:29,089
better briefed on these issues and the people you're going

266
00:12:29,151 --> 00:12:30,200
to appear before.

267
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,905
And they know the interstices of these questions they know

268
00:12:33,969 --> 00:12:35,630
where the fault lines are,

269
00:12:35,630 --> 00:12:37,440
and they can push them,

270
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,511
and in a way it's almost worse than the actual

271
00:12:40,578 --> 00:12:41,780
experience itself,

272
00:12:41,780 --> 00:12:45,900
right? So yes, like, I mean it was.

273
00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:49,250
It was absolutely terrifying. It probably raised more questions than

274
00:12:49,299 --> 00:12:49,890
it answered,

275
00:12:49,890 --> 00:12:51,550
but I really felt prepared.

276
00:12:51,550 --> 00:12:54,744
I mean, I just felt like after we had done

277
00:12:54,820 --> 00:12:55,200
that,

278
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,120
like OK. If if I bomb,

279
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,623
it's because I bombed. It's not because I wasn't prepared

280
00:13:01,684 --> 00:13:02,360
like these.

281
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,204
People have really poured like everything into getting me like

282
00:13:06,266 --> 00:13:07,320
ready to do this.

283
00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,290
Just sort of Mentale and.

284
00:13:10,290 --> 00:13:13,040
Intellectually prepared to just do battle.

285
00:13:13,770 --> 00:13:17,120
So when when the day came and you testified,

286
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,560
was it an experience? That you actually enjoy.

287
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:23,280
In other words, when you got there because we watch

288
00:13:23,333 --> 00:13:25,040
the film and you were very good,

289
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,685
did it feel good? Did you have a flow to

290
00:13:27,752 --> 00:13:27,950
it?

291
00:13:27,950 --> 00:13:30,328
Was it was it? Was it fun for you on

292
00:13:30,394 --> 00:13:31,120
some level?

293
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,109
So let me back up like the first thing that

294
00:13:35,171 --> 00:13:38,647
was probably the most anxiety inducing aspect of this is

295
00:13:38,709 --> 00:13:41,440
that two days before I realize I don't own a

296
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,290
suit. Right, so we had moved to

297
00:13:44,290 --> 00:13:47,652
New York. Want to be a law professor,

298
00:13:47,703 --> 00:13:48,010
right?

299
00:13:48,010 --> 00:13:49,610
Yeah, I don't understand, you know,

300
00:13:49,610 --> 00:13:52,044
I I had suits I wore suits at some point

301
00:13:52,105 --> 00:13:54,417
in my career and I think once I got 10

302
00:13:54,478 --> 00:13:56,790
years like I'm not doing that anymore.

303
00:13:56,790 --> 00:13:58,390
So I don't really wear suits.

304
00:13:58,390 --> 00:14:00,780
I you know all these really weird fun Jack.

305
00:14:00,780 --> 00:14:03,170
It's like a little bit like Andre Leon Talley.

306
00:14:03,170 --> 00:14:07,674
Like cake. So you know everyone was like you have

307
00:14:07,766 --> 00:14:11,168
to wear a suit and I was like I don't

308
00:14:11,259 --> 00:14:14,293
own one so I or the one that I do

309
00:14:14,362 --> 00:14:17,088
have is like back in California and I can't get

310
00:14:17,146 --> 00:14:17,320
it.

311
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,983
So I'm like literally out in the middle of New

312
00:14:20,041 --> 00:14:20,330
York.

313
00:14:20,330 --> 00:14:23,543
It's hot as it's so hot it's like summer in

314
00:14:23,618 --> 00:14:24,290
New York.

315
00:14:24,290 --> 00:14:26,630
Trying to find a suit the day before,

316
00:14:26,630 --> 00:14:29,270
I'm about to leave to go down to DC.

317
00:14:29,270 --> 00:14:32,239
Cannot find a suit, but I like that doesn't require

318
00:14:32,297 --> 00:14:35,149
tailoring and like the whole 9 and then just like

319
00:14:35,208 --> 00:14:38,060
I'm finally my husband just says if you wear some

320
00:14:38,060 --> 00:14:40,947
bad fitting crap suit you're going to feel like such

321
00:14:41,002 --> 00:14:41,280
crap.

322
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,168
This and it's going to be terrible like just do

323
00:14:44,230 --> 00:14:45,090
you like wear?

324
00:14:45,090 --> 00:14:48,323
Whatever you wear, wear your Cape if that's what's going

325
00:14:48,380 --> 00:14:48,900
to do it.

326
00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:52,179
And just like being yourself like you can't do anything

327
00:14:52,238 --> 00:14:55,040
like you don't wear suits so don't wear a suit.

328
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:56,859
And so it was great advice,

329
00:14:56,910 --> 00:14:59,731
so I put on this this beautiful embroidered jacket that

330
00:14:59,783 --> 00:15:00,860
I bought in Portugal.

331
00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:03,195
and I mean it was like it was like gold

332
00:15:03,255 --> 00:15:05,230
embroidery and my husband's like.

333
00:15:05,230 --> 00:15:07,260
I don't know that I meant that,

334
00:15:07,260 --> 00:15:09,880
but sure if that's where you're going with this.

335
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,687
The gold embroidery is like you look a little like

336
00:15:12,743 --> 00:15:13,080
Elvis,

337
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,803
but that's fine and I just took it and I

338
00:15:15,871 --> 00:15:18,731
went down and so I felt like myself when I

339
00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:19,480
was there.

340
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,423
and I think I would not have felt as comfortable

341
00:15:22,484 --> 00:15:24,140
if I got down wearing some,

342
00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:27,050
you know, some suit from Banana Republic or something.

343
00:15:27,050 --> 00:15:30,320
I'm so you know it's there.

344
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,578
I think as I sat there I actually got very

345
00:15:33,656 --> 00:15:35,750
angry at one point because,

346
00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:39,970
you know, there's this whole line of people testifying and.

347
00:15:39,970 --> 00:15:43,656
The head of the committee is the person whose party

348
00:15:43,728 --> 00:15:44,740
is in control.

349
00:15:44,740 --> 00:15:48,127
Like most senior member, the head of the committee is

350
00:15:48,191 --> 00:15:49,150
the Republican.

351
00:15:49,150 --> 00:15:52,820
In this case an it was Chuck Grassley from Iowa,

352
00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:55,020
and he goes down the lying,

353
00:15:55,020 --> 00:15:57,220
introducing all of the different witnesses,

354
00:15:57,220 --> 00:16:00,469
and for all of the witnesses that were called by

355
00:16:00,537 --> 00:16:01,620
the Republicans.

356
00:16:01,620 --> 00:16:05,170
He is very extensive, an expansive in his.

357
00:16:05,170 --> 00:16:07,390
You know, sort of enumeration of their credentials,

358
00:16:07,390 --> 00:16:09,688
like Mr. So and so is a law clerk to

359
00:16:09,752 --> 00:16:11,540
this person and this person.

