Iron Advocate

Unlock the inner game of advocacy, the winning mindset, psychology and personal habits of highly successful attorneys. We are warriors. Litigation is a form of combat and hardship always accompanies battle. Fear. Dread. Vulnerability. Iron Advocates embrace those feelings while living an examined professional and personal life. For 26 years, Jeff Riebel and Bob Levant have engaged in a daily conversation about life in and out of the law. Each is a seasoned litigator. Bob has successfully defended cases including capital murder and secured numerous multimillion dollar verdicts and settlements in civil rights cases. Jeff typically represents clients in which marital estates worth tens of millions and sometimes billions of dollars are in dispute. His clients include CEOs, venture capitalists and other highly successful and well-known Californians. Join Jeff, Bob and their guests as they discuss how to kill it in the practice of law without it killing you.

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Iron Advocate

Ep 10 - Kevin Harden

June 21, 2020 • Kevin Harden • Season 1 • Episode 10

The theme of this episode is grit...and Kevin Harden defines the word. Kevin has lived an extraordinary life...packing experiences worthy of a movie into his 34 years. In May 2019, Kevin stood with his client, Terrence Lewis, as a judge freed Mr. Lewis who had served 21 years of a life sentence for a crime he did not commit. Kevin shares the shocking tale of Mr. Lewis who was proclaimed factually innocent by a federal judge in 2008 yet served an additional 10 years as an innocent man because of a broken system. 2019 had another career highlight for Kevin as he and his co-counsel secured a $9.6 million verdict in a challenging medical malpractice case. Kevin also takes us on an unfiltered journey through his life including the death of both parents, managing a McDonalds at age 16, being arrested 7 times and what Kevin describes as his turning point...On January 14, 2006, Kevin was shot 5 times. One year later, Kevin began law school. In 2010, Kevin began his first job earning his trial chops as an assistant district attorney. When some of his new co-workers at the district attorney’s office accessed his expunged criminal case files and provided them to the news media, Kevin used the ensuing articles to fuel his drive onward. Enjoy this episode of Iron Advocate as we continue to explore how lawyers can kill it in the practice of law without it killing us.

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The theme of this episode of iron advocate is grit

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and Kevin Hart and defines the word Kevin's lived an

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extraordinary life packing experience is worthy of a movie into

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his

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34 years in May 2019,

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Kevin stood with his client,

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Terrence Lewis, as a judge freed Mr Lewis,

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who had served 21 years of a life sentence for

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a crime he did not commit.

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Kevin shares the shocking tale of Mr Lewis,

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who was proclaimed factually innocent by a federal judge in

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2008.

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Yet served an additional 10 years as an innocent man

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because of a broken system.

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2019 had another career highlight for Kevin as he and

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his Co counsel secured in 9.6 million dollar verdict in

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a challenging medical malpractice case.

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Kevin also takes us on an unfiltered journey through his

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life,

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which included the death of both parents managing a McDonald's

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at age 16 being arrested Seven times and what Kevin

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describes as his turning point on January 14th,

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2006. Kevin Harden was shot 5 *

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1 year later. Kevin began law school in 2010.

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Kevin took his first job as a lawyer,

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earning his trout chops as an assistant District Attorney.

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When some of his new coworkers at the district attorneys

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office accessed his expunged criminal case files and provided them

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to the news media,

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Kevin used the ensuing articles to fuel his drive onward.

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Enjoy this episode of iron advocate as we continue to

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explore how lawyers can kill it.

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And the practice of law without it killing us.

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You're listening to iron advocate,

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the podcast dedicated to you,

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the trial attorney. Visionary Warrior Unfiltered no holds barred.

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Iron advocate. Join Bob live at Jeffrey Bowl and today's

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top legal minds on a journey to discover how to

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kill it in the law without it killing you.

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Because being the best advocate for others begins with being

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the best advocate for yourself.

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Grid is kind of a theme that runs through your

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life,

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um, and we want to start at a place where

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you had some grip,

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but you may be represented a client that had as

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much grit as anybody you're going to run across,

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which is which is Terrence Lewis,

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so. Um, we want to start by asking you about

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representing Mr Lewis in May of 2019.

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You stood beside him as a judge judge.

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I think Barber Mcdermitt actually ruled that he was factually

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innocent on vacated his conviction,

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setting him up to be freed immediately.

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Um, after 21 years, serving time for a crime he

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hadn't committed.

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How did that?

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Feel to finally. Get him released,

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and particularly when my understanding is you didn't expect it

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to happen that day.

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No, we did not expect it to happen that day.

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Um, I met Terrence 5 six years ago when I

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joined the law firm of Eckert Seamans in their white

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collar and commercial litigation Department and one of my first

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assignments was to develop a strategy to attack the conviction

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of attack.

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Terrence Lewis is conviction in what was a newly established

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conviction integrity unit at the district attorneys office and that

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was one of my first assignments at this new big

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white shoe law firm. I just left the district attorneys

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office.

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Is I had never worked in a law firm setting

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where there were 500 lawyers in six 616 offices and

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what happened is is for that next five years through

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trips to Sci Huntington where he was incarcerated,

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which is about four hours from Philadelphia,

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probably around the Penn State area and meeting him through

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telephone calls and letters to me and to my.

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To my home. I mean he would send you Father's

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Day cards.

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I developed a relationship with someone who was remarkably human,

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who again, like you, said,

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demonstrated the grit and the passion necessary to pretty much.

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He lifted up his legal team.

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Terrance is personality lifted up his legal team,

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so the listeners have some orientation.

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the Supreme Court decision that ruled that mandatory life sentence

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is for juveniles were unconstitutional,

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right? Yes, there were two successive.

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Opinions one wasn't opinion that was proactive,

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and then there was a second decision that was retroactive.

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And so, So what happened was because Terrence Lewis was

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essentially out of court,

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right? There was no jurisdiction to hear his case until

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the Supreme Court made that ruling and he was coming

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back in front of the judge for resentencing.

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Which is what gave the judge jurisdiction over his case.

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do I have? Is that right in this world of

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what we call post conviction litigation habeas litigation?

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Terrence had been out of court for a significant amount

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of time until we brought his case to the conviction

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integrity unit and the reason we were able to get

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their attention is because ten years ago the court appointed

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my former boss,

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Dave Lletget. The federal court to litigate hey Beas motion

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on behalf of Terrence and then hey Beas motion is

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pretty much the classic.

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Bring me the body of this person and explain why

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they were.

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They should stay in prison.

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During that litigation. Uh, Terrance was found to be factually

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innocent based upon the.

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Facts that were brought to light during his habeas hearing.

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But because of legislation that prohibits lifers from relitigating matters

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that were not fully litigated in state court,

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Terrence was foreclosed from being granted.

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Relief in the federal courts tell listeners what those facts

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words.

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Terrence had a court appointed lawyer who did not file

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his appeals in a timely fashion,

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and he had made claims that his lawyer,

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his lawyer, was ineffective, and that he had newly discovered

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evidence.

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And at the time in Pennsylvania,

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Pennsylvania had one of the most strict laws when it

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came to newly discovered evidence.

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You had to file a claim within 60 days of

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you discovering.

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That new evidence and Terrance's lawyer filed it a year

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and a half later or something like that.

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So what ends up happening is in just the background.

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Terrence on the night of the incident,

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there was an allegation at three men went into a

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drug house shot the owner of the house over a

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drug debt,

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and then they all ran.

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The thing was that there were dozens of people out

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on the street that evening.

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It was a hot summer evening and no one ever

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interviewed any of the people that were on the street.

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No one ever made an attempt to and then later

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on in life.

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A woman discovered that Terrence was arrested for that murder.

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She was present on the night of the murder across

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the street.

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She said that after the shooting everyone was rushed inside

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the home.

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No one, no one ever asked her who she saw

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leaving the House and she was able to tell.

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Tell the police look I went to high school with

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Terrence Lewis and I saw it a 3 minute left

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that evening and none of them were Terrence Lewis then.

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We also had Terrence Lewis,

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his Codefendant, Jamar Gladden. Jamar was present at the time

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of the murder and he said look.

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I don't agree with the facts as they came out

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in the case,

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but I was there and he wasn't and he wasn't

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available during.

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Uh, he wasn't available during the trial because they were

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Co defendants,

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so Terence presented that evidence and based off presenting that

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evidence,

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a federal Magistrate Judge and then a federal judge adopted

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her opinion that yes,

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he was factually innocent, but essentially procedurally defaulted.

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The worst thing you could ever have.

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Is a client who is affirmatively innocent?

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And that you saw them going down and for the

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system to fail in such a way that a federal

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judge declared your clients affirmative innocence.

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And then he sits for another 10 years,

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365 days, 24 hours, times 10 and he sits through

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that.

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How does that happen in the in the system?

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and I know he talked about this incredibly draconian.

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Law that says if you don't.

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If you don't. Within 60 days of finding newly discovered

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evidence,

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if you don't act, which is you know for people

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out there who don't litigate 60 days as a Cup

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of coffee and somebody in jail is supposed to act

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within 60 days, it's absolutely unreasonable.

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But still, how does this system fail a guy to

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such a degree that he sits in jail for another

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10 years?

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The inequities in the system are baked into the cake.

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And the idea of Terrence won't tell you that the

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system was broken.

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He said that the system was designed to.

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Operate in the exact way that it did Terrence.

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His case was one of hundreds of cases where,

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uh, the death penalty was solved so that there was

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a death penalty.

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Qualified jury Kevin let me just jump in for sex

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so listeners realize when someone is charged in a capital

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case as Terrence was.

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The law is that those what we you referred to

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his death qualified jurors,

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people who say that they can affirmatively impose the death

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penalty are the only ones that are able to get

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on the jury.

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All the rest of all the rest of our excluded.

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But then it goes farther than that.

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In this particular case, all of the witnesses were individuals

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who had drug dependency issues.

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An all of the defendants were minors.

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They were 17 and 18 year old young.

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African American men and then the remainder of the witnesses

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were professional witnesses.

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People who go to court every day and testify for

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living police officers,

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and. People don't understand that you know when you think

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about our federal judiciary.

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When you think about our state judiciary.

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When you think about our appellate process,

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we write with this abstract nature of this is one

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case.

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This is how things work.

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But there are biases that exist in the system where

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you know.

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Everyone presumes that everyone is doing what they're supposed to

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do,

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whether it be fully investigating,

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turning over evidence, and all it takes is for one

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little piece of that.

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Process to be either biased or for there to be

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some intentional shoving.

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You know a little bit,

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towing the line that can throw the entire system into

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into Wack.

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And that's what happened in Terrence.

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Is case in Terrence his case there was hidden evidence

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there was a lack of diligence and discipline when it

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comes to showing photo arrays.

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There was witness coaching and a lot of that stuff

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would never come out unless you have.

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The entire police file, and in this Case No one

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ever had the entire police file.

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The reason Terrence was able to get back into court

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is once we got the entire police file and we

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analyzed it as two lawyers who are working pro bono,

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we have all of the resources in the world of

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of a national law firm.

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And now we're realizing that this lawyer that Terrence had

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when he was represented initially,

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who only saw Terrence one time while Terence was incarcerated

248
00:12:17,337 --> 00:12:18,150
and did not.

249
00:12:18,150 --> 00:12:20,463
Perform any sort of Investigation,

250
00:12:20,463 --> 00:12:24,399
Miss things, and those things were being missed because the

251
00:12:24,465 --> 00:12:27,667
system has taken on this conveyor belt style of,

252
00:12:27,667 --> 00:12:31,020
you know it's almost industrial the way that we do

253
00:12:31,087 --> 00:12:32,227
criminal justice.

254
00:12:32,227 --> 00:12:36,299
And when things become, when it becomes more about efficiency

255
00:12:36,366 --> 00:12:38,769
than it does about getting it right,

256
00:12:38,769 --> 00:12:40,950
you end up with people who have.

257
00:12:40,950 --> 00:12:42,735
Again, like you said this,

258
00:12:42,735 --> 00:12:45,444
this was our. This is our Golden ticket.

259
00:12:45,444 --> 00:12:48,220
This was the ticket that we walked around.

260
00:12:48,220 --> 00:12:51,179
In the criminal justice system with for 10 years,

261
00:12:51,179 --> 00:12:55,323
a federal judge called Terrence Lewis innocent and published the

262
00:12:55,388 --> 00:12:57,460
opinion and we the system is so.

263
00:12:57,460 --> 00:13:01,145
The system believes in itself so much that not even

264
00:13:01,217 --> 00:13:05,770
a federal judge telling people that this individual is innocent

265
00:13:05,842 --> 00:13:09,455
was enough for the system that take a second guess

266
00:13:09,455 --> 00:13:11,466
of itself. How old are you?

267
00:13:11,466 --> 00:13:12,903
I am 34, all right?

268
00:13:12,903 --> 00:13:14,483
Anne at 34 years old,

269
00:13:14,483 --> 00:13:20,613
uhm? In in December of 2019 you and your Co

270
00:13:20,756 --> 00:13:24,035
counsel Josh Van Ardan.

271
00:13:24,035 --> 00:13:28,900
You guys represented a client.

272
00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:34,340
In a in a tragic misdiagnosis of of.

273
00:13:34,340 --> 00:13:39,506
Cervical cancer case. An you obtained a 9.6 million dollar

274
00:13:39,595 --> 00:13:44,404
verdict in a really conservative area of Pennsylvania,

275
00:13:44,404 --> 00:13:48,960
where verdicts like that are largely unheard of.

276
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,850
Um?

277
00:13:50,850 --> 00:13:53,359
If you boil your success down,

278
00:13:53,359 --> 00:13:55,706
Congrats to you. By the way,

279
00:13:55,706 --> 00:13:59,592
if you board your success in that case down to,

280
00:13:59,592 --> 00:14:01,790
you know.

281
00:14:01,790 --> 00:14:04,280
One thing.

282
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,770
What did your success hinge on in that case?

283
00:14:08,770 --> 00:14:11,247
Thank you first and foremost an.

284
00:14:11,247 --> 00:14:15,070
In that case I would say doggedness.

285
00:14:15,070 --> 00:14:20,924
It would have to be doggedness that that case required

286
00:14:21,033 --> 00:14:26,562
us to dig deeper and deeper in every direction that

287
00:14:26,670 --> 00:14:30,356
we possibly could for that family,

288
00:14:30,356 --> 00:14:32,940
and it was a very dog'd.

289
00:14:32,940 --> 00:14:36,217
Style of litigation. It was not it.

290
00:14:36,217 --> 00:14:42,890
It wasn't anything but doggedness and everything that we did.

291
00:14:42,890 --> 00:14:45,482
Talk about that. What did you do so,

292
00:14:45,482 --> 00:14:47,513
um, for a bit of background,

293
00:14:47,513 --> 00:14:50,674
an 11 year old girl presents to five or six

294
00:14:50,747 --> 00:14:55,084
different health care providers over over the course of two

295
00:14:55,158 --> 00:14:58,980
years complaining of bleeding from her private area.

296
00:14:58,980 --> 00:15:02,521
And everyone just keeps telling her and she starts,

297
00:15:02,521 --> 00:15:04,973
or actually either 10 or 11 or not.

298
00:15:04,973 --> 00:15:09,176
Maybe 9. But she's telling everybody I'm having some problems

299
00:15:09,245 --> 00:15:10,898
down there in everybody.

300
00:15:10,898 --> 00:15:13,759
Rotor off, um, she's a child at the time,

301
00:15:13,759 --> 00:15:18,310
but her primary caregivers, her grandmother and her grandmother is

302
00:15:18,379 --> 00:15:19,275
an immigrant.

303
00:15:19,275 --> 00:15:23,189
She is from the Dominican Republic and she does not

304
00:15:23,266 --> 00:15:24,340
speak English.

305
00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:26,682
And everyone wrote the young lady off.

