Ep 9 - Brian McMonagle

Criminal defense attorney Brian McMonagle takes us on a journey covering his incredible career from the hung jury while defending Bill Cosby in the case of a lifetime to representing Meek Mill as Meek became the international face of the movement for criminal justice reform.  Brian also takes us back to his early days as a homicide prosecutor obtaining a conviction in a high profile mob case that thrust him into the media spotlight.  Along the way, Brian discusses the need to get inside the jury box and humanize his client, the emotions that drive him and lessons that he continues to learn about what it truly means to refuse to lose.  Brian also shares some hilarious stories about his life in the law.  Enjoy this episode of Iron Advocate as we continue to explore how lawyers can kill it in the practice of law without it killing us.

Transcript

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,942
Criminal defense attorney Brian Mcmonagle takes us on a journey

2
00:00:04,005 --> 00:00:08,073
covering his incredible career from the hung jury while defending

3
00:00:08,135 --> 00:00:11,389
Bill Cosby in the case of a lifetime to representing

4
00:00:11,452 --> 00:00:11,702
Meek

5
00:00:11,702 --> 00:00:15,464
Mill, Asmik became the international face of the movement for

6
00:00:15,526 --> 00:00:17,006
criminal justice reform.

7
00:00:17,006 --> 00:00:19,790
Brian also takes us back to his early days as

8
00:00:19,852 --> 00:00:21,213
a homicide prosecutor,

9
00:00:21,213 --> 00:00:24,541
obtaining a conviction in a high profile mob case that

10
00:00:24,603 --> 00:00:26,822
thrust him into the media spotlight.

11
00:00:26,822 --> 00:00:30,102
Along the way, Brian discusses the need to get inside

12
00:00:30,164 --> 00:00:30,968
the jury box,

13
00:00:30,968 --> 00:00:34,433
in humanize his client. The emotions that drive him and

14
00:00:34,496 --> 00:00:37,897
lessons that he continues to learn about what it truly

15
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:39,472
means to refuse to lose.

16
00:00:39,472 --> 00:00:43,205
Brian also shares some hilarious stories about his life in

17
00:00:43,269 --> 00:00:43,784
the law.

18
00:00:43,784 --> 00:00:47,375
Enjoy this episode of iron advocate as we continue to

19
00:00:47,443 --> 00:00:50,831
explore how lawyers can kill it in the practice of

20
00:00:50,898 --> 00:00:52,660
law without it killing us.

21
00:00:52,660 --> 00:00:57,118
You're listening to iron advocate,

22
00:00:57,118 --> 00:01:00,940
the podcast dedicated to you,

23
00:01:00,940 --> 00:01:12,690
the trial attorney. Visionary Warrior Unfiltered no holds barred.

24
00:01:12,690 --> 00:01:17,654
Iron advocate. Join Bob live at Jeffrey Bowl and today's

25
00:01:17,743 --> 00:01:21,909
top legal minds on a journey to discover how to

26
00:01:21,998 --> 00:01:25,721
kill it in the law without it killing you.

27
00:01:25,721 --> 00:01:30,318
Because being the best advocate for others begins with being

28
00:01:30,395 --> 00:01:32,770
the best advocate for yourself.

29
00:01:32,770 --> 00:01:36,864
How does how does the Bill Cosby case come to

30
00:01:36,955 --> 00:01:38,410
Brian Mcmonagle?

31
00:01:38,410 --> 00:01:42,669
Well, it's interesting Bob. The case actually came from a

32
00:01:42,743 --> 00:01:43,640
mentor mine,

33
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,218
a civil litigator in Philadelphia,

34
00:01:46,218 --> 00:01:49,557
and the original phone call was for me to get

35
00:01:49,631 --> 00:01:53,638
involved in an accusation in Atlantic City and the way

36
00:01:53,712 --> 00:01:56,383
the conversation actually broke was,

37
00:01:56,383 --> 00:01:59,584
hey, listen, I hear you're the go to guy in

38
00:01:59,658 --> 00:02:03,306
Atlantic City and I had to confess that I wasn't,

39
00:02:03,306 --> 00:02:07,284
uhm, you know there, everybody's got an area that they

40
00:02:07,357 --> 00:02:09,420
kind of pride themselves of.

41
00:02:09,420 --> 00:02:12,330
Having some some juice in in Atlantic City just isn't,

42
00:02:12,330 --> 00:02:15,306
and there's a great lawyer in Atlantic City who you

43
00:02:15,365 --> 00:02:17,757
will know at Jacobson I I had to tell the

44
00:02:17,816 --> 00:02:20,150
truth regretfully and refer the case to.

45
00:02:20,150 --> 00:02:21,418
To Jacobs and he sold.

46
00:02:21,418 --> 00:02:23,293
By the way, it's a big celebrity.

47
00:02:23,293 --> 00:02:24,727
It's Bill Cosby, and, uh,

48
00:02:24,727 --> 00:02:27,590
I wanted to shoot myself after referring it down to

49
00:02:27,647 --> 00:02:27,815
Ed.

50
00:02:27,815 --> 00:02:29,635
And then, as fate would have it.

51
00:02:29,635 --> 00:02:31,675
And it's This is great for you know,

52
00:02:31,675 --> 00:02:34,791
some of the young lawyers that sometimes get calls about

53
00:02:34,847 --> 00:02:37,573
cases in areas where they'd love to go handle the

54
00:02:37,629 --> 00:02:37,907
case,

55
00:02:37,907 --> 00:02:41,047
but they're probably not the guy or gal to handle

56
00:02:41,111 --> 00:02:41,560
it and.

57
00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,509
I get a call back you know couple months later

58
00:02:44,573 --> 00:02:46,432
and add Jacob says he listen.

59
00:02:46,432 --> 00:02:50,165
You know, there really wasn't a headache in Atlantic City,

60
00:02:50,165 --> 00:02:53,581
but there's a real big headache in Montgomery County.

61
00:02:53,581 --> 00:02:56,049
So I'm referring the case back to you.

62
00:02:56,049 --> 00:02:58,833
So that's that's how I got involved in the.

63
00:02:58,833 --> 00:03:00,605
And that was the beginning.

64
00:03:00,605 --> 00:03:02,503
So prior to this case comedy,

65
00:03:02,503 --> 00:03:04,527
Brian mean you had done at all.

66
00:03:04,527 --> 00:03:06,742
You tried hundreds of jury trials.

67
00:03:06,742 --> 00:03:10,095
You've represented athletes, musicians, politicians,

68
00:03:10,095 --> 00:03:11,930
tons of regular people, what?

69
00:03:11,930 --> 00:03:17,930
Made Cosby and the case different than any other.

70
00:03:17,930 --> 00:03:21,241
But I don't know that I have enough time.

71
00:03:21,241 --> 00:03:23,133
Uhm, you know, I it it.

72
00:03:23,133 --> 00:03:26,049
It's kind of. It's hard to describe.

73
00:03:26,049 --> 00:03:28,808
It was like nothing I'd ever seen,

74
00:03:28,808 --> 00:03:30,936
just by way of an example,

75
00:03:30,936 --> 00:03:34,483
when we first learned that he was going to be

76
00:03:34,562 --> 00:03:36,060
criminally charged.

77
00:03:36,060 --> 00:03:39,487
We may Drake went to great lengths to see to

78
00:03:39,564 --> 00:03:41,122
have him flown into,

79
00:03:41,122 --> 00:03:44,624
uh, an airport nearby. We changed all of the you

80
00:03:44,697 --> 00:03:48,490
know codes etc to prevent the press from finding out

81
00:03:48,563 --> 00:03:50,460
where he'd be flying into.

82
00:03:50,460 --> 00:03:52,597
And when we met him at the plane,

83
00:03:52,597 --> 00:03:56,231
there were two helicopters waiting from the media when he

84
00:03:56,294 --> 00:03:57,123
touched down.

85
00:03:57,123 --> 00:04:00,517
That followed us, literally, to the district justice,

86
00:04:00,517 --> 00:04:03,849
and when we got to the District Justice Court House,

87
00:04:03,849 --> 00:04:05,294
which is just a house,

88
00:04:05,294 --> 00:04:08,908
as you know, in Montgomery County there were hundreds and

89
00:04:08,972 --> 00:04:12,142
hundreds of members of the media from all over the

90
00:04:12,206 --> 00:04:12,586
world.

91
00:04:12,586 --> 00:04:15,220
They were climbing on our trucks.

92
00:04:15,220 --> 00:04:17,657
And to answer your question,

93
00:04:17,657 --> 00:04:21,103
it was the first time in my career that I

94
00:04:21,187 --> 00:04:23,960
felt like a kite and a hurricane.

95
00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,360
It's like being inside a movie is what it sounds

96
00:04:29,426 --> 00:04:29,755
like.

97
00:04:29,755 --> 00:04:31,629
It was surreal. It you know.

98
00:04:31,629 --> 00:04:34,858
Because it. I don't really know how to describe it

99
00:04:34,922 --> 00:04:36,795
on a couple different levels.

100
00:04:36,795 --> 00:04:39,718
One because of the pandemonium that I was witnessing,

101
00:04:39,718 --> 00:04:42,207
and two because of who I was sitting next to.

102
00:04:42,207 --> 00:04:44,805
You know you're talking about an American icon.

103
00:04:44,805 --> 00:04:46,050
You know Bob is right.

104
00:04:46,050 --> 00:04:49,229
I've had the privilege of representing some people in some

105
00:04:49,284 --> 00:04:50,435
high publicity cases.

106
00:04:50,435 --> 00:04:52,383
You know, great athletes, you know,

107
00:04:52,383 --> 00:04:53,790
some people in the media,

108
00:04:53,790 --> 00:04:56,205
politicians. But let's face it,

109
00:04:56,205 --> 00:04:58,550
this was Bill Cosby and and.

110
00:04:58,550 --> 00:05:00,481
The pre lude to the arrest,

111
00:05:00,481 --> 00:05:04,575
you know made this. Obviously something that you can't even

112
00:05:04,644 --> 00:05:08,946
really describe and that being obviously the hysteria that had

113
00:05:09,015 --> 00:05:12,276
come from you know one morning him being one of

114
00:05:12,276 --> 00:05:15,104
the most popular in Americans ever born.

115
00:05:15,104 --> 00:05:19,143
And then you know within weeks being transformed into what

116
00:05:19,213 --> 00:05:22,277
the media was describing is a serial rapist,

117
00:05:22,277 --> 00:05:25,726
and it was. It was pretty unimaginable in terms of

118
00:05:25,795 --> 00:05:29,243
just trying to get your head right in dealing with

119
00:05:29,312 --> 00:05:30,140
the madness.

120
00:05:30,140 --> 00:05:32,413
Uhm, but we managed to do it.

121
00:05:32,413 --> 00:05:35,692
Was this sort of a slow build that had been

122
00:05:35,768 --> 00:05:39,733
behind that even before you got involved in terms of

123
00:05:39,810 --> 00:05:44,385
the the media's attempts in ultimate success in getting that

124
00:05:44,385 --> 00:05:49,386
deposition unsealed, which is what kind of drove the prosecution.

125
00:05:49,386 --> 00:05:51,053
Yeah, I mean, I mean,

126
00:05:51,053 --> 00:05:54,539
you know the Chronology was was just amazing.

127
00:05:54,539 --> 00:05:57,873
There had been a, you know there had been an

128
00:05:57,949 --> 00:06:01,510
allegation made you know 12 years or so before.

129
00:06:01,510 --> 00:06:04,832
And it was investigated by the district attorneys Office.

130
00:06:04,832 --> 00:06:08,818
District Attorney decided that there wasn't enough to bring a

131
00:06:08,883 --> 00:06:09,210
case.

132
00:06:09,210 --> 00:06:10,999
Sent the parties off into,

133
00:06:10,999 --> 00:06:14,650
you know, civil litigation for the most part.

134
00:06:14,650 --> 00:06:17,139
And in the course of the civil litigation,

135
00:06:17,139 --> 00:06:20,410
obviously there's the positions that are taken.

136
00:06:20,410 --> 00:06:23,978
And then the case settles an the depositions are under

137
00:06:24,044 --> 00:06:26,290
seal and then unimaginable E when.

138
00:06:26,290 --> 00:06:27,514
And how this was done?

139
00:06:27,514 --> 00:06:30,388
I'll never really understand I wasn't involved in it,

140
00:06:30,388 --> 00:06:33,583
but The Associated Press managed to get a federal judge

141
00:06:33,641 --> 00:06:36,894
here in the Eastern District to unseal a deposition that

142
00:06:36,952 --> 00:06:39,450
was sealed by the agreement of the parties.

143
00:06:39,450 --> 00:06:42,212
And then all hell broke loose.

144
00:06:42,212 --> 00:06:47,824
Uhm, that deposition in combination with the multitude of women

145
00:06:47,913 --> 00:06:50,140
that were coming forward.

146
00:06:50,140 --> 00:06:53,075
Made this really something that I I don't think the

147
00:06:53,133 --> 00:06:54,687
world has ever seen before.

148
00:06:54,687 --> 00:06:57,188
I mean, this was every night documentaries,

149
00:06:57,188 --> 00:07:00,297
Nightline Dateline you couldn't turn on the TV and not

150
00:07:00,354 --> 00:07:01,621
see an interview with.

151
00:07:01,621 --> 00:07:05,365
With all of these women coming forward making accusations against

152
00:07:05,423 --> 00:07:05,941
Mr Cosby.

153
00:07:05,941 --> 00:07:09,629
And there's, you know, a District Attorney sitting in Montgomery

154
00:07:09,687 --> 00:07:10,090
County.

155
00:07:10,090 --> 00:07:12,898
Um, running for election at the time that this is

156
00:07:12,955 --> 00:07:15,590
all going going on and it really was a perfect

157
00:07:15,648 --> 00:07:17,252
storm for him being charged.

158
00:07:17,252 --> 00:07:19,980
And as soon as that that position was released,

159
00:07:19,980 --> 00:07:22,660
there really was a. AFAIK complete.

160
00:07:22,660 --> 00:07:24,487
An and then, um, we get a call,

161
00:07:24,487 --> 00:07:28,113
you know, because you're still hoping against hope that they'll

162
00:07:28,170 --> 00:07:31,163
make the decision that because of his age because of

163
00:07:31,220 --> 00:07:32,026
his infirmity,

164
00:07:32,026 --> 00:07:34,525
he was blind at the time and and because of

165
00:07:34,583 --> 00:07:35,338
the you know,

166
00:07:35,338 --> 00:07:38,288
the obvious defenses at such a case that they would

167
00:07:38,346 --> 00:07:39,792
choose not to charge him.

168
00:07:39,792 --> 00:07:41,420
And we got a call.

169
00:07:41,420 --> 00:07:43,719
I want to say it was just hours before we

170
00:07:43,775 --> 00:07:45,906
needed Mr Cosby to be in Philadelphia.

171
00:07:45,906 --> 00:07:49,181
Uh, because he was being charged that morning and they

172
00:07:49,241 --> 00:07:51,909
wanted him here and we had to have him flown

173
00:07:51,970 --> 00:07:53,850
in from from Massachusetts and.

174
00:07:53,850 --> 00:07:54,990
And then it hit the fan.

175
00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,610
Surprised how do you prepare yourself?

