Regenerative Food Systems Education with Caroline Aitken and Morag Gamble

Join me in conversation this week on the Sense-Making in a Changing World podcast with fellow permaculture educator, Caroline Aitken who lives on the edge of Dartmoor in England. For the past couple of years, Caroline has led the development of the first ever regenerative food and farming undergraduate and Masters program in the UK, and it has just opened at the innovative ecological university, Schumacher College. Caroline has designed the program to give students opportunity to explore leading-edge alternatives to mainstream agricultural practices and food systems, to visit leading local regenerative farms, get growing too.

It's fabulous to hear how permaculture is being woven so intricately through some of the most innovative programs in the world. I was delighted to catch up with Caroline to hear all about it, and thrilled to be able to share this conversation with you here.

Caroline apprenticed as a permaculture teacher with UK permaculture pioneer and author, Patrick Whitefield, and after his passing, carried on his work. In our chat, Caroline mentioned these books:
​- The Earth Care Manual by Patrick Whitefield
- Food from your Forest Garden by Caroline Aitken
- A Small farm Future by Chris Smaje
- Farming on the Wild Side by Nancy J Hayden and John P Hayden

and these regenerative food and farming organisations:
- Food in Community CIC
- Huxhams Cross Farm
- Dartington Mill
- The Land Workers Alliance
- La Via Campesina
- The Ecological Land Co-operative

Plus these links too:
- Dartington Learning and Schumacher College Live Chat online events
- Farming for the Future Podcasts
- Chelsea Green Publishing youtube channel

Watch the youtube version here

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• Download this list of 10 of Morag's favourite books.
• Morag's 4 part introduction to permaculture video series.

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LEARN MORE ABOUT THE WORLD OF PERMACULTURE WITH MORAG GAMBLE

Explore the permaculture films, articles, masterclasses and other resources on Our Permaculture Life Youtube channel & blog.

Find out more about the Permaculture Education Institute and becoming a certified permaculture educator.

If your main interest is getting a thriving food garden set up,  take a look at this online course: The Incredible Edible Garden.

I acknowledge the Gubbi Gubbi people, Traditional Custodians of the land on which I live , work & play, and pay my respects to their elders past present and emerging.

Audio: Rhiannon Gamble
Music: Kim Kirkman

Transcript

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Morag Gamble 0:00

Welcome to the Sense-making in a Changing World Podcast, where we explore the kind of thinking we need to navigate a positive way forward. I’m your host Morag Gamble.. Permaculture Educator, and Global Ambassador, Filmmaker, Eco villager, Food Forester, Mother, Practivist and all-around lover of thinking, communicating and acting regeneratively. For a long time it's been clear to me that to shift trajectory to a thriving one planet way of life we first need to shift our thinking. The way we perceive ourselves in relation to nature, self, and community is the core. So this is true now more than ever. And even the way change is changing, is changing. Unprecedented changes are happening all around us at a rapid pace. So how do we make sense of this? To know which way to turn, to know what action to focus on? So our efforts are worthwhile and nourishing and are working towards resilience, and reconnection. What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation.

Morag 3:07

In this podcast, I'll share conversations with my friends and colleagues, people who inspire and challenge me in their ways of thinking, connecting and acting. These wonderful people are thinkers, doers, activists, scholars, writers, leaders, farmers, educators, people whose work informs permaculture and spark the imagination of what a post-COVID, climate-resilient, socially just future could look like. Their ideas and projects help us to make sense in this changing world to compost and digest the ideas and to nurture the fertile ground for new ideas, connections and actions. Together we'll open up conversations in the world of permaculture design, regenerative thinking community action, earth repair, eco-literacy, and much more. I can't wait to share these conversations with you. Over the last three decades of personally making sense of the multiple crises we face. I always returned to the practical and positive world of permaculture with its ethics of earth care, people care and fair share. I've seen firsthand how adaptable and responsive it can be in all contexts from urban to rural, from refugee camps to suburbs. It helps people make sense of what's happening around them and to learn accessible design tools, to shape their habitat positively and to contribute to cultural and ecological regeneration. This is why I've created the Permaculture Educators Program to help thousands of people to become permaculture teachers everywhere through an interactive online dual certificate of permaculture design and teaching. We sponsor global Permayouth programs, women's self help groups in the global South and teens in refugee camps. So anyway, this podcast is sponsored by the Permaculture Education Institute and our Permaculture Educators Program. If you'd like to find more about permaculture, I've created a four-part permaculture video series to explain what permaculture is and also how you can make it your livelihood as well as your way of life. We'd love to invite you to join a wonderfully inspiring, friendly, and supportive global learning community. So I welcome you to share each of these conversations, and I'd also like to suggest you create a local conversation circle to explore the ideas shared in each show and discuss together how this makes sense in your local community and environment. I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land in which I meet and speak with you today, the Gubbi Gubbi people and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging.