306
00:15:26,682 --> 00:15:29,325
Everyone wrote the young lady off as lying.

307
00:15:29,325 --> 00:15:32,610
There's no way you could have been bleeding down there

308
00:15:32,671 --> 00:15:33,949
for 60 days straight.

309
00:15:33,949 --> 00:15:36,351
That's impossible. You would be anemic.

310
00:15:36,351 --> 00:15:39,423
You would be. You would be falling over you just

311
00:15:39,487 --> 00:15:43,520
don't have the biological or biophysical profile or someone who

312
00:15:43,584 --> 00:15:47,040
has been bleeding for 60 days straight and eventually.

313
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,103
She was given an ultrasound after six or Seven visits

314
00:15:51,179 --> 00:15:54,782
to different medical providers and long behold,

315
00:15:54,782 --> 00:15:58,426
there was a baseball sized tumor on her cervix,

316
00:15:58,426 --> 00:16:02,926
and she was diagnosed with carcinoma of the cervix and

317
00:16:03,010 --> 00:16:05,260
underwent some of the most.

318
00:16:05,260 --> 00:16:10,753
The most horrific. Surgeries and treatments for a young lady

319
00:16:10,845 --> 00:16:15,972
that you could possibly imagine an the doggedness was we

320
00:16:16,064 --> 00:16:20,733
were dealing with 66 to 10 year old medical records

321
00:16:20,733 --> 00:16:26,240
that were We were certain that they had been.

322
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,644
Did the records were inconsistent?

323
00:16:28,644 --> 00:16:30,498
Some of them were missing,

324
00:16:30,498 --> 00:16:34,344
some of them were. There were visits that didn't exist.

325
00:16:34,344 --> 00:16:38,422
We had to cross reference billing records to determine that

326
00:16:38,491 --> 00:16:41,808
she had seen doctors that weren't even on the on

327
00:16:41,877 --> 00:16:45,264
the there was a list of roster of Physicians that

328
00:16:45,264 --> 00:16:49,620
worked at the hot worked at this one particular.

329
00:16:49,620 --> 00:16:52,980
Clinic and that doctor wanted the doctors that she had

330
00:16:53,043 --> 00:16:54,536
seen had been eliminate.

331
00:16:54,536 --> 00:16:57,771
Just deleted, deleted from the records so it was one

332
00:16:57,833 --> 00:16:59,575
of those things where in 99%

333
00:16:59,575 --> 00:17:01,419
of cases where I investigate,

334
00:17:01,419 --> 00:17:04,102
I know for a fact that the records in front

335
00:17:04,164 --> 00:17:05,474
of me tell the truth.

336
00:17:05,474 --> 00:17:08,984
This was one of those cases where we had to

337
00:17:09,066 --> 00:17:10,290
find the truth.

338
00:17:10,290 --> 00:17:13,285
Kevin, let me ask you a question about that.

339
00:17:13,285 --> 00:17:17,013
'cause This is I'm seeing parallels in a different way.

340
00:17:17,013 --> 00:17:20,994
Between this and Terrence Lewis and one of the parallels

341
00:17:21,065 --> 00:17:23,908
is bias bias in the system and I want to

342
00:17:23,980 --> 00:17:25,970
know if you directly if you.

343
00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:29,801
Directly address this, 'cause this is the kind of complexity

344
00:17:29,865 --> 00:17:32,675
that makes people iron advocates to be able.

345
00:17:32,675 --> 00:17:35,821
You're in Reading PA. Do you have largely a white

346
00:17:35,886 --> 00:17:36,913
jury pool there?

347
00:17:36,913 --> 00:17:39,823
It's reading. Reading is a very diverse city,

348
00:17:39,823 --> 00:17:42,290
but Berks County is the entire County,

349
00:17:42,290 --> 00:17:43,935
so the diverse jury pool.

350
00:17:43,935 --> 00:17:45,327
No, we picked a jury.

351
00:17:45,327 --> 00:17:48,796
They brought in 150 people and there were four persons

352
00:17:48,860 --> 00:17:49,438
of color.

353
00:17:49,438 --> 00:17:52,123
So you had and did any of those folks make

354
00:17:52,186 --> 00:17:55,191
the jury know our jury was in an entirely white

355
00:17:55,254 --> 00:17:55,574
jury?

356
00:17:55,574 --> 00:18:00,158
Great jury. Great jury. This they showed up,

357
00:18:00,158 --> 00:18:02,896
and that's a testament to your lawyer in right,

358
00:18:02,896 --> 00:18:05,492
and so the bias that I'm talking to jumps out

359
00:18:05,550 --> 00:18:08,030
at me that this girl is Dominican Republic.

360
00:18:08,030 --> 00:18:09,342
She's a girl of color.

361
00:18:09,342 --> 00:18:10,825
My right about that, yes,

362
00:18:10,825 --> 00:18:13,981
alright, so she goes into to receive treatment and this

363
00:18:14,038 --> 00:18:17,538
reminds me of this studies that have shown consistently women

364
00:18:17,595 --> 00:18:20,923
of color African women don't receive the same treatment of

365
00:18:20,923 --> 00:18:24,402
white women. They don't. They're not diagnosed as carefully.

366
00:18:24,402 --> 00:18:27,590
They're not, they're not given medicine in the same way

367
00:18:27,648 --> 00:18:27,996
there,

368
00:18:27,996 --> 00:18:31,362
under treated consistently. How did you have to factor that

369
00:18:31,419 --> 00:18:31,590
in?

370
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:33,201
When you were talking to this,

371
00:18:33,201 --> 00:18:37,131
this all white jury. So one of the interesting things

372
00:18:37,205 --> 00:18:40,320
about it was is that we didn't address it.

373
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,017
It was one of those unspoken things,

374
00:18:43,017 --> 00:18:45,933
so we did not need to speak about bias.

375
00:18:45,933 --> 00:18:49,505
We allowed the bias to come out during the case.

376
00:18:49,505 --> 00:18:52,885
There was a line of questioning for one of our

377
00:18:52,959 --> 00:18:57,221
experts where the young lady's mother had been had dropped

378
00:18:57,295 --> 00:18:58,691
out of high school,

379
00:18:58,691 --> 00:19:02,387
and then there was on her grandmother was from the

380
00:19:02,461 --> 00:19:03,866
Dominican Republic.

381
00:19:03,866 --> 00:19:07,730
She had no real formal education beyond eighth grade.

382
00:19:07,730 --> 00:19:10,646
So we bring in an economist that says that she's

383
00:19:10,707 --> 00:19:13,015
gonna if she would have not been sick,

384
00:19:13,015 --> 00:19:16,968
she would have attained either her high school diploma associates

385
00:19:17,028 --> 00:19:17,819
or bachelors.

386
00:19:17,819 --> 00:19:20,041
We didn't even give her the Masters.

387
00:19:20,041 --> 00:19:23,214
We didn't use those numbers and then the defense got

388
00:19:23,275 --> 00:19:23,885
up in Lam,

389
00:19:23,885 --> 00:19:27,390
basted our our expert economists about how there's a trend

390
00:19:27,450 --> 00:19:31,318
in the economic studies about families having the same education

391
00:19:31,378 --> 00:19:33,554
level as the rest of their families,

392
00:19:33,554 --> 00:19:35,295
and they just hit our heart.

393
00:19:35,295 --> 00:19:37,397
They hit the economist super hard,

394
00:19:37,397 --> 00:19:40,580
and I'm making this point about how Tobias backfired.

395
00:19:40,580 --> 00:19:44,402
The young lady at this point is a 10th grader

396
00:19:44,487 --> 00:19:46,950
with a 4.0 average in school.

397
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:49,591
So she's got more education than her mom.

398
00:19:49,591 --> 00:19:52,420
She's got more education in her grandmother,

399
00:19:52,420 --> 00:19:54,747
and so they're just what was it for?

400
00:19:54,747 --> 00:19:57,672
Why would you try to drag in how well Hispanic

401
00:19:57,736 --> 00:20:00,280
students do in certain school districts?

402
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,675
Why would you drag in her family's lack of Education?

403
00:20:03,675 --> 00:20:06,721
Why would you drag in all of these outliers when

404
00:20:06,785 --> 00:20:09,577
the truth of the matter is is the young girl

405
00:20:09,641 --> 00:20:10,529
is right here,

406
00:20:10,529 --> 00:20:13,610
and we're not. We don't want to talk about that.

407
00:20:13,610 --> 00:20:16,565
We don't want to talk about the fact that she's

408
00:20:16,628 --> 00:20:17,760
Hispanic and from.

409
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,579
Uneducated family and we knew it backfire when one of

410
00:20:21,651 --> 00:20:25,254
the jurors and this is one of those Golden moments

411
00:20:25,326 --> 00:20:28,352
that every juror every trial lawyer loves.

412
00:20:28,352 --> 00:20:31,130
One of the jurors.

413
00:20:31,130 --> 00:20:34,436
Had arranged by, you know you set your trial schedule

414
00:20:34,498 --> 00:20:37,180
and we had known that we had to leave early

415
00:20:37,242 --> 00:20:39,176
one day of the week every week.

416
00:20:39,176 --> 00:20:41,687
And why was that one of the jurors was a

417
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:43,570
volunteer teacher for a very,

418
00:20:43,570 --> 00:20:47,029
very important class. We didn't know what type of class

419
00:20:47,092 --> 00:20:47,532
it was,

420
00:20:47,532 --> 00:20:50,673
but one day we had been running behind schedule in

421
00:20:50,736 --> 00:20:51,678
the judge says,

422
00:20:51,678 --> 00:20:54,234
hey, ask the jewelry if we can stay in if

423
00:20:54,296 --> 00:20:57,849
that person can rearrange her schedule and the jury comes

424
00:20:57,911 --> 00:21:00,467
out all 14 and the young lady who had the

425
00:21:00,467 --> 00:21:03,381
appointment. That was the drawer she said.

426
00:21:03,381 --> 00:21:06,806
Listen, judge, it's OK. I can cancel it and the

427
00:21:06,879 --> 00:21:09,940
rest of the jury got upset like she was OK

428
00:21:10,013 --> 00:21:13,438
with four going her her plans for that evening.

429
00:21:13,438 --> 00:21:16,043
But the rest of the jury was upset.

430
00:21:16,043 --> 00:21:18,213
Like no, it's very important.

431
00:21:18,213 --> 00:21:21,762
You should go do that and we could see them

432
00:21:21,845 --> 00:21:23,000
exchanging so.

433
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,394
The judge says look, I don't want to pry into

434
00:21:25,447 --> 00:21:26,192
your business,

435
00:21:26,192 --> 00:21:29,122
but is it something where you can arrange someone else?

436
00:21:29,122 --> 00:21:30,325
She said No, she said,

437
00:21:30,325 --> 00:21:32,000
well, what type of class is it?

438
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,779
Is it like? Is it like CPR class?

439
00:21:33,779 --> 00:21:35,244
Is it? What is it she said?

440
00:21:35,244 --> 00:21:38,370
Well, I teach I teach and esau class.

441
00:21:38,370 --> 00:21:41,132
I see we are. We all looked around and I

442
00:21:41,201 --> 00:21:44,515
saw the other side of the fence say what's Esau?

443
00:21:44,515 --> 00:21:47,451
And I'm like English as a second language.

444
00:21:47,451 --> 00:21:52,040
She's a Spanish teacher. She teaches Spanish to immigrants.

445
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,283
In her free time, this is our juror,

446
00:21:56,283 --> 00:21:59,876
his trial. We watch the entire jury encourage her because

447
00:21:59,939 --> 00:22:02,838
they thought it was so important for her to go

448
00:22:02,901 --> 00:22:06,242
teach Hispanic people English so that they can have a

449
00:22:06,242 --> 00:22:09,604
better life. in America. We're sitting there and this is

450
00:22:09,664 --> 00:22:12,305
day Seven of the jury trial that was the day

451
00:22:12,365 --> 00:22:13,626
that the grandmother,

452
00:22:13,626 --> 00:22:16,067
who didn't speak English, was testified,

453
00:22:16,067 --> 00:22:17,913
testified, and was beat up on.

454
00:22:17,913 --> 00:22:19,521
4 oh, you speak spanglish,

455
00:22:19,521 --> 00:22:23,132
so you understand English, so the defense had literally beat

456
00:22:23,192 --> 00:22:25,058
up on the grandmother that day.

457
00:22:25,058 --> 00:22:27,440
And then we hear that one of the jurors.

458
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,545
Is a volunteer Spanish teacher that that is why we

459
00:22:31,627 --> 00:22:33,597
didn't make it an issue.

460
00:22:33,597 --> 00:22:36,513
The bias was coming out on its own.

461
00:22:36,513 --> 00:22:40,980
Can you speak to? The faith that.

462
00:22:40,980 --> 00:22:45,656
A real trial lawyer warrior needs to having a jury

463
00:22:45,749 --> 00:22:50,051
so number one you have to have faith in people

464
00:22:50,145 --> 00:22:54,540
You can't walk into a courtroom and think that.

465
00:22:54,540 --> 00:22:59,330
Number one that 14 people are going to sit in

466
00:22:59,436 --> 00:23:04,120
a jury box and not figure out that your lack

467
00:23:04,226 --> 00:23:05,610
authenticity.

468
00:23:05,610 --> 00:23:08,939
I like to think of jurors as a collective body.

469
00:23:08,939 --> 00:23:10,950
A jury isn't 14 individuals.

470
00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:14,454
A jury is one collective body where one person may

471
00:23:14,524 --> 00:23:17,817
not understand the slang that the witness uses,

472
00:23:17,817 --> 00:23:22,374
but another drawer will and that almost symbiotic relationship is

473
00:23:22,444 --> 00:23:24,267
which you have to respect.

474
00:23:24,267 --> 00:23:26,347
I've been rejected by a jury.

475
00:23:26,347 --> 00:23:29,213
I mean, I think a better story would be a

476
00:23:29,282 --> 00:23:32,498
case where I was rejected by a jury where jury

477
00:23:32,567 --> 00:23:35,433
told me that I'd left authenticity and I,

478
00:23:35,433 --> 00:23:36,820
I came off his fake.

479
00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:39,230
And I came off like I didn't believe in the

480
00:23:39,286 --> 00:23:40,183
case that I had.

481
00:23:40,183 --> 00:23:42,016
So in in when I say I said it's a

482
00:23:42,071 --> 00:23:45,348
better instance where the the jury rejected you because now

483
00:23:45,403 --> 00:23:47,680
you have to go back to the office and ask

484
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,482
yourself why didn't the jury feel like I was being

485
00:23:50,538 --> 00:23:51,098
authentic?

486
00:23:51,098 --> 00:23:53,565
Why then the jury feel like I was putting my

487
00:23:53,621 --> 00:23:54,406
all into this?

488
00:23:54,406 --> 00:23:56,794
Why did the jury feel like I was putting on

489
00:23:56,849 --> 00:23:59,626
airs and you look at the level of preparedness you

490
00:23:59,682 --> 00:24:01,903
put into the case where he was prepared?

491
00:24:01,903 --> 00:24:04,639
In that case, did you do everything that you were

492
00:24:04,695 --> 00:24:06,258
supposed to do in that case?

493
00:24:06,258 --> 00:24:09,239
And that's what? I believe allows you to select a

494
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:12,402
jury with a lot with a lot less trepidation because

495
00:24:12,463 --> 00:24:15,383
you know that you're not trying to pull one over

496
00:24:15,383 --> 00:24:17,953
on the jury. All you need is for the jury

497
00:24:18,016 --> 00:24:18,643
to listen.

498
00:24:18,643 --> 00:24:21,657
We're right on, the facts were right on the law.