176
00:08:00,610 --> 00:08:04,001
Mentally, psychologically, emotionally for that,

177
00:08:04,001 --> 00:08:05,730
kind of as you describe,

178
00:08:05,730 --> 00:08:10,125
it's surreal. Media circus? I you know,

179
00:08:10,125 --> 00:08:12,669
I don't know that you do I think you know

180
00:08:12,731 --> 00:08:15,709
for any lawyer that has gone through it and will

181
00:08:15,771 --> 00:08:16,640
go through it.

182
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,122
You know, I was lucky that it happened to me

183
00:08:20,201 --> 00:08:24,395
after years of trying cases of being involved in some

184
00:08:24,474 --> 00:08:27,085
significantly high profile cases,

185
00:08:27,085 --> 00:08:29,441
but nothing I be kidding you.

186
00:08:29,441 --> 00:08:32,873
If I told you really prepared me for what I

187
00:08:32,953 --> 00:08:34,310
was about to see,

188
00:08:34,310 --> 00:08:37,452
you're never prepared for what you see.

189
00:08:37,452 --> 00:08:41,676
You're not necessarily prepared to deal with it in an

190
00:08:41,755 --> 00:08:42,871
effective way,

191
00:08:42,871 --> 00:08:47,459
but you are prepared. Meaning you're never gonna let anybody

192
00:08:47,535 --> 00:08:51,740
know that you know you're you're stunned at what you're

193
00:08:51,817 --> 00:08:52,352
seeing.

194
00:08:52,352 --> 00:08:56,971
Anybody know that you're seeing something that you've never seen

195
00:08:57,043 --> 00:08:57,548
before?

196
00:08:57,548 --> 00:09:01,635
You're never going to let anybody know that inside of

197
00:09:01,712 --> 00:09:04,180
you there's a carnival going on.

198
00:09:04,180 --> 00:09:07,364
And you're trying to show the world that everything's OK,

199
00:09:07,364 --> 00:09:10,310
that show your client that everything is OK.

200
00:09:10,310 --> 00:09:12,528
And really pretend to be in the moment,

201
00:09:12,528 --> 00:09:14,525
um, and I if I'm telling the truth,

202
00:09:14,525 --> 00:09:16,300
I'm telling you that, you know,

203
00:09:16,300 --> 00:09:18,574
because let's not kid ourselves and and.

204
00:09:18,574 --> 00:09:21,262
And there may be lawyers out there that are just

205
00:09:21,318 --> 00:09:24,117
cut from such a great cloth that it doesn't affect

206
00:09:24,173 --> 00:09:24,453
them.

207
00:09:24,453 --> 00:09:26,339
But if I'm telling you the truth,

208
00:09:26,339 --> 00:09:29,260
uhm, I was seeing things that I've never seen before

209
00:09:29,316 --> 00:09:30,720
and will never see again.

210
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,382
An I was just trying to not let everybody know,

211
00:09:33,382 --> 00:09:35,848
um, the way that it was affecting me and Ann

212
00:09:35,904 --> 00:09:38,426
I I'd like to think I was successful in doing

213
00:09:38,482 --> 00:09:38,762
that,

214
00:09:38,762 --> 00:09:40,315
but I'm not kidding myself.

215
00:09:40,315 --> 00:09:42,700
I probably wasn't as successful as I think.

216
00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:50,950
I was. So Brian. You're you're a guy who who?

217
00:09:50,950 --> 00:09:53,515
From from from my perspective,

218
00:09:53,515 --> 00:09:57,626
haven't watched you over the years is driven by a

219
00:09:57,710 --> 00:09:59,639
fierce competitiveness.

220
00:09:59,639 --> 00:10:04,348
Uh, something that churns inside you that truly hates to

221
00:10:04,432 --> 00:10:04,852
lose,

222
00:10:04,852 --> 00:10:07,335
um pushing himself, you know,

223
00:10:07,335 --> 00:10:12,377
always toward greatness an what you just described had to

224
00:10:12,465 --> 00:10:16,180
intersect with that in can you talk about?

225
00:10:16,180 --> 00:10:20,300
This this unknown sort of the whatever either or concern

226
00:10:20,374 --> 00:10:25,009
fear anxiety about balancing between what always drives you and

227
00:10:25,082 --> 00:10:28,099
what on Earth am I going to do to control

228
00:10:28,099 --> 00:10:30,923
this and be able to try this case in a

229
00:10:30,998 --> 00:10:32,633
way that I can win it?

230
00:10:32,633 --> 00:10:35,411
You know, it's interesting, you know.

231
00:10:35,411 --> 00:10:37,678
We know each other, bugs here,

232
00:10:37,678 --> 00:10:40,969
right? I mean, I hate losing more than I like

233
00:10:41,042 --> 00:10:42,870
winning and there's that.

234
00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:46,046
And there's. Coming to the realization,

235
00:10:46,046 --> 00:10:49,177
which is, uh, it's a rare thing for a lawyer

236
00:10:49,248 --> 00:10:51,241
that you don't have control.

237
00:10:51,241 --> 00:10:55,060
Uh, my, I remember that that feeling I think.

238
00:10:55,060 --> 00:10:59,492
Permeated this this whole kind of Odyssey in terms of

239
00:10:59,576 --> 00:11:02,670
the defense of Bill Cosby from Maine,

240
00:11:02,670 --> 00:11:07,140
because you never had control unit you everyday.

241
00:11:07,140 --> 00:11:10,465
Something was being thrown at you,

242
00:11:10,465 --> 00:11:15,595
uh, the media obviously was was was taking him apart.

243
00:11:15,595 --> 00:11:19,870
Uh, it it was a it was a surgical destruction

244
00:11:19,965 --> 00:11:22,530
really of an American icon.

245
00:11:22,530 --> 00:11:25,970
And to think that you could control that was probably

246
00:11:26,035 --> 00:11:27,138
naive on my part.

247
00:11:27,138 --> 00:11:30,249
Uhm, and it I didn't really find a comfort level

248
00:11:30,314 --> 00:11:32,193
in terms of what's important,

249
00:11:32,193 --> 00:11:35,348
which is getting yourself ready to go win and not

250
00:11:35,413 --> 00:11:38,954
lose until I realized that they were certainly going to

251
00:11:39,019 --> 00:11:42,496
be things every day that were behind beyond my ability

252
00:11:42,496 --> 00:11:46,380
to control. And once you realize that.

253
00:11:46,380 --> 00:11:47,913
Now you're in the hunt.

254
00:11:47,913 --> 00:11:50,214
Now it's OK. I'm on a 20 yard line.

255
00:11:50,214 --> 00:11:51,428
I gotta get to 10.

256
00:11:51,428 --> 00:11:54,142
And then maybe I'm going to get in the end

257
00:11:54,206 --> 00:11:56,662
zone as opposed to How do I get to the

258
00:11:56,726 --> 00:11:57,114
field?

259
00:11:57,114 --> 00:11:59,223
How do I? Where is this stadium?

260
00:11:59,223 --> 00:12:01,874
am I even was I was I born for this

261
00:12:01,950 --> 00:12:02,480
moment?

262
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,863
And and I I kind of remember you know that

263
00:12:05,944 --> 00:12:08,038
as we got closer to trial,

264
00:12:08,038 --> 00:12:11,203
it got easier. Because the only thing I'm really good

265
00:12:11,263 --> 00:12:13,772
at and I I shouldn't say really good at it

266
00:12:13,831 --> 00:12:16,280
and I like to think I'm pretty good at it

267
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,256
is is trying cases. And when you're trying to be,

268
00:12:20,256 --> 00:12:24,621
uhm, you know, uh, a media consultant an you're trying

269
00:12:24,702 --> 00:12:25,187
to be,

270
00:12:25,187 --> 00:12:29,897
you know, a press secretary and you're trying to deal

271
00:12:29,986 --> 00:12:30,430
with.

272
00:12:30,430 --> 00:12:33,704
Uh, things that are way beyond your pay grade.

273
00:12:33,704 --> 00:12:36,859
It wears it you because you you know that you

274
00:12:36,929 --> 00:12:40,996
don't have the expertise really to balance it while you're

275
00:12:41,066 --> 00:12:44,432
trying to get inside the stadium and win a case.

276
00:12:44,432 --> 00:12:47,706
And so I, I remember that being the challenge,

277
00:12:47,706 --> 00:12:51,299
which was OK. I gotta stop worrying about the other

278
00:12:51,370 --> 00:12:53,906
grenades that are falling around me.

279
00:12:53,906 --> 00:12:57,705
I gotta focus on this case dealing with my adversaries

280
00:12:57,775 --> 00:13:01,081
who were very worthy and come up with you know,

281
00:13:01,081 --> 00:13:04,512
the. Kind of issues that that could raise reasonable doubt,

282
00:13:04,512 --> 00:13:07,160
and that was the challenge.

283
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,437
So is there a moment in particular Brian,

284
00:13:10,437 --> 00:13:14,040
where you realized that?

285
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:15,874
There was so much here media,

286
00:13:15,874 --> 00:13:19,803
circus, everything else you'd never be able to control all

287
00:13:19,871 --> 00:13:21,700
those factors and you just.

288
00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:25,717
Came back to yourself and using the sports analogy,

289
00:13:25,717 --> 00:13:28,180
it reminds me of.

290
00:13:28,180 --> 00:13:30,675
Playing a game where you just said I gotta play

291
00:13:30,728 --> 00:13:31,471
within myself,

292
00:13:31,471 --> 00:13:34,218
I'm not gonna. I can't control all the things around

293
00:13:34,270 --> 00:13:36,172
Maine and you just came back to you.

294
00:13:36,172 --> 00:13:37,739
And then you got in the flow.

295
00:13:37,739 --> 00:13:40,444
Was there a particular like day or time period when

296
00:13:40,497 --> 00:13:41,134
that happen?

297
00:13:41,134 --> 00:13:44,077
View it really was. Just shortly before we went to

298
00:13:44,136 --> 00:13:46,020
Pittsburgh to pick the jury and.

299
00:13:46,020 --> 00:13:50,245
I remember that we had gone immediate or because we

300
00:13:50,328 --> 00:13:52,068
were trying to we we,

301
00:13:52,068 --> 00:13:54,601
we actually thought the Royal,

302
00:13:54,601 --> 00:13:58,507
we thought. That we needed to get out there that

303
00:13:58,589 --> 00:14:02,251
we needed to get out there and make the case.

304
00:14:02,251 --> 00:14:05,649
and I remember going on a couple of you know,

305
00:14:05,649 --> 00:14:10,007
nationally syndicated shows and thinking we had done well.

306
00:14:10,007 --> 00:14:13,393
And you know there'd be a second or two a

307
00:14:13,476 --> 00:14:17,110
grab for lack of a better description where?

308
00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:20,228
We told a nice story for about 5 minutes and

309
00:14:20,299 --> 00:14:22,283
then there would be 5 hours.

310
00:14:22,283 --> 00:14:25,856
You know, after that of a media barrage from any

311
00:14:25,930 --> 00:14:30,099
number of women or lawyers representing the women in new

312
00:14:30,173 --> 00:14:31,960
cases and this and that.

313
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:33,657
And you know it was it.

314
00:14:33,657 --> 00:14:35,425
We were always, I think,

315
00:14:35,425 --> 00:14:38,282
trying to to to go one bridge too far an

316
00:14:38,353 --> 00:14:41,425
we it was a journey that was never going to

317
00:14:41,496 --> 00:14:42,496
be successful.

318
00:14:42,496 --> 00:14:45,608
and I remember at some point I'm saying no,

319
00:14:45,608 --> 00:14:47,800
I'm done with this. Forget it,

320
00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,520
we've lost the media battle.

321
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,450
We were never going to win it.

322
00:14:52,450 --> 00:14:55,252
Let's go pick us a jury in in Pitts Burg

323
00:14:55,322 --> 00:14:58,194
and let's go figure out a way to win this

324
00:14:58,264 --> 00:15:01,556
case and and that really was always going to be

325
00:15:01,556 --> 00:15:06,405
the biggest trick because you're you're journeying into this into

326
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,210
this media barrage for the sake of trying to find.

327
00:15:10,210 --> 00:15:12,739
Uh, something to give to a jury pool that you

328
00:15:12,795 --> 00:15:15,324
will pick from one day where we're all 100 of

329
00:15:15,380 --> 00:15:18,077
them are not going to think that the guy sitting

330
00:15:18,077 --> 00:15:20,524
next to you is as has been portrayed by the

331
00:15:20,581 --> 00:15:20,922
media,

332
00:15:20,922 --> 00:15:23,506
and so you're going to go out there and you're

333
00:15:23,562 --> 00:15:26,089
going to blow your horn and and what you have

334
00:15:26,146 --> 00:15:29,291
to realize is particularly in the case of that magnitude

335
00:15:29,291 --> 00:15:32,504
that had received the kind of what I'll call adverse

336
00:15:32,566 --> 00:15:35,470
publicity that I don't think ever had an equal.

337
00:15:35,470 --> 00:15:39,573
Um? That you're never gonna be able to do it,

338
00:15:39,573 --> 00:15:41,295
and so do what you do best.

339
00:15:41,295 --> 00:15:43,693
Go pick a jury, go try and find 12 uh,

340
00:15:43,693 --> 00:15:47,383
that you could possibly find that'll be the least affected,

341
00:15:47,383 --> 00:15:49,720
at least saturated by by that garage,

342
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,196
and try and win a case.

343
00:15:51,196 --> 00:15:54,108
and I remember it being just before we left for

344
00:15:54,170 --> 00:15:57,640
Pittsburgh to pick our jewelry where I basically had had

345
00:15:57,702 --> 00:15:59,313
finally found Comfort Inn.

346
00:15:59,313 --> 00:16:02,440
OK, now we're going to start the game.

347
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,508
If that answers before you,

348
00:16:05,508 --> 00:16:08,340
so Brian, if we can.

349
00:16:08,340 --> 00:16:11,334
Ask you So what you just described is is,

350
00:16:11,334 --> 00:16:15,178
you know, is fairly astounding and sort of comes down

351
00:16:15,250 --> 00:16:15,468
to.

352
00:16:15,468 --> 00:16:18,452
I want to win when I get in the courtroom

353
00:16:18,524 --> 00:16:18,961
right?

354
00:16:18,961 --> 00:16:21,670
And an. And so I gotta focus on that.

355
00:16:21,670 --> 00:16:24,521
Can you identify things about yourself,

356
00:16:24,521 --> 00:16:27,301
whether they are from your upbringing,

357
00:16:27,301 --> 00:16:31,008
weather there from battle scars as a lawyer that you

358
00:16:31,079 --> 00:16:35,427
can specifically identify that other lawyers can take from to

359
00:16:35,499 --> 00:16:38,350
get to the place that you're describing?

360
00:16:38,350 --> 00:16:43,215
Well, if you're not enormously competitive in some measure,

361
00:16:43,215 --> 00:16:46,604
you have a hard time doing what we do for

362
00:16:46,687 --> 00:16:47,431
a living.

363
00:16:47,431 --> 00:16:50,242
Um, trial lawyers. You know,

364
00:16:50,242 --> 00:16:52,409
for them to be successful,

365
00:16:52,409 --> 00:16:56,874
they have to compete and they have to sometimes compete

366
00:16:56,955 --> 00:16:59,228
against insurmountable odds.