Morag Gamble 3:36

It's a great pleasure to welcome to the show today, Caroline Aitken of Whitefield permaculture. Caroline's a permaculture teacher and permaculture designer. She's been teaching permaculture at Schumacher College and has spent the last few years developing the Bachelor of Science in Regenerative Food and Farming at the college. I welcome you to join us in this conversation as we explore the current state of the food system and discuss the emerging new stories of regenerative food and farming. Enjoy! Well, thank you so much for joining me on the show today, Caroline, it’s an absolute delight to have you on Sense-Making in a Changing World. One of the things that we have in common is a love of permaculture and also, a focus on looking at the big picture of what's going on in the food system, and also another thread in common is that we both have been inspired in some way or other by Patrick Whitefield in permaculture. Me, in a very minor way, I remember when I was 23, I was at Schumacher College and Patrick came in to run a program at Schumacher College about listening to the land and I know something about what he was doing there, just was so grounding after being so much in my head at the college and I, and he was talking about permaculture and it reminded me of something that my dad had talked about all the time when I was a kid and it really switched me back onto it. And I know that you've spent a lot of time with Patrick as well. Maybe we just start there? Where and how did your life enter into the world or connect with the world of permaculture.

Caroline Aitken 5:24

So slightly, sort of roundabout route, really, I originally studied design and I was working as a product designer in the UK and decided to go off traveling as many people do and I traveled around Australia. And so I did a year in Australia and I did a certain amount of working on farms, and that's where I first came across the word permaculture. And I can remember the time I left Australia having that sort of vague sense of what it was and what it was all about, but that I was really excited by it and I wanted to know more. So, I came back to the UK and I, and I sort of looked it up and I did some searches. And the first person that I found online was Patrick, Patrick Whitefield. I came across his book - The Earth Care Manual and I can remember buying the book and sort of getting home with it, it's a huge tome of a book with the planet Earth on the front. And I just sort of absorbed the whole thing and it completely blew my mind. I think a lot of people experience this with permaculture that it just makes so much sense and it ties lots of things together. It's a real light bulb moment for a lot of us. So, I went and studied with Patrick . I did a permaculture design course with him at Ragman’s Lane Farm, a wonderful permaculture farm in Gloucestershire, and we did those two weeks and it was quite a nice story actually because, I, at the time was working on a farm at Devon and doing a bit of work, cooking and really just kind of scraping a living and Patrick had offered me a really incredible that I could take part in the course. And so while I was there, I helped out a lot and in the end they said, Hey, would you like to come back and be the course cook? So I started cooking for the courses and then Patrick offered me an apprenticeship, a teaching apprenticeship, and that's really how it all began. So I was working on the farm and I was learning about permaculture and it really, everything just sort of fell into place really. So Patrick and I worked together for a few years, teaching alongside each other and doing land design work together until he handed the business to me when he became unwell. And that's why my business is called Whitefield Permaculture because I sort of, I kind of took on the battle carrying on with that work.

Morag Gamble 8:06

Wonderful, wonderful! And so you've carried on that work and now you're in Devon around the corner from a place called Schumacher College, and you've been teaching permaculture there into the various food systems courses, which is wonderful. So how does permaculture look like at Schumacher College Dartington these days? Is there, how does it manifest in that context? Because I know it's quite a different world than say, my subtropical permaculture garden out here, for example.

Caroline Aitken 8:41

Yes. So what we have here, I mean, Devon, is such a traditional farming region. It's really famous in the UK for its big green rolling hills and the patchwork landscapes. So really a lot of Devon is still very traditional and very rural and it's a lot of grass. So, it's a very wet climate here and we tend to have quite heavy soils so it’s not the best place for growing crops so you’re mostly seeing cows and sheep in the landscape. Schumacher College is based in a really old estate so in England, a lot of our land is sort of formed into these historic estates. And the Dartington estate is 1200 acres, in a beautiful part of South Devon and it has a really interesting history, but that’s possibly the most interesting part of the history as far as we might be concerned is when the family took it on around a hundred years ago and began using the land for innovating, in ecology, and in farming. And they did some pretty wacky way out experiments, all kinds of different things but farming was one of the key focuses. And then thirty years ago, I think we're coming up to the 30th anniversary of Schumacher College, Satish Kumar and a number of other people formed Schumacher College on the Dartington Estate. And again, their focus, inspired by EF Schumacher who work, always beautiful was to create a college where people would come and learn and really sort of think differently about the world and really tackle some of the big philosophical questions of life, the universe and everything. They've been running a number of postgraduate courses, lots of short courses there for the past 30 years. And so permaculture thread, certainly the part that I've been involved with the last few years is, they run a practical six-month course called The Practical Residency and Sustainable Horticulture which is a really hands-on course and the students who come on to that program are working in these really diverse demonstration gardens at the college on campus, demonstrating lots of different regenerative food production approaches, and actually producing a really huge proportion of the food for the college. The permaculture design course is embedded into that program, and many of the people who come on to that course will go off and work in, maybe setting up their own food enterprises, or working in other sort of innovative and cutting edge food projects and enterprises.