360
00:16:11,540 --> 00:16:14,627
He graduated from Harvard and this and you know he's

361
00:16:14,686 --> 00:16:17,416
done this and all this stuff and then they get

362
00:16:17,476 --> 00:16:19,850
down to me and I'm at like the second to

363
00:16:19,850 --> 00:16:21,790
last person. It's basically like Professor Murray.

364
00:16:21,790 --> 00:16:24,280
Check Amtrak down here and that's all they say.

365
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,820
Like Professor Murray is from anyway.

366
00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:29,600
This is literally just like you know,

367
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,630
I've clerked for two judges like you know,

368
00:16:31,630 --> 00:16:33,660
I went to a fancy law school I,

369
00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:36,009
you know, I'm just like I've been the Dean of

370
00:16:36,061 --> 00:16:39,036
the law school and literally it was like Melissa Murray's

371
00:16:39,088 --> 00:16:41,280
here and and then they went on to the next

372
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:42,810
person. and I was just like,

373
00:16:42,810 --> 00:16:46,660
you know what? Yeah, no and so that annoyed me.

374
00:16:46,660 --> 00:16:49,018
Um, it annoyed me because it was just so the

375
00:16:49,072 --> 00:16:52,770
difference between how they treated the Democratic witnesses and that

376
00:16:52,823 --> 00:16:56,200
regard was so different from the Republican witnesses like just

377
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,060
for at most of the Democratic witnesses were women.

378
00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:01,740
So it was just like really truncated discussion of these

379
00:17:01,787 --> 00:17:03,510
women's quite important credentials.

380
00:17:03,510 --> 00:17:06,670
And it was just like sort of really truncated and

381
00:17:06,735 --> 00:17:07,960
so that annoyed me.

382
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,209
And then if you look at the whole array the

383
00:17:11,285 --> 00:17:12,494
Democratic side,

384
00:17:12,548 --> 00:17:13,970
you know there were women,

385
00:17:13,970 --> 00:17:15,890
you know there was mazie hirono,

386
00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:19,066
Cory Booker, Kamala Harris, or people of color the Republican

387
00:17:19,118 --> 00:17:19,430
types.

388
00:17:19,430 --> 00:17:22,310
Just like this. Blogs of white men.

389
00:17:22,310 --> 00:17:25,573
And then behind them, or all the staffers and another

390
00:17:25,634 --> 00:17:27,050
for locks of white men.

391
00:17:27,050 --> 00:17:28,950
and I was just like this.

392
00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:32,249
Is the Senate of the United States like women make

393
00:17:32,314 --> 00:17:33,370
up more than 50%

394
00:17:33,370 --> 00:17:36,172
of this country, and there is not a single woman

395
00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:38,740
from the Republican side on this committee.

396
00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:41,410
There is one woman staffer.

397
00:17:41,410 --> 00:17:43,636
Here for the reply it just it was just like

398
00:17:43,688 --> 00:17:47,156
we're going to have this conversation about reproductive rights and

399
00:17:47,208 --> 00:17:49,900
what might happen if someone is placed on the court.

400
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:52,441
And the more I just looked at it and like

401
00:17:52,503 --> 00:17:55,291
the idea that they were just sort of like you

402
00:17:55,353 --> 00:17:58,390
don't belong here like we don't even need to sort

403
00:17:58,390 --> 00:18:01,530
of like give you the same kind of.

404
00:18:01,530 --> 00:18:04,470
Deference or introduction that we would give anyone else it,

405
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:07,120
just like made me mad and I was like,

406
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,968
OK, let's do it like I'm I'm here I I

407
00:18:10,045 --> 00:18:13,662
came loaded for bear and then that was the kind

408
00:18:13,739 --> 00:18:13,970
of.

409
00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:16,030
Anger, I think that kind of fuel weigh.

410
00:18:17,140 --> 00:18:18,080
And so it helped you.

411
00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:24,452
Totale it's to me. It was just sort of like

412
00:18:24,574 --> 00:18:26,890
this is so typical.

413
00:18:26,890 --> 00:18:28,986
I mean, I just feel like I've been doing this

414
00:18:29,032 --> 00:18:30,010
for much of Mycareer,

415
00:18:30,010 --> 00:18:34,053
just you know. The expectations are so low and and

416
00:18:34,134 --> 00:18:39,471
the underestimation is just prevalent and constant and you're just

417
00:18:39,552 --> 00:18:44,080
like I'm just going to exceed every expectation you have

418
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:45,950
and so yeah, and.

419
00:18:47,230 --> 00:18:49,890
I mean, it's fascinating an as a law professor.

420
00:18:49,890 --> 00:18:52,726
When I ask you like if you took that back

421
00:18:52,795 --> 00:18:54,040
to the law school,

422
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,320
right? Because? In the law,

423
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,200
we so often have to find something to feed on,

424
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,800
you know, when you're in any kind of weather,

425
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,390
it's litigation or presentation of pallet argument on it.

426
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:06,980
Sounds like that sort of sharp and you did.

427
00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:09,445
You take any of that lesson or what you learn

428
00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:12,733
from that really unique experience back to the classroom or

429
00:19:12,788 --> 00:19:14,760
the law school community in any way.

430
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:18,790
I I just I think I've been teaching like that

431
00:19:18,859 --> 00:19:19,820
my whole life.

432
00:19:19,820 --> 00:19:22,552
Um, or at least as long as I've been a

433
00:19:22,624 --> 00:19:23,630
law professor,

434
00:19:23,630 --> 00:19:26,210
which is now 15 years uhm?

435
00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:28,490
You know when I said that I wanted to be

436
00:19:28,547 --> 00:19:31,055
a law professor in law school I was met with

437
00:19:31,112 --> 00:19:34,190
sort of rank incredulity like one of my professors was

438
00:19:34,190 --> 00:19:36,830
said to me to my face.

439
00:19:36,830 --> 00:19:39,147
You have to be really smart to be a law

440
00:19:39,206 --> 00:19:39,800
professor,

441
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,461
and it was clear in that moment that he did

442
00:19:42,523 --> 00:19:42,770
not.

443
00:19:42,770 --> 00:19:45,495
Either. He didn't think I was smart or I had

444
00:19:45,557 --> 00:19:48,220
not shown him that I was smart enough to do

445
00:19:48,281 --> 00:19:49,520
the job that he had.

446
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,753
And you know, I, I think even now there are

447
00:19:51,805 --> 00:19:54,401
probably people that I went to law school with who

448
00:19:54,453 --> 00:19:57,620
would just be stunned and incredulous about the trajectory of

449
00:19:57,620 --> 00:20:01,050
Mycareer. But I, I was just sort of like.

450
00:20:01,050 --> 00:20:03,866
I grew up in sort of modest circumstances in a

451
00:20:03,927 --> 00:20:05,580
town you've never heard of.

452
00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:08,541
How did you think I got to Yale Law School

453
00:20:08,611 --> 00:20:09,810
in the 1st place?