367
00:16:59,228 --> 00:17:02,905
And if you're not driven to win and driven to

368
00:17:02,987 --> 00:17:03,641
succeed,

369
00:17:03,641 --> 00:17:07,091
you need to find a different line of work.

370
00:17:07,091 --> 00:17:11,103
I don't want to interrupt you except to say this,

371
00:17:11,103 --> 00:17:13,670
tell us what made you like that.

372
00:17:13,670 --> 00:17:15,272
Part of my DNA. I mean,

373
00:17:15,272 --> 00:17:17,876
I, you know from the time I was a kid.

374
00:17:17,876 --> 00:17:20,813
UM, I I was enormously competitive an an I,

375
00:17:20,813 --> 00:17:22,549
you know I played sports.

376
00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:25,672
I was never the greatest athlete on any team I

377
00:17:25,740 --> 00:17:26,555
ever played,

378
00:17:26,555 --> 00:17:28,424
but I was always, you know,

379
00:17:28,424 --> 00:17:32,053
the most competitive. I don't ever remember being on a

380
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:35,412
team in high school or in college where I clearly

381
00:17:35,479 --> 00:17:38,772
was not the most competitive to a fault person on

382
00:17:38,772 --> 00:17:40,174
the team. I mean, I,

383
00:17:40,174 --> 00:17:44,112
I even have some regrets about how enormously competitive I

384
00:17:44,179 --> 00:17:44,780
was then.

385
00:17:44,780 --> 00:17:47,002
When I got a you know out of out of

386
00:17:47,065 --> 00:17:50,556
college and realized that I couldn't hit the long ball.

387
00:17:50,556 --> 00:17:53,095
Uh, and was going to have to go work for

388
00:17:53,159 --> 00:17:56,333
a living and went to law school I was competitive.

389
00:17:56,333 --> 00:17:58,811
Uh, I wanted to Excel and when I got to

390
00:17:58,874 --> 00:18:01,670
the Philadelphia district attorney's office,

391
00:18:01,670 --> 00:18:04,244
I didn't want to be a good trial lawyer.

392
00:18:04,244 --> 00:18:07,823
I wanted to be the best criminal lawyer in Philadelphia.

393
00:18:07,823 --> 00:18:10,748
I want to be the best District Attorney in the

394
00:18:10,812 --> 00:18:12,720
country and I knew because of.

395
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,613
Unfortunately, my genetic makeup that that was always going to

396
00:18:16,676 --> 00:18:18,120
be probably impossible.

397
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:19,996
But I figured if I shot high,

398
00:18:19,996 --> 00:18:22,059
uh, I'd always been in the hunt,

399
00:18:22,059 --> 00:18:24,497
being the hunt. And so I I don't know.

400
00:18:24,497 --> 00:18:26,935
It's it's anything that you can teach.

401
00:18:26,935 --> 00:18:30,061
I don't know if it's anything that you can learn.

402
00:18:30,061 --> 00:18:31,499
I think it's in eight,

403
00:18:31,499 --> 00:18:34,480
and I think if they if you're not by definition

404
00:18:34,543 --> 00:18:35,875
competitively driven,

405
00:18:35,875 --> 00:18:38,527
then you need to find away in your life to

406
00:18:38,591 --> 00:18:42,001
accomplish that in order to be a successful trial are.

407
00:18:42,001 --> 00:18:45,242
I've never met one. what I would call a great

408
00:18:45,314 --> 00:18:46,250
trial lawyer.

409
00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:50,548
Who's not driven an who's not competitive even when they're

410
00:18:50,620 --> 00:18:52,150
pretending not to be.

411
00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:55,540
So Brian, what took you to law school that started

412
00:18:55,608 --> 00:18:57,438
the soldier and you played?

413
00:18:57,438 --> 00:19:00,049
I know you played baseball in college.

414
00:19:00,049 --> 00:19:04,587
You're very competitive there. What about the law and not

415
00:19:04,667 --> 00:19:06,020
some other field?

416
00:19:06,020 --> 00:19:10,630
Well, you know it's interesting I I remember I was.

417
00:19:10,630 --> 00:19:13,767
I was in college and I I I took a

418
00:19:13,862 --> 00:19:18,330
course in public speaking in in first semester.

419
00:19:18,330 --> 00:19:20,788
Um of my junior year,

420
00:19:20,788 --> 00:19:24,189
and um. In the end of the semester,

421
00:19:24,189 --> 00:19:27,290
my professor asked me to come back.

422
00:19:27,290 --> 00:19:31,143
And help teach it the next year I had had

423
00:19:31,237 --> 00:19:32,740
some success in.

424
00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:36,626
In the class an in public speaking in that class

425
00:19:36,707 --> 00:19:40,107
and it kind of championed me to try to get

426
00:19:40,188 --> 00:19:41,160
involved in.

427
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,467
In potentially law school and I wasn't a great student

428
00:19:45,547 --> 00:19:50,253
and thought that there were more important things than than

429
00:19:50,333 --> 00:19:51,450
than studying.

430
00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:55,740
And and yet, um, I found myself pretty good at

431
00:19:55,833 --> 00:20:00,030
this idea of speaking in public and and dumb.

432
00:20:00,030 --> 00:20:02,713
And so I became enamored with the idea of Law

433
00:20:02,772 --> 00:20:06,111
school I always been interested in politics in my house.

434
00:20:06,111 --> 00:20:08,800
When you grew up, there was a picture of John

435
00:20:08,859 --> 00:20:11,070
F Kennedy sitting in our living room,

436
00:20:11,070 --> 00:20:13,786
so I was always fascinated by great speakers,

437
00:20:13,786 --> 00:20:16,265
great orders. So I would listen as a kid.

438
00:20:16,265 --> 00:20:19,119
We had this cassette tape and I remember it when

439
00:20:19,178 --> 00:20:21,913
I had a cassette of the great speeches of John

440
00:20:21,972 --> 00:20:24,885
Kennedy and Martin Luther King an I remember as a

441
00:20:24,885 --> 00:20:28,289
kid being fascinated by that level of brilliance and then

442
00:20:28,348 --> 00:20:30,080
it all kind of came together.

443
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,560
Now I'm gonna look now I'm in college and.

444
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,558
And I gotta make some decisions about what I do,

445
00:20:35,558 --> 00:20:38,215
what I would want to do when law just seems

446
00:20:38,277 --> 00:20:40,871
to be something that I might be able to be

447
00:20:40,933 --> 00:20:41,860
pretty good at.

448
00:20:41,860 --> 00:20:44,980
Ironically, when I come when I got the law school,

449
00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:47,706
UM, I, I really was committed to the idea of

450
00:20:47,768 --> 00:20:49,875
being involved in law enforcement.

451
00:20:49,875 --> 00:20:53,233
I thought about going to the FBI or the Secret

452
00:20:53,306 --> 00:20:53,890
Service.

453
00:20:53,890 --> 00:20:56,694
And it was a law professor who who rest in

454
00:20:56,761 --> 00:20:59,499
peace in a great man named Brian Freeman,

455
00:20:59,499 --> 00:21:03,039
who convinced me that it would be an enormous mistake

456
00:21:03,106 --> 00:21:04,909
for me not to practice law,

457
00:21:04,909 --> 00:21:07,983
and he convinced me that if I really wanted to

458
00:21:08,050 --> 00:21:10,122
be involved in law enforcement,

459
00:21:10,122 --> 00:21:12,101
that I do so as a prosecutor,

460
00:21:12,101 --> 00:21:13,619
and that's what I did,

461
00:21:13,619 --> 00:21:17,088
you know, got the law school and was fascinated with

462
00:21:17,155 --> 00:21:19,623
the idea of being in law enforcement,

463
00:21:19,623 --> 00:21:22,526
while while being a lawyer and I went to the

464
00:21:22,592 --> 00:21:24,110
Philly Diese office so.

465
00:21:24,110 --> 00:21:26,475
Let me ask you question about public speaking,

466
00:21:26,475 --> 00:21:29,351
so then this is a question about the technical skills

467
00:21:29,405 --> 00:21:31,901
of a lawyer and also about how to achieve your

468
00:21:31,955 --> 00:21:34,180
own your potential in your own greatness.

469
00:21:34,180 --> 00:21:35,743
If we had a, um,

470
00:21:35,743 --> 00:21:41,390
a panel of blue ribbon lawyers and nonlawyers listening.

471
00:21:41,390 --> 00:21:43,881
And uhm, we want to take you through and I

472
00:21:43,940 --> 00:21:46,431
want to see your process of creativity we.

473
00:21:46,431 --> 00:21:49,538
So we had these trial lawyers who had psychologists.

474
00:21:49,538 --> 00:21:53,395
We had legal historians there years from now reviewing the

475
00:21:53,461 --> 00:21:55,190
closing in the Cosby case.

476
00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:58,719
And by all accounts which you rose to the occasion

477
00:21:58,789 --> 00:22:02,600
and you used those public speaking skills and you had.

478
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,397
From what I understand in our research,

479
00:22:05,397 --> 00:22:08,671
she had the jurors with you like every step of

480
00:22:08,743 --> 00:22:09,312
the way.

481
00:22:09,312 --> 00:22:13,324
And you nailed it. And they looked into your heart

482
00:22:13,404 --> 00:22:14,527
and your mind,

483
00:22:14,527 --> 00:22:17,114
and they had perfect knowledge of you,

484
00:22:17,114 --> 00:22:20,390
and they would dissecting what you did.

485
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:23,130
What would they see?

486
00:22:23,130 --> 00:22:27,339
You know, uh? I think the only way I can

487
00:22:27,445 --> 00:22:31,128
answer it is is what I tried to do.

488
00:22:31,128 --> 00:22:33,752
Um, I remember. You know,

489
00:22:33,752 --> 00:22:38,588
I I, I've always believed that you have to find

490
00:22:38,691 --> 00:22:41,880
some group commonality meaning.

491
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,634
I have to be one of them.

492
00:22:43,634 --> 00:22:45,388
I'm outside the jury box,

493
00:22:45,388 --> 00:22:48,019
but I need to get inside the jury box.

494
00:22:48,019 --> 00:22:51,007
This was this was a jury that had left their

495
00:22:51,075 --> 00:22:54,810
homes um from Pittsburgh and been whisked away and take

496
00:22:54,878 --> 00:22:58,002
into hotel rooms and brought into a courtroom.

497
00:22:58,002 --> 00:23:01,070
And so I first tried to think of a way

498
00:23:01,150 --> 00:23:02,200
that I could.

499
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,910
Have them identify with me so I can identify with

500
00:23:05,986 --> 00:23:09,090
that I was staying in a hotel and eating.

501
00:23:09,090 --> 00:23:12,434
Out and I remember I kind of began the closing

502
00:23:12,507 --> 00:23:12,870
with.

503
00:23:12,870 --> 00:23:15,288
With that idea I I talked about being at the

504
00:23:15,343 --> 00:23:16,003
Shake Shack,

505
00:23:16,003 --> 00:23:19,730
which is not too far from the Montgomery County Courthouse.

506
00:23:19,730 --> 00:23:24,325
Which was true? And eating uhm dinner?

507
00:23:24,325 --> 00:23:27,810
Uh, like before the closing.

508
00:23:27,810 --> 00:23:30,433
And while I was there and what did that do

509
00:23:30,496 --> 00:23:33,306
that that kind of let them know that I'm just

510
00:23:33,368 --> 00:23:33,993
like them?

511
00:23:33,993 --> 00:23:36,891
And and then I'm eating at Shake Shack and you

512
00:23:36,954 --> 00:23:37,269
know,

513
00:23:37,269 --> 00:23:39,372
not at some fancy restaurant Ann,

514
00:23:39,372 --> 00:23:41,165
that while there I saw girl,

515
00:23:41,165 --> 00:23:42,834
young girl and her father.

516
00:23:42,834 --> 00:23:46,186
She's young kid and he was giving her ice cream

517
00:23:46,258 --> 00:23:48,540
and she was staring at his eyes.

518
00:23:48,540 --> 00:23:52,211
And. I I let them know that I was stunned

519
00:23:52,301 --> 00:23:56,151
by what I had saw because it reminded me of

520
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:56,688
that.

521
00:23:56,688 --> 00:23:59,809
I'm not so far long ago that I was with

522
00:23:59,889 --> 00:24:03,969
my children when they were little and I looked into

523
00:24:04,049 --> 00:24:06,770
their eyes in order to see me and.

524
00:24:06,770 --> 00:24:08,783
Uhm, I was reminded at the time when I could

525
00:24:08,829 --> 00:24:10,980
do that when they were young and when they were

526
00:24:11,026 --> 00:24:12,856
young and they you look into their eyes.

527
00:24:12,856 --> 00:24:15,137
What do they see? They see a great man that

528
00:24:15,190 --> 00:24:17,100
that that is never has never failed.

529
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:19,035
And then as you grow older,

530
00:24:19,035 --> 00:24:22,710
of course you know you you.

531
00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:26,204
They grow and they see obviously not the naivete of

532
00:24:26,272 --> 00:24:27,300
a child's eyes,

533
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:30,515
but but real life, and they see you for who

534
00:24:30,590 --> 00:24:33,580
you are and your failures in your flaws.

535
00:24:33,580 --> 00:24:36,610
And.

536
00:24:36,610 --> 00:24:38,413
I then looked over to Mr.

537
00:24:38,413 --> 00:24:40,423
Cosby, and I said, You know,

538
00:24:40,423 --> 00:24:43,704
now you have to understand that you know he has

539
00:24:43,774 --> 00:24:46,706
to live with the fact that for the rest of

540
00:24:46,776 --> 00:24:50,406
his life his children's eyes will reflect a man that

541
00:24:50,406 --> 00:24:52,070
had failed as a husband.

542
00:24:52,070 --> 00:24:54,506
It is perhaps a father,

543
00:24:54,506 --> 00:24:58,088
uhm, and. It's a long way of saying,

544
00:24:58,088 --> 00:25:01,758
I I, I think that I have always embraced the

545
00:25:01,841 --> 00:25:04,760
view that in in closing and giving.

546
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,240
Speeches to juries that you needed to do two things

547
00:25:08,308 --> 00:25:10,560
you need to humanize your client.

548
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,381
You not. You need to embrace them and have them

549
00:25:13,441 --> 00:25:15,061
embrace you as one of them,

550
00:25:15,061 --> 00:25:17,300
and that's where you start.

551
00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:20,318
And now we're all together or all human beings.

552
00:25:20,318 --> 00:25:22,455
They failed, they've fallen down.

553
00:25:22,455 --> 00:25:25,598
They've dealt with adversity. You're one of them.

554
00:25:25,598 --> 00:25:28,290
There, one of you. And so is he.

555
00:25:28,290 --> 00:25:31,704
And now we can start the process of talking about

556
00:25:31,774 --> 00:25:32,471
this case,

557
00:25:32,471 --> 00:25:36,379
because once you remove, you know his infidelity from the

558
00:25:36,447 --> 00:25:36,790
case.

559
00:25:36,790 --> 00:25:38,818
And they get over that because it was hard for

560
00:25:38,862 --> 00:25:39,082
them.

561
00:25:39,082 --> 00:25:41,318
They get over. That is Bill Cosby's not supposed to

562
00:25:41,362 --> 00:25:42,151
be running around.