Morag Gamble 11:55

That's so wonderful. It's so fantastic that a place like Schumacher College has really embraced the idea of having a permaculture course as part of it. But now, it's kind of evolving into something quite, even more complex than that. And I see both in the education side of things that you've been working on, but also in terms of the re-imagining of what's happening on the estate. So maybe if we could just start with the estate first and then come back to the program that you've been working on. So what is the big picture vision now for this 1200 acres? It's just had a new vision really for it in the last few years. Can you talk about that maybe?

Caroline Aitken 12:43

Yes. The estates often have quite interesting journeys and they have different chapters where there are different people who come in with different visions . So they often sort of go through these periodic, new manifestations, and back in 2012, Dartington decided to do a complete review of the way in which they use their land on the estate. At that point sort of become really quite conventional in terms of the kind of farming tendencies and the kind of practices that were happening on the estate. And so, really, the trust felt that it was time to really examine them, given the kind of growing, understanding of the way in which, how we farm can influence the environment and our society. And so, they commissioned the lands used for review in 2012. They really had a look at what they had on the estate and what they could be doing to sort of further those aims of benefit learning and benefiting society as whole, which is what the estate’s always been about. The land use review, led to this whole thing we think about, the use of the land, and what they wanted to do is to really diversify the kind of land management that was happening and bring more people in to make use of that land. Since then, that's exactly what's happening. We now see an estate which is made up of multiple tenancies , lots of different, really interesting land-based enterprises, farms, businesses, projects, charities , communities, interest companies, and so it's really, really evolved into this fantastic little complex ecosystem of activity. So what's happening now is that really, as a result of that, people started to come to Dartington to see what was happening, and engage with these projects. And people started coming from all over the world to see what was happening on the estate and that really led Schumacher College to think, hang on a minute, we need to maybe, renewing our focus on food in the ecosystem. So that led the college to start developing more food and farming related programs because of course it works do beautifully with what’s happening. There are more food and farming related short courses, and we now have a BSC , the first undergraduate program that Schumacher College due to opening in September , which is a BSC in regenerative food and farming, which is what I've been really focusing on in the last two to three years . And we have an MSC regenerative food and farming enterprise, which is due to open in January, and then coming up soon, it will be an MA in sustainable food systems. So really, we're just developing, sort of bringing together everything that's already happening. And we're really optimizing that to kind of communicate these ideas in the most effective way. And I can certainly talk more about what led to the undergraduate program.

Morag Gamble 16:23

Yeah, Yeah, I'd love to hear more about where that came from and what are the sorts of key issues that you're focusing on there, because I know that it's going to be something that will attract people from around the world to be part of this. So obviously it has sort of that big picture global perspective, but also something that brings people into sort of very local as well. So, how was it, where did it come from, and what are some of the key elements that you woven into that?