454
00:20:09,810 --> 00:20:12,287
If I wasn't either completely driven on top of being

455
00:20:12,334 --> 00:20:13,430
reasonably intelligent,

456
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:16,060
right? I mean, it's just sort of like come on

457
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,743
like like I literally pulled myself out of circumstances where

458
00:20:19,801 --> 00:20:22,490
most kids don't even go to college at the high

459
00:20:22,490 --> 00:20:24,000
school that I went to.

460
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,510
And so yeah, it was.

461
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:28,541
I was just I was the whole situation just made

462
00:20:28,607 --> 00:20:30,650
me angry and that kind of Rage,

463
00:20:30,650 --> 00:20:33,640
I think. Fuels me on a regular basis.

464
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,238
Where are you from? Both my parents are Jamaican and

465
00:20:37,308 --> 00:20:40,560
they immigrated to the US in the 1950s and 60s.

466
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,811
My father to go to college at Howard and dental

467
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,131
school at Howard and then my mother came in the

468
00:20:47,201 --> 00:20:50,590
60s as part of a nurses immigration visa program.

469
00:20:50,590 --> 00:20:53,939
So there was a shortage of nurses in the United

470
00:20:54,010 --> 00:20:56,646
States and so she came to the US on a

471
00:20:56,717 --> 00:21:00,280
visa specifically to fill that shortage of nurses.

472
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,130
And so they were both immigrants.

473
00:21:03,130 --> 00:21:05,370
I was born in New York,

474
00:21:05,370 --> 00:21:08,907
but we went to Florida when I was about five

475
00:21:08,988 --> 00:21:09,470
years,

476
00:21:09,470 --> 00:21:11,340
six or five or six,

477
00:21:11,340 --> 00:21:14,802
and I grew up in a town called Port St

478
00:21:14,893 --> 00:21:15,440
Lucie,

479
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,850
FL, which is very small very.

480
00:21:18,850 --> 00:21:20,680
I mean it like it.

481
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,960
It's sort of a bedroom community to Palm Beach,

482
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,880
but it's not Palm Beach so you know,

483
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,392
like a lot of the kids I went to high

484
00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:33,736
school with were part of families who had agricultural concerns

485
00:21:33,804 --> 00:21:37,470
like that Orange Grove stuff like that ranches nearby.

486
00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:40,615
I'm so sort of this really odd amalgam of agricultural

487
00:21:40,673 --> 00:21:44,400
farmers kids kids whose parents were white collar professionals,

488
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,693
doctors and lawyers. Huge African American population,

489
00:21:48,752 --> 00:21:51,250
that much of which was were in conditions,

490
00:21:51,250 --> 00:21:53,520
I think extreme poverty, I mean.

491
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,192
And the school that I went to that I graduated

492
00:21:57,272 --> 00:22:00,625
from was in the middle of a really sort of

493
00:22:00,705 --> 00:22:02,940
blighted part of the County.

494
00:22:02,940 --> 00:22:06,467
And it was a magnet school purposefully in order to

495
00:22:06,537 --> 00:22:10,272
attract kids who otherwise would not have gone to high

496
00:22:10,341 --> 00:22:11,240
school there.

497
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,174
And so that was sort of the environment most kids

498
00:22:15,254 --> 00:22:17,020
did not go to college.

499
00:22:17,020 --> 00:22:20,170
Out of state, if they went to college at all,

500
00:22:20,170 --> 00:22:23,525
a lot of kids went to our local Community College

501
00:22:23,594 --> 00:22:26,607
on some with the goal like that would be the

502
00:22:26,675 --> 00:22:29,620
a would be sort of the beginning and end of

503
00:22:29,620 --> 00:22:33,274
their higher education. Others with the idea that they get

504
00:22:33,337 --> 00:22:35,857
an A and then go onto one of the Florida

505
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,070
State schools which many did and some then went to

506
00:22:39,070 --> 00:22:42,138
the University of Florida or Florida State directly from high

507
00:22:42,188 --> 00:22:42,540
school.

508
00:22:42,540 --> 00:22:46,481
But there weren't many people who left the state to

509
00:22:46,558 --> 00:22:47,640
go to college.

510
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,754
An lots of kids who decided not to go to

511
00:22:51,857 --> 00:22:54,120
college at all and so.

512
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:55,880
There is a moment, I think,

513
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,632
where I was just like sitting there in the Senate

514
00:22:58,688 --> 00:22:59,980
chambers like you know,

515
00:22:59,980 --> 00:23:02,941
I'm a really long way away from Port Saint Lucie

516
00:23:03,003 --> 00:23:05,840
like this is a really long way from Port Saint

517
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,816
Lucie, right? It's beautiful thing that is a beautiful thing.

518
00:23:08,855 --> 00:23:11,546
It's very inspiring. What was the vision you had for

519
00:23:11,597 --> 00:23:13,460
yourself when you're in high school?

520
00:23:13,460 --> 00:23:16,100
Did you? Were you entered the law back then?

521
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:17,850
Or how did you see yourself?

522
00:23:19,410 --> 00:23:22,320
Well, you know. So my dad was a dentist,

523
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,278
so I mean and my mom had gone to nursing

524
00:23:25,352 --> 00:23:25,870
school.

525
00:23:25,870 --> 00:23:29,295
They're not college, uhm? So and they were both Adam

526
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:30,480
at like you know,

527
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,968
part of the reason they were in the United States

528
00:23:33,019 --> 00:23:33,730
for education.

529
00:23:33,730 --> 00:23:36,170
Certainly that was my father's reason for coming here.

530
00:23:36,170 --> 00:23:38,340
And they were just sort of like here.

531
00:23:38,340 --> 00:23:40,725
You have school and it's free and you can do

532
00:23:40,779 --> 00:23:43,598
anything like you know you better put your head down

533
00:23:43,652 --> 00:23:46,200
and work and they were pretty adamant about it.

534
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,049
Pretty adamant that you know they didn't have the money

535
00:23:49,101 --> 00:23:50,810
even though my dad was a dentist,

536
00:23:50,810 --> 00:23:53,753
they didn't have the money to send me to college

537
00:23:53,815 --> 00:23:56,329
like my dad is really sick for most of my

538
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:58,720
adolescence and he died when I was 17.

539
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,746
And it was very clear that you have to figure

540
00:24:01,814 --> 00:24:04,100
out how to make a way out of this,

541
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:06,503
and maybe the way is like you go to the

542
00:24:06,565 --> 00:24:09,337
state school and then you go on from there or

543
00:24:09,399 --> 00:24:11,740
you want to scholarship and you leave.

544
00:24:11,740 --> 00:24:13,720
But if you want out of here,

545
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,420
you're going on your own steam.

546
00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:18,149
and I I think I recognize that from I don't

547
00:24:18,213 --> 00:24:18,530
know.

548
00:24:18,530 --> 00:24:20,790
7th Grade. I joked about being a lawyer,

549
00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:24,423
mostly because. All of the lawyers that I knew in

550
00:24:24,497 --> 00:24:25,090
my life,

551
00:24:25,090 --> 00:24:27,060
like their kids, had it really good.