499
00:24:21,657 --> 00:24:24,695
Just just come. Listen to us and if you're honest

500
00:24:24,757 --> 00:24:27,486
and we are honest and even if the other side

501
00:24:27,548 --> 00:24:29,408
does whatever they want to do,

502
00:24:29,408 --> 00:24:30,885
if you meet us halfway,

503
00:24:30,885 --> 00:24:32,915
you'll get you'll get the right.

504
00:24:32,915 --> 00:24:35,006
You will make the right decision,

505
00:24:35,006 --> 00:24:38,820
but you were a an assistant District Attorney in Philadelphia.

506
00:24:38,820 --> 00:24:42,198
That's where you cut your teeth in your trial chops,

507
00:24:42,198 --> 00:24:45,799
right? Yes, you were subjected to something that I think

508
00:24:45,863 --> 00:24:49,592
really helps the listeners understand about your own grit.

509
00:24:49,592 --> 00:24:52,141
Now, shortly after, as I understand it,

510
00:24:52,141 --> 00:24:55,966
becoming assistant District Attorney, a colleague of yours,

511
00:24:55,966 --> 00:24:59,638
gain access to your personal files or your personal files

512
00:24:59,703 --> 00:25:01,893
and release some of them publicly.

513
00:25:01,893 --> 00:25:04,188
What happened is in for background,

514
00:25:04,188 --> 00:25:06,600
prior to becoming an attorney.

515
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,030
I I describe it as a temper tantrum.

516
00:25:09,030 --> 00:25:12,858
My mother was diagnosed with HIV when I was about

517
00:25:12,936 --> 00:25:13,170
11.

518
00:25:13,170 --> 00:25:15,470
And no one knew I knew I heard my dad

519
00:25:15,532 --> 00:25:17,583
after he got the news for my mom.

520
00:25:17,583 --> 00:25:19,728
He was on the phone late at night.

521
00:25:19,728 --> 00:25:22,078
I was up. You know how kids are up and

522
00:25:22,140 --> 00:25:24,984
he told his mother over the phone at my mother

523
00:25:25,046 --> 00:25:26,777
had been diagnosed with HIV.

524
00:25:26,777 --> 00:25:30,208
So if I'm 11 this would have been you know

525
00:25:30,290 --> 00:25:30,780
19 uh?

526
00:25:30,780 --> 00:25:32,190
Or maybe 2000 two 1001?

527
00:25:32,190 --> 00:25:34,560
So this is still when you know HIV was a

528
00:25:34,619 --> 00:25:37,937
dirty disease that you could get from hugging people and

529
00:25:37,996 --> 00:25:38,885
kissing people.

530
00:25:38,885 --> 00:25:40,764
And all of that misinformation.

531
00:25:40,764 --> 00:25:43,580
So as an 11 year old I'm forced to.

532
00:25:43,580 --> 00:25:47,303
Reconcile my mother's status as HIV positive with the desire

533
00:25:47,365 --> 00:25:48,978
to have a mother you know.

534
00:25:48,978 --> 00:25:51,667
Like you know you go to school and kids are

535
00:25:51,729 --> 00:25:52,167
saying,

536
00:25:52,167 --> 00:25:55,076
well, you dirty you got you got aids and that's

537
00:25:55,138 --> 00:25:58,418
things differently when you know that your mom is HIV

538
00:25:58,480 --> 00:25:59,037
positive.

539
00:25:59,037 --> 00:26:02,255
It also things a lot differently when you don't feel

540
00:26:02,317 --> 00:26:05,845
comfortable talking about it with your dad or your grant.

541
00:26:05,845 --> 00:26:08,851
I didn't tell anyone I didn't tell anyone until a

542
00:26:08,912 --> 00:26:11,672
week before my mother died that I knew and it

543
00:26:11,734 --> 00:26:14,310
kinda freaked the entire family out there.

544
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:17,122
I had that secret for all that time,

545
00:26:17,122 --> 00:26:19,250
but long did you sit on it?

546
00:26:19,250 --> 00:26:21,910
I sat on that from the age of 11 to

547
00:26:21,986 --> 00:26:23,050
the age of 21.

548
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,641
So 10 years and my mom had a serious drug

549
00:26:27,701 --> 00:26:30,424
problem and at first I use her status and her

550
00:26:30,484 --> 00:26:33,207
drug problem as a motivation not to be in the

551
00:26:33,207 --> 00:26:36,730
streets, not to sell drugs to be a better student.

552
00:26:36,730 --> 00:26:39,913
An as things in my family from an economic perspective

553
00:26:39,972 --> 00:26:40,856
in the despair,

554
00:26:40,856 --> 00:26:44,022
I always say people tell people all of the disparities

555
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,070
that you read about the newspaper to happen to poor

556
00:26:47,129 --> 00:26:47,539
people.

557
00:26:47,539 --> 00:26:50,950
I've been through it. Loss family members young to obesity

558
00:26:51,009 --> 00:26:52,420
and lack of health care.

559
00:26:52,420 --> 00:26:54,950
All that stuff I've seen it all.

560
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:57,154
And, uh, when I turned it 17 I I was

561
00:26:57,216 --> 00:26:58,134
working 2 jobs,

562
00:26:58,134 --> 00:27:02,261
you know, working overnight, delivering papers for the newspaper and

563
00:27:02,322 --> 00:27:03,961
also working at McDonald's.

564
00:27:03,961 --> 00:27:06,568
I was a manager at age 16 because there was

565
00:27:06,629 --> 00:27:09,781
like a corporate takeover or for a new franchise are

566
00:27:09,842 --> 00:27:10,448
purchased.

567
00:27:10,448 --> 00:27:13,488
A couple of the corporate stores and he was really

568
00:27:13,549 --> 00:27:15,434
impressed with how well I work.

569
00:27:15,434 --> 00:27:18,302
Then he promoted me to manager at 16 so I'm

570
00:27:18,369 --> 00:27:20,770
like taking all this responsibility.

571
00:27:20,770 --> 00:27:23,223
And eventually it just all broke like,

572
00:27:23,223 --> 00:27:25,299
you know, as a as a 34 year old.

573
00:27:25,299 --> 00:27:28,500
I understand why 16 year old finally just said you

574
00:27:28,564 --> 00:27:28,884
know,

575
00:27:28,884 --> 00:27:31,631
to hell with all it is an I started hanging

576
00:27:31,695 --> 00:27:33,036
with the wrong crowd.

577
00:27:33,036 --> 00:27:36,472
I started selling drugs. I got myself arrested a total

578
00:27:36,535 --> 00:27:38,571
of Seven times for drug dealing,

579
00:27:38,571 --> 00:27:42,405
theft, burglary like just all of the things that come

580
00:27:42,478 --> 00:27:43,780
with being a very.

581
00:27:43,780 --> 00:27:48,435
A loste young man, um an that culminated with me

582
00:27:48,532 --> 00:27:51,442
being shot five times in 2006.

583
00:27:51,442 --> 00:27:55,255
Uhm, it to juxtapose that I was a one L

584
00:27:55,353 --> 00:27:56,135
in 2007.

585
00:27:56,135 --> 00:28:00,410
I mean one question I wanna ask you is.

586
00:28:00,410 --> 00:28:05,060
That 16 year old who was sitting on.

587
00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:09,157
That no one his mother was HIV positive not talking

588
00:28:09,237 --> 00:28:09,960
about it.

589
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,610
And still trying to be,

590
00:28:11,610 --> 00:28:14,634
you know, you're the manager of McDonald's.

591
00:28:14,634 --> 00:28:17,590
You're showing that kind of leadership and.

592
00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:21,708
Responsibility if you went back now you're 34 year old

593
00:28:21,785 --> 00:28:22,166
self.

594
00:28:22,166 --> 00:28:25,283
Would you say that guy if I could go back

595
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,867
and talk to that kid first thing?

596
00:28:27,867 --> 00:28:31,197
The first thing I would say is just going to

597
00:28:31,273 --> 00:28:34,527
get better because I was I did not think it

598
00:28:34,603 --> 00:28:36,419
was going to get better.

599
00:28:36,419 --> 00:28:39,190
That was what allowed me to.

600
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:42,935
Throw that temper tantrum. It wasn't me giving up,

601
00:28:42,935 --> 00:28:46,467
it was me living for it was me not having

602
00:28:46,553 --> 00:28:49,310
faith in deferred gratification.

603
00:28:49,310 --> 00:28:52,866
I wanted to. I did a cost benefit analysis and

604
00:28:52,944 --> 00:28:53,562
I would.

605
00:28:53,562 --> 00:28:56,545
I would say it. I mean I would say look

606
00:28:56,621 --> 00:29:00,368
up the benefits of me going out and selling drugs

607
00:29:00,445 --> 00:29:04,345
and having quick access to cash and capital and the

608
00:29:04,345 --> 00:29:08,091
ability to invest in my family and to make myself

609
00:29:08,167 --> 00:29:11,837
more safe in an environment where I did not feel

610
00:29:11,913 --> 00:29:15,659
safe was more important to me than the long-term.

611
00:29:15,659 --> 00:29:19,608
Hell, marry idea of me becoming someone who would be

612
00:29:19,684 --> 00:29:21,430
able to pull my family.

613
00:29:21,430 --> 00:29:23,957
Up by its bootstraps. So the first thing I would

614
00:29:24,010 --> 00:29:25,642
say is that it does get better.

615
00:29:25,642 --> 00:29:27,722
I mean, I have journals from back then.

616
00:29:27,722 --> 00:29:29,230
I used to. I kept a Journal,

617
00:29:29,230 --> 00:29:31,830
is just something that I always have always done.

618
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:34,248
It is always therapeutic to me and I like have

619
00:29:34,301 --> 00:29:36,666
notes that I've written in there where I say,

620
00:29:36,666 --> 00:29:38,330
like you know, if only I could,

621
00:29:38,330 --> 00:29:40,520
you know, get into law school.

622
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,990
An 90% of the Journal entry is about.

623
00:29:44,990 --> 00:29:47,636
Some beef I have with some guy that lives closer

624
00:29:47,691 --> 00:29:48,739
to me than my neck.

625
00:29:48,739 --> 00:29:51,855
My closest neighbor. Now I have Journal entries where I'm

626
00:29:51,910 --> 00:29:54,917
writing about some guy that robbed me for a significant

627
00:29:54,972 --> 00:29:57,651
amount of money who lived 16 houses down and roll

628
00:29:57,651 --> 00:30:00,461
home West Philadelphia. That was my life then and I

629
00:30:00,516 --> 00:30:01,618
think that you know,

630
00:30:01,618 --> 00:30:03,791
I never even imagined that there could.

631
00:30:03,791 --> 00:30:06,100
It could get better that I will be able to

632
00:30:06,155 --> 00:30:08,464
pay a mortgage that I would be able to do,

633
00:30:08,464 --> 00:30:09,986
you know, to go to college?

634
00:30:09,986 --> 00:30:11,507
I didn't even think that I.

635
00:30:11,507 --> 00:30:13,630
That joke was I would get.

636
00:30:13,630 --> 00:30:16,982
A recruitment letters based off my SAT scores to Harvard

637
00:30:17,042 --> 00:30:17,521
College.

638
00:30:17,521 --> 00:30:21,804
I thought Harvard College was like the Phoenix University version

639
00:30:21,870 --> 00:30:23,320
of Harvard University.

640
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,641
Like I I saw that and I'm like why are

641
00:30:25,703 --> 00:30:28,879
they sending me these fake invites and I would throw

642
00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:29,979
him in the trash.

643
00:30:29,979 --> 00:30:32,158
Where did you learn the journaling?

644
00:30:32,158 --> 00:30:36,517
An raising your consciousness or with therapist called Differentiation?

645
00:30:36,517 --> 00:30:39,847
Naming a feeling so that your larger than the feeling?

646
00:30:39,847 --> 00:30:42,797
Where did you learn how to do that middle school

647
00:30:42,858 --> 00:30:43,903
in middle school?

648
00:30:43,903 --> 00:30:46,566
We all kept journals and miss chievous way.

649
00:30:46,566 --> 00:30:48,746
We started keeping shadow journals.

650
00:30:48,746 --> 00:30:51,954
We kept journals that were in our school journals but

651
00:30:52,015 --> 00:30:54,860
they were ways for us to like flirt with girls.

652
00:30:54,860 --> 00:30:56,218
And we were right. Like,

653
00:30:56,218 --> 00:30:58,120
you know, provocative things like,

654
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,557
Oh, you know, I talked to such and such last

655
00:31:00,613 --> 00:31:00,945
night.

656
00:31:00,945 --> 00:31:02,140
I'm in love with her,

657
00:31:02,140 --> 00:31:04,639
her favorite song, and it just never stopped.

658
00:31:04,639 --> 00:31:07,627
It never stopped. It was always something that I mean.

659
00:31:07,627 --> 00:31:10,215
It's kind of social media has kind of taken the

660
00:31:10,270 --> 00:31:11,647
place of that for me now,

661
00:31:11,647 --> 00:31:14,202
but I always journaled in a way that I was

662
00:31:14,263 --> 00:31:17,122
always better at the written word then I was at

663
00:31:17,183 --> 00:31:17,730
speaking.

664
00:31:17,730 --> 00:31:20,793
And that was just something that I never stopped doing

665
00:31:20,850 --> 00:31:21,020
it.

666
00:31:21,020 --> 00:31:24,127
I've always realized it as something that allowed me to

667
00:31:24,184 --> 00:31:25,201
order my thoughts.

668
00:31:25,201 --> 00:31:27,989
I slept better at night when I wrote things down,

669
00:31:27,989 --> 00:31:29,829
and, uh, it never stopped Kevin.

670
00:31:29,829 --> 00:31:32,309
Can I grab onto that so so anybody who wants

671
00:31:32,365 --> 00:31:35,014
to go out there and follow you on social media?

672
00:31:35,014 --> 00:31:37,356
Though, it'll it'll be thought provoking.

673
00:31:37,356 --> 00:31:39,531
It'll be entertaining. It'll be funny.

674
00:31:39,531 --> 00:31:41,928
It'll make you cry. Can you speak to that?

675
00:31:41,928 --> 00:31:44,765
So are you. I've never never thought about it like

676
00:31:44,822 --> 00:31:45,106
that.

677
00:31:45,106 --> 00:31:47,113
Are you journaling on social media?

678
00:31:47,113 --> 00:31:48,340
Talk to me about that.

679
00:31:48,340 --> 00:31:52,599
Absolutely, absolutely, I'm journaling, uhm,

680
00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:55,154
I am when I'm not rolling,

681
00:31:55,154 --> 00:31:58,495
I'm Journal. Journaling on Facebook and on Twitter and I

682
00:31:58,555 --> 00:31:59,032
and I'm,

683
00:31:59,032 --> 00:32:01,657
you know, I have random thoughts that I think need

684
00:32:01,709 --> 00:32:02,654
to be fleshed out.

685
00:32:02,654 --> 00:32:05,003
The other thing is, is the one thing I really

686
00:32:05,056 --> 00:32:07,979
like about social media is that it sharpens your thought

687
00:32:08,031 --> 00:32:08,449
process.

688
00:32:08,449 --> 00:32:11,175
I could put a primitive thought or a generic thought

689
00:32:11,227 --> 00:32:12,485
out there and then here.

690
00:32:12,485 --> 00:32:14,503
Other viewpoints that make me sharper.

691
00:32:14,503 --> 00:32:17,644
So it's almost like it's it's replicating that middle school

692
00:32:17,697 --> 00:32:18,901
journaling that we had.

693
00:32:18,901 --> 00:32:21,417
We would ship and we had something I was calling

694
00:32:21,470 --> 00:32:22,885
to slam book and then slam.

695
00:32:22,885 --> 00:32:24,644
Book was a Journal that everyone.

696
00:32:24,644 --> 00:32:26,300
It was one Journal for everyone.