Caroline Aitken 16:58

Yeah, we really started with the big picture with this. Back in 2017, I was commissioned by the head of college to do a study, which we called the Food Culture Study and this was triggered by not only what was happening on your estate, but also, we started to see really large international organizations and national government really beginning to strongly advocate, a widespread transition towards agroecological system. And so agroecology is very much informed by the principles of ecology and very much the same way permaculture is just specifically focused on agriculture and rural communities,but it’s as much as a social movement as it is an environmental movement because it's really looking at food justice and food sovereignty as well as the harmonious environment food production. This study was a fantastic way to kind of really get out and talk to all sorts of different groups and stakeholders about what they felt was needed from educators at Schumacher College in order to aid this transition. So I went out, I spoke to farmers, growers and food business people, and I spoke to policy makers, change makers, educators and all sorts of different groups within the sector. And I asked them what they felt was needed. And we put all of that into, and I sort of evaluated all of that vast body of information. And alongside, that looked at what is currently available in terms of training and we have this huge advocacy for our ecology and the transition and what I found certainly in the UK, and I did look a little bit further afield as well and found that actually, there isn't really substantial training in order for people to respond to those calls. So in the UK, there was some huge gaps that I identified. So having identified what the sector felt was needed from what was actually available, then we just kind of said, okay, well, let's see how we can fill those gaps. And as a higher education institution, the obvious route was to create a really good comprehensive higher education program, which is why, in this instance it was an undergraduate program and we realized that, other large agricultural universities have these really substantial degree programs for people wanting to go into farming, whether that's straight agriculture, farm business management, or whatever it might be. And there was no agricultural equipment for that . And what's been really fascinating in creating this program and responding directly to what we were told was needed, is that we realized, of course, that farming doesn't exist in isolation. It's so completely integrated with society and the environment. And what I found really inspiring when I did this research and I was already aware of this incredible movement that was growing in the UK, was finding the people who have made their agri-ecological food and farming enterprises work really kind of against all the odds. And so this led me to these incredible innovators . So in the UK over the last few years, we've had our particular situation here, has been, under the common agricultural policy in Europe. Farms under a certain size and the farms under 5 hectares, weren't eligible for any of the farming subsidies and so the situation with farming subsidies in the UK , but it generally makes up about half of the whole farm incomes . It's a really big chance, huge, so we have a situation where a lot of our farmers are entirely dependent upon their subsidies. And the reason they’re dependent is because we've had this increasing situation where the value of food has remained static, or in fact, dropped, so their farm gate prices are staying the same or dropping the cost of their inputs and their overheads are always keeping up. They reached peak efficacy for nitrogen fertilizers, they can't throw anymore on to get any more yield, now that's not happening anymore . We have pesticides resistance in pests , and diseases and so really they've got nowhere to go and of course, a lot of the natural capital has been lost through soil erosion. So we have this really very vulnerable situation in conventional farming. Meanwhile, we have these small farms who have not been eligible for that support, and therefore haven't developed that dependency, but rather have developed innovative ways of surviving. And so while our farm numbers, you know, we've been losing farm handovers since 2005 and yet we've been gaining small farms slowly, flashing gradually. So we have these small food and farming enterprises, you’ve gone, okay, we don't have subsidies, we can't compete with the big farms in terms of selling on the commodity market. So we're going to find direct foods to our local market. So they developed things like local box schemes, community supported agriculture schemes, where they get a buy-in from their community, which gives them that sense of financial security to keep going year on year. They have formed food hubs, food cooperatives, you know all of these ways in which they can sell directly to their local community and get a much bigger proportion of food pounds. So, if a farmer sells directly to the supermarket, they tend to receive around eight percent of a few pounds, whereas if they’re selling directly to their community, you know, they're getting more like the, sort of the complete opposite of that. More like 1992 of the food pound.

Morag Gamble 23:35

Let's just say that again, just so that it was clear because sometimes the sound is going out of it. And I don't know if people heard that that was eight P in the pound that traditional farming is getting and that's huge. And I wonder too, I wonder about the ages of farmers. So here in Australia is sort of the general age of a typical farmer, the typical farming system is around retirement age, whereas when we look at the new farms, these regenerative farms that are coming up, they're typically a new generation of farmers coming through. Is that being seen in your context as well?

Caroline Aitken 24:22

Absolutely, and I believe it's the same picture in much of the global north. So yes, the reason that the average age of the farmer is going up and around. In the UK, I often see from 58,59 as the average age and this is because we have a big issue with family farm succession, which is the younger generation wanting to take on and continue the family farm business. And who can blame, that farmers kind of really have had a hard time in recent years, with exactly that picture that I described, and so the people, the young people that we're seeing, coming into farming tend to be coming into this very new and different kind of farming and often they're not from farming backgrounds at school, many are young career changes actually, you may have studied something or they’re a bit like me, you know, I studied design and I ended up farming, you know, but we're being drawn to it because it's one of the rare good news stories, I think it is a big part of it. You know, there are so many bad news stories in the world and at the moment, farming is such a good news story. If we farm in the right way, we can solve many of those really big problems with food and food inequality, environmental degradation, food waste, food miles, all of these different issues, you know, and so people kind of get drawn into something that feels like a meaningful livelihood. And certainly the small farm movement that's been developing here in the last 10, 15 years, it's so thriving and so positive and really supportive network.. And we have networks like the Land Workers Alliance, for example, who are part of the global La Via Campesina network and they have these fantastic networking events, they’re really supportive, they offer training and advice and they're also lobbying the government on positive policy changes. So it's a really exciting thing to be a part of

Morag Gamble 26:36

I wanted to ask you about that with the subsidies. I mean, if 50% of farmers’ income is subsidies and kind of hitting a wall and the price that farmers are getting is so low, is there a shift happening at that subsidy level? Is that, is there some turnaround that's taking place in response to this? What are you seeing happening?

