Ep 7 - Understanding Injustice

Join us for an Iron Advocate “Mini-Cast” where we tackle breaking legal issues with concentrated dialogue.  In this episode, we address how lawyers can help stop the epidemic of African American men being killed at the hands of police.  Jeff asks me to weigh-in on how dangerous officers can be removed from duty based upon my two decades of litigating civil rights including securing one of the largest such verdicts in Pennsylvania history.  We are also joined by Attorney Kevin Harden, a former prosecutor and current civil rights lawyer, who offers his perspective on how lawyers can make a difference in stamping out racial violence by the police.  Enjoy this episode of Iron Advocate as we continue to explore how lawyers can kill it in the practice of law without it killing us.  

Transcript

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Join us for an iron advocate mini cast where we

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tackle breaking legal issues with concentrated dialogue.

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In this episode, we address how lawyers can help stop

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the epidemic of African American men being killed at the

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hands of police.

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Jeff asks me to weigh in on how dangerous officers

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can be removed from duty.

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Based upon my two decades of litigating civil rights cases,

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including securing one of the largest such verdicts in Pennsylvania

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history.

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We're also joined by attorney Kevin Harden.

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A former prosecutor and current civil rights lawyer who offers

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his perspective on how lawyers can make a difference in

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stamping out racial violence by the police.

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Enjoy this episode of iron advocate as we continue to

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explore how lawyers can kill it in the practice of

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law without it killing us.

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You're listening to iron advocate,

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the podcast dedicated to you,

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the trial attorney. Visionary Warrior Unfiltered no holds barred.

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Iron advocate. Join Bob live at Jeffrey Bowl and today's

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top legal minds on a journey to discover how to

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kill it in the law without it killing you.

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Because being the best advocate for others begins with being

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the best advocate for yourself.

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Bob, given all that, is happened and where we are

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today is Sunday,

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may 31st and the nation is on fire in some

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ways with folks protesting.

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The racism, the mistreatment that black males in particular have

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received at the hands of police.

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What is something the legal community can do right now

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to try to address it?

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So you know, for Maine,

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I can speak from my own area of expertise,

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right? I'm a civil rights lawyer.

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What the legal community can do is recognize that it's

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not a coincidence,

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and it's not an outlier that the officer who murdered

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George Floyd.

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Um?

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Had a disciplinary record that would have had anybody in

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any other industry terminated right?

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So having officers run around out there?

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With disciplinary problems in the inability to discipline them,

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terminate them, is something that we as lawyers can

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work on.

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So time and time again.

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In cases where I have represented people who have fallen

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hands,

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you'll fall into, you know,

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abuse at the hands of police officers.

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So frequently the officers involved have significant disciplinary histories,

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and because of the way that the collective bargaining agreements

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are set up with police department's particularly in Metropolitan areas,

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the hands are tide of the department's in the municipalities.

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Determine any police officers, essentially without a criminal conviction.

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So if he asked me what we can do,

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we can examine that system and we could try to

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do something about it.

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So what could individual lawyers,

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if they wanted to take?

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An action, what would you suggest they do?

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So. You don't get involved,

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right? So for Maine, I understand the back end where

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the violations have taken place,

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right? But I'm not an employment lawyer.

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I don't understand the in's and outs of the collective

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bargaining agreement,

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right? So if you're a lawyer that has that expertise,

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you're at a firm when that expertise have conversations with

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legislators with politicians in the executive branch,

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particularly the mayors, right? If you have expertise in legislation,

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right, can't can we put in place legislation as has

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started to happen in some places in the country?

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That takes away the ability to put the disciplinary process

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into a collective bargaining agreement,

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right? Essentially takes it from the control with the police

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unions,

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right? Get involved, right? Speak testify,

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right if you're a big firm,

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is the litigation in this area where you can lend

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your expertise,

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right? You can lend your expertise on amicus brief.

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You don't get involved. Have dialogue,

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right? That's where it starts.

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I hear you. I hear you saying is this is

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not a anti police action.

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Anyway, this is a pro accountability action which would be

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in the interests of any conservative progressive anybody on the

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spectrum.

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I hear you correctly on that.

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Yeah, I mean. If you look at the amount of

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money that gets spent as a result of the broken

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disciplinary process,

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it is absolutely, positively across the political spectrum in everybody's

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interest period,

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full stop and let me say that.

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I believe that. That Most of the police department's would

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like to get control back of the disciplinary process.

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I believe that that most good officers in supervisory roles

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know where the problems are and their hands are so

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frequently tide because of the collective bargaining.

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Agreements they may not necessarily say that outright,

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but they believe it.

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I tell you that from experience.

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And Lastly, I'll say listen,

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I'm so thankful somebody's on the other end of the

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phone,

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if, God forbid, I had to call 911 tonight.

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This is not anti law enforcement,

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right? We're all pro law enforcement,

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right? But if ever there's been an industry that should

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be.

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Regulated in a way that.

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That

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Individuals with disciplinary problems can be either disciplined or terminated

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when necessary.