697
00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:28,619
And you would pass it around and one person would

698
00:32:28,666 --> 00:32:31,126
write on Monday and then the next day another person

699
00:32:31,174 --> 00:32:32,262
would write in the bed.

700
00:32:32,262 --> 00:32:34,411
And the thing about it was it was supposed to

701
00:32:34,458 --> 00:32:35,079
be anonymous.

702
00:32:35,079 --> 00:32:37,408
But you could see people would call people out on

703
00:32:37,455 --> 00:32:38,881
their stuff in that slam book.

704
00:32:38,881 --> 00:32:39,961
It was the way it was,

705
00:32:39,961 --> 00:32:42,637
a form of bullying. They will call it bullying nowadays,

706
00:32:42,637 --> 00:32:43,529
so did it? Did it?

707
00:32:43,529 --> 00:32:44,984
Did a teacher facilitate that?

708
00:32:44,984 --> 00:32:47,050
It's I mean, it's really this was this was a

709
00:32:47,097 --> 00:32:48,740
part of our Shadow Journal Network.

710
00:32:48,740 --> 00:32:51,620
It is brilliant. I mean when I reflect on like

711
00:32:51,682 --> 00:32:52,183
I wrote,

712
00:32:52,183 --> 00:32:54,335
I write sometimes about, you know,

713
00:32:54,335 --> 00:32:57,331
my experience with you know my mother had a very

714
00:32:57,393 --> 00:32:58,517
abusive boyfriend.

715
00:32:58,517 --> 00:33:01,623
After my father, I've wrote about that and what it

716
00:33:01,685 --> 00:33:04,604
does is it just gives me context so frequently.

717
00:33:04,604 --> 00:33:07,063
Yes, I'm journaling or I'm I'm reading,

718
00:33:07,063 --> 00:33:08,724
you know, I read my daily,

719
00:33:08,724 --> 00:33:11,245
New York Times, new Wall Street Journal,

720
00:33:11,245 --> 00:33:14,442
The New Yorker and I give my response and reaction.

721
00:33:14,442 --> 00:33:16,574
But it is a form of it's a form of

722
00:33:16,637 --> 00:33:17,578
therapy for me.

723
00:33:17,578 --> 00:33:19,730
And it's not. It's not as personal.

724
00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:21,932
As people would think it would be,

725
00:33:21,932 --> 00:33:25,252
it's not as personal as with my Journal entries used

726
00:33:25,316 --> 00:33:26,146
to look like,

727
00:33:26,146 --> 00:33:28,121
but I do open up a lot of a lot

728
00:33:28,185 --> 00:33:31,115
more than people typically do on social media,

729
00:33:31,115 --> 00:33:34,009
but I mean it's like listen as trial lawyers.

730
00:33:34,009 --> 00:33:35,644
We're keyed up, you know,

731
00:33:35,644 --> 00:33:39,167
crazy to begin with, and then you know you're carrying.

732
00:33:39,167 --> 00:33:42,857
You know, an enormously complex history that you know will

733
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,765
circle back to at some point.

734
00:33:44,765 --> 00:33:47,721
I guess what I'm hearing you say is like that.

735
00:33:47,721 --> 00:33:49,860
It's part of your Wellness regime.

736
00:33:49,860 --> 00:33:51,911
Uh, really is that. Is that fair?

737
00:33:51,911 --> 00:33:54,504
Absolutely absolutely. It's not essential,

738
00:33:54,504 --> 00:33:56,616
but I think that it is number one.

739
00:33:56,616 --> 00:33:58,304
It gives you. First of all,

740
00:33:58,304 --> 00:33:59,873
us all his trial lawyers.

741
00:33:59,873 --> 00:34:02,612
You know what it's like to lock yourself in a

742
00:34:02,673 --> 00:34:06,447
room doing nothing but trial lawyering for two weeks straight.

743
00:34:06,447 --> 00:34:08,378
Sometimes moving to it? I mean,

744
00:34:08,378 --> 00:34:10,549
we tried that case in Berks County.

745
00:34:10,549 --> 00:34:12,479
I lived in a hotel for a month.

746
00:34:12,479 --> 00:34:15,355
Didn't see my child or any of my family members

747
00:34:15,416 --> 00:34:16,762
or anything like that.

748
00:34:16,762 --> 00:34:18,089
And that can be very,

749
00:34:18,089 --> 00:34:21,044
very apprehensive. But then to be able to put out

750
00:34:21,105 --> 00:34:22,130
a little missive.

751
00:34:22,130 --> 00:34:24,489
To tell a little joke to all of my Facebook

752
00:34:24,544 --> 00:34:25,641
friends at one time,

753
00:34:25,641 --> 00:34:26,775
or to tell you know,

754
00:34:26,775 --> 00:34:29,251
a funny story about, let me tell you you know

755
00:34:29,306 --> 00:34:29,746
of this,

756
00:34:29,746 --> 00:34:32,682
this ironic situation that I found myself in today and

757
00:34:32,737 --> 00:34:35,292
maybe you guys will find it funny that that can

758
00:34:35,347 --> 00:34:38,011
be very very therapeutic when so when you were at

759
00:34:38,011 --> 00:34:40,786
the diese office. Now the listeners know you have a

760
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,561
past that includes a bunch of arrests and you will

761
00:34:43,615 --> 00:34:45,411
run in the streets as you put it.

762
00:34:45,411 --> 00:34:47,086
So you go to the diese office.

763
00:34:47,086 --> 00:34:49,571
Now you know you've had this incredible ride.

764
00:34:49,571 --> 00:34:52,758
You've graduated from Kutztown. You graduated temple also.

765
00:34:52,758 --> 00:34:54,000
You go to Diese Office.

766
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,540
And shortly after you get in there.

767
00:34:56,540 --> 00:34:59,734
One of your colleagues in the office,

768
00:34:59,734 --> 00:35:03,265
um, unlocked some expunge files of yours.

769
00:35:03,265 --> 00:35:08,880
And, basically, you know, publishes um your criminal past.

770
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,590
I want to know where were you?

771
00:35:11,590 --> 00:35:15,105
When you found out and what did that feel way

772
00:35:15,183 --> 00:35:16,277
can do to you?

773
00:35:16,277 --> 00:35:20,881
This leak happened. I started practicing law in November of

774
00:35:20,959 --> 00:35:21,349
2010.

775
00:35:21,349 --> 00:35:24,115
The leak occurred in April of 2011,

776
00:35:24,115 --> 00:35:27,504
so I was five months in as a lawyer and

777
00:35:27,591 --> 00:35:31,850
I knew something was wrong because I was in court

778
00:35:31,937 --> 00:35:36,630
and the district attorney's security detail showed up.

779
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:38,787
They showed up. They tap me on the shoulder.

780
00:35:38,787 --> 00:35:41,927
They said We're walking you back to the office and

781
00:35:41,989 --> 00:35:42,680
I was like.

782
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,878
Like this is the District Attorney,

783
00:35:44,878 --> 00:35:48,909
like his security detail that accompanies him everywhere he goes.

784
00:35:48,909 --> 00:35:51,260
And then I look and I'm like.

785
00:35:51,260 --> 00:35:54,430
Did you like my first thought was is?

786
00:35:54,430 --> 00:35:57,865
I'm getting fired because you guys have discovered like something

787
00:35:57,918 --> 00:36:00,613
I did wrong that I've never been in trouble before.

788
00:36:00,613 --> 00:36:03,391
Somebody is lying on me so that was just terrifying,

789
00:36:03,391 --> 00:36:04,543
but now I'm in court.

790
00:36:04,543 --> 00:36:06,821
and I mean this is earlier in the day court

791
00:36:06,874 --> 00:36:09,151
had just we only been in court for about an

792
00:36:09,204 --> 00:36:09,469
hour.

793
00:36:09,469 --> 00:36:12,081
We have three more hours of court in the security

794
00:36:12,135 --> 00:36:12,508
detail,

795
00:36:12,508 --> 00:36:14,185
is like seated right behind me.

796
00:36:14,185 --> 00:36:16,124
I'm like this is going to be really,

797
00:36:16,124 --> 00:36:18,273
really bad and I remember my supervisor.

798
00:36:18,273 --> 00:36:20,683
My supervisor came over and tap me and said no

799
00:36:20,736 --> 00:36:23,618
everything is OK because if they were firing you didn't

800
00:36:23,670 --> 00:36:24,980
took your files from you.

801
00:36:24,980 --> 00:36:27,882
Right now and then just took you out about Portland,

802
00:36:27,882 --> 00:36:30,491
so this is this is something you're going to be

803
00:36:30,547 --> 00:36:31,990
OK and I was like Alright.

804
00:36:31,990 --> 00:36:34,386
So then I walked over an A colleague in the

805
00:36:34,442 --> 00:36:35,166
Diese Office.

806
00:36:35,166 --> 00:36:38,317
Someone another young lawyer informed me that a lawyer in

807
00:36:38,373 --> 00:36:40,916
the office I come by asking about me like hey,

808
00:36:40,916 --> 00:36:43,622
has he ever done anything that you consider to be

809
00:36:43,677 --> 00:36:46,273
shady and Cork like one of my trial partners in

810
00:36:46,328 --> 00:36:47,488
the girl was like no,

811
00:36:47,488 --> 00:36:50,210
he's like he's like very honest and nice like why

812
00:36:50,266 --> 00:36:51,321
would you ask that?

813
00:36:51,321 --> 00:36:53,292
And it didn't have the context yet.

814
00:36:53,292 --> 00:36:54,990
So then I went into the office.

815
00:36:54,990 --> 00:36:56,959
With my boss and my boss told me hey,

816
00:36:56,959 --> 00:37:00,689
the newspaper has been asking questions about your criminal background,

817
00:37:00,689 --> 00:37:03,038
so that's why we wanted to make sure that you

818
00:37:03,090 --> 00:37:06,170
didn't get accosted or surprise question by any Reporter on

819
00:37:06,223 --> 00:37:07,580
your walk back from court.

820
00:37:07,580 --> 00:37:10,311
So that's why the security detail was there and then

821
00:37:10,364 --> 00:37:11,362
I mentioned I said,

822
00:37:11,362 --> 00:37:14,531
well, that's funny because lawyer be just asked lawyer a

823
00:37:14,588 --> 00:37:17,474
about whether or not I was doing anything tricky in

824
00:37:17,530 --> 00:37:17,870
court.

825
00:37:17,870 --> 00:37:21,657
And then the next day they told me that there

826
00:37:21,741 --> 00:37:24,855
was going to be an exposé front page,

827
00:37:24,855 --> 00:37:29,526
probably of the criminal DA being me and I think

828
00:37:29,623 --> 00:37:31,180
I slept an hour.

829
00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:33,797
Uhm, and then the press core set on the row

830
00:37:33,858 --> 00:37:35,380
behind me the entire day.

831
00:37:35,380 --> 00:37:37,960
I try cases they watched every case I did.

832
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,180
They watched every trial that I did.

833
00:37:40,180 --> 00:37:42,859
What did you do? Once you found out this was

834
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:44,320
coming for you did you?

835
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,344
Did they have somebody at the Diese Office who you

836
00:37:47,405 --> 00:37:49,945
could talk to about this and put it in the

837
00:37:50,006 --> 00:37:51,760
context you such a young guy?

838
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,035
And that's such extreme? Uh,

839
00:37:54,035 --> 00:37:56,485
such an extremely hostile spotlight.

840
00:37:56,485 --> 00:37:58,008
How did you handle it?

841
00:37:58,008 --> 00:38:01,968
I think it was something that the district attorneys office

842
00:38:02,036 --> 00:38:02,841
was used to.

843
00:38:02,841 --> 00:38:05,945
I think it was something like this is just the

844
00:38:06,012 --> 00:38:06,417
pilot,

845
00:38:06,417 --> 00:38:09,983
the political wars that go on with the political side

846
00:38:10,050 --> 00:38:10,588
of that.

847
00:38:10,588 --> 00:38:12,310
This was a political hit.

848
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:13,965
This was an illegal hit.

849
00:38:13,965 --> 00:38:17,229
So no, there was no formalized method of me being

850
00:38:17,296 --> 00:38:20,827
like counseled there was there was a town Hall called

851
00:38:20,893 --> 00:38:24,824
and all 505 hundred employees in Adeaze office were crowded

852
00:38:24,824 --> 00:38:28,041
into a town Hall. An it was addressed publicly.

853
00:38:28,041 --> 00:38:31,232
Like I hired this young man and at this time

854
00:38:31,304 --> 00:38:33,480
the article had become public.

855
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,205
But people had started talking around the office,

856
00:38:36,205 --> 00:38:38,648
so I remember I was in the trial division at

857
00:38:38,703 --> 00:38:39,203
the time,

858
00:38:39,203 --> 00:38:41,727
so I went into the elevator bank and there are

859
00:38:41,782 --> 00:38:44,800
100 lawyers in the elevator bank and I'm standing there

860
00:38:44,855 --> 00:38:47,105
by myself and people are like whispering,

861
00:38:47,105 --> 00:38:48,849
they don't know. It's me there.

862
00:38:48,849 --> 00:38:51,084
Like who is it? Who is it in there like,

863
00:38:51,084 --> 00:38:52,392
you know the black guy.

864
00:38:52,392 --> 00:38:54,698
Like you know he used to sell drugs and he

865
00:38:54,753 --> 00:38:57,004
got hurt at one time they found a gun and

866
00:38:57,059 --> 00:38:59,695
and you know he said Stop Snitching and I'm like

867
00:38:59,695 --> 00:39:02,802
standing there around all 100 of my colleagues talk about

868
00:39:02,856 --> 00:39:03,510
me and then.

869
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:06,242
Jump in a second to stop stop snitching.

870
00:39:06,242 --> 00:39:09,400
Part of this hatchet job when you was you would

871
00:39:09,468 --> 00:39:13,164
actually been interviewed years prior in a CNN piece on

872
00:39:13,231 --> 00:39:13,970
the street.

873
00:39:13,970 --> 00:39:17,415
Can you give the listeners a little flavor for that

874
00:39:17,482 --> 00:39:18,901
was part of this too?

875
00:39:18,901 --> 00:39:20,833
And how that came into play.

876
00:39:20,833 --> 00:39:24,129
So Anderson Cooper came to my Barber shop an they

877
00:39:24,196 --> 00:39:27,895
wanted someone who had the ability to argue both sides.

878
00:39:27,895 --> 00:39:32,500
They had a group of people who were arguing that.

879
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:35,973
People should cooperate like people should cooperate with the police,

880
00:39:35,973 --> 00:39:38,371
but then they went to the barbershop and I guess

881
00:39:38,421 --> 00:39:41,369
they were looking for young African American men that could

882
00:39:41,418 --> 00:39:43,167
explain the stop Snitching culture.

883
00:39:43,167 --> 00:39:45,237
How old are you at the time when you gave

884
00:39:45,288 --> 00:39:46,045
this interview?

885
00:39:46,045 --> 00:39:48,345
I was in law school right before I started law

886
00:39:48,395 --> 00:39:51,044
school and it was funny because I remembered saying I

887
00:39:51,094 --> 00:39:52,544
said to those guys like sure,

888
00:39:52,544 --> 00:39:54,653
I can argue that side like I can debate it

889
00:39:54,703 --> 00:39:56,762
like I've been on the debate team before.

890
00:39:56,762 --> 00:39:58,932
But like that's not how I feel about it and

891
00:39:58,982 --> 00:39:59,739
they were like,

892
00:39:59,739 --> 00:40:01,525
well, give me some more background.

893
00:40:01,525 --> 00:40:03,410
Did you go to court when you got shot?

894
00:40:03,410 --> 00:40:05,695
I said, why didn't I didn't know I didn't go

895
00:40:05,747 --> 00:40:07,046
to court when I got shot.