563
00:25:42,151 --> 00:25:44,970
He's not supposed to be living this kind of life.

564
00:25:44,970 --> 00:25:46,477
Once we I got them there,

565
00:25:46,477 --> 00:25:49,003
I thought I could get them home or get some

566
00:25:49,062 --> 00:25:50,765
of them home and so you know,

567
00:25:50,765 --> 00:25:53,192
every time I give a closing I try to find

568
00:25:53,251 --> 00:25:53,547
that.

569
00:25:53,547 --> 00:25:54,937
However, I can find it,

570
00:25:54,937 --> 00:25:55,980
you know. So I I,

571
00:25:55,980 --> 00:25:58,857
you know I I will struggle sometimes to find that

572
00:25:58,916 --> 00:26:00,501
I've recently tried a case.

573
00:26:00,501 --> 00:26:03,653
You know, when another jurisdiction in in you know you

574
00:26:03,711 --> 00:26:05,929
got to kind of you got to kind of jump

575
00:26:05,988 --> 00:26:08,556
into that jury box and we were going to jump

576
00:26:08,556 --> 00:26:10,960
in there to be honest with them.

577
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,081
But you gotta have some some basis to jump in.

578
00:26:14,081 --> 00:26:17,506
You can't be a guy inexpensive suit and expect them

579
00:26:17,573 --> 00:26:20,058
to be listening to you for two hours.

580
00:26:20,058 --> 00:26:23,164
Uhm, so I. I don't know if that's the question

581
00:26:23,231 --> 00:26:24,109
you asked me,

582
00:26:24,109 --> 00:26:27,209
but I I, I remember that being so important to

583
00:26:27,276 --> 00:26:28,691
me in the Cosby case,

584
00:26:28,691 --> 00:26:31,015
and it really in every case I try.

585
00:26:31,015 --> 00:26:33,913
And then you spend the next hour and a half

586
00:26:33,981 --> 00:26:35,531
dismantling their case.

587
00:26:35,531 --> 00:26:37,589
But you gotta get there first,

588
00:26:37,589 --> 00:26:39,316
right? You spoke to them,

589
00:26:39,316 --> 00:26:40,976
not just from your head.

590
00:26:40,976 --> 00:26:43,106
You connected with them. As people,

591
00:26:43,106 --> 00:26:45,368
and that's what I think a lot of trial lawyers

592
00:26:45,417 --> 00:26:47,876
were so used to trying to strategize and figure it

593
00:26:47,925 --> 00:26:48,122
out.

594
00:26:48,122 --> 00:26:50,677
We don't do that. And it was funny.

595
00:26:50,677 --> 00:26:55,120
It it. It's interesting because I really believe.

596
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:58,843
Like I I try to create an affection with my

597
00:26:58,930 --> 00:26:59,363
jury.

598
00:26:59,363 --> 00:27:02,079
Like I I'll be honest with you,

599
00:27:02,079 --> 00:27:05,276
that jury was remarkable. You know,

600
00:27:05,276 --> 00:27:07,830
I just stop back and think about you took these

601
00:27:07,884 --> 00:27:08,971
people to 12 people.

602
00:27:08,971 --> 00:27:10,363
They go to work everyday,

603
00:27:10,363 --> 00:27:12,666
some of them older saw them younger there,

604
00:27:12,666 --> 00:27:15,825
removed from their homes. They're taking across the state.

605
00:27:15,825 --> 00:27:18,610
They sit in a courtroom and listen to.

606
00:27:18,610 --> 00:27:21,960
Whatever we're giving him for hours upon a time.

607
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,775
And I admired that as an American is A is,

608
00:27:24,775 --> 00:27:26,869
uh, as someone who's, you know,

609
00:27:26,869 --> 00:27:29,870
been in the system for a long time.

610
00:27:29,870 --> 00:27:33,515
And so it's easy for me because I really do

611
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,651
admire it and I and I try to to give

612
00:27:36,736 --> 00:27:37,160
them.

613
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,796
You know the truth, which is is to tell them

614
00:27:39,856 --> 00:27:41,414
how much that means to me,

615
00:27:41,414 --> 00:27:43,542
and then maybe give them something,

616
00:27:43,542 --> 00:27:46,284
anything I can I can give them that would make

617
00:27:46,343 --> 00:27:49,383
them think of me as something other than a criminal

618
00:27:49,443 --> 00:27:50,337
defense lawyer,

619
00:27:50,337 --> 00:27:52,996
whether it be a father or husband or friend.

620
00:27:52,996 --> 00:27:55,832
Or you know, a bad bad college baseball player,

621
00:27:55,832 --> 00:27:58,886
you know? I mean, anything that's going to strike a

622
00:27:58,946 --> 00:28:00,323
chord with one of them.

623
00:28:00,323 --> 00:28:03,630
Will say, you know, when I wouldn't mind having a

624
00:28:03,698 --> 00:28:04,980
beer with that guy.

625
00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:10,918
Um an because if you're about that to sell stuff

626
00:28:11,042 --> 00:28:12,526
to somebody?

627
00:28:12,526 --> 00:28:17,502
Uhm, sometimes hard stuff. If if you're not there kind

628
00:28:17,594 --> 00:28:18,239
of guy,

629
00:28:18,239 --> 00:28:22,620
they're not buying, particularly if if what you're selling is

630
00:28:22,691 --> 00:28:23,266
is hard.

631
00:28:23,266 --> 00:28:26,170
You know if if it's not black and white.

632
00:28:26,170 --> 00:28:28,931
If it's not that you know the the DNA.

633
00:28:28,931 --> 00:28:31,268
If it's not the The smoking gun,

634
00:28:31,268 --> 00:28:35,588
if you're trying to argue credibility and you're trying to

635
00:28:35,662 --> 00:28:40,279
argue inconsistencies and raise reasonable doubt if if if they

636
00:28:40,354 --> 00:28:41,620
are not with you.

637
00:28:41,620 --> 00:28:43,101
You got a long Rd to go,

638
00:28:43,101 --> 00:28:45,135
and so I'm I. I do my best and you

639
00:28:45,195 --> 00:28:48,007
know a lot of people will will you know dismiss

640
00:28:48,067 --> 00:28:48,845
this network?

641
00:28:48,845 --> 00:28:51,280
God, my God, you're acting your.

642
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,885
And it's true. I guess you are in in many

643
00:28:53,948 --> 00:28:54,965
respects acting,

644
00:28:54,965 --> 00:28:58,560
but I'll never find myself not being heartfelt.

645
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,947
Like and I don't know if it's something I created

646
00:29:02,016 --> 00:29:03,744
my mind or if it's there.

647
00:29:03,744 --> 00:29:05,585
If it's always been there,

648
00:29:05,585 --> 00:29:08,375
but I try to look into that box and find

649
00:29:08,445 --> 00:29:08,654
it,

650
00:29:08,654 --> 00:29:11,928
maybe it might be in in small numbers or large,

651
00:29:11,928 --> 00:29:15,202
but but you know, care about them a little bit,

652
00:29:15,202 --> 00:29:18,360
you know and and and think about them a little

653
00:29:18,428 --> 00:29:21,998
bit and what they're doing every day and how they're

654
00:29:22,067 --> 00:29:25,842
living their lives and the things that are important in

655
00:29:25,842 --> 00:29:28,570
their lives. 'cause more often than not.

656
00:29:28,570 --> 00:29:30,336
There's not that you know,

657
00:29:30,336 --> 00:29:34,680
there's not that separation that's obvious in a courtroom.

658
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,982
And so I don't know if I'm I'm I'm I'm

659
00:29:37,043 --> 00:29:38,073
letting you know,

660
00:29:38,073 --> 00:29:41,130
kind of where I know you're telling me exactly what

661
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:43,588
I want to know it's kind of where I come

662
00:29:43,648 --> 00:29:46,585
from and it's always been very easy to me because

663
00:29:46,585 --> 00:29:48,787
you know I'm not unlike most jurors.

664
00:29:48,787 --> 00:29:50,275
I look at quite frankly,

665
00:29:50,275 --> 00:29:53,251
even though they're from different walks of life,

666
00:29:53,251 --> 00:29:57,930
different different socioeconomic backgrounds or different races and sizes and

667
00:29:57,990 --> 00:30:00,870
colors and religions and all that kind of stuff.

668
00:30:00,870 --> 00:30:04,070
But at their core you know they all have some

669
00:30:04,141 --> 00:30:05,350
things in common.

670
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:08,106
And I try to find that and then make sure

671
00:30:08,173 --> 00:30:10,727
I've got it in some way in some story.

672
00:30:10,727 --> 00:30:13,897
And now we've all got something in common so we

673
00:30:13,964 --> 00:30:14,976
can go to work.

674
00:30:14,976 --> 00:30:18,540
So, Brian. How much of your ability to do that

675
00:30:18,618 --> 00:30:20,710
comes from how you grew up?

676
00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:22,203
How did you grow up?

677
00:30:22,203 --> 00:30:25,609
Did you? Did you grow up privileged as you grow

678
00:30:25,682 --> 00:30:25,899
up?

679
00:30:25,899 --> 00:30:28,956
You know now I'm struggling straight tell.

680
00:30:28,956 --> 00:30:31,160
Tell the folks how you grew up.

681
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,465
For me and then I grew up in a very,

682
00:30:33,465 --> 00:30:36,020
you know, modest middle class household.

683
00:30:36,020 --> 00:30:38,263
Both my parents worked worked hard.

684
00:30:38,263 --> 00:30:41,191
I don't think anybody made more than you know,

685
00:30:41,191 --> 00:30:43,807
$25,000 a year, yet we lived wonderfully.

686
00:30:43,807 --> 00:30:47,421
Uhm, you know, because my grandmother was home with this,

687
00:30:47,421 --> 00:30:50,403
she raised us. I don't remember a time where my

688
00:30:50,466 --> 00:30:50,910
mother,

689
00:30:50,910 --> 00:30:53,091
my. I think my mother didn't work.

690
00:30:53,091 --> 00:30:55,932
You know, I think a week after she gave birth

691
00:30:55,995 --> 00:30:57,826
to both my brother and I saw,

692
00:30:57,826 --> 00:31:01,470
you know, that's that's that's that was our household.

693
00:31:01,470 --> 00:31:02,968
Um, so that's easy and.

694
00:31:02,968 --> 00:31:04,340
And so, uh, you know,

695
00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:06,587
never had two cents. Quite frankly,

696
00:31:06,587 --> 00:31:09,707
growing up and and was very lucky with with with,

697
00:31:09,707 --> 00:31:12,536
you know, trying to get help from some of the

698
00:31:12,599 --> 00:31:15,365
colleges that I want to to get into them and

699
00:31:15,428 --> 00:31:18,068
to stay in them in the law schools and the

700
00:31:18,068 --> 00:31:20,224
like. So it was never easy.

701
00:31:20,224 --> 00:31:23,188
I was working my butt off um while playing sports

702
00:31:23,248 --> 00:31:25,184
and having job so that was easy.

703
00:31:25,184 --> 00:31:28,514
I also though which is interesting grew up in an

704
00:31:28,583 --> 00:31:28,930
area.

705
00:31:28,930 --> 00:31:32,440
That combined, um, you know some middle class and lower

706
00:31:32,503 --> 00:31:35,630
middle class with with some rich people and a lot

707
00:31:35,694 --> 00:31:38,757
of my teammates and friends had some money and I

708
00:31:38,757 --> 00:31:41,377
got a taste of that in terms of what kind

709
00:31:41,441 --> 00:31:44,636
of people they were and interacting with them on a

710
00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:46,809
level that I'd never seen before.

711
00:31:46,809 --> 00:31:48,804
So we kind of I kind of had a I

712
00:31:48,869 --> 00:31:51,057
think a perfect storm if you will,

713
00:31:51,057 --> 00:31:53,974
of an upbringing in that you're not going to.

714
00:31:53,974 --> 00:31:56,809
I'm never going to come across a jury that I

715
00:31:56,874 --> 00:31:57,905
can't relate to.

716
00:31:57,905 --> 00:31:59,870
I played sports with, you know.

717
00:31:59,870 --> 00:32:03,156
Kids of all shapes, sizes and colors had friends.

718
00:32:03,156 --> 00:32:05,390
You know my house was colorblind,

719
00:32:05,390 --> 00:32:08,327
so it's always been easy for me to relate to

720
00:32:08,394 --> 00:32:09,595
any type of juror.

721
00:32:09,595 --> 00:32:11,698
I practice law in Philadelphia,

722
00:32:11,698 --> 00:32:13,866
you know. So now coming forward,

723
00:32:13,866 --> 00:32:16,740
you know I go to work in the Philly Diese

724
00:32:16,810 --> 00:32:21,788
Office and I'm rubbing shoulders with detectives and district attorneys

725
00:32:21,858 --> 00:32:23,120
who are all races.

726
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,467
Men, women, and uh, and so it's really easy for

727
00:32:26,538 --> 00:32:28,247
me with that upbringing.

728
00:32:28,247 --> 00:32:30,775
With that background, yeah, I mean,

729
00:32:30,775 --> 00:32:32,741
you're you're when I tried,

730
00:32:32,741 --> 00:32:35,199
just push a little further on you.

731
00:32:35,199 --> 00:32:39,963
Which is that? You're being real humble because the competitiveness

732
00:32:40,034 --> 00:32:40,958
you describe.

733
00:32:40,958 --> 00:32:44,978
Being able to get your arms around that an deliver

734
00:32:45,059 --> 00:32:45,300
it.

735
00:32:45,300 --> 00:32:47,362
Two jurors in a uhm,

736
00:32:47,362 --> 00:32:49,916
you know, a truly humble,

737
00:32:49,916 --> 00:32:55,220
graceful way when it's driven by this like lion inside

738
00:32:55,318 --> 00:32:59,050
of you that has to be hard to control.

739
00:32:59,050 --> 00:33:02,817
An and anyone who's ever seen you close describes you.

740
00:33:02,817 --> 00:33:04,255
As you know. I mean,

741
00:33:04,255 --> 00:33:06,857
you're, you're folksy. Your graceful,

742
00:33:06,857 --> 00:33:09,733
your eloquent, all those things together.

743
00:33:09,733 --> 00:33:13,627
We talked to lawyers about how you're keeping that under

744
00:33:13,697 --> 00:33:14,253
control.

745
00:33:14,253 --> 00:33:16,171
Well, you know you have to.

746
00:33:16,171 --> 00:33:18,705
I mean, I, when I was in prosecutor,

747
00:33:18,705 --> 00:33:22,392
particularly early stages, I was all one speed and it

748
00:33:22,462 --> 00:33:23,088
was hard.

749
00:33:23,088 --> 00:33:25,759
And it was heavy, and it was powerful,

750
00:33:25,759 --> 00:33:28,977
and it was booming. and I remember going down,

751
00:33:28,977 --> 00:33:30,940
and I always tell. Well folks,

752
00:33:30,940 --> 00:33:33,548
you know, take a ride every now and then I

753
00:33:33,611 --> 00:33:33,859
got.

754
00:33:33,859 --> 00:33:36,284
I was one of a couple days sent down to

755
00:33:36,346 --> 00:33:36,657
that.