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It's the profession where people have a badge and a

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gun,

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right? I don't know of any other profession where you

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can't get fired for not being fit for your job.

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An unfortunately and sadly, and most Metropolitan Police Department's.

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That's the case. Right, and it's become a political issue

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that in terms of the polarization we see today,

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folks aren't just looking at what's accountable,

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what's affective. So I want to turn to Kevin,

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your former District Attorney. You have litigated civil rights cases.

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Your attorney of color. What do you see right now?

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What are some ways that we in the profession can

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make a difference right now?

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And one thing I'll just add is that my best

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this this week,

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mark Seven years since my best friend was shot and

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killed by Philadelphia police officer.

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That happened while I was working in the district attorneys

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office.

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So that qualifies it from just another perspective where my

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God son who's now 13 that I see.

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Once a week doesn't have his father and uh,

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and that's so that makes this issue personal with me

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regarding police discipline in the unarmed the death of civilians.

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So first and foremost, the practice of litigating civil rights

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cases involving police officers.

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Many law firms don't get involved in that met in

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those matters,

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unless there is a significant return on the back end,

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because sometimes police officers are.

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Could be judgment proof, or there's not a significant financial

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payoff,

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so lawyers immediately if they,

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if they are thinking of cases that they couldn't take

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up,

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is they could start a project or form a collective

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of lawyers who take on cases that aren't big ticket

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cases.

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They won't result in a very large,

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very large payout. Maybe even you may even end up

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with a judgment.

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I'm worthless judgment due to the officer.

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Having being judgment proof, but you'd be surprised how much

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of a deterrent it is when the police officer believes

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that you may put a judgment or a lien against

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his home for the type of misconduct that he does

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out on the street.

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So that's just one thing that people should consider.

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Let me ask you about this.

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You're basically saying it's a call to arms for litigators

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to take up.

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What could be a pro Bono or quasi pro bono

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cases in order to change the culture around the police?

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Is that what you're saying?

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Yes, so you know one of the things that lawyers

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should pay particular attention to with something called the qualified

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immunity doctor.

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Which gives quite so judicially created doctrine that gives police

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officers immunity when they do certain things against the police,

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and then other jurists in Philadelphia,

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where I practice, there's a immunity to police officers when

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they're sued in their official capacity in the state,

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not in the federal government,

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but what that means is that if there are several

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procedural hurdles that will prevent you from successfully suing a

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police officer even when they're dead wrong,

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and then even after all of that.

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Your employer may not be liable.

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It's almost like a, uh,

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a catch 22. If the more egregious conduct the police

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officer performs,

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the less likely that his employer,

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who's The Who's the person who is likely able to

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pay a judgment for the injuries has to payout.

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So lawyers have to be ready to go out and

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get empty judgments because the city isn't on the hook

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when,

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say, for example, I've seen countless examples during these protests,

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protests of police officers. Uh,

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acting out towards protesters in arguably lawful ways,

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or lashing out at the Media,

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which has been remarkably surprising.

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To see how coordinated it's been wearing media has been

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shot,

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stabbed, kicked. I mean, it's just been.

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It's been appalling. So with regard to that,

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I think that it may be time for there to

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be projects dedicated simply to litigating cases involving police officers

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that commitments conduct against citizens.

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Regardless of whether or not there will be a financial

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outcome.

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And I think you're talking it also.

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I mean just this weekend the weekend of May 3020.

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Ninth is Friday and 3:30 one there was.

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There was an assault on police officers in Minnesota.

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I mean, a CNN Reporter in.

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Minneapolis was arrested. I know there's another,

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uhm. Reporter who was, I believe,

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shot with rubber bullets in other jurisdiction mean just to

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in the last 48 hours happened.

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Yeah, I've seen videos of Reporter who lost her.

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I I've seen videos of officers shooting into crowds that

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are obviously non non violent and not obstructing any highway.

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And the sad part about it is these are a

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bunch of these are these are those little cases that

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you know the damage is maybe $1000 fifteen $100 but

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at the end of the day.

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Uh, it be there still there still injuries,

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so somebody has to do something about that,

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because if they can create and I believe that if

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they create enough financial incentive for some retraining,

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and like Bob said with the collective bargaining agreement,

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what we've seen in the state of Nebraska where they

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passed the law.

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I mean it is passed a law that prohibits collective

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bargaining around the disciplinary process because in a place like

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Philadelphia.

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Leave Commissioner Ramsey was on CNN this weekend and he

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said he had fired a cop 2 times and then

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the next time he saw the cop wasn't on the

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street it was at his promotion.

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So this guy had been fired twice and then he

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comes upon him for the third time and it's at

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a promotion ceremony.

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So you have police officers that are in charge that

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have become the top police officers.

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Can't even Spire their own employees that they deemed

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to not being to not meet the standards of policing

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and Jeff.

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If I can jump in for a quick sack doesn't

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ask you Bob.

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Tell us what are your views of that?

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How? Can this change based on your extensive experience with

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civil rights attorney?