552
00:24:27,060 --> 00:24:29,320
Like all of the rich kids were lawyers,

553
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:30,730
kids and I was like,

554
00:24:30,730 --> 00:24:33,270
well, they seem like they know what they're doing.

555
00:24:33,270 --> 00:24:34,680
And you know, it all.

556
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,220
All of these lawyers had private practices like yours,

557
00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:39,750
Jeff. I mean they weren't working for law firms.

558
00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:42,570
There are no big law firms in Port Saint Lucie.

559
00:24:42,570 --> 00:24:44,270
They were sort of solo practitioners,

560
00:24:44,270 --> 00:24:46,240
but they made a really good living.

561
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,760
Their families were really comfortable and I think I aspired

562
00:24:49,819 --> 00:24:51,110
to that sort of level.

563
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:55,106
Of comfort not worrying about things and like law seemed

564
00:24:55,177 --> 00:24:56,390
a way to do that,

565
00:24:56,390 --> 00:24:59,560
but I didn't know what being a lawyer meant.

566
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,063
I mean, and I certainly had no idea that you

567
00:25:03,143 --> 00:25:03,780
could be

568
00:25:03,780 --> 00:25:07,300
a law professor to now being a law school professor.

569
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:11,033
Is the legal education system getting it right in how

570
00:25:11,103 --> 00:25:14,765
we educate law students and do law students have any

571
00:25:14,836 --> 00:25:17,160
idea what it means to be a lawyer

572
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,810
when they get out so laid back up when my

573
00:25:20,899 --> 00:25:21,700
dad died?

574
00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:24,244
He died without a will and I think that was

575
00:25:24,304 --> 00:25:27,262
the moment when I actually saw lawyers at work and

576
00:25:27,321 --> 00:25:30,280
had an understanding of what a lawyer could do and

577
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,140
that particular probate lawyer who shepherded my mother who was,

578
00:25:33,140 --> 00:25:34,570
you know, just a mess.

579
00:25:34,570 --> 00:25:37,468
Like, you know she had nursed my father for years

580
00:25:37,527 --> 00:25:40,129
and then he had died even even though it had

581
00:25:40,188 --> 00:25:41,430
sort of loomed large.

582
00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:43,720
His health and loom large in our lives.

583
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,368
That was really unexpected and so it was just like

584
00:25:46,421 --> 00:25:49,440
everyone was sort of Shell Shock to especially my mother,

585
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,424
you know. And there's so many loose ends to tie

586
00:25:52,487 --> 00:25:54,900
up and so he became really a Shepherd.

587
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:57,524
And a counselor. and I think that's why I sort

588
00:25:57,581 --> 00:25:59,920
of realized that's why they call lawyers,

589
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,315
counselors. I mean like anything she called him about an

590
00:26:03,375 --> 00:26:05,739
I got to see sort of the nuts and bolts

591
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,770
of what the sort of country lawyer did every day.

592
00:26:08,770 --> 00:26:11,130
But that's all I knew of the law,

593
00:26:11,130 --> 00:26:14,400
and I think most of my students.

594
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,325
You know, at Berkeley, certainly there were a number of

595
00:26:17,379 --> 00:26:18,070
students who,

596
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:21,087
like me, were the first in their families to go

597
00:26:21,151 --> 00:26:22,050
to law school,

598
00:26:22,050 --> 00:26:24,740
and I think a lot of them have this sense

599
00:26:24,806 --> 00:26:27,824
that being a lawyer could be a means of social

600
00:26:27,889 --> 00:26:28,480
mobility.

601
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,620
Economic mobility for themselves and their families,

602
00:26:30,620 --> 00:26:32,150
and they also have this.

603
00:26:32,150 --> 00:26:34,925
I think rock solid sense that it was a way

604
00:26:34,991 --> 00:26:37,040
to do good for their community,

605
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,100
so they came with this very strong social justice bent.

606
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:44,066
There were also students that I had at Berkeley into

607
00:26:44,142 --> 00:26:45,210
NYU that were.

608
00:26:45,210 --> 00:26:48,508
The Scions of families who had been in the law

609
00:26:48,579 --> 00:26:50,300
for some period of time,

610
00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:53,350
and so they kind of knew what lawyers did,

611
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:55,720
and the difference between those students who,

612
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,209
like me, were first generation students and those who would

613
00:26:59,268 --> 00:27:01,928
sort of grown up around the law sort of being

614
00:27:01,988 --> 00:27:04,530
bandied about just in general conversation.

615
00:27:04,530 --> 00:27:06,570
It was like night and day,

616
00:27:06,570 --> 00:27:10,693
and yeah, I remember being in my first year Civil

617
00:27:10,777 --> 00:27:12,460
Procedure class and.

618
00:27:12,460 --> 00:27:16,364
The professor said something about race utakata and I just

619
00:27:16,431 --> 00:27:18,720
caught sort of the tail end of it,

620
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,160
and I thought she said Ray judicata,

621
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,612
and I looked at the person next to me and

622
00:27:24,696 --> 00:27:26,380
I'm like who is Ray?

623
00:27:26,380 --> 00:27:28,120
Who is this Ray person,

624
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,513
and I asked this. Funny now,

625
00:27:31,569 --> 00:27:36,038
but. The guy I ask this sub was the son

626
00:27:36,153 --> 00:27:41,080
of the president of Yale and he says to me.

627
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:42,840
It's not a person, it's nothing.

628
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,600
I mean actually is a thing,

629
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,442
a race, and then he sort of explained it under

630
00:27:47,504 --> 00:27:50,160
his breath and pointed to wear in the book.

631
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,630
It was and you know,

632
00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:53,870
I was mortified. And you know,

633
00:27:53,870 --> 00:27:56,628
like like you know, proof again that I'm not supposed

634
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,709
to be here and tell you this is sort of

635
00:27:58,761 --> 00:27:59,750
like you know what?

636
00:27:59,750 --> 00:28:02,181
I'm sure there are other people here who thought she

637
00:28:02,227 --> 00:28:03,910
said Ray judicata too and like that.

638
00:28:03,910 --> 00:28:06,313
So informed my experience is a professor because I went

639
00:28:06,357 --> 00:28:07,100
into every class,

640
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,550
never expecting people to know what I was talking about.

641
00:28:09,550 --> 00:28:12,129
That I always kind of had to break everything down

642
00:28:12,181 --> 00:28:14,450
and I would say I am now talking about race.

643
00:28:14,450 --> 00:28:16,883
Judah Carter. I'm now talking about X and this is

644
00:28:16,933 --> 00:28:19,168
what X is because I knew that there were kids

645
00:28:19,218 --> 00:28:21,800
who had heard this before and they had an advantage.

646
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,160
And then there were kids.