756
00:33:36,657 --> 00:33:38,785
I don't know if it exists anymore,

757
00:33:38,785 --> 00:33:41,096
but it was a. It was down in Houston,

758
00:33:41,096 --> 00:33:43,320
TX and it was like a Top Gun kind of

759
00:33:43,381 --> 00:33:45,049
conference for prosecutors.

760
00:33:45,049 --> 00:33:47,877
Not young prosecutor and I got a chance to see

761
00:33:47,939 --> 00:33:50,644
some of the best prosecutors in the country.

762
00:33:50,644 --> 00:33:53,278
I mean guys from the South who and then you

763
00:33:53,340 --> 00:33:56,096
want to talk about guys that can bring it and

764
00:33:56,158 --> 00:33:59,037
women that can bring it an I remembered then we

765
00:33:59,037 --> 00:34:00,740
we won't into a competition.

766
00:34:00,740 --> 00:34:03,870
And I kept, um, winning.

767
00:34:03,870 --> 00:34:05,906
An we got the very end an I was going

768
00:34:05,961 --> 00:34:07,612
against this guy from Houston,

769
00:34:07,612 --> 00:34:09,937
TX. Uhm and he was young guy too 'cause it

770
00:34:09,992 --> 00:34:10,324
again.

771
00:34:10,324 --> 00:34:13,490
Most of the lawyers were young and learning.

772
00:34:13,490 --> 00:34:15,032
In when we finished, uhm,

773
00:34:15,032 --> 00:34:17,747
I didn't win. I came in second and I'll never

774
00:34:17,808 --> 00:34:18,411
forget it.

775
00:34:18,411 --> 00:34:20,605
One of the guys who protect me said,

776
00:34:20,605 --> 00:34:23,332
you know, Brian, I'll tell you what you know,

777
00:34:23,332 --> 00:34:26,540
give it a closing speech is kind of like sex.

778
00:34:26,540 --> 00:34:30,245
And it really depends on what kind of sexy like

779
00:34:30,324 --> 00:34:33,872
and Brian you know you're kind of sex is hard

780
00:34:33,950 --> 00:34:34,660
and fast.

781
00:34:34,660 --> 00:34:40,370
And the winner winner was making love to me.

782
00:34:40,370 --> 00:34:44,358
And he took his time and he built it and

783
00:34:44,458 --> 00:34:45,355
build it,

784
00:34:45,355 --> 00:34:48,026
and he man. And then he want me over and

785
00:34:48,093 --> 00:34:50,497
I never forgot that an I tried that.

786
00:34:50,497 --> 00:34:51,730
I try to start off.

787
00:34:51,730 --> 00:34:55,787
You know, particularly Closings. And even in my cross examination

788
00:34:55,849 --> 00:34:56,598
build do it.

789
00:34:56,598 --> 00:34:58,139
And now I can get there.

790
00:34:58,139 --> 00:35:01,077
I don't want to mislead you with all humble pie

791
00:35:01,139 --> 00:35:02,452
and everything aside.

792
00:35:02,452 --> 00:35:05,148
I mean I you know I get the point sometimes

793
00:35:05,211 --> 00:35:06,026
and Closings,

794
00:35:06,026 --> 00:35:09,713
particularly if I've got the ability to just show rightness

795
00:35:09,775 --> 00:35:10,525
indignation.

796
00:35:10,525 --> 00:35:13,268
To show that, and to shout from the from the

797
00:35:13,330 --> 00:35:15,886
cheap seats and sometimes shudder jurors.

798
00:35:15,886 --> 00:35:18,150
But I've found that jurors.

799
00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:21,679
Don't like to get yelled at for an hour and

800
00:35:21,761 --> 00:35:22,335
a half?

801
00:35:22,335 --> 00:35:25,330
Uhm an I I I want to blend art.

802
00:35:25,330 --> 00:35:27,951
And compassion an feelings an aside.

803
00:35:27,951 --> 00:35:31,956
And so I've always tried to sometimes suppress the anger

804
00:35:32,027 --> 00:35:35,531
that I've caused myself to having these Closings.

805
00:35:35,531 --> 00:35:38,860
'cause If you don't have it then you can't win.

806
00:35:38,860 --> 00:35:42,575
And bring them to that point where by the end

807
00:35:42,658 --> 00:35:46,291
you know we're ready to run out and went out

808
00:35:46,373 --> 00:35:48,850
on the field and win the game.

809
00:35:48,850 --> 00:35:51,348
Or run back into that jury box and come back

810
00:35:51,405 --> 00:35:52,881
with a not guilty verdict.

811
00:35:52,881 --> 00:35:54,393
And when I was prosecutor,

812
00:35:54,393 --> 00:35:56,185
it I finally got to that point.

813
00:35:56,185 --> 00:35:59,610
By the time I left homicide and left Adeaze Office.

814
00:35:59,610 --> 00:36:02,780
I thought I had. I had figured that out.

815
00:36:02,780 --> 00:36:06,863
That you gotta get there and sometimes you know that

816
00:36:06,941 --> 00:36:09,532
form of of sex is a heck of a lot

817
00:36:09,610 --> 00:36:10,160
better.

818
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,746
What what you describing? To me is is you describing

819
00:36:15,854 --> 00:36:16,176
it.

820
00:36:16,176 --> 00:36:21,330
Kind of containment and emotional control.

821
00:36:21,330 --> 00:36:24,930
That it takes a lot of discipline to have.

822
00:36:24,930 --> 00:36:32,470
And I. I agree with whoever that person was gave

823
00:36:32,627 --> 00:36:33,255
you.

824
00:36:33,255 --> 00:36:38,263
That feedback it's it's a lot nicer to be made

825
00:36:38,372 --> 00:36:40,440
love zoo than just.

826
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,170
Receipt made love not made love to.

827
00:36:44,170 --> 00:36:47,212
I made love to let's leave it at that last

828
00:36:47,284 --> 00:36:51,195
question on Cosby because that case was such an iconic

829
00:36:51,268 --> 00:36:51,630
case.

830
00:36:51,630 --> 00:36:55,611
Did it change you in some way that case and

831
00:36:55,704 --> 00:36:58,204
what did you learn from it?

832
00:36:58,204 --> 00:37:01,857
The you you employ now as a lawyer or as

833
00:37:01,948 --> 00:37:02,770
a person?

834
00:37:02,770 --> 00:37:05,578
Yeah, well it. It certainly changed me.

835
00:37:05,578 --> 00:37:07,473
Uhm, I may be affected me,

836
00:37:07,473 --> 00:37:10,962
uh, you know when you try case that magnitude and

837
00:37:11,033 --> 00:37:12,457
then you go through,

838
00:37:12,457 --> 00:37:17,543
you know a week. Or jury deliberates the jury deliberate

839
00:37:17,634 --> 00:37:21,540
in that case longer than it took to try it.

840
00:37:21,540 --> 00:37:25,291
And. You deal with it for a year of of

841
00:37:25,390 --> 00:37:29,240
really what could only be described as.

842
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:32,866
As a. Controlled madness when you try a case of

843
00:37:32,943 --> 00:37:36,338
that magnitude it takes a little bit of you.

844
00:37:36,338 --> 00:37:37,810
You know I always say.

845
00:37:37,810 --> 00:37:39,538
And I've told jurors this,

846
00:37:39,538 --> 00:37:42,290
and I may even told the Cosby during this.

847
00:37:42,290 --> 00:37:45,748
You know when you try these cases and you try

848
00:37:45,824 --> 00:37:46,900
one like that.

849
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:49,744
It takes a little piece of your soul.

850
00:37:49,744 --> 00:37:51,465
It takes a lot of you,

851
00:37:51,465 --> 00:37:54,394
um? And Uhm, I remember I,

852
00:37:54,394 --> 00:37:56,821
you know, if I wasn't right,

853
00:37:56,821 --> 00:37:59,917
probably that summer. Uhm, you know.

854
00:37:59,917 --> 00:38:04,338
And and then you know not getting the opportunity to

855
00:38:04,423 --> 00:38:05,188
retry it.

856
00:38:05,188 --> 00:38:08,368
And and all that that went with that.

857
00:38:08,368 --> 00:38:12,379
And so yeah, I don't know that I will ever

858
00:38:12,474 --> 00:38:13,620
be the same.

859
00:38:13,620 --> 00:38:17,209
Uhm, I guess people who know me would be able

860
00:38:17,289 --> 00:38:20,718
to better say how I've changed as a lawyer,

861
00:38:20,718 --> 00:38:24,425
I learned a lot. I learned a lot about myself.

862
00:38:24,425 --> 00:38:26,720
I learned a lot about.

863
00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:30,210
Handling the media. I learned a lot about.

864
00:38:30,210 --> 00:38:34,574
Um? Some of the people are that I didn't know

865
00:38:34,671 --> 00:38:38,259
before that trial and my adversaries.

866
00:38:38,259 --> 00:38:41,000
And, uh, so I, you know.

867
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,286
I don't know if I do things any differently now,

868
00:38:44,286 --> 00:38:47,639
uhm, I think I've got the benefit of that wisdom.

869
00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:51,450
Uhm, and yeah, um, did it beat me up?

870
00:38:51,450 --> 00:38:54,425
100%. Who Brian didn't? Is it fair to say you

871
00:38:54,491 --> 00:38:58,656
learned that basically you could withstand anything as a lawyer

872
00:38:58,723 --> 00:39:00,111
and he kind of stage,

873
00:39:00,111 --> 00:39:01,602
no matter how big it was?

874
00:39:01,602 --> 00:39:05,090
Yeah, and you know what's interesting about that.

875
00:39:05,090 --> 00:39:10,158
I never doubted that it's funny you say that because

876
00:39:10,256 --> 00:39:12,010
the only times in.

877
00:39:12,010 --> 00:39:16,351
Hate to say it. In my life where I'm really

878
00:39:16,452 --> 00:39:17,260
at home.

879
00:39:17,260 --> 00:39:20,090
An I feel right.

880
00:39:20,090 --> 00:39:23,603
Is is one I'm about to close the jury and

881
00:39:23,688 --> 00:39:25,830
I know that sounds crazy.

882
00:39:25,830 --> 00:39:29,356
But it it's I feel like I'm home,

883
00:39:29,356 --> 00:39:33,010
I feel like. This is what I'm supposed to be

884
00:39:33,093 --> 00:39:33,591
doing.

885
00:39:33,591 --> 00:39:36,400
This is where I'm supposed to be and.

886
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,270
Um?

887
00:39:38,270 --> 00:39:39,749
I I wish I remember it.

888
00:39:39,749 --> 00:39:41,722
The next bunch of times on you.

889
00:39:41,722 --> 00:39:43,550
Nervous it.

890
00:39:43,550 --> 00:39:47,098
Yeah, right up until I stand up and then it's

891
00:39:47,176 --> 00:39:48,280
just I'm home.

892
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:53,460
Now what happens before what happens after?

893
00:39:53,460 --> 00:39:56,599
I'm a mess. I mean,

894
00:39:56,599 --> 00:40:00,620
I'm a mess and I am.

895
00:40:00,620 --> 00:40:03,151
Not to be, and I've always been that way when

896
00:40:03,208 --> 00:40:04,164
I was a Dai mean.

897
00:40:04,164 --> 00:40:06,983
They said they used. They used to make jokes about

898
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:07,209
me.

899
00:40:07,209 --> 00:40:09,580
I would do laps of City Hall until my jury

900
00:40:09,636 --> 00:40:10,088
came in.

901
00:40:10,088 --> 00:40:11,306
And if the jury went,

902
00:40:11,306 --> 00:40:12,635
went out for the night,

903
00:40:12,635 --> 00:40:15,287
I'd come back in the morning and continue to do

904
00:40:15,343 --> 00:40:15,625
laps.

905
00:40:15,625 --> 00:40:18,449
And I'm not saying while the jury is deliberating.

906
00:40:18,449 --> 00:40:21,596
I'm not great in. A pre trial?

907
00:40:21,596 --> 00:40:25,790
Uh, but in terms of uhm.

908
00:40:25,790 --> 00:40:29,140
Where I I feel peace.

909
00:40:29,140 --> 00:40:31,501
It's it's that moment where a judge looks even,

910
00:40:31,501 --> 00:40:34,220
says model. You want to dress the jury.

911
00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:37,204
An I really feel alive and it's the most alive

912
00:40:37,269 --> 00:40:39,150
I ever feel in anything I do.

913
00:40:39,150 --> 00:40:42,056
Even you know when I played sports I 'cause I

914
00:40:42,121 --> 00:40:44,898
knew I was never great and I think you know

915
00:40:44,963 --> 00:40:46,448
if you know you're not.

916
00:40:46,448 --> 00:40:50,466
You haven't even say great but you've never been perfect

917
00:40:50,537 --> 00:40:51,470
at something.

918
00:40:51,470 --> 00:40:53,690
And there are times when I.

919
00:40:53,690 --> 00:40:56,860
Get done closing where I say I'll say to myself.

920
00:40:56,860 --> 00:40:59,381
Man, that's as good as I've got,

921
00:40:59,381 --> 00:41:04,387
um. But I'm never uncomfortable there and I'm uncomfortable in

922
00:41:04,468 --> 00:41:06,729
a lot of situations in life.

923
00:41:06,729 --> 00:41:11,358
Um, daily life parties. But that's the one place where

924
00:41:11,444 --> 00:41:12,730
I feel at home.

925
00:41:12,730 --> 00:41:17,534
So pranking you. Do the math for me.

926
00:41:17,534 --> 00:41:21,773
Um, that exhilaration, exhilaration, thrill,

927
00:41:21,773 --> 00:41:26,483
place of true home that you describe as you said,

928
00:41:26,483 --> 00:41:33,169
comes with enormous expense. Looking back is every one of

929
00:41:33,287 --> 00:41:35,750
those Closings worth?

930
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:40,189
All of the insides of yourself that you've left here,

931
00:41:40,189 --> 00:41:43,961
there and everywhere to do the math for me on

932
00:41:44,045 --> 00:41:44,464
that.

933
00:41:44,464 --> 00:41:46,437
Yeah no, of course not.

934
00:41:46,437 --> 00:41:48,580
You know, in my Case No.

935
00:41:48,580 --> 00:41:51,498
You know, I I look at some of the great

936
00:41:51,572 --> 00:41:54,490
lawyers that you know that we all know.

937
00:41:54,490 --> 00:41:58,630
And um, I always used to think particularly once.

938
00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:59,751
I hate to say this,

939
00:41:59,751 --> 00:42:01,854
but once I got married I I when I was

940
00:42:01,911 --> 00:42:03,957
a young assistant District Attorney.

941
00:42:03,957 --> 00:42:06,539
It was 24/7. And then you get married and have

942
00:42:06,595 --> 00:42:09,345
kids and then once you have kids there are things

943
00:42:09,401 --> 00:42:12,600
that are bigger than you and bigger than your profession.

944
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,235
And so no, I particularly on,

945
00:42:15,235 --> 00:42:18,396
Uh, I missed. I missed some things,

946
00:42:18,396 --> 00:42:23,253
um, at home. And with my kids that I'll never

947
00:42:23,361 --> 00:42:26,599
get back and I live with that,

948
00:42:26,599 --> 00:42:31,370
UM, and that's that's not something that that.

949
00:42:31,370 --> 00:42:33,690
Either that I'm proud of.

950
00:42:33,690 --> 00:42:36,652
Well, I don't know that I had a great control

951
00:42:36,718 --> 00:42:37,047
over.