896
00:40:07,046 --> 00:40:09,842
Well, it's like, well tell us your perspective why you

897
00:40:09,893 --> 00:40:11,809
didn't go to court when you got shot.

898
00:40:11,809 --> 00:40:14,749
Little number one I never got subpoenaed because I didn't

899
00:40:14,801 --> 00:40:17,071
see the person who shot me and I didn't have

900
00:40:17,122 --> 00:40:18,773
any information to give to them.

901
00:40:18,773 --> 00:40:21,917
But nevertheless I can still explain the thought process that

902
00:40:21,968 --> 00:40:24,390
I was going through when I got shot and whether

903
00:40:24,442 --> 00:40:27,070
or not there would be retaliation or whether or not

904
00:40:27,070 --> 00:40:29,169
they would harm my brothers and sisters.

905
00:40:29,169 --> 00:40:32,250
So from there, uh, they offered me a free haircut.

906
00:40:32,250 --> 00:40:36,720
You argued inside will give you a free haircut.

907
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:39,491
All that all that, all that over for a free

908
00:40:39,555 --> 00:40:40,071
haircut.

909
00:40:40,071 --> 00:40:43,213
So I gave my perspective never knowing that I was

910
00:40:43,277 --> 00:40:44,559
gonna be a district,

911
00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:48,352
an assistant District Attorney and I gave the perspective of

912
00:40:48,415 --> 00:40:51,576
what a street with a street guy with believe about

913
00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:53,030
the truth some people.

914
00:40:53,030 --> 00:40:56,319
People's truth and that and I explained it and they

915
00:40:56,384 --> 00:40:56,900
said in,

916
00:40:56,900 --> 00:40:59,528
and that was a part of the article that I

917
00:40:59,592 --> 00:41:03,246
was an advocate for stop Snitching culture that you know,

918
00:41:03,246 --> 00:41:06,777
I wasn't I. The exact line was prosecutors are supposed

919
00:41:06,841 --> 00:41:08,575
to be above reproach and I.

920
00:41:08,575 --> 00:41:09,971
And now that I'm, uh,

921
00:41:09,971 --> 00:41:11,240
uh, a 10 years out.

922
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:14,691
That's the funniest line ever to address the idea that

923
00:41:14,755 --> 00:41:18,844
I shouldn't be a prosecutor because all prosecutors are supposed

924
00:41:18,908 --> 00:41:20,250
to be above reproach.

925
00:41:20,250 --> 00:41:23,740
Was this somebody inside the district attorneys office?

926
00:41:23,740 --> 00:41:26,621
We got this going, numerous people inside it wasn't,

927
00:41:26,621 --> 00:41:28,414
so there was essentially it was.

928
00:41:28,414 --> 00:41:31,039
It was a crew of homicide prosecutors and I know

929
00:41:31,093 --> 00:41:34,210
this because that positions were taken during a labor and

930
00:41:34,265 --> 00:41:37,600
employment case and those depositions became the topic up and

931
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,230
you want to talk about irony.

932
00:41:39,230 --> 00:41:42,872
I was the president of the Barristers Association of Philadelphia,

933
00:41:42,872 --> 00:41:46,318
which gives us a listers knows the African American Association

934
00:41:46,373 --> 00:41:48,944
right and I was the president which gave me the

935
00:41:48,998 --> 00:41:51,405
privilege to sit on the Judicial Commission,

936
00:41:51,405 --> 00:41:54,068
which means that I got to evaluate whether or not

937
00:41:54,123 --> 00:41:57,656
individuals were qualified to be judges in the Philadelphia Court

938
00:41:57,710 --> 00:41:58,580
of Common Pleas.

939
00:41:58,580 --> 00:42:01,120
In Philadelphia, Court of Municipal Court,

940
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,541
the appellate courts, and lo and behold,

941
00:42:03,541 --> 00:42:07,541
somebody came before the Judicial Commission and the city solicitor

942
00:42:07,601 --> 00:42:09,034
brought in all of these.

943
00:42:09,034 --> 00:42:12,637
Well, those topics came up in the district attorneys office,

944
00:42:12,637 --> 00:42:16,712
brought in all of their materials from their internal investigation,

945
00:42:16,712 --> 00:42:19,505
and I'm looking at all of the statements of all

946
00:42:19,564 --> 00:42:23,307
of the different people who admitted to going into confidential

947
00:42:23,367 --> 00:42:26,575
police files that had been expunged but were only kept

948
00:42:26,575 --> 00:42:29,410
for investigative purposes. An leaking them too.

949
00:42:29,410 --> 00:42:31,101
The media to embarrass me.

950
00:42:31,101 --> 00:42:33,668
That alone, right that experience alone,

951
00:42:33,668 --> 00:42:36,298
not to mention how you got to law school.

952
00:42:36,298 --> 00:42:39,815
Just having to be in the media spotlight having to

953
00:42:39,885 --> 00:42:43,050
go through the hell of that kind of scrutiny.

954
00:42:43,050 --> 00:42:47,886
That alone will change your perspective so you know your

955
00:42:47,972 --> 00:42:49,440
education now is.

956
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,275
Mindboggling to Maine at a young age that you went

957
00:42:52,332 --> 00:42:53,296
through all this,

958
00:42:53,296 --> 00:42:55,519
and I want to give it back to the place

959
00:42:55,576 --> 00:42:56,146
where you,

960
00:42:56,146 --> 00:42:59,154
because we kind of got sidetracked in the place where

961
00:42:59,211 --> 00:42:59,722
you were,

962
00:42:59,722 --> 00:43:03,310
you were shot right. And that had to Ben as

963
00:43:03,393 --> 00:43:04,728
I understand it,

964
00:43:04,728 --> 00:43:07,426
for you a real. Crossroads,

965
00:43:07,426 --> 00:43:11,242
in a 20 point, tell us what happened after that

966
00:43:11,323 --> 00:43:11,810
point.

967
00:43:11,810 --> 00:43:15,078
So again, um. The line I we left off is

968
00:43:15,162 --> 00:43:19,604
like the juxtaposition for me is that in January 2006

969
00:43:19,687 --> 00:43:21,531
I was shot five times.

970
00:43:21,531 --> 00:43:24,580
In August 2007 I started my 1L year at temple

971
00:43:24,648 --> 00:43:24,919
law,

972
00:43:24,919 --> 00:43:28,439
so that's you know, that's less than that's less than

973
00:43:28,506 --> 00:43:29,170
two years.

974
00:43:29,170 --> 00:43:31,940
What it did was is at that time it required

975
00:43:32,004 --> 00:43:34,709
me to make enough to make A to analyze the

976
00:43:34,773 --> 00:43:37,543
situation that I had never analyzed before,

977
00:43:37,543 --> 00:43:40,586
and I think most people don't have to make this

978
00:43:40,651 --> 00:43:42,528
analysis until later in life.

979
00:43:42,528 --> 00:43:45,532
My father, my mother, was in late term breast,

980
00:43:45,532 --> 00:43:48,536
can't had late term, late stage breast cancer,

981
00:43:48,536 --> 00:43:51,284
and my father had early stage lung cancer.

982
00:43:51,284 --> 00:43:53,137
Well, it was an early stage.

983
00:43:53,137 --> 00:43:54,671
It was also late stage,

984
00:43:54,671 --> 00:43:56,653
but it was a recent diagnosis.

985
00:43:56,653 --> 00:43:59,180
So now I'm laying on a Gurney.

986
00:43:59,180 --> 00:44:02,930
With bullets having riddled my body.

987
00:44:02,930 --> 00:44:06,150
Uh, with my brothers and sisters.

988
00:44:06,150 --> 00:44:10,651
Standing there in despair trying to figure out if I'm

989
00:44:10,736 --> 00:44:12,010
going to be OK.

990
00:44:12,010 --> 00:44:15,848
An realizing that with both of my with all four

991
00:44:15,930 --> 00:44:19,278
of my grandparents having predeceased me,

992
00:44:19,278 --> 00:44:23,731
that if I don't. Pretty much stop what I'm doing

993
00:44:23,823 --> 00:44:28,647
and start moving in the right direction that I will.

994
00:44:28,647 --> 00:44:32,467
Um, that my family won't won't survive this,

995
00:44:32,467 --> 00:44:35,180
we won't make it through.

996
00:44:35,180 --> 00:44:40,099
So after getting shot, I recognize that my that the

997
00:44:40,196 --> 00:44:45,404
threats are my mortality was so significant that in my

998
00:44:45,501 --> 00:44:47,430
family's well being.

999
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:50,301
Really depended upon my ability to do well.

1000
00:44:50,301 --> 00:44:52,258
If I didn't turn this around,

1001
00:44:52,258 --> 00:44:54,606
no one was going to turn it around.

1002
00:44:54,606 --> 00:44:57,590
Uhm, I was at the time my brothers were still

1003
00:44:57,656 --> 00:44:58,651
in high school.

1004
00:44:58,651 --> 00:45:01,000
My sister was still in high school.

1005
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,113
If I didn't turn it around then it wasn't going

1006
00:45:04,179 --> 00:45:05,371
to turn around me.

1007
00:45:05,371 --> 00:45:09,267
What you're identifying is it's like a threat of leadership

1008
00:45:09,333 --> 00:45:10,786
that runs through you.

1009
00:45:10,786 --> 00:45:14,113
In that case, it was with regard to your siblings.

1010
00:45:14,113 --> 00:45:17,440
I guess a combination of leadership and motivation.

1011
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:22,420
Um, an and in your young career you you uhm?

1012
00:45:22,420 --> 00:45:24,894
Yeah, you've had leadership positions.

1013
00:45:24,894 --> 00:45:27,495
You lead the barristers in Philadelphia.

1014
00:45:27,495 --> 00:45:31,004
Can you talk about? Where that comes from,

1015
00:45:31,004 --> 00:45:32,698
if you can identify it,

1016
00:45:32,698 --> 00:45:35,099
where does that come from in you?

1017
00:45:35,099 --> 00:45:37,210
And um, how do you?

1018
00:45:37,210 --> 00:45:40,430
How do you harness it?

1019
00:45:40,430 --> 00:45:43,936
So some of it comes specifically from the fact that

1020
00:45:44,005 --> 00:45:45,792
I'm just the oldest child.

1021
00:45:45,792 --> 00:45:48,508
I mean, I'm my dad was a single father.

1022
00:45:48,508 --> 00:45:51,630
Um, an there was more of a partnership there.

1023
00:45:51,630 --> 00:45:54,536
I was just his nickname for me was old man

1024
00:45:54,605 --> 00:45:55,228
like hey,

1025
00:45:55,228 --> 00:45:56,925
what's going on old man?

1026
00:45:56,925 --> 00:46:00,012
And that I think that came from me growing up

1027
00:46:00,081 --> 00:46:03,305
very quickly and having a partnership with him.

1028
00:46:03,305 --> 00:46:06,342
One of the jokes about my my being a manager

1029
00:46:06,412 --> 00:46:07,378
at McDonald's.

1030
00:46:07,378 --> 00:46:10,025
My dad lost his job when I was about 17

1031
00:46:10,093 --> 00:46:10,840
and I said.

1032
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,132
Uh, I've got some hiring capabilities over here for an

1033
00:46:14,192 --> 00:46:14,802
overnight,

1034
00:46:14,802 --> 00:46:17,924
uh, an overnight maintenance man job that you know,

1035
00:46:17,924 --> 00:46:19,965
the line cooks and the cashier's.

1036
00:46:19,965 --> 00:46:21,886
They don't make any real money,

1037
00:46:21,886 --> 00:46:25,355
but the overnight guys that do maintenance they make they

1038
00:46:25,415 --> 00:46:26,389
make good money.

1039
00:46:26,389 --> 00:46:29,450
Would you like me to be your boss day?

1040
00:46:29,450 --> 00:46:31,910
That was real. That happened with me.

1041
00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:36,140
Um, so early on I understood that.

1042
00:46:36,140 --> 00:46:40,993
My access to information to opportunity was directly related to

1043
00:46:41,070 --> 00:46:45,924
the amount of access to opportunity information my family would

1044
00:46:46,001 --> 00:46:46,386
have.

1045
00:46:46,386 --> 00:46:48,990
Kevin. I wanted to ask you.

1046
00:46:48,990 --> 00:46:54,419
Weather And this draws upon your experience with what happened

1047
00:46:54,506 --> 00:46:58,534
at the diese office when your past was leaked.

1048
00:46:58,534 --> 00:47:02,197
And also what probably you know was the matic for

1049
00:47:02,271 --> 00:47:04,140
a long time in your life.

1050
00:47:04,140 --> 00:47:07,260
Does that had to create some level of rage?

1051
00:47:07,260 --> 00:47:10,997
You are an incredibly measured Gaya na Nana kind and

1052
00:47:11,069 --> 00:47:12,650
humble thoughtful guy,

1053
00:47:12,650 --> 00:47:16,077
but is there some either rage or you know during

1054
00:47:16,148 --> 00:47:20,074
coronavirus were all locked in and everyone is seems to

1055
00:47:20,146 --> 00:47:23,501
be watching the last dance you know and you can

1056
00:47:23,501 --> 00:47:26,825
see it doesn't take much to see the Jordan you

1057
00:47:26,898 --> 00:47:27,259
know,

1058
00:47:27,259 --> 00:47:29,458
largely fed off of the haters,

1059
00:47:29,458 --> 00:47:31,798
right? So can you speak to that?

1060
00:47:31,798 --> 00:47:35,880
Does that motivate you in some way?

1061
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:41,840
So it gives me my approach to the style of.

1062
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:46,911
The best way to describe it,

1063
00:47:46,911 --> 00:47:50,706
I think actions will describe how I addressed it.

1064
00:47:50,706 --> 00:47:55,314
The newspaper article where they leaked my information in an

1065
00:47:55,391 --> 00:47:57,157
attempt to be unbiased.

1066
00:47:57,157 --> 00:48:01,027
The reporters sat on the front row and watched me,

1067
00:48:01,027 --> 00:48:05,164
especially when every case and in some twisted form of

1068
00:48:05,241 --> 00:48:09,072
Karma the judge commented during one of my trials.

1069
00:48:09,072 --> 00:48:12,639
That and this is just the way the world works.

1070
00:48:12,639 --> 00:48:14,840
One of my cases that day was.

1071
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,743
In my neighborhood that I grew up in,

1072
00:48:17,743 --> 00:48:21,294
and one of the fat patterns required be if the

1073
00:48:21,371 --> 00:48:25,154
prosecutor order police Newton neighborhood very,

1074
00:48:25,154 --> 00:48:28,808
very well, then that that that was the issue in

1075
00:48:28,885 --> 00:48:29,585
the case.

1076
00:48:29,585 --> 00:48:33,662
So that day I just eviscerated three witness is based

1077
00:48:33,739 --> 00:48:37,817
on the fact that I knew that neighborhood better than

1078
00:48:37,893 --> 00:48:40,663
the individuals who were testifying,

1079
00:48:40,663 --> 00:48:45,170
and the judge said it's remarkable the prosecutor knows the

1080
00:48:45,247 --> 00:48:46,240
neighborhood.

1081
00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:49,787
Better than the witnesses and that was wild.

1082
00:48:49,787 --> 00:48:53,100
The reporters were watching me.

1083
00:48:53,100 --> 00:48:55,892
In court trying to write about how I was a

1084
00:48:55,959 --> 00:48:56,956
patronage hire.

1085
00:48:56,956 --> 00:48:59,963
A hack, you know, all of those sorts of things

1086
00:49:00,029 --> 00:49:00,290
and.

1087
00:49:02,340 --> 00:49:04,360
You know, that's one of those.

1088
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,974
God works in mysterious ways because now in the article

1089
00:49:08,039 --> 00:49:11,390
the The Reporter goes to the people who are leaking

1090
00:49:11,456 --> 00:49:12,047
and says,

1091
00:49:12,047 --> 00:49:16,040
well, I watch them in court and everybody loved them.