647
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,257
Who had never heard that it was like we were

648
00:28:25,305 --> 00:28:27,831
speaking a completely new language and I had to break

649
00:28:27,879 --> 00:28:29,690
it down for them as well as there's so

650
00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:30,810
much to what you're saying.

651
00:28:30,810 --> 00:28:32,790
I mean, there's so many.

652
00:28:32,790 --> 00:28:34,740
Terms in the law that are,

653
00:28:34,740 --> 00:28:38,392
you know, I remember when race Ipsa Loquitor was introduced

654
00:28:38,454 --> 00:28:39,940
to us in the first year.

655
00:28:39,940 --> 00:28:42,540
Literally the students have been very close cousin.

656
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:44,450
And

657
00:28:44,450 --> 00:28:46,460
there was people wouldn't use the term.

658
00:28:46,460 --> 00:28:49,547
Remember one guy stand going this race ipsa theory because

659
00:28:49,601 --> 00:28:49,920
he was

660
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,846
afraid to say the word loquitor 'cause he wasn't sure

661
00:28:52,901 --> 00:28:53,950
you heard it right.

662
00:28:53,950 --> 00:28:56,617
and I just that kind of fear and in a

663
00:28:56,689 --> 00:28:57,410
way shame.

664
00:28:57,410 --> 00:29:00,114
I came from a family that I was the first

665
00:29:00,180 --> 00:29:03,214
lawyer to go to law school I mean first person

666
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,050
in my family go to law school and I didn't

667
00:29:06,050 --> 00:29:08,823
know what lawyers did I mean I came to talk

668
00:29:08,887 --> 00:29:10,370
to your class one time.

669
00:29:10,370 --> 00:29:13,679
It's about family law and I remember trying to explain

670
00:29:13,740 --> 00:29:16,130
to them it is not what you think it is.

671
00:29:16,130 --> 00:29:19,740
The law is really about a series of solving prob.

672
00:29:19,740 --> 00:29:22,784
And how you do that and what you learn in

673
00:29:22,858 --> 00:29:24,120
order to do that.

674
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,430
But I know that feeling that shame of not knowing

675
00:29:27,498 --> 00:29:30,267
and the fear I remember it so well in Law

676
00:29:30,335 --> 00:29:33,510
School of not knowing what I was doing an would

677
00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:36,785
I be. Enough to be able to come to go

678
00:29:36,873 --> 00:29:38,820
to the next level and.

679
00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:41,630
And I didn't have anybody saying to me that,

680
00:29:41,630 --> 00:29:45,209
you know, because I'm whatever the package I come in

681
00:29:45,278 --> 00:29:46,930
as a 6 foot 6 White guy.

682
00:29:46,930 --> 00:29:49,120
People didn't make those assumptions about me,

683
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,176
but I had about myself already.

684
00:29:51,238 --> 00:29:54,025
And so it's there's so much fear and shame built

685
00:29:54,083 --> 00:29:55,360
into the whole system.

686
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,141
The fact that there is so much shame around it

687
00:29:59,223 --> 00:29:59,470
is.

688
00:29:59,470 --> 00:30:01,420
What I think. Needs to the disaffection.

689
00:30:01,420 --> 00:30:04,079
I mean, sorry I think a lot of law students

690
00:30:04,141 --> 00:30:07,233
come into law school with sort of very vague ideas

691
00:30:07,295 --> 00:30:09,830
about what they want to do and the ideas,

692
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:12,730
not necessarily map on to what lawyers do do right.

693
00:30:12,730 --> 00:30:15,340
And so for those who come seeking economic mobility,

694
00:30:15,340 --> 00:30:18,181
you have no idea what a firm is going to

695
00:30:18,252 --> 00:30:18,820
be like,

696
00:30:18,820 --> 00:30:21,720
or if you're even compatible with that kind of work.

697
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,311
And then there are those who are coming in with

698
00:30:24,366 --> 00:30:27,343
this idea that they're working for some kind of vision

699
00:30:27,398 --> 00:30:28,390
of social justice.

700
00:30:28,390 --> 00:30:31,150
And the first year curriculum is not about justice.

701
00:30:31,150 --> 00:30:33,430
At all, I mean, I like I,

702
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:36,548
I tell my students. Let's constantly you at the end

703
00:30:36,610 --> 00:30:39,300
of every semester when I taught first years,

704
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:42,560
I showed them a copy of my first year answer.

705
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,840
In my torts exam. And you know,

706
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,800
it's it's an issue. Spotter Ann.

707
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,570
I wrote. The issue is justice.

708
00:30:49,570 --> 00:30:52,630
I was like wrong. That is not the issue.

709
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:56,850
That is never the issue that that's it.

710
00:30:56,850 --> 00:31:00,035
Sort of like this is like I I show it

711
00:31:00,121 --> 00:31:00,810
to them.

712
00:31:00,810 --> 00:31:04,006
It's like you can get past list like taking these

713
00:31:04,072 --> 00:31:06,420
exams as a particular kind of skill.

714
00:31:06,420 --> 00:31:09,539
It's not Intuitive. This is like talking a different language

715
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:10,050
entirely,

716
00:31:10,050 --> 00:31:13,463
and but more profoundly there is something this affecting about

717
00:31:13,517 --> 00:31:16,443
recognizing and at some point you recognize it in that

718
00:31:16,497 --> 00:31:17,310
first semester.

719
00:31:17,310 --> 00:31:18,960
The issue is not justice,

720
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,631
it is about solving problems in a way that is

721
00:31:21,690 --> 00:31:25,251
sufficient that minimizes risks that assigns risk in sort of

722
00:31:25,311 --> 00:31:27,210
evenhanded ways to both parties.

723
00:31:27,210 --> 00:31:29,330
But it's not necessarily just.

724
00:31:29,330 --> 00:31:33,212
And that's so disillusioning. I think when students figure that

725
00:31:33,274 --> 00:31:33,520
out.

726
00:31:34,190 --> 00:31:39,089
So as somebody as deeply doubt into the law school

727
00:31:39,187 --> 00:31:44,674
education system and culture as you are having been Dean

728
00:31:44,772 --> 00:31:46,830
and then why you now?

729
00:31:46,830 --> 00:31:51,262
Is it a necessary evil for lack of a better

730
00:31:51,365 --> 00:31:51,880
word?

731
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,010
That that's how we educate all students early on?

732
00:31:56,010 --> 00:32:00,820
Or should we be doing it differently?

733
00:32:00,820 --> 00:32:01,120
So

734
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,755
I I think there's been a lot of really thoughtful

735
00:32:03,809 --> 00:32:04,400
discussion.

736
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,414
Uhm, you know the Carnegie report about Watt law schools

737
00:32:08,486 --> 00:32:11,353
do and how they do it and what the first

738
00:32:11,425 --> 00:32:12,930
year curriculum does.

739
00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:15,996
You know the first year curriculum is all of these

740
00:32:16,057 --> 00:32:19,307
sort of common law subjects that have been around and

741
00:32:19,368 --> 00:32:21,330
the Socratic method is required,

742
00:32:21,330 --> 00:32:24,924
and. I I'm not one of those people who sort

743
00:32:25,008 --> 00:32:26,930
of like blow it all up.