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So the first thing that to piggyback on what Kevin

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said,

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this is not unique to Philadelphia where Kevin Practices.

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This is every large Metropolitan area in the United States,

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and the reason for it is that you know the

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hasn't been the political will take this on,

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right? So the knee jerk political reaction is we all

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have to be pro law enforcement alright,

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and so the mayors across America are afraid.

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To push back on this and again,

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the reality is that this is not anti law enforcement

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right?

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This is a profession that must be regulated and disciplined

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properly.

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And again the echo with Kevin said,

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so Chief Ramsey, who retired from being the Chief Police

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in Philadelphia.

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To give folks an example of what happens out there,

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he publicly. Talked about five officers in the Philadelphia Police

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Department a number of years ago,

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who he referred to as engaging in V worst police

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corruption that he had ever seen in his life.

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The five of them were federally indicted after one of

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their fellow officers was actually caught on tape,

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stealing money and planting drugs.

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Unfortunately, those five were not on tape at all of

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prosecution was brought and they got acquitted,

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largely because the officer who had been caught on

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tape testified against them.

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But they didn't have the same kind of sort of

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taped evidence against 5:00 AM.

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Long story short, they get acquitted.

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These five officers who chief Ramsey labeled as the most

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corrupt officers.

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He never seemed, got their jobs back.

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An several of them have gotten promotions.

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Right, so if the standard for terminating an

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officer is that they have to be convicted of a

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crime,

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then you're going to have beyond reason.

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Without in a Criminal Court room then you're going to

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have police departments across America that are filled with officers

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who in any other industry would be terminated for whatever

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that behavior might be, right?

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If they were carpenters or plumbers or lawyers or doctors

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or teachers,

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you know they would be terminated,

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but. But in the world we're living in,

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which is upside down, they can't be.

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And so. So I ask you everything Kevin said Nebraska

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has taken this on and let me just say that

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that that law is going to end up.

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You know, potentially ends up in front of the United

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States Supreme Court.

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Obviously it's going to get challenged as hard as it

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can be by FO PS across the country.

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So get involved, right. Have a dialogue about it,

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right? But those are the things where's Warriors can do.

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And this is an area where you can the

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polarization of the electric,

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which is one of the stories of our time along

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with the.

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Now, pulling back the curtain of the racism that existed

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for so long,

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if folks can get past being progressive,

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being conservative, an look at these issues,

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you know, taking down a union,

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quote, unquote? To create accountability.

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That's not a progressive issue.

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That's not a Democratic or Republican issue.

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This is an issue of simply looking at what's affective,

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and this is where are we?

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Invite lawyers on this show.

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Iron advocates to come forward and help cut through bias

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and all of the prejudices that the general population has

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an link.

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Lawyers are uniquely positioned to help out on this.

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And what do you think about Kevin's idea of creating?

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Litigation that may not be.

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Financially savvy, but that could result in change weather through

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consent decrees or through.

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A breakthrough, a critical mass being reached that there's actually

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changed on the level of the culture.

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So real quickly. Let me also say that I don't

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want to takedown the police unions.

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I am all four police officers having the best benefits.

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That's possible. Medical benefits, pensions,

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all of that right? I just don't want the disciplinary

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process hijacked,

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right? Yeah, I rephrase that.

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I meant the idea that police unions can.

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In a way, bargain, so there's not accountability,

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not about the things that you do that are positive.

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I don't. I don't mean that at all.

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I mean, the piece of it where there is no

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accountability.

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That's the problem absolutely. And to comment on what Kevin

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said,

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listen, that's what the law is supposed to be all

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about.

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I, Kevin said it better than I could write.

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The more we shine the light,

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the better off we're going to be.

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And even if that like it shine does Kevin said

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in a case that maybe not worth a lot or

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somebody could be judgment proof?

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Hey listen there's 12 or 14 jurors in that courtroom

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that are hearing about that case that are going back

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to their community and talking about it right?

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So in every way, I agree wholeheartedly with,

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uh, uh, what Kevin said.

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I would just say this to big law out there.

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Listen, you have the resources you have the power.

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So if everyone of your lawyers took one case like

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Kevin's talking about.

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One case. Right? Everywhere you have,

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let him take. Let him take one so.

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Can't say it any better than that.

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Imagine some of the cases that will get brought

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as Kevin said.

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For somebody who maybe you know,

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gotta black eye or you know or got

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scarred Up 'cause the handcuffs were too tight.

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But it's not worth enough money for the small practitioner

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to take.

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Right, take it pro Bono give it to one

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of your associates.

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Let him run with it right?

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Maybe one of the 16 or 18 people that complained

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about the officer that murdered George Floyd and they won't

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happen.

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Thanks guys, thank you for joining us.

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We hope you've enjoyed this episode of iron advocate and

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that you take what you've learned an integrated into your

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own personal practice.

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As always, we leave you with a minute of mindfulness.

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Breathe in. Breathe out and we'll see you next time.

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Z. Bella