1092
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,532
In the prosecutor says, So what?

1093
00:49:18,532 --> 00:49:20,571
He's a superstar in court.

1094
00:49:20,571 --> 00:49:24,760
Prosecutors are supposed to be beyond reproach.

1095
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,929
And I highlighted that that,

1096
00:49:26,929 --> 00:49:29,397
uh, that passage in the article.

1097
00:49:29,397 --> 00:49:33,277
That's a quote. It's a director who that's a direct

1098
00:49:33,353 --> 00:49:33,810
quote.

1099
00:49:33,810 --> 00:49:38,192
I highlighted that from the from the source prosecutor air

1100
00:49:38,267 --> 00:49:41,289
quotes source prosecutor gave that cool.

1101
00:49:41,289 --> 00:49:44,546
I highlighted it. Then I blew it up and put

1102
00:49:44,622 --> 00:49:47,197
it on the front door of my office.

1103
00:49:47,197 --> 00:49:49,890
Kevin Hart and superstar prosecutor.

1104
00:49:49,890 --> 00:49:51,834
So even when they were hated was so when they

1105
00:49:51,877 --> 00:49:53,735
are walking by and see that in your office,

1106
00:49:53,735 --> 00:49:55,231
Yeah but it was on the front door.

1107
00:49:55,231 --> 00:49:57,171
If I close my office door was seated and then

1108
00:49:57,214 --> 00:49:59,154
one of my supervisors came to me and said you

1109
00:49:59,197 --> 00:50:00,102
gotta take that down.

1110
00:50:00,102 --> 00:50:01,555
I set fire to people that did it.

1111
00:50:01,555 --> 00:50:03,645
That said it. So good,

1112
00:50:03,645 --> 00:50:07,459
so good at it and I'll take it down and

1113
00:50:07,557 --> 00:50:12,153
it's just like the levels of irony in the whole

1114
00:50:12,251 --> 00:50:13,620
thing or just.

1115
00:50:13,620 --> 00:50:16,654
It is too much. Home to deal with the sort

1116
00:50:16,726 --> 00:50:20,266
of things that have happened to me because if you

1117
00:50:20,338 --> 00:50:23,878
are guided by a core belief in principle and it's

1118
00:50:23,878 --> 00:50:26,833
funny in the article you you re sent earlier that

1119
00:50:26,894 --> 00:50:30,211
we reviewed about grit and study on grit and describing

1120
00:50:30,271 --> 00:50:32,503
it as a fire in the belly of a mentor

1121
00:50:32,503 --> 00:50:35,172
who said the quote one day that I adopted as

1122
00:50:35,233 --> 00:50:37,356
my own and it's it's it used to be.

1123
00:50:37,356 --> 00:50:40,139
He said that you know he was the first African

1124
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,406
American partner at a large law firm in Philadelphia.

1125
00:50:43,406 --> 00:50:45,622
He said he put it on his desk at work

1126
00:50:45,682 --> 00:50:46,880
so he will remember.

1127
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:48,236
Every day when he, uh,

1128
00:50:48,236 --> 00:50:49,651
like right at his desk,

1129
00:50:49,651 --> 00:50:52,187
right where his computer was in the quote,

1130
00:50:52,187 --> 00:50:55,930
is success is not the result of spontaneous combustion.

1131
00:50:55,930 --> 00:50:59,150
You must set yourself on fire.

1132
00:50:59,150 --> 00:51:03,256
And. Compare, that was what I read in that article

1133
00:51:03,338 --> 00:51:07,198
that has been a guiding quote for me that every

1134
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:08,923
morning you have to,

1135
00:51:08,923 --> 00:51:11,687
you know, grab up the the the Cup of your

1136
00:51:11,754 --> 00:51:14,990
pants and light a match and just set yourself on

1137
00:51:15,057 --> 00:51:15,529
flames.

1138
00:51:15,529 --> 00:51:17,531
If you want to be successful.

1139
00:51:17,531 --> 00:51:19,466
And that's a deliberate act.

1140
00:51:19,466 --> 00:51:21,426
So with. The irony of everything.

1141
00:51:21,426 --> 00:51:24,295
My guiding principle has been that I'm going to be

1142
00:51:24,353 --> 00:51:28,369
successful because I'm being intentional about being successful in all

1143
00:51:28,427 --> 00:51:31,468
of these distractions have nothing to do it like with

1144
00:51:31,468 --> 00:51:33,787
those people tried to do to me to get me

1145
00:51:33,845 --> 00:51:35,120
fired to embarrass me.

1146
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,461
It those are tangents. Those are outliers that has nothing

1147
00:51:38,519 --> 00:51:41,053
to do with my core principles of being fair.

1148
00:51:41,053 --> 00:51:43,792
Treating people how they deserve to be treated.

1149
00:51:43,792 --> 00:51:45,846
Listening to people, loving people.

1150
00:51:45,846 --> 00:51:49,420
Those things are the things that will make sure that.

1151
00:51:49,420 --> 00:51:52,308
I stay centered so that gives me the ability not

1152
00:51:52,368 --> 00:51:53,270
to be outraged.

1153
00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:55,922
I didn't know how to deal with the with this

1154
00:51:55,983 --> 00:51:56,706
nervousness.

1155
00:51:56,706 --> 00:52:00,024
I remember waking up at 4:00 AM and check inphilly.com,

1156
00:52:00,024 --> 00:52:02,571
which is where they publish the inquiring,

1157
00:52:02,571 --> 00:52:04,170
a Daily News that's there.

1158
00:52:04,170 --> 00:52:07,902
That's their website for the local newspapers in Philadelphia,

1159
00:52:07,902 --> 00:52:10,721
and I remember waking up at 4:00 o'clock in the

1160
00:52:10,781 --> 00:52:12,760
morning and reading that article,

1161
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:14,951
and I don't know if you've ever had,

1162
00:52:14,951 --> 00:52:18,009
like, uh, an event where you're so nervous that you

1163
00:52:18,069 --> 00:52:19,987
feel like your chest is hurting.

1164
00:52:19,987 --> 00:52:22,178
Like I'm having a heart attack like,

1165
00:52:22,178 --> 00:52:25,248
that's how. That's how much angst was built up inside

1166
00:52:25,305 --> 00:52:27,622
of me and I got a text message that like

1167
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,460
it's 4:30 in the morning and I got text messages

1168
00:52:30,460 --> 00:52:33,408
from friends who who cared about me and they were.

1169
00:52:33,408 --> 00:52:35,855
I mean they had been waiting up with me to

1170
00:52:35,913 --> 00:52:38,534
see what how bad this article was going to be

1171
00:52:38,592 --> 00:52:41,039
in the first text message I got was like I

1172
00:52:41,039 --> 00:52:44,160
don't see anything wrong. This doesn't seem this all.

1173
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,038
These are all things we all knew about you like

1174
00:52:47,099 --> 00:52:49,977
this is this is pretty much a good article like

1175
00:52:50,038 --> 00:52:53,100
they called you a superstar and I just remembered.

1176
00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:54,880
Having that feeling like I didn't,

1177
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:55,795
if it was it was.

1178
00:52:55,795 --> 00:52:58,561
I supposed to be outraged when most people didn't even

1179
00:52:58,612 --> 00:53:01,275
didn't even consider it a hit piece that people that

1180
00:53:01,326 --> 00:53:03,119
loved me and I took away from that.

1181
00:53:03,119 --> 00:53:05,782
That if you have character and people believe in you

1182
00:53:05,833 --> 00:53:08,240
and they know that you're going to do the right

1183
00:53:08,291 --> 00:53:10,595
thing and you're going to try your best to do

1184
00:53:10,595 --> 00:53:12,950
the right thing all the time.

1185
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:16,990
Forget what behaviors that it doesn't.

1186
00:53:16,990 --> 00:53:20,911
This is part of our navakas about emotional intelligence and

1187
00:53:20,977 --> 00:53:22,480
emotional intelligence.

1188
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,805
Includes, you know self regulation.

1189
00:53:24,805 --> 00:53:26,970
How do you handle things?

1190
00:53:26,970 --> 00:53:29,084
The kind of inequities, injustices,

1191
00:53:29,084 --> 00:53:31,745
insults and it? And when I look at your story

1192
00:53:31,804 --> 00:53:34,525
and I read a couple of pieces about you taking

1193
00:53:34,584 --> 00:53:37,541
you back down to Kutztown where you were a student

1194
00:53:37,541 --> 00:53:38,950
leader. An if I recall,

1195
00:53:38,950 --> 00:53:40,888
make sure I get the story right.

1196
00:53:40,888 --> 00:53:44,315
There was a period where there was enormous racial tension

1197
00:53:44,374 --> 00:53:47,505
at Kutztown and there was a Republican from Philly so

1198
00:53:47,565 --> 00:53:50,696
you could correct them in Tillmans cuts down down the

1199
00:53:50,696 --> 00:53:53,397
town. He's from the East from the West coast.

1200
00:53:53,397 --> 00:53:55,922
So right. I know how to say school called,

1201
00:53:55,922 --> 00:53:58,330
but the other stuff I don't know to say,

1202
00:53:58,330 --> 00:54:00,609
alright? So there was, as I understand it,

1203
00:54:00,609 --> 00:54:03,622
there was a young Republican group held what they called

1204
00:54:03,676 --> 00:54:05,398
an affirmative action bake sale,

1205
00:54:05,398 --> 00:54:06,835
and they charged a dollar.

1206
00:54:06,835 --> 00:54:09,640
The cookies were a dollar if you're white.

1207
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:13,013
$0.25 if you were um African American man in free.

1208
00:54:13,013 --> 00:54:16,312
If you're an African American woman is I get that

1209
00:54:16,379 --> 00:54:16,783
right.

1210
00:54:16,783 --> 00:54:18,370
It was a sliding scale.

1211
00:54:18,370 --> 00:54:20,883
A dollar for White. $0.75 for Asians,

1212
00:54:20,883 --> 00:54:23,528
50 Cent for Hispanics. $0.25 for black,

1213
00:54:23,528 --> 00:54:27,750
so 25 cent discount. If you were a woman.

1214
00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:30,660
In our red dad and.

1215
00:54:30,660 --> 00:54:34,370
I felt enraged. Read now I feel rage Reno right

1216
00:54:34,449 --> 00:54:35,080
now and.

1217
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,374
Think about all the people that have gone before is

1218
00:54:38,439 --> 00:54:41,345
sort of paved that you know we stand on their

1219
00:54:41,410 --> 00:54:42,056
shoulders,

1220
00:54:42,056 --> 00:54:45,704
folks. That learned how to channel their feelings right?

1221
00:54:45,704 --> 00:54:48,668
How did you channel your feelings and do it in

1222
00:54:48,732 --> 00:54:51,954
a way that you became its starting sound like from

1223
00:54:52,018 --> 00:54:55,240
this podcast you are a leader long before you went

1224
00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:57,544
to as they call it in Pennsylvania,

1225
00:54:57,544 --> 00:55:01,867
Kutztown. What what was that moment for you like and

1226
00:55:01,950 --> 00:55:03,031
what is that?

1227
00:55:03,031 --> 00:55:08,440
What does that do for the way you saw yourself?

1228
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,268
So the crazy thing about that is I was amused

1229
00:55:11,331 --> 00:55:12,274
by it at first,

1230
00:55:12,274 --> 00:55:14,923
so I just looked at it like these guys are

1231
00:55:14,986 --> 00:55:15,428
idiots.

1232
00:55:15,428 --> 00:55:18,210
I don't pay that sort of stuff in your mind,

1233
00:55:18,210 --> 00:55:20,884
but that was that is an example of when you

1234
00:55:20,947 --> 00:55:24,865
don't become proximate to the emotional feelings of others when

1235
00:55:24,927 --> 00:55:28,970
you don't become proximate and allow yourself to imagine yourself

1236
00:55:28,970 --> 00:55:32,248
in someone else's shoes. That creates a big problem.

1237
00:55:32,248 --> 00:55:36,076
And what happened was is while it wasn't particularly hurtful

1238
00:55:36,139 --> 00:55:36,515
to me,

1239
00:55:36,515 --> 00:55:39,050
I was on full scholarship with a 3.8 GPA.

1240
00:55:39,050 --> 00:55:40,800
That doesn't apply to me.

1241
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,839
They were screaming at the black women hey girl come

1242
00:55:44,917 --> 00:55:46,470
get you free Cookie.

1243
00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:49,640
At a place where those young ladies this was in

1244
00:55:49,708 --> 00:55:51,529
the student union building,

1245
00:55:51,529 --> 00:55:55,035
the young ladies that they were screaming at some of

1246
00:55:55,103 --> 00:55:57,800
them had set up the Black History Month.

1247
00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:59,528
As it was during February,

1248
00:55:59,528 --> 00:56:02,779
some of them had set up the Black History Month

1249
00:56:02,848 --> 00:56:06,583
like montage that was in the student union building in

1250
00:56:06,652 --> 00:56:07,690
the bake sales.

1251
00:56:07,690 --> 00:56:11,942
Table. Was in front of the Black History Month montage.

1252
00:56:11,942 --> 00:56:15,005
So like these people are screaming that at them and

1253
00:56:15,065 --> 00:56:17,408
like Rosa Parks is over their shoulder.

1254
00:56:17,408 --> 00:56:20,930
She's so it was. It was much more intellectually.

1255
00:56:20,930 --> 00:56:23,244
Uh, like it was easy for me as somebody who

1256
00:56:23,298 --> 00:56:24,428
hasn't replied to me,

1257
00:56:24,428 --> 00:56:25,859
let them idiots be idiots.

1258
00:56:25,859 --> 00:56:28,045
But then I started seeing my my I was the

1259
00:56:28,099 --> 00:56:30,925
vice president of the black student union at the time

1260
00:56:30,978 --> 00:56:34,391
and I essentially started seeing my constituents lose sleep over

1261
00:56:34,391 --> 00:56:36,526
this and that was when you know we had a

1262
00:56:36,580 --> 00:56:38,982
big open town Hall in the worst part about it

1263
00:56:39,036 --> 00:56:41,598
was that the school made it about black kids not

1264
00:56:41,598 --> 00:56:45,441
understanding affirmative action. That's what that's what they took away

1265
00:56:45,495 --> 00:56:48,964
that we didn't understand First Amendment rights and affirmative.

1266
00:56:48,964 --> 00:56:51,190
That's what that's what the takeaway was.

1267
00:56:51,190 --> 00:56:54,188
So we sat. Through a 2 hour long panel discussion

1268
00:56:54,250 --> 00:56:58,472
between people explained debating the policies of affirmative action,

1269
00:56:58,472 --> 00:57:01,569
and you know whether or not this was intentional.

1270
00:57:01,569 --> 00:57:03,304
We knew it was intentional.

1271
00:57:03,304 --> 00:57:05,224
They were screaming hey, girl,

1272
00:57:05,224 --> 00:57:08,279
come get your free cookie to students as they are

1273
00:57:08,341 --> 00:57:12,455
walking through the through the student union building and they're

1274
00:57:12,517 --> 00:57:15,011
only giving free cookies to black women.

1275
00:57:15,011 --> 00:57:19,100
So this is intentional racial harassment of black women.

1276
00:57:19,100 --> 00:57:21,618
And I stood up in the middle of the meeting.

1277
00:57:21,618 --> 00:57:24,209
and I say, listen, I don't know where you guys

1278
00:57:24,265 --> 00:57:27,645
get that were too dumb to understand what affirmative action

1279
00:57:27,701 --> 00:57:29,954
diversity in First Amendment rights are.

1280
00:57:29,954 --> 00:57:33,049
This is targeted racial harassment that is leading to a

1281
00:57:33,105 --> 00:57:36,763
significant significant portion of your student body that have 18

1282
00:57:36,820 --> 00:57:39,352
credits a semester to not be able to succeed.