744
00:32:26,930 --> 00:32:29,729
I mean, I use the Socratic method in my class

745
00:32:29,791 --> 00:32:30,040
and,

746
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,752
you know, I'm one of those professors who cold calls

747
00:32:32,804 --> 00:32:33,430
on students,

748
00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:34,850
and there's no advance warning.

749
00:32:34,850 --> 00:32:37,110
And it's kind of like the paper chase,

750
00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:38,530
except I'm not like kingsman,

751
00:32:38,530 --> 00:32:41,080
I I'm not trying to shame or ridicule anyone.

752
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,620
I tell my students I'm using the Socratic method,

753
00:32:43,620 --> 00:32:46,105
because if I didn't, an if I relied entirely on

754
00:32:46,158 --> 00:32:46,740
volunteers.

755
00:32:46,740 --> 00:32:49,171
I know exactly whose hands would be up an I

756
00:32:49,227 --> 00:32:52,110
actually don't want to hear from just those people.

757
00:32:52,110 --> 00:32:54,170
I want to hear from everyone and.

758
00:32:54,170 --> 00:32:56,800
And this is a way of democratizing the classroom,

759
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,840
so the Socratic method is not just,

760
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,590
you know, for my sadistic pleasure,

761
00:33:00,590 --> 00:33:02,940
it's not at all. It's really for the purpose of

762
00:33:02,990 --> 00:33:04,390
democratizing the classroom,

763
00:33:04,390 --> 00:33:07,020
and I think if it's used in that way,

764
00:33:07,020 --> 00:33:10,300
it can be very successful.

765
00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:13,190
I think we probably need to think about what the

766
00:33:13,251 --> 00:33:15,840
first year curriculum is and how it's used,

767
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,310
and sort of how it is parceled out.

768
00:33:18,310 --> 00:33:20,867
I think lots of law schools have tried to do

769
00:33:20,925 --> 00:33:23,715
this and why you has a course that's required in

770
00:33:23,773 --> 00:33:27,550
the first year called legislation and the regulatory state that's

771
00:33:27,550 --> 00:33:30,308
meant to sort of shift beyond this idea of judge

772
00:33:30,366 --> 00:33:32,837
made law to sort of think about the role of

773
00:33:32,894 --> 00:33:36,170
statutes an administrative agencies in the legal process,

774
00:33:36,170 --> 00:33:38,640
and I think that's a really important development.

775
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,520
But I also think that.

776
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,437
There are ways to imbue those traditional common law subjects

777
00:33:44,502 --> 00:33:48,419
with meaning for students just by simply talking about things

778
00:33:48,483 --> 00:33:51,630
that are there beneath the surface that you know.

779
00:33:51,630 --> 00:33:53,540
We don't often talk about.

780
00:33:53,540 --> 00:33:56,830
You know what I taught criminal law.

781
00:33:56,830 --> 00:33:58,760
We had the some you know,

782
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,783
like the criminal law that the standard courses you teach

783
00:34:01,836 --> 00:34:02,950
the various elements.

784
00:34:02,950 --> 00:34:06,530
So you Teach First the sort of.

785
00:34:06,530 --> 00:34:09,090
Series of punishment, retribution, utilitarianism,

786
00:34:09,090 --> 00:34:12,730
and then you go into.

787
00:34:12,730 --> 00:34:14,640
The different elements of a crime.

788
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,741
Actus rea's men's race, and then you actually teach a

789
00:34:17,799 --> 00:34:18,150
crime.

790
00:34:18,150 --> 00:34:21,340
So you teach homicide in the various forms of homicide.

791
00:34:21,340 --> 00:34:24,215
Then you teach rape as a common law crime that

792
00:34:24,277 --> 00:34:27,090
has been sort of changed overtime by statute,

793
00:34:27,090 --> 00:34:30,095
and then you do all of the affirmative defenses and

794
00:34:30,153 --> 00:34:32,510
then you finish up with group liability,

795
00:34:32,510 --> 00:34:36,330
like conspiracy and inchoate crimes and things like that.

796
00:34:36,330 --> 00:34:39,323
Imagine though, if you you could talk about all of

797
00:34:39,383 --> 00:34:42,735
the things that the students wanted to talk about within

798
00:34:42,795 --> 00:34:44,710
the confines of that curriculum.

799
00:34:44,710 --> 00:34:47,050
That's something that I tried to do,

800
00:34:47,050 --> 00:34:50,018
and so I started off the class and we talked

801
00:34:50,085 --> 00:34:53,997
about theories of punishment and who gets punished and why

802
00:34:54,065 --> 00:34:57,100
I made them read a chapter from Orange Is The

803
00:34:57,100 --> 00:35:00,109
New Black where Piper Kerman gets sentence to time in

804
00:35:00,166 --> 00:35:03,800
federal prison for her part in an international drug conspiracy.

805
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,150
And by the time she sent it,

806
00:35:06,150 --> 00:35:09,420
she's like been. 10 years just sort of living her

807
00:35:09,486 --> 00:35:09,820
life.

808
00:35:09,820 --> 00:35:12,960
Being an upstanding citizen and it's such a good opportunity

809
00:35:13,012 --> 00:35:15,472
to talk about you know what are the purposes of

810
00:35:15,524 --> 00:35:16,100
punishment?

811
00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:18,972
It like? Why are we incapacitating Piper Kerman at this

812
00:35:19,024 --> 00:35:19,390
moment?

813
00:35:19,390 --> 00:35:20,890
She's not doing anything well.

814
00:35:20,890 --> 00:35:23,848
Maybe the real reason is because we have to signal

815
00:35:23,907 --> 00:35:26,570
that what she did 10 years earlier was wrong.

816
00:35:26,570 --> 00:35:28,360
You can actually have that conversation,

817
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,450
like would we think about this differently?

818
00:35:30,450 --> 00:35:33,173
If Piper Kerman was a black woman instead of a

819
00:35:33,232 --> 00:35:35,540
white woman from a middle class family,

820
00:35:35,540 --> 00:35:37,720
like, how does race play into it?

821
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:40,634
And. I, I think setting up the course from that

822
00:35:40,696 --> 00:35:41,440
perspective,

823
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,192
it was the first thing that I had them read

824
00:35:44,256 --> 00:35:45,280
it just sort of.

825
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,920
You could do the traditional stuff,

826
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,143
but you'd already signal to them that even in that

827
00:35:49,187 --> 00:35:50,210
traditional curriculum,

828
00:35:50,210 --> 00:35:52,950
the things that they wanted to talk about were there.

829
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:54,870
We just had to excavate them together.