952
00:42:37,047 --> 00:42:38,790
Maybe I maybe I, I didn't.

953
00:42:38,790 --> 00:42:40,533
I just refuse to admit it,

954
00:42:40,533 --> 00:42:43,014
but I think I saw you know you want to

955
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:45,625
practice law and you want to do it at a

956
00:42:45,690 --> 00:42:46,408
high level.

957
00:42:46,408 --> 00:42:50,490
Things are gonna things are going to slide elsewhere.

958
00:42:50,490 --> 00:42:53,504
And I, I think that my regret isn't so much

959
00:42:53,574 --> 00:42:56,939
in in terms of the physical toll that it's taken

960
00:42:57,009 --> 00:42:57,430
on me.

961
00:42:57,430 --> 00:43:00,307
It's probably the things I missed,

962
00:43:00,307 --> 00:43:03,740
um, and I've gotten better at it.

963
00:43:03,740 --> 00:43:06,000
Uh, but you know Bob,

964
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,569
Uh, and and we all know,

965
00:43:08,569 --> 00:43:12,467
uhm? You don't get certain things back in your life,

966
00:43:12,467 --> 00:43:15,263
so my advice to those lawyers out there that are

967
00:43:15,321 --> 00:43:17,884
going to be involved in this at a high level

968
00:43:17,943 --> 00:43:21,088
and they're going to have families trying to find that

969
00:43:21,088 --> 00:43:24,000
balance. I found it, but I found it late.

970
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:25,722
Um, I've been blessed with,

971
00:43:25,722 --> 00:43:28,120
uh, you know, great wife and and kids,

972
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,190
and they've always been patient with my.

973
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:36,320
Um, with my.

974
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,303
At times when I'm may be here physically but not

975
00:43:39,365 --> 00:43:40,235
here mentally,

976
00:43:40,235 --> 00:43:43,416
and may be times when I'm not even here physically,

977
00:43:43,416 --> 00:43:44,762
and so, um, but yeah,

978
00:43:44,762 --> 00:43:48,073
bye bye. do I have regret about about all all

979
00:43:48,147 --> 00:43:51,826
the pieces that I've left all over the court rooms

980
00:43:51,899 --> 00:43:52,120
in?

981
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,370
In Pennsylvania and elsewhere, no.

982
00:43:56,370 --> 00:44:02,490
As it should be. As it should be.

983
00:44:02,490 --> 00:44:08,465
So Brian, We want to want to move to another

984
00:44:08,601 --> 00:44:15,527
question about your career and the timely question.

985
00:44:15,527 --> 00:44:19,402
You as a DA. In Philadelphia,

986
00:44:19,402 --> 00:44:24,320
I believe tried a pretty high profile mob case,

987
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,303
did you not? I did I assisted a great learning

988
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:31,074
Joe Grant in prosecuting again.

989
00:44:31,074 --> 00:44:34,062
Very big mob case. I did and who is your

990
00:44:34,137 --> 00:44:35,780
opponent in that case?

991
00:44:35,780 --> 00:44:37,766
But we had a bunch of 'em,

992
00:44:37,766 --> 00:44:40,193
you know it was. It was about 8,

993
00:44:40,193 --> 00:44:43,597
Seven or eight defendants. It was it was a MoD

994
00:44:43,671 --> 00:44:47,814
case involving my Bush named Nicodemus Scarfo and it was

995
00:44:47,888 --> 00:44:52,180
murder cases contract killing and I tried the case against

996
00:44:52,180 --> 00:44:55,270
against a lot of great lawyers.

997
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:57,989
And, uh, one of them was a guy that we

998
00:44:58,061 --> 00:44:59,277
lossed yesterday,

999
00:44:59,277 --> 00:45:02,990
a guy named Joe Santaguida who was just a.

1000
00:45:02,990 --> 00:45:04,448
One of the best ever.

1001
00:45:04,448 --> 00:45:07,133
Uhm, and I I tell the story all the time

1002
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,684
about what happened in in that trial.

1003
00:45:09,684 --> 00:45:12,496
Uhm, I knew Joe from when I grew up and

1004
00:45:12,568 --> 00:45:15,956
I actually went to high school with the sun and

1005
00:45:16,029 --> 00:45:17,110
so we had that.

1006
00:45:17,110 --> 00:45:19,059
And he was a fierce trial lawyer,

1007
00:45:19,059 --> 00:45:22,483
and the fierce competitor. And we weren't supposed to win

1008
00:45:22,543 --> 00:45:22,964
a case.

1009
00:45:22,964 --> 00:45:24,601
Quite frankly, it was one of those,

1010
00:45:24,601 --> 00:45:27,607
you know, typical mob prosecutions where you were kind of

1011
00:45:27,660 --> 00:45:28,240
relying on.

1012
00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:31,766
Um informant testimony for the most part didn't have any

1013
00:45:31,829 --> 00:45:34,537
tapes really to speak of that were helpful.

1014
00:45:34,537 --> 00:45:36,345
Brian, I don't want we stop.

1015
00:45:36,345 --> 00:45:38,215
You want sex to the audience,

1016
00:45:38,215 --> 00:45:41,332
understands a mob. Try like this in Philadelphia,

1017
00:45:41,332 --> 00:45:44,411
particularly back in this was the mid to late 80s

1018
00:45:44,474 --> 00:45:47,302
was a soap opera that played out on the front

1019
00:45:47,365 --> 00:45:49,125
page of the paper every day,

1020
00:45:49,125 --> 00:45:50,933
right? I mean it was it was.

1021
00:45:50,933 --> 00:45:54,113
It was actually my first really high profile case.

1022
00:45:54,113 --> 00:45:57,348
It was like nothing you've ever seen because at the

1023
00:45:57,412 --> 00:45:57,729
time,

1024
00:45:57,729 --> 00:45:59,878
you know. There were significant,

1025
00:45:59,878 --> 00:46:02,393
uh, what will call mob wars going on?

1026
00:46:02,393 --> 00:46:04,312
And it was in the newspaper.

1027
00:46:04,312 --> 00:46:06,761
Every day was on the news every day.

1028
00:46:06,761 --> 00:46:09,541
Uhm, and this this case was particularly,

1029
00:46:09,541 --> 00:46:12,055
uhm, you know, followed by the media.

1030
00:46:12,055 --> 00:46:15,497
Sure, right? This was during a period of time when,

1031
00:46:15,497 --> 00:46:17,416
from like 1980 until really,

1032
00:46:17,416 --> 00:46:18,740
the end of the 80s,

1033
00:46:18,740 --> 00:46:22,813
there was almost an annual high profile mob related execution

1034
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,152
of an alleged boss playing out in the newspapers.

1035
00:46:26,152 --> 00:46:29,064
At the time when one of the alleged also put

1036
00:46:29,130 --> 00:46:31,380
a front door in his house blew up.

1037
00:46:31,380 --> 00:46:34,125
Right, that that was during this period of time it

1038
00:46:34,179 --> 00:46:34,399
was.

1039
00:46:34,399 --> 00:46:35,908
It was that period of time,

1040
00:46:35,908 --> 00:46:37,094
yeah, so so so right?

1041
00:46:37,094 --> 00:46:38,820
So hopefully for iron advocate,

1042
00:46:38,820 --> 00:46:41,461
there's people across America listening to this,

1043
00:46:41,461 --> 00:46:43,779
so I wanted to give a little bit of color.

1044
00:46:43,779 --> 00:46:45,289
I didn't mean to interrupt,

1045
00:46:45,289 --> 00:46:46,636
you know, I should have.

1046
00:46:46,636 --> 00:46:49,008
Yeah it was that was that was Jeff's fault.

1047
00:46:49,008 --> 00:46:50,680
Brian. Not not not your fault,

1048
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,782
so it was the height of it and it was.

1049
00:46:52,782 --> 00:46:56,141
Yeah, it was. You really couldn't pick up the newspapers

1050
00:46:56,201 --> 00:46:58,120
without seeing some carnage and.

1051
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,035
So this was the second of two mob prosecutions of

1052
00:47:02,114 --> 00:47:06,029
the A's office and the first one had been lossed,

1053
00:47:06,029 --> 00:47:07,611
and it was. It was,

1054
00:47:07,611 --> 00:47:10,537
you know, it was a significant loss.

1055
00:47:10,537 --> 00:47:14,080
And then they took. This case and we started to

1056
00:47:14,155 --> 00:47:16,115
try this case and I got a.

1057
00:47:16,115 --> 00:47:19,443
I was very young. I just got the homicide and

1058
00:47:19,517 --> 00:47:21,070
I got assigned to do.

1059
00:47:21,070 --> 00:47:23,675
Uh, what we call second chair in the case where

1060
00:47:23,730 --> 00:47:25,116
the guy named Joey Grant,

1061
00:47:25,116 --> 00:47:27,139
who is, you know, is a great lawyer,

1062
00:47:27,139 --> 00:47:30,183
great prosecutor and insisted that I be something a lot

1063
00:47:30,238 --> 00:47:31,622
more than a second chair.

1064
00:47:31,622 --> 00:47:34,331
So I was doing a lot of the lifting during

1065
00:47:34,395 --> 00:47:35,040
the trial.

1066
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,369
An, uh? Show the store that I you know that

1067
00:47:38,446 --> 00:47:40,459
I always tell about it is,

1068
00:47:40,459 --> 00:47:43,947
uhm, you know the jury comes back or expecting an

1069
00:47:44,018 --> 00:47:44,730
acquittal.

1070
00:47:44,730 --> 00:47:46,272
And they come back, um,

1071
00:47:46,272 --> 00:47:48,777
guilty, everybody first degree murder.

1072
00:47:48,777 --> 00:47:50,703
And it's pandemonium. I mean,

1073
00:47:50,703 --> 00:47:54,905
people are. Drawing themselves around the courtroom into chaos and

1074
00:47:54,968 --> 00:47:55,414
others.

1075
00:47:55,414 --> 00:47:58,190
Just typical. What you'd expect back then.

1076
00:47:58,190 --> 00:48:01,722
And. You know, I. Your I'm a young kid I'm

1077
00:48:01,806 --> 00:48:05,589
I'm 2627 and I don't know what's going on and

1078
00:48:05,674 --> 00:48:10,046
you know these these you know this was a significant

1079
00:48:10,046 --> 00:48:13,532
significant case at the time and you know your hearts

1080
00:48:13,597 --> 00:48:14,518
in your mouth.

1081
00:48:14,518 --> 00:48:17,305
And the FBI is coming up in their circles,

1082
00:48:17,305 --> 00:48:20,351
you know, try and get us out of the courtroom,

1083
00:48:20,351 --> 00:48:24,098
Ann. I remember like it was yesterday.

1084
00:48:24,098 --> 00:48:28,802
Joe Santaguida Kinda the path just got cleared and everybody

1085
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,251
moved and he walked right in and he put out

1086
00:48:32,330 --> 00:48:35,779
his arms and roomy close and he kissed me on

1087
00:48:35,779 --> 00:48:41,880
my cheek. He said that from the boss.

1088
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:49,390
Oh my God. I will.

1089
00:48:49,390 --> 00:48:52,997
And of course, uhm, you know it's funny because we

1090
00:48:53,069 --> 00:48:56,892
lost him yesterday and he represented a time of great

1091
00:48:56,964 --> 00:49:01,581
travelers that had they were characters and they had personality

1092
00:49:01,581 --> 00:49:05,075
and they were larger than life and they tried to

1093
00:49:05,148 --> 00:49:06,385
hell outta cases.

1094
00:49:06,385 --> 00:49:09,499
As you know. And they did it with flair and

1095
00:49:09,572 --> 00:49:12,976
they did it with theatrics and they did it with

1096
00:49:13,049 --> 00:49:13,628
bravado.

1097
00:49:13,628 --> 00:49:16,353
And they're they're kind of gone now.

1098
00:49:16,353 --> 00:49:19,580
You know, they're kind of going one by one of

1099
00:49:19,651 --> 00:49:20,010
them.

1100
00:49:20,010 --> 00:49:22,337
And he was a great one and a good friend.

1101
00:49:22,337 --> 00:49:24,442
Um, and I learned a lesson in it too,

1102
00:49:24,442 --> 00:49:26,215
because I was always, you know,

1103
00:49:26,215 --> 00:49:29,041
you're always concerned. Tickling your prosecutor.

1104
00:49:29,041 --> 00:49:31,638
Beeman is a defense attorney at the end of the

1105
00:49:31,695 --> 00:49:31,977
case.

1106
00:49:31,977 --> 00:49:36,506
Where do you stand? Will you stand with your colleagues?

1107
00:49:36,506 --> 00:49:39,572
What do you stand with your adversaries?

1108
00:49:39,572 --> 00:49:43,235
And that was his way of basically letting me know

1109
00:49:43,310 --> 00:49:44,880
everything's alright.

1110
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,234
Is a class act class act and a character an

1111
00:49:48,312 --> 00:49:52,524
my heart broke yesterday for him for the listeners out

1112
00:49:52,602 --> 00:49:53,070
there.

1113
00:49:53,070 --> 00:49:56,006
I've always called him Mr Santaguida.

1114
00:49:56,006 --> 00:49:58,555
I don't never ever call him Joe.

1115
00:49:58,555 --> 00:50:02,109
His picture hangs in the mob museum out in Las

1116
00:50:02,186 --> 00:50:02,650
Vegas.

1117
00:50:02,650 --> 00:50:05,453
You know that, but I do know that as well,

1118
00:50:05,453 --> 00:50:07,473
it should as well should Ryan.

1119
00:50:07,473 --> 00:50:09,885
When we were young public defenders,

1120
00:50:09,885 --> 00:50:13,242
he would be at Colaneri hearings and a couple times

1121
00:50:13,308 --> 00:50:16,468
we as the defenders in the room went before him.

1122
00:50:16,468 --> 00:50:20,154
Unfortunately, so he was critiquing us from the back and

1123
00:50:20,219 --> 00:50:23,181
I remember I was a brand new public defender.

1124
00:50:23,181 --> 00:50:25,528
The guy was scary looking to Maine,

1125
00:50:25,528 --> 00:50:27,548
you know. I grew up in Oregon.

1126
00:50:27,548 --> 00:50:30,742
I wasn't. I didn't grow up around Jose Anguidae.

1127
00:50:30,742 --> 00:50:33,740
This guy was straight out of central casting.

1128
00:50:33,740 --> 00:50:37,799
You couldn't find somebody. In Hollywood to portray him as

1129
00:50:37,869 --> 00:50:39,899
well as he portrayed himself,

1130
00:50:39,899 --> 00:50:44,153
it wouldn't be possible. It wouldn't wouldn't be possible,

1131
00:50:44,153 --> 00:50:47,975
so I remember the public defender asking a question.

1132
00:50:47,975 --> 00:50:50,282
It was probably something like.

1133
00:50:50,282 --> 00:50:54,248
Are you sure my clients guilty or something is stupid?

1134
00:50:54,248 --> 00:50:57,580
Is that an and? I just went.

1135
00:50:57,580 --> 00:51:04,730
Jesus commenting on everything I said and just was.

1136
00:51:04,730 --> 00:51:08,430
He would. He was such a figure.