Caroline Aitken 27:00

Yeah, so, gosh, it's a really interesting time here in the UK for agriculture policy, as you know, we’ve left the European Union and so we have the best chance in 15 years to rewrite our agriculture policy . And it's been, people have been very engaged with that, it's such an opportunity and so where we're at with that now is that the government, they have announced, that we have an agricultural act, which came about as a result of , you know, the public consultation and the little ping pong that happens here between the commons and the Lords to get them through and we have the act, but we are still in with DEFRA who's that the department for environment and food here are still piloting and trialing the new subsidy scheme. So it will take awhile to transition out of the common agricultural policy subsidies into these new subsidies. And so the sort of the bad news at the moment is that there's a lot of uncertainty because we farmers don't yet know exactly what they'll be eligible for and what they might have to do in order to be eligible but the good news is that, the new farming subsidies are very heavy based on environmental land management. So they are looking to the sort of tagline “public money for public goods” so they've really, the government have really taken on board, this idea of, it's already a term I like to use, but natural capital, the importance of natural capital and that actually, that those things like biodiversity, and carbon sequestration flood mitigation and heritage, you know, that they are public assets . So that's really great, it would be nice to see more support for whole farm systems and accurate agro-ecological approaches, because I think the concern is that, if we continue to put different types of land management into separate silos, we're not encouraging people to kind of really integrate those different components and get incredible multiple benefits that you get from that integration .

Morag Gamble 29:11

I wonder too whether there's this support for those small farmers in this new Policy?

Caroline Aitken 29:40

We don't know yet is the answer. So they have made, they have been saying, you know the rhetoric has been very positive, they want these subsidies to be available for all farmers. But I think there's a little bit of nervousness around this at the moment, because certainly to begin with it will only be the recipients of the former scheme who will actually be eligible for the new scheme. And they are saying that they will gradually bring more and more people in and we just have to, you know, I think anytime where there is new policy being formed and there's an opportunity for the public engagement informing that policy, we have to be diligent and we have to keep engaging with it and just keep on telling them what we want.

Morag Gamble 30:37

Yep. So in your research that you've done around, I don't know how far you looked, but what were some of those, you've talked about good news stories. I'm just wondering, what are some of those really interesting type of food systems, examples that you've seen that highlight this new paradigm of the food systems and just make you feel really hopeful?

Caroline Aitken 31:05

Yeah, so we're lucky we've got quite a few on our doorstep here in Dartington. So, you know, we talked about some of the big issues in the food system and two of those being food equality and also waste. And there's a brilliant project here at Dartington called Food and Community, a little community interest company who gather up food waste from various different retailers and service providers and they redistribute that food waste to people in food poverty in the local area. And I don't know , maybe it may be surprising for some listeners to hear that in the UK, we have a real issue with food poverty. And food banks have been drawn upon in a way that they haven't been for a very long time. And so food and community, not only do they redistribute the food waste, so that's kind of, you know, that's solving two issues in one hit, but also they realize that obviously there are these bigger systemic issues underlying all of this and so they also train people up, they run little courses and community building events. So they're bringing communities together, teaching people about how to source good food, how to cook, how to eat healthily. So really, really inspiring.

Morag Gamble 32:27

Yeah . Wonderful! Yeah, others around, you mentioned, you know, food cooperatives in CSAs and farmers and farmers’ markets as well. Like how much has that spread throughout the UK? I remember way back in 1992 being, seeing the emergence of some of the first farmer's markets around, I think it was around Bristol area. And it just seems like it just spread so amazingly. So is that something that you see has really landed in the, kind of the food culture where you are or was it still in pockets? .

Caroline Aitken 33:08

Yeah, that really has, you know, and when I remember the first farmers’ market, you know, I remember being at art college, and it being quite a novel thing, you know, and it was certainly quite a kind of, it was definitely, it was quite a middle class thing, to be honest at the time, it was really for the more affluent people and so, I went to art college Winchester, which is this beautiful historic city and it, and it was all very middle-class and lovely but it's evolved since then. And I think that, you know, there may still be a little you know, small farmers starting up things like these direct sales models of vegetable box schemes, meat box games and often having a pickup service at local farmer's markets , and because these consumers, sorry, these producers are selling directly to their consumers, they are able to keep their food at a very affordable price for people. And of course, you know , you still have your kind of your high end products, but a lot of producers, I think, feel that if they can offer that food at an affordable price then they do. So I would say that pretty, pretty much every, every town 50 in the lands now has some kind of farmers farmer's market or, or produce a hub or box scheme available.

Morag Gamble 34:46

Wonderful! And that's quite a massive shift in a short period of time, really. Hasn't it kind of being embraced so much, and it's really lovely too, to hear that it's shifted so right, you know, you started talking about the food and community, addressing food poverty, and then, you know, farmer's market being sort of a, more of a gourmet end of the local food system, but really filling in the gaps has been something that I've been really interested in over the years, too , that it's, it's actually just becomes really accessible and that it's, that it's real food for everyday people. And that , that, you know, we find ways that, you know, good food is just a basic human right, not a privilege. And so it's great to hear that, you know, that’s starting to happen with, with so many things. And I, and I wonder too, whether, whether you're seeing any permaculture farms that are integrating with these, are there any kind of really interesting permaculture farms that you've seen marketing their produce in this way and being a really successful example of, of a local food system?