830
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:58,230
Well,

831
00:35:58,230 --> 00:36:02,159
that's what you're saying. Resonates with me because you come

832
00:36:02,224 --> 00:36:05,251
into law school and I came into for purposes of

833
00:36:05,315 --> 00:36:08,536
pursuing social justice and I and I went to Howard

834
00:36:08,603 --> 00:36:12,110
for that reason. And when you get the law school,

835
00:36:12,110 --> 00:36:15,985
you lose the connection. I guess for lack of a

836
00:36:16,069 --> 00:36:17,080
better term.

837
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,010
To the limbic part of your brain,

838
00:36:19,010 --> 00:36:21,280
you're so used to you get so far into the

839
00:36:21,336 --> 00:36:24,547
the left brain that you're not into the feeling connection

840
00:36:24,603 --> 00:36:26,430
that got you there to begin with,

841
00:36:26,430 --> 00:36:29,218
which was a feeling about just which is a feeling

842
00:36:29,275 --> 00:36:29,730
and it's

843
00:36:29,730 --> 00:36:32,404
so dis affecting. I think for sure that I think

844
00:36:32,461 --> 00:36:34,680
that's when a lot of students are like.

845
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,173
Should I even be here?

846
00:36:36,251 --> 00:36:39,100
Why am I right, yeah.

847
00:36:39,100 --> 00:36:39,980
It's there and

848
00:36:39,980 --> 00:36:41,730
you make such a great point,

849
00:36:41,730 --> 00:36:44,567
because so you know a lot of what I've done

850
00:36:44,633 --> 00:36:45,820
over the years is,

851
00:36:45,820 --> 00:36:48,493
you know criminal trial work and in the court room

852
00:36:48,546 --> 00:36:51,539
work and you're giving example of a class that resonates

853
00:36:51,593 --> 00:36:53,410
with every first year law student.

854
00:36:53,410 --> 00:36:56,003
You don't have to be seated in the law to

855
00:36:56,067 --> 00:36:58,660
have some idea of how the criminal works,

856
00:36:58,660 --> 00:37:01,752
and then you apply it to real life fact patterns

857
00:37:01,816 --> 00:37:04,715
and what that brings alive is that so much of

858
00:37:04,779 --> 00:37:07,420
what we do once your out of all school is

859
00:37:07,420 --> 00:37:09,560
problem solving, its relationships. It's how to.

860
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,184
It's just frankly, it's Moxie,

861
00:37:12,266 --> 00:37:14,463
right? and I think you're.

862
00:37:14,553 --> 00:37:18,945
Getting to how can we instill some of that vision

863
00:37:19,034 --> 00:37:20,020
in the law?

864
00:37:20,020 --> 00:37:24,380
Students early to say this really is about getting your

865
00:37:24,459 --> 00:37:25,410
hands dirty.

866
00:37:25,410 --> 00:37:28,130
And so if I'm right about you saying that,

867
00:37:28,130 --> 00:37:30,240
um, you're talking about putting in context,

868
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:33,111
you know, and how you lecture and have discourse with

869
00:37:33,166 --> 00:37:33,870
the students.

870
00:37:33,870 --> 00:37:36,810
Do you have other thoughts and kind of ideas as

871
00:37:36,873 --> 00:37:39,000
to how we can execute this better?

872
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,863
'cause I do feel that I will say personally that

873
00:37:41,923 --> 00:37:44,130
with many young lawyers they get out,

874
00:37:44,130 --> 00:37:46,850
and it's almost unfair. We've unleashed him into this.

875
00:37:46,850 --> 00:37:50,045
This legal culture that's filled now with lawyers who have

876
00:37:50,101 --> 00:37:52,910
figured out over the years that you know this whole

877
00:37:52,965 --> 00:37:55,610
other skill set and their left kind of twisting,

878
00:37:55,610 --> 00:37:57,840
particularly those students. As you pointed out,

879
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,430
who don't come from a family or culture of the

880
00:38:01,508 --> 00:38:01,820
law.

881
00:38:01,820 --> 00:38:02,320
An enemy

882
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,148
before you answer that, but I just said that what

883
00:38:05,205 --> 00:38:07,225
your point is if they if they knew.

884
00:38:07,364 --> 00:38:09,998
That there was a place for them to use the

885
00:38:10,060 --> 00:38:11,440
entire do their being.

886
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,921
You wouldn't lose as many people and there would be

887
00:38:13,970 --> 00:38:14,700
more diversity,

888
00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:16,860
not just in terms of race and gender,

889
00:38:16,860 --> 00:38:19,965
but in terms of thought in the law which would

890
00:38:20,033 --> 00:38:21,180
help the culture.

891
00:38:21,180 --> 00:38:22,020
A huge amount,

892
00:38:22,020 --> 00:38:25,008
I think part of it too is you know all

893
00:38:25,087 --> 00:38:26,660
of these things are.

894
00:38:26,660 --> 00:38:30,119
Inextricably intertwined, I mean, you talk about this as a

895
00:38:30,179 --> 00:38:33,400
way to maintain the diversity of the law school class,

896
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,760
and then the diversity of the profession.

897
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,949
Once they graduate. I think you know that sort of

898
00:38:39,014 --> 00:38:39,470
income.

899
00:38:39,470 --> 00:38:42,840
It too, on the diversity of those behind the podium,

900
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,783
like I'm only. Able to kind of see these things

901
00:38:45,846 --> 00:38:48,915
because these are the things I think about in the

902
00:38:48,977 --> 00:38:51,670
like my family law class is as much a class

903
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:55,184
about. Howlan produces gender stereotypes or regulates the intimate lives

904
00:38:55,232 --> 00:38:57,880
of individuals and produces lots of gender stereotypes.

905
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,150
As it is a class about how to write a

906
00:39:00,211 --> 00:39:03,278
prenup or what you have to think about when you're

907
00:39:03,339 --> 00:39:06,590
writing a prenup or negotiating a divorce settlement.

908
00:39:06,590 --> 00:39:09,697
So, but that's only because those are the things I'm

909
00:39:09,756 --> 00:39:11,250
coming to this web right?

910
00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:14,366
And my interest in using Orange Is The New Black

911
00:39:14,431 --> 00:39:15,600
as a teaching aid,

912
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,470
like as a text for teaching.

913
00:39:17,470 --> 00:39:19,960
Only comes from the fact that you know,

914
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,870
I do think that there are issues of race.

915
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:25,612
In class and gender married into the law that we

916
00:39:25,669 --> 00:39:26,640
have to excavate.

917
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,250
You know, if that's not where you're coming from,

918
00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:31,570
your not going to bring that out right?

919
00:39:31,570 --> 00:39:34,502
And like I think anyone could be able to excavate

920
00:39:34,562 --> 00:39:35,340
this like it,

921
00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:38,674
just like it has to be something that matters to

922
00:39:38,743 --> 00:39:41,729
you and I think one of the things that I've

923
00:39:41,799 --> 00:39:42,910
noticed is that.

924
00:39:42,910 --> 00:39:44,510
As the law professor professori,

925
00:39:44,510 --> 00:39:47,615
it has diversified on both by age and gender and

926
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:48,650
class and race.