1137
00:51:08,430 --> 00:51:10,857
If you're doing a big problem across,

1138
00:51:10,857 --> 00:51:12,326
I mean believe I yeah,

1139
00:51:12,326 --> 00:51:13,667
yeah no, no it's uh,

1140
00:51:13,667 --> 00:51:17,074
it's Brian. Listen, we're here now you gotta tell the

1141
00:51:17,138 --> 00:51:20,031
the story about when he when he was trying to

1142
00:51:20,096 --> 00:51:23,310
case group of lawyers down in federal court in and

1143
00:51:23,310 --> 00:51:26,927
felt that some of the lawyers weren't performing well on

1144
00:51:26,992 --> 00:51:28,994
their cross and wanted to stop.

1145
00:51:28,994 --> 00:51:30,790
Yeah, my partner. Well, we were,

1146
00:51:30,790 --> 00:51:33,564
you know, we were commiserating yesterday when we learn to

1147
00:51:33,612 --> 00:51:35,190
Joe's passing and he was telling,

1148
00:51:35,190 --> 00:51:37,120
you know, the legendary story.

1149
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,561
Is a federal prosecution going on anjos,

1150
00:51:39,561 --> 00:51:42,597
one of the five or six lawyers defending the case,

1151
00:51:42,597 --> 00:51:45,859
and a young lawyers up their cross examining and my

1152
00:51:45,923 --> 00:51:49,760
partner sitting next to Joe and the cross examination wasn't

1153
00:51:49,824 --> 00:51:50,400
riveting.

1154
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,810
So Joe starts to pound.

1155
00:51:53,810 --> 00:51:56,148
The table, like the end of a,

1156
00:51:56,148 --> 00:51:59,421
you know at the end of around in a fight.

1157
00:51:59,421 --> 00:52:02,995
Yup, 10 seconds and my partner said I look to

1158
00:52:03,074 --> 00:52:03,551
Fargo.

1159
00:52:03,551 --> 00:52:06,357
What's going on? It's like a fight.

1160
00:52:06,357 --> 00:52:09,720
It's time this it's time to end the round.

1161
00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:14,477
And the lawyer, of course.

1162
00:52:14,477 --> 00:52:18,230
Shut down on Q.

1163
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:21,909
Yeah, we've all had those moments where you should get

1164
00:52:21,977 --> 00:52:22,250
the.

1165
00:52:22,250 --> 00:52:25,582
You should get the banging of the table when it's

1166
00:52:25,650 --> 00:52:26,806
time to sit down.

1167
00:52:26,806 --> 00:52:28,615
We sure have so. So Brian,

1168
00:52:28,615 --> 00:52:31,992
we gotta pivot. That's not enough that in the last

1169
00:52:32,060 --> 00:52:35,437
like few years that you you have had the privilege

1170
00:52:35,505 --> 00:52:36,991
to represent Mr Cosby.

1171
00:52:36,991 --> 00:52:41,413
You've had also the privilege of representing Meek Mill recently.

1172
00:52:41,413 --> 00:52:43,222
Is that right? Yeah, yeah,

1173
00:52:43,222 --> 00:52:45,299
yeah. So most everybody knows,

1174
00:52:45,299 --> 00:52:49,520
but obviously makes an internationally known recording artists.

1175
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:54,685
Hum, who became really the face of Criminal Justice reform?

1176
00:52:54,685 --> 00:52:58,042
Um, literally, literally, uh, can you,

1177
00:52:58,042 --> 00:53:01,732
UM? Tell us what what that is like to become

1178
00:53:01,816 --> 00:53:05,673
the lawyer for a somebody who is in the middle

1179
00:53:05,757 --> 00:53:11,124
of an international dialogue on Criminal Justice Reform and race

1180
00:53:11,124 --> 00:53:16,599
in the law, yeah. Truly remarkable an you start with

1181
00:53:16,704 --> 00:53:17,125
him.

1182
00:53:17,125 --> 00:53:20,920
Um, you know, this was a case that was,

1183
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,145
you know, violation of probation.

1184
00:53:24,145 --> 00:53:27,940
That led to rather unspeakable sentence.

1185
00:53:27,940 --> 00:53:33,097
And. To understand how you go from there to what

1186
00:53:33,204 --> 00:53:35,568
you've just described,

1187
00:53:35,568 --> 00:53:38,500
which is the face of a movement.

1188
00:53:38,500 --> 00:53:43,121
You have to understand the dynamics of what was put

1189
00:53:43,212 --> 00:53:44,390
together and.

1190
00:53:44,390 --> 00:53:48,132
I was one lawyer on that case and and that's

1191
00:53:48,217 --> 00:53:49,663
really the story.

1192
00:53:49,663 --> 00:53:53,480
The story of that case is really how a team

1193
00:53:53,568 --> 00:53:57,651
can be put together to to really write a wrong

1194
00:53:57,740 --> 00:53:58,450
and two.

1195
00:53:58,450 --> 00:54:04,311
To change the narrative, the team which consisted of of

1196
00:54:04,418 --> 00:54:08,041
you know Jordan 7 Pico Burger Ann,

1197
00:54:08,041 --> 00:54:14,575
Joateca Pena, and Kim Waterson appellate lawyers on one side,

1198
00:54:14,575 --> 00:54:21,048
trial lawyers on another, all being really organized and run

1199
00:54:21,156 --> 00:54:21,480
by.

1200
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:25,328
Uh, a nonlawyer in Desiree Perez from Roc Nation who

1201
00:54:25,402 --> 00:54:30,063
really organized that entire team and then spearheaded with the

1202
00:54:30,137 --> 00:54:34,133
passion and the power and brilliance of Mike Rubin who

1203
00:54:34,133 --> 00:54:36,119
is an owner of the Sixers.

1204
00:54:36,119 --> 00:54:40,170
And I've never been involved in A.

1205
00:54:40,170 --> 00:54:44,245
Well, I'll call team a scenario that ever worked more

1206
00:54:44,322 --> 00:54:46,398
effectively than that team,

1207
00:54:46,398 --> 00:54:50,068
and you know again, meek went from the bowels of

1208
00:54:50,144 --> 00:54:53,508
the prison where he was going to serve a two

1209
00:54:53,584 --> 00:54:58,171
to four year sentence to being ultimately released from that

1210
00:54:58,171 --> 00:55:03,014
sentence from the charges being downgraded to a misdemeanor and

1211
00:55:03,091 --> 00:55:04,551
no further penalty.

1212
00:55:04,551 --> 00:55:08,501
And then walking out of prison and keeping a promise

1213
00:55:08,577 --> 00:55:10,400
that he would go become.

1214
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,507
Um, the face of a movement that he would make

1215
00:55:12,553 --> 00:55:15,175
sure that what happened to him would never happen again.

1216
00:55:15,175 --> 00:55:17,421
And not only did you utter the words 'cause it's

1217
00:55:17,468 --> 00:55:19,714
always easier to utter the words and to talk the

1218
00:55:19,761 --> 00:55:19,995
talk,

1219
00:55:19,995 --> 00:55:22,274
but he went and walked the walk and with the

1220
00:55:22,326 --> 00:55:24,760
help of some of the people that I've mentioned.

1221
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,588
And all you know Jay-Z and and a lot of

1222
00:55:27,661 --> 00:55:29,039
great great people.

1223
00:55:29,039 --> 00:55:32,988
And reformist. Um, he hasn't really spent a day without

1224
00:55:33,060 --> 00:55:36,650
trying to to make things right for other people in

1225
00:55:36,722 --> 00:55:39,666
transforming the criminal justice system.

1226
00:55:39,666 --> 00:55:42,680
And it was probably the greatest.

1227
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,789
Experience um. By by the time it ended that I've

1228
00:55:46,875 --> 00:55:47,645
ever had,

1229
00:55:47,645 --> 00:55:50,225
not that there weren't good days and bad days,

1230
00:55:50,225 --> 00:55:52,201
they were. There were a ton of bed.

1231
00:55:52,201 --> 00:55:54,286
There is more bad days and good days,

1232
00:55:54,286 --> 00:55:57,190
but I learned an enormous amount about what I didn't

1233
00:55:57,246 --> 00:55:57,525
know.

1234
00:55:57,525 --> 00:56:00,390
You know, I know a lot about trying cases.

1235
00:56:00,390 --> 00:56:04,406
And the beauty of that experience had less to do

1236
00:56:04,490 --> 00:56:05,243
with the,

1237
00:56:05,243 --> 00:56:08,780
uh, you know, uh, a trial or a jury trial,

1238
00:56:08,780 --> 00:56:12,975
but about how to get through an appellate process?

1239
00:56:12,975 --> 00:56:16,347
How to transform message with the media,

1240
00:56:16,347 --> 00:56:21,587
how to take someone from being just another convicted defendant

1241
00:56:21,670 --> 00:56:23,832
to the face of a movement.

1242
00:56:23,832 --> 00:56:27,204
And it, you know, I wish I could say that

1243
00:56:27,286 --> 00:56:30,576
I played a large part in that as to that

1244
00:56:30,659 --> 00:56:31,070
part.

1245
00:56:31,070 --> 00:56:35,417
Um, remarkably brilliant people again who are are not even

1246
00:56:35,492 --> 00:56:39,239
lawyers were able to really make a movement out of

1247
00:56:39,314 --> 00:56:40,063
a tragedy,

1248
00:56:40,063 --> 00:56:42,293
and it was remarkable, Brian,

1249
00:56:42,293 --> 00:56:45,340
what would you be able to say about you,

1250
00:56:45,340 --> 00:56:49,056
mentioned microbe and and Desiree and Roc Nation,

1251
00:56:49,056 --> 00:56:52,518
folks, what would you do if you were trying to

1252
00:56:52,593 --> 00:56:55,002
impart those lessons to lawyers?

1253
00:56:55,002 --> 00:56:59,152
Listening to this who are really trying to maximize the

1254
00:56:59,227 --> 00:56:59,982
potential?

1255
00:56:59,982 --> 00:57:03,493
What was it about? The mindset that they had there

1256
00:57:03,563 --> 00:57:05,600
was so unusual in so winning.

1257
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:09,057
Well I mean, start with the fact that you talk

1258
00:57:09,132 --> 00:57:13,340
about refusing to lose their losing was never an option.

1259
00:57:13,340 --> 00:57:16,002
Um, not working 24 hours a day was never an

1260
00:57:16,064 --> 00:57:16,497
option.

1261
00:57:16,497 --> 00:57:18,682
I mean, you know, as I said before,

1262
00:57:18,682 --> 00:57:20,989
we think we're traveling pretty fast.

1263
00:57:20,989 --> 00:57:23,782
And Philadelphia, you know, 70 miles an hour.

1264
00:57:23,782 --> 00:57:27,111
You know they're cruising at 100 and their brains work

1265
00:57:27,173 --> 00:57:27,728
that way.

1266
00:57:27,728 --> 00:57:31,491
You know they're operating at the highest levels of business,

1267
00:57:31,491 --> 00:57:34,991
and they're problem solvers, and they've never run into a

1268
00:57:35,052 --> 00:57:36,894
problem that they can't solve.

1269
00:57:36,894 --> 00:57:40,415
And as criminal lawyers, we sometimes run into problems we

1270
00:57:40,476 --> 00:57:43,390
can solve and we just stop trying to solve them.

1271
00:57:43,390 --> 00:57:46,149
And you get lazy and you give up.

1272
00:57:46,149 --> 00:57:50,261
and I, I think more than anything they inspired me

1273
00:57:50,343 --> 00:57:52,399
that you can work harder.

1274
00:57:52,399 --> 00:57:56,202
You can work better. You cannot take no for an

1275
00:57:56,284 --> 00:57:56,863
answer.

1276
00:57:56,863 --> 00:57:59,379
You can think outside the box.

1277
00:57:59,379 --> 00:58:03,947
You know the things that they thought of in terms

1278
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:04,320
of.

1279
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,935
You know there there managing in their businesses.

1280
00:58:06,935 --> 00:58:08,987
You know 15 different things at a time.

1281
00:58:08,987 --> 00:58:11,725
We're not going into a courtroom and sit in all

1282
00:58:11,783 --> 00:58:13,240
day and figure out a way.

1283
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:18,840
So what did the brilliance of being able to take?

1284
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,700
Bye bye. You know one strand at a time.

1285
00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:25,967
Something that's beneficial. Let's get a bus and let's send

1286
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:27,920
buses around Philadelphia.

1287
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:29,921
That's a freak me freemake.

1288
00:58:29,921 --> 00:58:31,923
Let's put it on billboards.

1289
00:58:31,923 --> 00:58:34,640
Let's start a dialogue here with some.

1290
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:40,152
New stations, let's let's create and recreate a narrative on

1291
00:58:40,244 --> 00:58:41,530
the media end.

1292
00:58:41,530 --> 00:58:43,662
And then in the appellate end,

1293
00:58:43,662 --> 00:58:47,239
having some brilliant appellate geniuses like just,

1294
00:58:47,239 --> 00:58:49,234
you know, kind of mentioned,

1295
00:58:49,234 --> 00:58:52,192
along with some really good trial lawyers.

1296
00:58:52,192 --> 00:58:54,874
I mean, you know, Jordan Joateca Pena,

1297
00:58:54,874 --> 00:58:56,938
and I'd like to think myself,

1298
00:58:56,938 --> 00:59:00,652
you know, all that wisdom coming together on the legal

1299
00:59:00,721 --> 00:59:03,060
end trying to solve a big problem.

1300
00:59:03,060 --> 00:59:05,612
Listen, let's let's not kid ourselves.

1301
00:59:05,612 --> 00:59:08,034
You know at the end of the day we got

1302
00:59:08,099 --> 00:59:10,848
we got lucky in that you know we were able

1303
00:59:10,913 --> 00:59:14,120
to the legal end of it really got facilitated by.

1304
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:18,132
The good graces of the District Attorney of Philadelphia,

1305
00:59:18,132 --> 00:59:21,564
who who never even from the beginning when it was

1306
00:59:21,635 --> 00:59:23,666
before Mr Krasner former DEA.

1307
00:59:23,666 --> 00:59:27,270
Philadelphia and now and then Larry Krasner.

1308
00:59:27,270 --> 00:59:30,405
You know, never ever, ever wilted from their position that

1309
00:59:30,459 --> 00:59:31,324
they first took.

1310
00:59:31,324 --> 00:59:33,352
Which was this guy should be in jail.

1311
00:59:33,352 --> 00:59:35,272
This guy shouldn't be on probation.

1312
00:59:35,272 --> 00:59:37,645
Let him go out and earn a living and do

1313
00:59:37,706 --> 00:59:39,410
what's right for his family.

1314
00:59:39,410 --> 00:59:43,399
Uhm, but on the other end the higher end of

1315
00:59:43,492 --> 00:59:46,460
watching this team put together.

1316
00:59:46,460 --> 00:59:49,490
Once you think you've got it figured out.

1317
00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:52,227
Take a ride up to New York and go into

1318
00:59:52,299 --> 00:59:55,828
a conference room with Roc Nation or go meet Mike

1319
00:59:55,900 --> 00:59:56,404
Rubino.

1320
00:59:56,404 --> 01:00:00,208
People like them and really figure out that you don't

1321
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,510
have any of it figured out an and it inspires

1322
01:00:03,582 --> 01:00:06,812
you to think differently to not be satisfied.

1323
01:00:06,812 --> 01:00:08,665
We all get into that rut.