1283
00:57:39,352 --> 00:57:41,366
So if you care about your students,

1284
00:57:41,366 --> 00:57:44,992
can succeeding here in students from Philadelphia coming up here

1285
00:57:45,048 --> 00:57:45,898
to be educated,

1286
00:57:45,898 --> 00:57:48,820
please stop this racial discrimination.

1287
00:57:48,820 --> 00:57:53,777
Ann Would it did was it was the first time

1288
00:57:53,895 --> 00:57:56,610
that I was tasked with?

1289
00:57:56,610 --> 00:58:00,612
Being offended in an instance where as I initially described

1290
00:58:00,678 --> 00:58:01,612
when I saw it,

1291
00:58:01,612 --> 00:58:03,783
I was like, forget those idiots.

1292
00:58:03,783 --> 00:58:07,464
It's that didn't. It didn't have an emotional affect on

1293
00:58:07,531 --> 00:58:07,732
me,

1294
00:58:07,732 --> 00:58:10,797
but I had to sit down and survey in understand

1295
00:58:10,864 --> 00:58:13,063
as the leader of an organization,

1296
00:58:13,063 --> 00:58:16,575
what how this was affecting people that I cared about

1297
00:58:16,641 --> 00:58:19,954
and how is it affecting their lives and their well

1298
00:58:20,020 --> 00:58:22,803
being and how they I didn't feel harassed.

1299
00:58:22,803 --> 00:58:25,962
They felt harassed and that was the first time I

1300
00:58:26,028 --> 00:58:26,620
had ever.

1301
00:58:26,620 --> 00:58:29,512
Had an opportunity to advocate for a group in Mass

1302
00:58:29,570 --> 00:58:32,520
in the response time after I made that statement in

1303
00:58:32,578 --> 00:58:33,156
my speech,

1304
00:58:33,156 --> 00:58:35,851
the entire room stood up and started clapping.

1305
00:58:35,851 --> 00:58:37,801
CNN ran over, I mean just got it,

1306
00:58:37,801 --> 00:58:39,119
got crazy and I I had.

1307
00:58:39,119 --> 00:58:41,150
I don't think I ever felt.

1308
00:58:41,150 --> 00:58:44,593
More valuable. In a moment prior to that,

1309
00:58:44,593 --> 00:58:47,460
for something that I had done intellectually,

1310
00:58:47,460 --> 00:58:50,228
I had felt valuable in the streets as like a

1311
00:58:50,291 --> 00:58:53,437
drug dealer and and having like that sort of power

1312
00:58:53,500 --> 00:58:54,129
to impose,

1313
00:58:54,129 --> 00:58:56,283
you know. You know to be able to have a

1314
00:58:56,339 --> 00:58:58,990
block and tell people who could be out there who

1315
00:58:59,046 --> 00:59:00,482
could not felt that power,

1316
00:59:00,482 --> 00:59:01,980
and that and that worthiness.

1317
00:59:01,980 --> 00:59:04,404
And this was the first time I'd felt that worthy

1318
00:59:04,455 --> 00:59:06,374
for my intellectual pursuits that day.

1319
00:59:06,374 --> 00:59:10,100
That was the most worthy I'd ever felt intellectually.

1320
00:59:10,100 --> 00:59:13,512
Can I can I can I ask you to see

1321
00:59:13,618 --> 00:59:16,710
if you can find a connection?

1322
00:59:16,710 --> 00:59:19,734
You know, in a relatively short period of time after

1323
00:59:19,792 --> 00:59:20,083
that,

1324
00:59:20,083 --> 00:59:24,330
you were the president of Barristers Association in Philadelphia.

1325
00:59:24,330 --> 00:59:29,014
Can you talk to whether that impacted both your leadership

1326
00:59:29,095 --> 00:59:31,195
style with the barristers?

1327
00:59:31,195 --> 00:59:33,350
and I want you to speak to?

1328
00:59:33,350 --> 00:59:36,244
What do we need to do better in the law

1329
00:59:36,319 --> 00:59:40,326
to address the ridiculous disparities that that exist?

1330
00:59:40,326 --> 00:59:44,728
You know, we've had this conversation an advocate less than

1331
00:59:44,803 --> 00:59:44,952
5%

1332
00:59:44,952 --> 00:59:47,375
of the attorneys across America,

1333
00:59:47,375 --> 00:59:52,427
African American. And we've also had the conversation that diversity

1334
00:59:52,501 --> 00:59:53,764
just makes sense,

1335
00:59:53,764 --> 00:59:55,820
right? For no other reason.

1336
00:59:55,820 --> 00:59:59,418
If you don't want to get into anything but better

1337
00:59:59,491 --> 01:00:03,750
solutions come from more diverse group of problem solvers.

1338
01:00:03,750 --> 01:00:06,418
Period full stop. So can you speak to what all

1339
01:00:06,476 --> 01:00:09,782
that meant you leadership with barristers and where we go

1340
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:10,420
from here?

1341
01:00:10,420 --> 01:00:12,985
What would it taught me was as when I was

1342
01:00:13,048 --> 01:00:15,363
the president of black student union,

1343
01:00:15,363 --> 01:00:18,718
because now you understand when you're the leader of a

1344
01:00:18,780 --> 01:00:23,004
diverse group Asian African American Hispanic LGB Tikku people bring

1345
01:00:23,066 --> 01:00:26,545
things to you because they think that it's your problem.

1346
01:00:26,545 --> 01:00:30,421
So if there's if black lawyers aren't getting hired frequently

1347
01:00:30,483 --> 01:00:31,796
enough automatically,

1348
01:00:31,796 --> 01:00:34,206
the barristers have to be apart of it.

1349
01:00:34,206 --> 01:00:36,739
Well, I'm a black lawyer that has a job,

1350
01:00:36,739 --> 01:00:39,087
why? Why not? Why would I be worried?

1351
01:00:39,087 --> 01:00:41,220
Again, the same way there are?

1352
01:00:41,220 --> 01:00:44,747
Use the aspect groups that aren't particularly Maine,

1353
01:00:44,747 --> 01:00:48,180
and the first thing that it taught me as a

1354
01:00:48,262 --> 01:00:49,570
leader was that.

1355
01:00:49,570 --> 01:00:52,610
Leadership is a service position.

1356
01:00:52,610 --> 01:00:55,676
Leadership is not a position that is about your own

1357
01:00:55,736 --> 01:00:58,382
vanity or your ability to accomplish things.

1358
01:00:58,382 --> 01:01:00,405
Leadership is a service position.

1359
01:01:00,405 --> 01:01:03,197
It's not about what you're going to get out of

1360
01:01:03,258 --> 01:01:03,440
it,

1361
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:05,971
it's about what you can do and how you can

1362
01:01:06,032 --> 01:01:08,081
lift up others through leadership.

1363
01:01:08,081 --> 01:01:10,580
So that was the first thing it taught me,

1364
01:01:10,580 --> 01:01:14,662
because, you know, I joined the black student union at

1365
01:01:14,737 --> 01:01:18,290
at Kutztown because we didn't have fun parties.

1366
01:01:18,290 --> 01:01:20,043
That's that's the irony of it.

1367
01:01:20,043 --> 01:01:23,141
That thing with the Kutztown Big Sale that happened in

1368
01:01:23,198 --> 01:01:24,001
February 2006.

1369
01:01:24,001 --> 01:01:26,340
It was a month after I got shot.

1370
01:01:26,340 --> 01:01:28,444
Um and I was like out there speaking.

1371
01:01:28,444 --> 01:01:29,828
I could barely walk, um,

1372
01:01:29,828 --> 01:01:32,200
but what I I make that what happened was I

1373
01:01:32,257 --> 01:01:32,652
joined.

1374
01:01:32,652 --> 01:01:35,447
I joined the back student union to become like the

1375
01:01:35,503 --> 01:01:38,577
guy who like helped him throw better parties and raise,

1376
01:01:38,577 --> 01:01:41,811
throw better fundraisers. And next thing you know I'm like

1377
01:01:41,867 --> 01:01:44,376
on the civil rights kick and I didn't ask for

1378
01:01:44,431 --> 01:01:46,606
it and I remember one of my professors.

1379
01:01:46,606 --> 01:01:49,836
We had professors at our school who would meet us

1380
01:01:49,902 --> 01:01:52,670
in secret because they didn't have tenure.

1381
01:01:52,670 --> 01:01:54,459
And they would tell us this is which I should

1382
01:01:54,499 --> 01:01:54,658
say.

1383
01:01:54,658 --> 01:01:55,554
This is what you said.

1384
01:01:55,554 --> 01:01:58,149
Say during the next meeting you should advocate for this

1385
01:01:58,195 --> 01:01:58,890
and we're like.

1386
01:01:58,890 --> 01:02:02,912
I got again. I have 18 credits hours this semester.

1387
01:02:02,912 --> 01:02:06,055
I don't have time for this so the to get

1388
01:02:06,134 --> 01:02:07,863
back to your question.

1389
01:02:07,863 --> 01:02:11,937
It taught me that you know servant leadership is the

1390
01:02:12,015 --> 01:02:13,974
best style of leadership.

1391
01:02:13,974 --> 01:02:17,808
And how can we as an organization or how can

1392
01:02:17,896 --> 01:02:22,340
lawyers as lawyers increase diversity and stop the.

1393
01:02:22,340 --> 01:02:25,278
Stop the, I guess you could say a window dressing

1394
01:02:25,338 --> 01:02:28,455
when it comes to hiring lawyers who are more diverse

1395
01:02:28,515 --> 01:02:30,913
in that come from different backgrounds.

1396
01:02:30,913 --> 01:02:33,530
What are some daily habits?

1397
01:02:33,530 --> 01:02:38,748
That you engage in that have helped you elevate your

1398
01:02:38,848 --> 01:02:39,350
game.

1399
01:02:39,350 --> 01:02:42,870
Kept you saying as a trial lawyer that other people.

1400
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,163
Could use themselves. I am very,

1401
01:02:47,163 --> 01:02:50,871
very disciplined about the manner in which I allow my

1402
01:02:50,941 --> 01:02:53,319
cell phone to ring to run my life.

1403
01:02:53,319 --> 01:02:55,602
I do something called Mini task,

1404
01:02:55,602 --> 01:02:59,660
so I identify many triggers throughout the day that helped

1405
01:02:59,730 --> 01:03:01,759
me stay on point so you know,

1406
01:03:01,759 --> 01:03:04,090
every like when I'm uh.

1407
01:03:04,090 --> 01:03:06,921
When I'm gardening in doing mouthwash in the morning,

1408
01:03:06,921 --> 01:03:08,808
that's my trigger to do 10 pushups.

1409
01:03:08,808 --> 01:03:10,434
I do that while I'm gardening,

1410
01:03:10,434 --> 01:03:13,003
'cause that gives that keeps me healthy and fit.

1411
01:03:13,003 --> 01:03:15,037
Uh, when I, uh, every time I go to the

1412
01:03:15,090 --> 01:03:15,572
restroom,

1413
01:03:15,572 --> 01:03:16,987
I fill up my water bottle,

1414
01:03:16,987 --> 01:03:19,661
which then makes sure that I'm hydrating and then,

1415
01:03:19,661 --> 01:03:21,234
as it's like a push and pull,

1416
01:03:21,234 --> 01:03:23,737
because now I fill up my water bottle while I'm

1417
01:03:23,790 --> 01:03:24,642
at the restroom.

1418
01:03:24,642 --> 01:03:26,860
And then when I sit back down at the table

1419
01:03:26,913 --> 01:03:29,237
when I sit back down and drink the water now

1420
01:03:29,290 --> 01:03:31,614
I have to go back to the bathroom and refill

1421
01:03:31,614 --> 01:03:34,183
the bottle again. So I'm a really big believer in

1422
01:03:34,236 --> 01:03:34,760
many task.

1423
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:36,276
If I went through all of them,

1424
01:03:36,276 --> 01:03:38,753
you guys will probably think I'm some type of like

1425
01:03:38,802 --> 01:03:40,189
obsessive compulsive person,

1426
01:03:40,189 --> 01:03:42,146
but those are the things that you know,

1427
01:03:42,146 --> 01:03:44,714
I, I guarantee we wouldn't where you're talking to a

1428
01:03:44,763 --> 01:03:47,380
couple of pretty obsessive compulsive over right now,

1429
01:03:47,380 --> 01:03:49,705
but one of the things that I find is remarkably

1430
01:03:49,755 --> 01:03:51,635
important to my success is my reading.

1431
01:03:51,635 --> 01:03:53,675
I have to read every night I put my phone

1432
01:03:53,725 --> 01:03:54,521
in another room,

1433
01:03:54,521 --> 01:03:57,185
and I, whether it's one cake 'cause our reading habits

1434
01:03:57,234 --> 01:03:59,603
have changed so much because of the way that the

1435
01:03:59,652 --> 01:04:00,244
world works.

1436
01:04:00,244 --> 01:04:02,962
Whether it's I don't care if it's a paragraph or

1437
01:04:03,019 --> 01:04:05,680
if it's 40 pages I read every night before bed.

1438
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:09,048
And I do that because when I read at night

1439
01:04:09,128 --> 01:04:12,496
it kind of re centers me most books that I

1440
01:04:12,576 --> 01:04:12,977
read.

1441
01:04:12,977 --> 01:04:17,049
People have gone through. Much more stressful.

1442
01:04:17,049 --> 01:04:21,677
An terrifying things in much deeper adversity than I've experienced,

1443
01:04:21,677 --> 01:04:25,615
and by reading those stories they give me perspective when

1444
01:04:25,683 --> 01:04:27,109
I go to bed at night,

1445
01:04:27,109 --> 01:04:29,122
I eat the frog every morning.

1446
01:04:29,122 --> 01:04:33,213
I don't know if you've ever heard that from Benjamin

1447
01:04:33,292 --> 01:04:34,000
Franklin.

1448
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,862
Email There's a saying that the first thing you do

1449
01:04:36,919 --> 01:04:39,381
in the morning is eat the frog and that the

1450
01:04:39,438 --> 01:04:42,415
idea is that frogs are unpleasant and you don't want

1451
01:04:42,415 --> 01:04:44,417
to deal with them. Like if somebody brought out a

1452
01:04:44,458 --> 01:04:46,379
plate full of food and you would like it's like

1453
01:04:46,420 --> 01:04:48,708
eating your vegetables first first thing in the morning.

1454
01:04:48,708 --> 01:04:49,764
When I get to the office,

1455
01:04:49,764 --> 01:04:52,170
I look at the thing that I'm most afraid of.

1456
01:04:52,170 --> 01:04:53,793
What am I most afraid of today?

1457
01:04:53,793 --> 01:04:56,125
What is the task that I'm the most afraid of?

1458
01:04:56,125 --> 01:04:58,386
And that's the task that I tackle as soon as

1459
01:04:58,438 --> 01:04:59,928
I get into the office I I am.

1460
01:04:59,928 --> 01:05:02,775
I'm not a procrastinator but I can be someone that

1461
01:05:02,832 --> 01:05:05,053
when I have a very big task in front of

1462
01:05:05,110 --> 01:05:06,590
me it will freeze me into.

1463
01:05:06,590 --> 01:05:08,728
Into immobility I won't. I'm frozen,

1464
01:05:08,728 --> 01:05:11,034
I can't do it I I don't feel like doing

1465
01:05:11,094 --> 01:05:11,271
it,

1466
01:05:11,271 --> 01:05:14,470
so understanding that you know when I'm reading my book

1467
01:05:14,528 --> 01:05:17,203
at night and when I when I finally fall asleep

1468
01:05:17,262 --> 01:05:20,286
from reading I understand that my first thing that I

1469
01:05:20,286 --> 01:05:22,964
have to do tomorrow is prep for the thing that

1470
01:05:23,022 --> 01:05:25,409
I don't want to deal with this guy I'd be

1471
01:05:25,467 --> 01:05:28,145
remiss not to ask you this Kevin before we let

1472
01:05:28,145 --> 01:05:32,972
you go. Did did did martial arts save your life

1473
01:05:33,075 --> 01:05:34,307
in some way?