927
00:39:48,650 --> 00:39:51,520
You're beginning to see more of this bubble up,

928
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,760
and I think the students see it.

929
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,350
She would also, I think,

930
00:39:55,350 --> 00:39:58,562
gives a student some comfort to see someone who looks

931
00:39:58,623 --> 00:40:00,320
like them behind the podium.

932
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,160
When I was at law school,

933
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,992
we didn't have a single woman of color on the

934
00:40:05,055 --> 00:40:08,139
tenure track as a professor the entire time I was

935
00:40:08,202 --> 00:40:08,580
there,

936
00:40:08,580 --> 00:40:11,264
and you imagine thinking I want to be a law

937
00:40:11,326 --> 00:40:11,950
professor,

938
00:40:11,950 --> 00:40:14,400
but there's no one who looks like you.

939
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,230
Who does that? So? I mean,

940
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:18,370
I think that's part of it too.

941
00:40:18,370 --> 00:40:20,820
So you know a diversity in the professoriate,

942
00:40:20,820 --> 00:40:23,940
I think also helps to kind of excavate these things

943
00:40:24,001 --> 00:40:26,020
so that you can reach an address.

944
00:40:26,020 --> 00:40:28,780
The diverse students that are in law schools now.

945
00:40:28,780 --> 00:40:30,420
And there's more diversity than.

946
00:40:30,420 --> 00:40:33,638
There ever has been in terms of how we can

947
00:40:33,714 --> 00:40:35,170
sort of equip them.

948
00:40:35,170 --> 00:40:37,200
Better to go out into practice?

949
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,900
You know some of that,

950
00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:42,148
I think, is imbuing the curriculum with more opportunities for

951
00:40:42,201 --> 00:40:42,620
writing.

952
00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:46,137
I think the writing skills is probably the most important

953
00:40:46,199 --> 00:40:48,050
things that we can teach them,

954
00:40:48,050 --> 00:40:51,440
and most of the time spent on writing is in.

955
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,830
That's required. Isn't the first year that L RW class,

956
00:40:54,830 --> 00:40:57,841
and then it's really up to the student to sort

957
00:40:57,906 --> 00:41:00,590
of take opportunities to do more writing.

958
00:41:00,590 --> 00:41:03,980
Whether it's through clinical work or field placement or whatnot,

959
00:41:03,980 --> 00:41:07,850
or advanced legal writing. We could probably incorporate that into

960
00:41:07,908 --> 00:41:10,840
the more traditional classroom experience as well.

961
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,125
The difficulty, of course, is that as more and more

962
00:41:14,190 --> 00:41:18,312
law schools become bigger because they are tuition dependent and

963
00:41:18,377 --> 00:41:21,340
you have to expand your class in order to just

964
00:41:21,340 --> 00:41:23,440
sort of meat, you're operating income.

965
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,648
It's much harder for professors to provide that kind of

966
00:41:26,707 --> 00:41:30,440
meaningful feedback on written assignments when you have a class

967
00:41:30,498 --> 00:41:31,140
that's 115,

968
00:41:31,140 --> 00:41:33,240
right? You know my class again,

969
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:36,130
why you is probably 100 hundred and 10.

970
00:41:36,130 --> 00:41:39,351
Lost its in Kotla and I give them opportunities for

971
00:41:39,414 --> 00:41:40,930
writing but I make them.

972
00:41:40,930 --> 00:41:44,010
I write a sort of model answer and then talk

973
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:45,410
about it with them,

974
00:41:45,410 --> 00:41:48,145
but I don't have the time to actually grade 110

975
00:41:48,203 --> 00:41:49,250
written responses.

976
00:41:49,250 --> 00:41:52,450
Three times a semester, so it's sort of like I

977
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,650
think there are trade offs and how you do it.

978
00:41:55,650 --> 00:41:58,210
But I do think it can be done.

979
00:41:58,210 --> 00:42:00,770
I think expanding clinical opportunities is really important,

980
00:42:00,770 --> 00:42:04,374
but I also recognize that clinical education is really expensive

981
00:42:04,431 --> 00:42:07,303
and it's really hard for law schools to absorb that

982
00:42:07,359 --> 00:42:09,330
cost without also passing it along.

983
00:42:09,330 --> 00:42:12,533
To the students who are already going into debt for

984
00:42:12,596 --> 00:42:12,910
this.

985
00:42:12,910 --> 00:42:15,798
So I mean, I think a lot about public private

986
00:42:15,863 --> 00:42:18,430
partnerships that could be used like so.

987
00:42:18,430 --> 00:42:21,213
One of the things that that was terrific about the

988
00:42:21,269 --> 00:42:22,660
University of California,

989
00:42:22,660 --> 00:42:25,910
Berkeley was that it had this great in-house clinic program,

990
00:42:25,910 --> 00:42:28,804
but it also had an affiliation with the East Bay

991
00:42:28,864 --> 00:42:30,130
Community Law Center,

992
00:42:30,130 --> 00:42:33,662
which was low largest provider of low income legal services

993
00:42:33,722 --> 00:42:34,680
in the East Bay.

994
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,002
And they could actually take 100 law students a semester

995
00:42:38,061 --> 00:42:41,027
and give them clinical training in a wide array of

996
00:42:41,086 --> 00:42:41,620
practice.

997
00:42:41,620 --> 00:42:45,310
Areas that we just could not absorb an in-house clinic.

998
00:42:45,310 --> 00:42:48,670
So if an in-house clinic had maybe 12 students a

999
00:42:48,740 --> 00:42:49,370
semester,

1000
00:42:49,370 --> 00:42:53,268
IEBC could take 100 and then suddenly you had 12

1001
00:42:53,349 --> 00:42:53,430
*

1002
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:56,912
560 students. Now 100 like that's half the class in

1003
00:42:56,980 --> 00:42:58,960
clinical work for a semester.

1004
00:42:58,960 --> 00:42:59,700
Please come

1005
00:42:59,700 --> 00:43:02,828
back and join us for part two of our conversation

1006
00:43:02,892 --> 00:43:06,340
with Melissa Murray when she discusses her experience,

1007
00:43:06,340 --> 00:43:10,031
clerking for, then judge and now Supreme Court Justice Sonia

1008
00:43:10,092 --> 00:43:10,400
Soto,

1009
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,680
my or and how their relationship.

1010
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,370
Impacted the trajectory of Professor Memories Karere.

1011
00:43:15,370 --> 00:43:17,290
Thank you for joining us.

1012
00:43:17,290 --> 00:43:21,035
We hope you've enjoyed this episode of iron advocate and

1013
00:43:21,102 --> 00:43:24,580
that you take what you've learned an integrated into

1014
00:43:24,580 --> 00:43:26,890
your own personal practice. As always,

1015
00:43:26,890 --> 00:43:31,055
we leave you with a minute of mindfulness.

1016
00:43:31,157 --> 00:43:37,020
Breathe in. Breathe out and we'll see you next time.

1017
00:43:37,020 --> 00:44:40,320
Stop. Well.