Caroline Aitken 36:00

Absolutely. I mean, there's , again, we're lucky there's one right on our doorstep here at Dartington. So, the apricot center, which runs from Huxhams Cross Farm, which is a biodynamic permaculture farm, and really diverse, fantastic diverse integrated permaculture systems, they've got vegetables, they, they do chickens and eggs, they have soft food and they have tough food and they also do grains, so very diverse. And they run a box scheme and they set up various shops here as well, but they're very collaborative. And so they're engaging a lot with the community. There's also a care farm element of their work as well. They do some therapeutic stuff. They're very engaged in community that they're working with other enterprises on the estate in lots of different ways. One of my favorite projects, the Dartington Mill , which is a collaboration between Huxhams Cross Farm old parsonage farm, which is the biggest farm here on the estate, and an incredible artisan base with the almond thief, which is in Dartington and bakes the most incredible bread. And so they've been collaborating on growing population grains and trying to develop land races. And because, as I said earlier, Devon is not, It's not known for its grain growing potential so it's really important that we develop the land races that work here in this climate and the soil. And so they've been doing that, growing the grain, processing it here at Dartington and then, so milling it and then selling it as bags of flour to the community, locally , and then also having it baked into the wonderful products.

Morag Gamble 37:56

And I think that's something that I remember Schumacher College being really strong about is this, this immersion in, in food that every day at the college, you know, for, particularly for the, you know, the residential programs, that there's some way of being involved in the harvesting and the cooking, and then sharing the meals together and that the , the whole conversation around food and particularly, you know, Satish talking about the loaf of bread, you know, a loaf of bread, just not being a loaf of bread, there's so much more to it. And so the fact that, you know, you now have local bakeries like this it's phenomenal. I know Schumacher’s been making their own bread, but maybe not from such incredible local grain. I mean, if that can be coming right from the, from , from the estate, that's, that's amazing. And what a brilliant thing to be able to bring in students in this new program to be able to be studying a bachelor's, but then being immersed in all of these programs. So I think I heard you mentioned, maybe it was in another conversation that we had that students who do this program will also have a chance to kind of meet all these different, which just will they get a chance to go out and work with them, or how, how does that kind of learning pathway work?

Caroline Aitken 39:19

Well, absolutely I will. So , so we , the sort of threads is the program really strong threads where obviously the regenerative food production so the kind of the real cutting edge technology and methodology that regenerative agriculture, then the business skills so this was something that obviously often people who are drawn to a land-based livelihoods don't come from a business background necessarily or have those skills so that was something key, also basic understanding of biosciences, agri-ecological sciences was key because of course ecology underpins all of that practice. And so, and then it's sort of, you know, the, the sort of bigger picture, contextual stuff, you know, like, understanding of the food system and how it works and really being able to sort of critically analyze different approaches to farming. And so , so what we wanted to do was to give people this really rounded package of knowledge and understanding practical skills so that when they graduate, that they're ready and ready to go, but we knew that we needed to reference real life and real practice as often as possible. So in pretty much every module on the course, they will be coming into contact with, lecturers coming in , field trips, field work, case studies or different projects, and enterprises, tours and visits so that we can really tap into all of this incredible stuff happening and then show the students the kind of these incredibly inspiring examples of how people have made things work and really made them work. And you know, and to show the benefits of collaboration that allowed students to learn from all of this incredible learning that's gone on in his last 15, 20 years out there in the field of how, how to, how to engage with your community and find innovative routes to market. So they , yes, they will be. I mean, you know, what , what a context to run this course in

Morag Gamble 41:34

Fantastic I'm just imagining all these people who are coming to that and then going out. And I know that some of them will be from overseas, but I wonder how does it work where you are for people who are not from a land-based community who want to become farmers, if you, if you're not having the land hand down through the generations, how hard is it now to access a piece of land? And is it actually creating an innovation in the way that people work together to access the land? What, what's your, what's your noticings there?

Caroline Aitken 42:11

So yeah, absolutely good observation. It's another key area of innovation. So yeah, we , we, you know, in the UK, we do have an issue with access to land, and that's partly to do with the way that the land is owned here but it's also to do with land prices, having been pushed up, pushed up over the years because of the common agricultural policy actually, which paid farmers by area for the land that they owned and farmed. So that has exaggerated the issue somewhat, but again, you know, it's led to innovation. So there are all sorts of organizations who help young people, new entrants to farming in gaining access to land. There's the Ecological Land Co-operative, which creates land trusts and then really sort of fair tenancy for people, there are farm start organizations, increasing incubators for new entrants. And it's something that we are planning to develop here on the estate as well, there’s one thing that we are rich in, is land. And so we are, you know, we'll be looking into having incubator plots as well to kind of springboard people into a better position from which to start.