1324
01:00:08,665 --> 01:00:10,376
I've been guilty of it.

1325
01:00:10,376 --> 01:00:11,801
I was guilty of it.

1326
01:00:11,801 --> 01:00:14,653
In that case, getting ready to give up.

1327
01:00:14,653 --> 01:00:18,360
And you know, when you start dealing with people who

1328
01:00:18,431 --> 01:00:19,500
refuse to lose.

1329
01:00:19,500 --> 01:00:24,750
Then you do too. Bright as part of that.

1330
01:00:24,750 --> 01:00:28,977
Strategy the refuse to lose a you guys took a

1331
01:00:29,071 --> 01:00:33,673
really public and hardline stance with the judge.

1332
01:00:33,673 --> 01:00:38,134
The trial judge, who had sentenced him to this,

1333
01:00:38,134 --> 01:00:43,060
you know exceedingly. Now it appears to be excessive.

1334
01:00:43,060 --> 01:00:46,630
That's on this probation violation.

1335
01:00:46,630 --> 01:00:49,492
That's in a courthouse. That's your homecourt.

1336
01:00:49,492 --> 01:00:51,197
An uhm, can you talk about,

1337
01:00:51,197 --> 01:00:54,166
uh, you know how you handle that and what impact

1338
01:00:54,228 --> 01:00:55,094
it had on you?

1339
01:00:55,094 --> 01:00:57,949
Whether or not you ever took a deep breath and

1340
01:00:58,011 --> 01:00:58,321
said,

1341
01:00:58,321 --> 01:01:00,330
is this the right course action?

1342
01:01:00,330 --> 01:01:02,096
Or this is where I gotta go?

1343
01:01:02,096 --> 01:01:04,775
'cause this is what's right for the client?

1344
01:01:04,775 --> 01:01:08,193
Of course it was interesting is one thing that the

1345
01:01:08,262 --> 01:01:11,270
team was always mindful of was that dynamic.

1346
01:01:11,270 --> 01:01:14,388
And so Brian, we will have people listen from all

1347
01:01:14,452 --> 01:01:15,534
over the country.

1348
01:01:15,534 --> 01:01:18,001
Can you take us to half a step back and

1349
01:01:18,064 --> 01:01:21,163
tell folks who may not know what he got sentenced

1350
01:01:21,227 --> 01:01:22,808
to four years or an what?

1351
01:01:22,808 --> 01:01:26,169
Some of the background was with judge Brinkley who he

1352
01:01:26,232 --> 01:01:28,452
had had a long sordid history with.

1353
01:01:28,452 --> 01:01:31,337
Yeah, I mean he'd been on probation for ever.

1354
01:01:31,337 --> 01:01:34,137
Really, most of his adult life for a case he

1355
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:35,664
really caught as a kid,

1356
01:01:35,664 --> 01:01:38,883
you received a sentence and then there was a series

1357
01:01:38,946 --> 01:01:42,669
of what will call technical violations of that probation is

1358
01:01:42,732 --> 01:01:45,509
never rested and convicted of a crime again,

1359
01:01:45,509 --> 01:01:48,685
but. He was not meeting up to the requirements of

1360
01:01:48,749 --> 01:01:49,916
the judge who was,

1361
01:01:49,916 --> 01:01:53,533
you know, his sentencing judge and he was violated many

1362
01:01:53,599 --> 01:01:54,980
times over the years.

1363
01:01:54,980 --> 01:01:56,928
Um, for one thing or another,

1364
01:01:56,928 --> 01:02:01,344
but mostly technical, violations of probation and then ended up

1365
01:02:01,414 --> 01:02:04,498
being on probation for most of his life at a

1366
01:02:04,568 --> 01:02:05,760
time when he was.

1367
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:07,703
Employing people, uhm, you know,

1368
01:02:07,703 --> 01:02:10,865
had become a great, was exploding on the national and

1369
01:02:10,925 --> 01:02:12,118
international scene,

1370
01:02:12,118 --> 01:02:15,393
and he kept finding himself being brought back to court

1371
01:02:15,453 --> 01:02:17,358
because of one thing or another,

1372
01:02:17,358 --> 01:02:19,006
and some of them, You know,

1373
01:02:19,006 --> 01:02:21,930
as Meek would say were self inflicted and some of

1374
01:02:21,990 --> 01:02:23,422
them were just nonsense.

1375
01:02:23,422 --> 01:02:24,540
And when I got it,

1376
01:02:24,540 --> 01:02:27,804
he had been in a couple of encounters where really

1377
01:02:27,869 --> 01:02:30,350
minor kind of interactions with folks.

1378
01:02:30,350 --> 01:02:33,580
Um? And the positive drug screen?

1379
01:02:33,580 --> 01:02:36,348
Uh, I think one of them was riding wheelies on

1380
01:02:36,408 --> 01:02:37,732
his on his motorcycle.

1381
01:02:37,732 --> 01:02:39,511
Another wasn't in an airport,

1382
01:02:39,511 --> 01:02:42,986
but all of which were technical violations of probation in

1383
01:02:43,046 --> 01:02:45,502
the probation Department to their credit,

1384
01:02:45,502 --> 01:02:49,240
in the district attorneys office was telling the judge listen,

1385
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:50,960
he's doing great. These are.

1386
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:54,044
These are not the kind of infraction when violated,

1387
01:02:54,044 --> 01:02:55,468
for he's going to work.

1388
01:02:55,468 --> 01:02:59,205
He's employing people. He's doing magnificently in his career.

1389
01:02:59,205 --> 01:03:01,975
Let's not violate him. And in first time that I've

1390
01:03:02,031 --> 01:03:04,081
ever had that experience in 25 years,

1391
01:03:04,081 --> 01:03:06,300
the judge completely ignored everything.

1392
01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:08,789
The probation office said ignored everything.

1393
01:03:08,789 --> 01:03:11,927
The District Attorney said. Obviously ignored everything.

1394
01:03:11,927 --> 01:03:13,658
I said an unimaginable E Gamer.

1395
01:03:13,658 --> 01:03:15,823
Two to four year state prison sentence.

1396
01:03:15,823 --> 01:03:18,960
And for those that don't know that state prison.

1397
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:26,200
Um? For uh, at best technical violation of probation.

1398
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:28,003
And that's what drove it,

1399
01:03:28,003 --> 01:03:29,945
and that's what started it.

1400
01:03:29,945 --> 01:03:33,412
And we started there with our teeth on the floor.

1401
01:03:33,412 --> 01:03:36,148
And then, you know. Every day,

1402
01:03:36,148 --> 01:03:38,903
and, you know, is Cosby was everyday.

1403
01:03:38,903 --> 01:03:43,533
This was every day. Because he don't belong there and

1404
01:03:43,621 --> 01:03:44,407
you know,

1405
01:03:44,407 --> 01:03:50,232
there's nothing worse, nothing worse than having a client suffering

1406
01:03:50,319 --> 01:03:52,580
when he's not supposed to.

1407
01:03:52,580 --> 01:03:56,480
Uhm, you know I've had lots of cases before.

1408
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:01,510
1 lot. Loste UM Ann?

1409
01:04:01,510 --> 01:04:03,962
I can't imagine what it would be to lose for

1410
01:04:04,018 --> 01:04:04,910
an innocent man.

1411
01:04:04,910 --> 01:04:08,782
Um, that's the first in closest time I ever came

1412
01:04:08,862 --> 01:04:10,153
to that feeling,

1413
01:04:10,153 --> 01:04:12,775
which is this, is along a wrong,

1414
01:04:12,775 --> 01:04:15,555
and so getting back to your point.

1415
01:04:15,555 --> 01:04:19,080
Uhm, you know, did this ever come to a point

1416
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:23,567
where I was publicly and doing things and saying things

1417
01:04:23,647 --> 01:04:24,929
about the court,

1418
01:04:24,929 --> 01:04:27,630
which I've never done in 25 years?

1419
01:04:27,630 --> 01:04:29,160
Yeah, yeah, UM I I,

1420
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,733
I and and it's nothing that I take great pride

1421
01:04:32,811 --> 01:04:34,287
in or great joy in.

1422
01:04:34,287 --> 01:04:38,639
But when you see someone suffering who's not supposed to

1423
01:04:38,717 --> 01:04:39,261
suffer,

1424
01:04:39,261 --> 01:04:42,610
uhm it changes everything.

1425
01:04:42,610 --> 01:04:46,300
It really does. Uhm, I don't have to put it.

1426
01:04:46,300 --> 01:04:48,121
Trium can you talk we?

1427
01:04:48,121 --> 01:04:51,911
We'd be remiss to let you go without asking you

1428
01:04:51,991 --> 01:04:52,475
about,

1429
01:04:52,475 --> 01:04:55,484
um, your partners. You have built-in,

1430
01:04:55,484 --> 01:04:59,877
maintains a firm and a practice that's really unique in

1431
01:04:59,957 --> 01:05:04,430
its success in cohesiveness and the relationships there.

1432
01:05:04,430 --> 01:05:08,540
Can you talk to people about how you've pulled that

1433
01:05:08,621 --> 01:05:08,943
off,

1434
01:05:08,943 --> 01:05:11,635
what it's meant to, your success,

1435
01:05:11,635 --> 01:05:15,568
and anything you can offer to folks that may want

1436
01:05:15,648 --> 01:05:17,414
to emulate it and say,

1437
01:05:17,414 --> 01:05:20,282
gosh. I love be able to have my stuff be

1438
01:05:20,353 --> 01:05:24,225
this successful an and stay together and stay healthy.

1439
01:05:24,225 --> 01:05:25,721
Yeah, you know, I I,

1440
01:05:25,721 --> 01:05:29,345
you're right in in and we are a little bit

1441
01:05:29,431 --> 01:05:30,380
of unusual.

1442
01:05:30,380 --> 01:05:36,586
Farm in that regard, in that we've been together seamlessly

1443
01:05:36,692 --> 01:05:38,585
for a few decades,

1444
01:05:38,585 --> 01:05:43,396
and. I am or small group and the thing that

1445
01:05:43,508 --> 01:05:45,522
has worked for us,

1446
01:05:45,522 --> 01:05:49,724
Bob is friendship. We started as friends and then became

1447
01:05:49,799 --> 01:05:52,725
Fred Perry and I became a law partners.

1448
01:05:52,725 --> 01:05:55,837
We just decided to start a farm with Walt McEwen,

1449
01:05:55,837 --> 01:05:58,210
Dave Meshach and others and.

1450
01:05:58,210 --> 01:06:02,280
They were great. Um friendships

1451
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,130
At the beginning of that.

1452
01:06:04,130 --> 01:06:06,855
And we're all kind of the same type of guy.

1453
01:06:06,855 --> 01:06:10,642
You know I've got a few seconds talking about what

1454
01:06:10,718 --> 01:06:11,400
I'm like.

1455
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:13,616
Fred has a very similar,

1456
01:06:13,616 --> 01:06:19,171
if not, um, you know more extremely Philadelphia experience in

1457
01:06:19,260 --> 01:06:21,948
terms of growing up in Philly,

1458
01:06:21,948 --> 01:06:25,050
going to Frankfort high, you know,

1459
01:06:25,050 --> 01:06:30,690
not coming from money. And so we are enormously alike,

1460
01:06:30,690 --> 01:06:36,640
uhm, and it never occurred to me along the way.

1461
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:39,876
That his success wasn't mine and mine wasn't his.

1462
01:06:39,876 --> 01:06:42,715
And if you can have that if you can have

1463
01:06:42,786 --> 01:06:46,405
a relationship that's kind of born out of that kind

1464
01:06:46,476 --> 01:06:47,470
of friendship.

1465
01:06:47,470 --> 01:06:50,440
It can survive anything you're going to have good times.

1466
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:52,732
You're going to have bad times financially.

1467
01:06:52,732 --> 01:06:55,380
You're going to have cases that you win cases that

1468
01:06:55,433 --> 01:06:55,910
you lose,

1469
01:06:55,910 --> 01:06:58,296
and you're going to be on top and then you're

1470
01:06:58,349 --> 01:06:58,932
not on top.

1471
01:06:58,932 --> 01:07:01,788
And that's going to happen to every firm everywhere in

1472
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:02,475
the country.

1473
01:07:02,475 --> 01:07:04,738
But if you can have that kind of respect in

1474
01:07:04,790 --> 01:07:07,737
relationship where you're really rooting for each other,

1475
01:07:07,737 --> 01:07:10,323
I keep talking about team stuff and we keep going

1476
01:07:10,376 --> 01:07:11,801
back to the sports analogy.

1477
01:07:11,801 --> 01:07:13,416
But really, it's kind of that.

1478
01:07:13,416 --> 01:07:16,386
You know, it's like having a great team where everybody's

1479
01:07:16,438 --> 01:07:17,480
really good friends.

1480
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,441
And so, and there's a fierce loyalty there.

1481
01:07:20,441 --> 01:07:24,210
Uhm, you know, we're very fiercely loyal to each other.

1482
01:07:24,210 --> 01:07:27,293
Or families are close. And so you know,

1483
01:07:27,293 --> 01:07:29,438
we had our mothers working force.

1484
01:07:29,438 --> 01:07:32,121
I mean, I always used to make jokes and we

1485
01:07:32,185 --> 01:07:34,612
had my mother making meatballs in the,

1486
01:07:34,612 --> 01:07:38,410
you know, in the backroom all his mothers frying eggs

1487
01:07:38,482 --> 01:07:40,130
and and Peppers and uh.

1488
01:07:40,130 --> 01:07:41,659
It's that kind of setup.

1489
01:07:41,659 --> 01:07:44,411
I know that that's probably an exaggeration,

1490
01:07:44,411 --> 01:07:47,836
but it's always. It's always been more important that we

1491
01:07:47,897 --> 01:07:51,750
were friends then we were business partners and somewhere along

1492
01:07:51,811 --> 01:07:54,380
the way we became great business partners.

1493
01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:59,226
Right, that's a good place to stop.

1494
01:07:59,226 --> 01:08:02,479
It was inspiring to hear about the your mindset because

1495
01:08:02,538 --> 01:08:04,608
those of us who've been through it,

1496
01:08:04,608 --> 01:08:05,980
it's.

1497
01:08:05,980 --> 01:08:07,648
It's the human parts of it.

1498
01:08:07,648 --> 01:08:10,948
The empathy in the connection with the people that have

1499
01:08:11,008 --> 01:08:14,307
driven your career and it's you know you been extremely

1500
01:08:14,367 --> 01:08:16,407
successful doing it the right way.

1501
01:08:16,407 --> 01:08:18,612
Thank you. Thank you guys and again,

1502
01:08:18,612 --> 01:08:22,001
my my best. You and your families during these difficult

1503
01:08:22,062 --> 01:08:22,425
times.

1504
01:08:22,425 --> 01:08:23,974
Thank you for joining us.

1505
01:08:23,974 --> 01:08:27,335
We hope you've enjoyed this episode of iron advocate and

1506
01:08:27,395 --> 01:08:30,816
that you take what you've learned an integrated into your

1507
01:08:30,877 --> 01:08:32,197
own personal practice.

1508
01:08:32,197 --> 01:08:35,415
As always, we leave you with a minute of mindfulness.

1509
01:08:35,415 --> 01:08:41,940
Breathe in. Breathe out and we'll see you next time.