1474
01:05:34,307 --> 01:05:37,370
Can you? Can you speak to?

1475
01:05:37,370 --> 01:05:39,920
That River that runs through you.

1476
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:42,253
So just to give a little background,

1477
01:05:42,253 --> 01:05:45,091
I'm a fourth degree black belt in Taekwondo.

1478
01:05:45,091 --> 01:05:49,034
I've practiced Taekwondo since I was in 6th grade on

1479
01:05:49,110 --> 01:05:50,020
and off and.

1480
01:05:50,020 --> 01:05:54,589
Thai kwando has uh. A tenant,

1481
01:05:54,589 --> 01:05:57,989
one of the tenets of Taekwondo is indomitable spirit,

1482
01:05:57,989 --> 01:06:00,918
and being a six grader who knows what the word

1483
01:06:00,982 --> 01:06:03,465
indomitable means is an accomplishment,

1484
01:06:03,465 --> 01:06:06,676
but that has always been one of my favorite words.

1485
01:06:06,676 --> 01:06:10,628
An Thai Kwando has practically an philosophically gotten me to

1486
01:06:10,691 --> 01:06:11,775
where I am today.

1487
01:06:11,775 --> 01:06:13,663
Practically, when I got shot,

1488
01:06:13,663 --> 01:06:15,426
I got shot twice in my leg.

1489
01:06:15,426 --> 01:06:18,000
I got shot twice in my kicking leg and I

1490
01:06:18,065 --> 01:06:18,322
was,

1491
01:06:18,322 --> 01:06:19,706
uh, when I was a kid,

1492
01:06:19,706 --> 01:06:22,602
I was ranked internationally in martial arts.

1493
01:06:22,602 --> 01:06:24,050
I was a world champion.

1494
01:06:24,050 --> 01:06:27,083
Boring and fighting, and when you get shot you know

1495
01:06:27,143 --> 01:06:27,559
I wore.

1496
01:06:27,559 --> 01:06:30,124
I wear size 10 1/2 eleven shoe on a regular

1497
01:06:30,183 --> 01:06:30,541
basis.

1498
01:06:30,541 --> 01:06:32,779
When I got shot I was forced to wear a

1499
01:06:32,838 --> 01:06:35,724
shoe that was about the sizable 14 because my leg

1500
01:06:35,783 --> 01:06:38,787
swelled up that much from this from the swelling in

1501
01:06:38,787 --> 01:06:41,630
the bullet. Ravage my body that badly and I just

1502
01:06:41,689 --> 01:06:43,466
remember practically like you,

1503
01:06:43,466 --> 01:06:46,911
dummy you got yourself shot in your ruin your kicking

1504
01:06:46,976 --> 01:06:50,550
leg and that was one of those very small idiosyncratic.

1505
01:06:50,550 --> 01:06:53,874
Problems that I had that really made me feel like

1506
01:06:53,941 --> 01:06:55,637
I was being too reckless.

1507
01:06:55,637 --> 01:07:00,018
Philosophically, martial arts has given me a level of mindfulness

1508
01:07:00,085 --> 01:07:03,590
that I would not otherwise have for dealing with the

1509
01:07:03,657 --> 01:07:05,544
things that have come at me.

1510
01:07:05,544 --> 01:07:07,887
That was a very Thai kwando thing.

1511
01:07:07,887 --> 01:07:10,182
I think I did when I when I when I

1512
01:07:10,250 --> 01:07:13,896
took the article that was criticizing me and turned it

1513
01:07:13,963 --> 01:07:15,786
into a a poster for myself.

1514
01:07:15,786 --> 01:07:18,844
That was something that I would do in the gym

1515
01:07:18,912 --> 01:07:20,271
when I was fighting.

1516
01:07:20,271 --> 01:07:23,417
I would post videos of my biggest opponent or I

1517
01:07:23,484 --> 01:07:24,220
would post.

1518
01:07:24,220 --> 01:07:27,569
Uh, posters of my biggest opponent and I would train

1519
01:07:27,633 --> 01:07:30,016
with that poster there as motivation.

1520
01:07:30,016 --> 01:07:33,490
So the things that I've learned in the ring practicing

1521
01:07:33,555 --> 01:07:36,514
martial arts from a philosophical perspective,

1522
01:07:36,514 --> 01:07:38,934
you know if you're a marathon runner,

1523
01:07:38,934 --> 01:07:41,036
you learn how to take a lap off.

1524
01:07:41,036 --> 01:07:43,839
You know, you learn how to take a mile off.

1525
01:07:43,839 --> 01:07:47,584
You're still running, but you're not running at full speed

1526
01:07:47,648 --> 01:07:48,552
and that's it.

1527
01:07:48,552 --> 01:07:50,390
That's the that is a.

1528
01:07:50,390 --> 01:07:54,352
That's an essential skill for American runner to realize that

1529
01:07:54,417 --> 01:07:57,795
running a marathon isn't given 18 miles of your best

1530
01:07:57,860 --> 01:08:00,588
and then kind of walking it to the rest of

1531
01:08:00,588 --> 01:08:02,911
the rest of the way in dragging it.

1532
01:08:02,911 --> 01:08:05,622
It's a very much of your pacing yourself,

1533
01:08:05,622 --> 01:08:07,300
and as a Thai Kwando Guy,

1534
01:08:07,300 --> 01:08:09,689
same thing we pace ourselves during.

1535
01:08:09,689 --> 01:08:11,948
When we're scoring, we strategize.

1536
01:08:11,948 --> 01:08:13,561
We look at our opponent,

1537
01:08:13,561 --> 01:08:16,078
and the best people don't get outrage.

1538
01:08:16,078 --> 01:08:18,918
They don't become. They don't become angry,

1539
01:08:18,918 --> 01:08:20,790
they don't. They don't fight.

1540
01:08:20,790 --> 01:08:22,740
Out of anger when they.

1541
01:08:22,740 --> 01:08:28,020
They they make corrections as they're moving through the motions,

1542
01:08:28,020 --> 01:08:32,609
an martial arts, and the people that I've been associated

1543
01:08:32,690 --> 01:08:36,957
with through martial arts have for the most part been

1544
01:08:37,037 --> 01:08:40,660
a huge part of me being able to center myself

1545
01:08:40,660 --> 01:08:44,260
during these storms. But one final question,

1546
01:08:44,260 --> 01:08:46,970
and that question is Kevin.

1547
01:08:46,970 --> 01:08:51,100
If you had the ability to author create your very

1548
01:08:51,185 --> 01:08:53,039
best life as a lawyer.

1549
01:08:53,039 --> 01:08:57,279
Given all the experiences you've had in your life,

1550
01:08:57,279 --> 01:09:00,470
what would that look like?

1551
01:09:00,470 --> 01:09:02,482
That is an amazing question,

1552
01:09:02,482 --> 01:09:04,910
because when I write my goals out,

1553
01:09:04,910 --> 01:09:08,379
they become more abstract as I look at long term,

1554
01:09:08,379 --> 01:09:11,155
you know as an African American lawyer,

1555
01:09:11,155 --> 01:09:14,448
I have a crew of lawyers that I'm very friendly

1556
01:09:14,518 --> 01:09:18,021
with and we don't know what success looks like for

1557
01:09:18,091 --> 01:09:18,301
us.

1558
01:09:18,301 --> 01:09:22,081
Success for black lawyers in the 1960s meant a federal

1559
01:09:22,152 --> 01:09:26,002
judgeship because they couldn't become general counsel.

1560
01:09:26,002 --> 01:09:30,096
They couldn't become CEO, they couldn't become a partner in

1561
01:09:30,165 --> 01:09:30,720
a large.

1562
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:34,466
Majority white law firm and there were very few that

1563
01:09:34,538 --> 01:09:34,826
did,

1564
01:09:34,826 --> 01:09:37,304
you know? Bill Coleman, Ted wells.

1565
01:09:37,304 --> 01:09:38,933
But for the most part,

1566
01:09:38,933 --> 01:09:42,650
we didn't. We don't know what success looks like and

1567
01:09:42,721 --> 01:09:45,794
I'm blessed to have to work for a man named

1568
01:09:45,866 --> 01:09:46,509
Rob Ross,

1569
01:09:46,509 --> 01:09:48,987
who is an African-American lawyer,

1570
01:09:48,987 --> 01:09:51,606
and he has a life that I just adore.

1571
01:09:51,606 --> 01:09:54,226
I mean, he's he's an amazing lawyer.

1572
01:09:54,226 --> 01:09:56,138
He has a beautiful family.

1573
01:09:56,138 --> 01:09:59,182
He is a strong man of faith and community,

1574
01:09:59,182 --> 01:10:02,870
but for me personally I would have.

1575
01:10:02,870 --> 01:10:06,616
The autonomy to create economic justice and social justice in

1576
01:10:06,677 --> 01:10:09,256
my community for people that were like me,

1577
01:10:09,256 --> 01:10:11,964
one of the things I say and one of the

1578
01:10:12,036 --> 01:10:13,960
reasons I'm so transparent.

1579
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:15,535
Is that I didn't know.

1580
01:10:15,535 --> 01:10:19,056
People like me existed before I became a lawyer and

1581
01:10:19,125 --> 01:10:23,543
it became immediately apparent that there were other people like

1582
01:10:23,612 --> 01:10:23,819
me,

1583
01:10:23,819 --> 01:10:26,353
maybe not with the exact same story,

1584
01:10:26,353 --> 01:10:29,944
but that there were other people like me that people

1585
01:10:30,013 --> 01:10:33,535
you know as they tried to assimilate into the legal

1586
01:10:33,604 --> 01:10:34,295
community.

1587
01:10:34,295 --> 01:10:37,308
They decided to hide a lot of the scars that

1588
01:10:37,376 --> 01:10:41,621
they bear that they that they experienced the adversities that

1589
01:10:41,690 --> 01:10:45,250
they had overcome because they were ashamed of them.

1590
01:10:45,250 --> 01:10:46,639
And in my ideal world,

1591
01:10:46,639 --> 01:10:49,358
I'll be practicing law at the highest level.

1592
01:10:49,358 --> 01:10:51,170
And when I say highest level,

1593
01:10:51,170 --> 01:10:54,238
it just means that I'm practicing law that I enjoy

1594
01:10:54,300 --> 01:10:55,036
you pushing,

1595
01:10:55,036 --> 01:10:56,909
pushing the boundary on cases,

1596
01:10:56,909 --> 01:10:59,386
freeing more people like Terrence Lewis,

1597
01:10:59,386 --> 01:11:02,181
but also creating a law firm in creating an or

1598
01:11:02,242 --> 01:11:05,585
a legal environment where more people that look like me

1599
01:11:05,645 --> 01:11:09,413
that have stories like me and those aren't mutually exclusive.

1600
01:11:09,413 --> 01:11:12,393
I mean there are people who have stories like me

1601
01:11:12,455 --> 01:11:16,490
who are recent immigrants from countries where everyone is white.

1602
01:11:16,490 --> 01:11:20,305
But they still have the absolute right to be able

1603
01:11:20,383 --> 01:11:21,162
to thrive.

1604
01:11:21,162 --> 01:11:24,991
So I want to create an environment around me where

1605
01:11:25,068 --> 01:11:29,051
people can see that you can have economic and social

1606
01:11:29,127 --> 01:11:29,740
justice.

1607
01:11:29,740 --> 01:11:32,429
And create that vehicle 'cause I don't.

1608
01:11:32,429 --> 01:11:36,755
I don't believe that vehicle exist in Philadelphia where there's

1609
01:11:36,823 --> 01:11:40,405
a law firm or a legal organization or legal community

1610
01:11:40,473 --> 01:11:44,393
where everyone can be both upwardly mobile and create more

1611
01:11:44,393 --> 01:11:49,031
income, equality and social equality amongst individual individuals.

1612
01:11:49,031 --> 01:11:52,022
and I mean, I know a lot of African American

1613
01:11:52,089 --> 01:11:55,080
lawyers who have done very well financially,

1614
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:57,642
but if it doesn't. I hate using the term trickle

1615
01:11:57,695 --> 01:11:57,962
down,

1616
01:11:57,962 --> 01:12:00,957
but if it doesn't trickle down and it's not intentional

1617
01:12:01,012 --> 01:12:03,680
to make sure that everyone is well taken care of.

1618
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:06,522
You know, and I don't know and I'll just say

1619
01:12:06,586 --> 01:12:09,363
I don't know what that looks like and we as

1620
01:12:09,428 --> 01:12:13,432
black lawyers we have those conversations all the time because

1621
01:12:13,432 --> 01:12:16,576
it's still unprecedented in many places to have,

1622
01:12:16,576 --> 01:12:20,135
you know, an African American managing partner of a top

1623
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:22,918
20 law firm there of all the 250 law firms

1624
01:12:22,982 --> 01:12:24,147
in the AM Law 250,

1625
01:12:24,147 --> 01:12:26,892
there's one name on a door that is a black

1626
01:12:26,957 --> 01:12:27,676
person one.

1627
01:12:27,676 --> 01:12:30,060
So you got 250 law firms.

1628
01:12:30,060 --> 01:12:32,880
And that means you got at least 250 names and

1629
01:12:32,943 --> 01:12:35,074
many firms have five or six names,

1630
01:12:35,074 --> 01:12:37,427
so his exponentially higher than 250.

1631
01:12:37,427 --> 01:12:40,131
And there's one black name on the door of a

1632
01:12:40,194 --> 01:12:41,389
Amlaw 250 law firm,

1633
01:12:41,389 --> 01:12:44,591
so we're not when people say like what does success

1634
01:12:44,654 --> 01:12:45,784
look like for you.

1635
01:12:45,784 --> 01:12:48,807
I don't know what's going to be attainable in my

1636
01:12:48,870 --> 01:12:49,437
lifetime,

1637
01:12:49,437 --> 01:12:52,818
but my goal is to make sure that some things

1638
01:12:52,895 --> 01:12:56,430
are attained that hadn't been attained before.

1639
01:12:56,430 --> 01:13:03,371
Kevin um thanks man. Thanks so much for doing this.

1640
01:13:03,371 --> 01:13:05,592
Thanks for sharing your story.

1641
01:13:05,592 --> 01:13:09,057
We appreciate it. No thank you you guys you guys

1642
01:13:09,129 --> 01:13:11,078
asking wonderful questions.

1643
01:13:11,078 --> 01:13:12,959
That last question took me out.

1644
01:13:12,959 --> 01:13:15,446
I was. I was, I thought I was prepared but

1645
01:13:15,505 --> 01:13:18,170
we try to hit with the last good question now

1646
01:13:18,229 --> 01:13:20,835
we didn't hit you with the you know what you

1647
01:13:20,835 --> 01:13:23,455
want your tombstone to say so we try now and

1648
01:13:23,514 --> 01:13:25,479
said that was really interesting.

1649
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:27,653
Thank you. Thank you for joining us.

1650
01:13:27,653 --> 01:13:30,969
We hope you've enjoyed this episode of iron advocate and

1651
01:13:31,028 --> 01:13:34,403
that you take what you've learned an integrated into your

1652
01:13:34,462 --> 01:13:35,765
own personal practice.

1653
01:13:35,765 --> 01:13:38,880
As always, we leave you with a minute of mindfulness.

1654
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:46,620
Breathe in. Breathe out and we'll see you next time.

1655
01:14:41,460 --> 01:14:52,190
Bella Wow. Well, Yeah.