Morag Gamble 43:27

Fantastic. Can you talk a little bit more about farmland trust? Because I think this is something that's really very interesting and it doesn't really exist in Australia. And I think that's something that would be a wonderful thing to do because it's kind of a similar situation here where, you know, unless you're handed down farmland from older generations, the prices of land in Australia have just gone horrendously high as well. And so there's lots of different ways that people are starting to , to approach accessing land. But one of them, I think that really holds a lot of potential is this notion of a farm land trust. We have Bush land trusts, cities are buying up Bush land because they're valuing the , uh, the importance of having Bush land in and around cities. And so, you know, one of the things that I've been talking with with various councils, this war let's have a look good, the remnant farmland in and around our cities.

Caroline Aitken 45:16

Yeah. So there are a number of different sorts of approaches to this, really . And again, we've got an interesting history of that because it used to be that we had council-owned farms, county farms here and gradually unfortunately, a lot of those have been sold off over the years. So there's a renewed, some kind of, you know, pushing for the county farms to come back because that's always been a really great way for the new entrants without sort of private funds to active farming to get into farming. So that's one thing. If , you know, that's never been , a thing, you know, where you are then, community land trust, sort charitable land trust, another thing to look at. And so essentially that is raising money from stakeholders to buy the piece of land and then to give just very fair and equitable leases on those lands. And the land will be held in trust for and a very long period of time to give security to their tenants . Another interesting thing that's happening here because so much of our land is owned by relatively few people and so there's been interesting conversations going on with large land owners in these times and these ideas about farm share agreements, which can help small enterprises get going by , by sort of having the little, or sort of peppercorn rent that sort of paying a little bit of their profits to the landowner. And then the landowners then invested in their success and also sometimes it's just a little bit of a mindset change actually, because landowners are used to renting out large tenancies and often they're not hugely you know, historically I've been hugely interested in renting out what they could parcel because well it's a bit you know, annoying to have to fence off by like a corner of the field , you know , so there's a , there's a kind of a mindset change here kind of thinking well maybe, I could, maybe I could section a few areas of field and let those out to small. So I think as with many things, I think it's often multiple solutions.

Morag Gamble 47:59

Yeah, you have a, what about the history of the commons over there and whether there's still, are there still any commons in existenceand how does that work in terms of accessing that land for these types of initiatives?

Caroline Aitken 48:14

Yeah, so, so the commons are generally, well, I mean, there's different, different definitions of the word the commons , um, but we do still have common pieces of land, which are, which are, essentially, forever the local farming communities have access rights to use that land so , you know usually, fairly, low-grade grazing land that very specific members of the local community are allowed to graze their animals on for, you know , different periods of time. So they, you know, they'll each have their number of days that they're allowed to take loans on. So, for example, Dartmoor, where I live, much of Dartmoor is a commons and there are grazers who, for generations of their family, have rights to graze their cattle on Dartmoor.

Morag Gamble 49:14

So who manages the , the comments and says, who can have it and who can't have it. And how do you shift those intergenerational things to maybe have different things happening there? Or is it just simply that they are marginal lands and that's really all that can happen?

Caroline Aitken 49:31

Yeah, to be honest, I don't know. It's not, it's not my area of, but there's been a lot of work on that in recent years. And I think if you’re interested in looking at land ownership in the UK specifically, I would certainly point people towards Guy Shrubsole, who wrote a fantastic book called Who owns England, has a website full of fascinating information.

Morag Gamble 49:57

Can you just say that again? I didn't quite catch the name of the book and the author.

Caroline Aitken 49:57

Guy Schrubsole, which is a great name, and book was Who Owns England? So that's really interesting, but also, again, the Land Workers Alliance has done a lot of work on land rights and land access.

Morag Gamble 50:23

Wonderful. So what are the sort of books and films, or things that are inspiring you at the moment? What are you reading?

Caroline Aitken 50:35

Oh my goodness. Well, I've actually, I mean, there are always so many, which is [inaudible], stack connects to my bed which I’m trying to get to, at the moment actually, I've been reading a number of books published by Chelsea Green who were one of our partners at Dartington, because I've been interviewing some of their authors who has written food and farming related books. And so I've had the treat of having these wonderful books coming to my door that I read . And one of those I particularly enjoyed was A Small Farm Future by Chris Smaje, which is fascinating because really, so Chris was originally an anthropologist, a social scientist , and this really comes through in the book, it's so well researched and, and all laid down and he became a farmer and very much a permaculture farmer. And he was really interested in this idea you know , the big part of the philosophy in permaculture really is that we can, you know, the question of how can permaculture change the world, well the answer is actually it kind of is feeding about 70% of the world right now, the way in which, you know , the majority of the world's people are fed by these small-scale , diverse , integrated farming systems. And so Chris was really interested in looking at well, what would, what would happen? How would it look if we’re in the global north, change the way that we produce food in that way? And so, he really explores, you know, the physical, the practical, the spiritual, you know, the social elements of that and lays out this picture of the future in which we are fed by small farms. So that's fascinating, and at the moment I'm reading, Farming on the Wild Side by Nancy and John Hayden , which is lovely, and inspiring story of the way in which they transitioned to agroecology on their farm in Vermont. And so you just see, one of those books where you have the wonderful, the stark picture was very conventional farm, which is, you know , sort of ecological desert really, your standard classic monoculture and then gradually , you know, they, they add in all these components and they tied them together and you see beautiful diversification of the farm.

Morag Gamble 53:17

Wonderful. Oh, thank you for sharing those examples. I wanted to, whether in terms of the listeners, what are some of the things that you would like to maybe let them know about how they can get in touch with you, about the different programs that you've talked about, but also some things that you'd like to maybe encourage them to kind of dive in and have a look more at possibly?

Caroline Aitken 53:45

Absolutely. So you can, you can have a look at my website, which is whitefield permaculture.co.uk. Uh that's um, all sorts of stuff on it, but also information about the courses and the land design, things that I do. You can check out the Schumacher College website , which is schumacher college.org.uk. And there you'll find all the information about the BSC regenerative food and farming, which you have all the modules laid out and you'll get a real picture of the course. And if you want to know more about that course, then we're doing these live chats for them. So again, have a look at the college website and also, the Dartington website, which is dartington.org and you'll find the dates for the live chats where you can actually come and talk to me online and I'll talk more about the content of the course and answer any questions. We actually have a virtual open evening, which is tomorrow evening as well. So you can find links to that on all of our Facebook pages, the Schumacher College [inaudible] and my Facebook pages as well and so do come and have a look, if you want to know more about the college and what it's like and the different courses that are available, but in terms of how people can get involved. I think one of the most important and most empowering things that we can do is to engage with our local food producers and engage with our local community . In doing that, you know, the way that we spend our food pound is really powerful, you know? And so if we were to, you know, if we can grow any of our own food , again, it may seem like a really small thing, but it's a big impact if lots of us are doing it. And then when we go out and engage with our local producers and we have a formal relationship with them, it's a really powerful thing. So I think it's a really positive thing too .

Morag Gamble 55:51

Yeah. I mean, the multiple benefits of it and the ripple effects of it are quite profound, you know, it's just, in a way it's kind of a beginning point, isn't it. When you start to talk about the food system, you can talk about everything from there. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why I focused on , on permaculture and food, because you can look at, you can look at health, you can look at education, you can look at, you know , all different sorts of, you know , ecological restoration and local economy and all of these things together through the focus on, on, what we do with food. So it's, it's a wonderful program and you know, everything that you've been researching and pulling together, thank you so much for, for taking the time to describe that to us and to, to share that I hope that many of the listeners might follow through and check out what's going on over at Schumacher College. Because even though, you know, you may or may not be able to partake in the long course, there's always short courses that are there as well, and all sorts of things that are going on within this world. And, and yeah, like you're saying, find a way to support your local grower and your local community, and maybe consider, you know, the whole idea of maybe you could be a farmer too . There's someone else who I just interviewed the other week who used to be a builder and it took on a one acre piece of farm and left the city and now makes his entire living for his family from this one acre and with 11 streams of income. And it's just a fascinating story that, that it's a shift in our narrative thinking that, you know, the farmers are sort of out there and they have big plots and they don't really, you know, it's this distance thing, you know, particularly urban dwellers and you know, this whole idea that we could actually shift and change and become more, more, totally engaged in our food system. So, oh , look, it's just wonderful. And I'm so glad to hear the stories about how it's , it's, it's just taken off in every single community, you know , every single town around, around the UK. I hope that it does that here in Australia as well. Yeah. So thank you for your time. It's been lovely to chat with you and see you again. And yeah, I hope I hope to stay in touch and talk more about all the different work that we collectively do in all our different parts of the world.

Caroline Aitken 58:32

Thank you for having me Morag. Thank you.

Morag Gamble 58:36

So that's all for today. Thanks so much for joining us head on over to my YouTube channel, the links below, and then you'll be able to watch this conversation, but also make sure that you subscribe, because that way we notified of all new films that come out and also you'll get notified of all the new, all the new interviews and conversations that come out. So thanks again for joining us, have a great week, and I'll see you next time.