Blue Collar Conversations

Episode 13: Why are our children not back in school?

June 27, 2020 Blue Collar Conservatism Season 1 Episode 13
Blue Collar Conversations
Episode 13: Why are our children not back in school?
Chapters
Blue Collar Conversations
Episode 13: Why are our children not back in school?
Jun 27, 2020 Season 1 Episode 13
Blue Collar Conservatism

As the debate rumbles on about how and when to get children back into school, we've reached out to two blue collar champions to explain what needs to be done:

(2:11) Stuart Herdson is the former President of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers (at home and abroad), which is one of the country's top teaching unions.

(12:26) Adrian Kneeshaw is the CEO of Carlton Bolling College and has a history of turning round failing schools into outstanding centres of education.

How can it be right that school children - who are the least affected by COVID-19 - end up the most impacted by it in the long term?

Show Notes Transcript

As the debate rumbles on about how and when to get children back into school, we've reached out to two blue collar champions to explain what needs to be done:

(2:11) Stuart Herdson is the former President of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers (at home and abroad), which is one of the country's top teaching unions.

(12:26) Adrian Kneeshaw is the CEO of Carlton Bolling College and has a history of turning round failing schools into outstanding centres of education.

How can it be right that school children - who are the least affected by COVID-19 - end up the most impacted by it in the long term?

Speaker 1:

So six years ago, Adrian, you took on Colton bowling college, which was rated inadequate and placed in special measures by inspectors, as it was caught up in the scandal, which , uh , saw hardline Muslims tried to take over non-faith schools. So you'll have pupils about 1400 of them from some of the most economically disadvantaged places in the country. And yet last year, the school was named secondary school of the year. So what a journey you've been on and how did you manage to turn that school around?

Speaker 2:

The turnaround has been roughly, we went from less than two years being special measures and the most broken school in the country outstanding 2017 world-class skill quality, March, 2018 , and then secondary school. The year, last year, the national teacher was it's been a ratchet process rather than one thing. First thing is you have high aspirations and never compromise on the I'm going to do a job. And I want to do the very, very best for whatever job I have. And that's the high standards .

Speaker 1:

This sort of aspiration this vision, this belief in it is from you. It then has to be in the teachers. It's got to be in the pupils. It's got a run through the word aspiration, like a bar of rock. It's got to go right the way through the entire organization.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. And the next thing on that it's just mentioned is you've got to have the right people around, you said, recruit the right people. And by that, I mean, I don't mean academic qualifications. So I mean the people with the right attitudes in life and approaches to things without doing this, given the freedom to innovate and do the great things that can do, you're never going to get that rapid improvement, which we got at Cal and Bali . And to me, that was one of the key aspects that three other people to do, great jobs , um, and, you know, create that improvement. And I have a saying that , um, you know, having these great people around you, it makes me look better. So let me , I'm just interested .

Speaker 1:

What is your character type that enables you to bring in all of these other people and that you don't have any ego

Speaker 2:

From working class area sounds leads , but also in a, in a tough school , uh , which are desperation things. I had a bit of an inferiority complex, so I was never brought up with any , um , illusions of delusions of grandeur. I think I'm better than anyone else at all. We're all people doing jobs and , uh , treat everyone the same. And it's important to do with an , I see I'm just a person in the organization doing a job. And I always say that I'm a support member of staff. Part of my job is making sure I put the right systems in place to support everyone else so they can do the very best, the very best job possible. And everyone's treated the same opened up policy. I say, hello to everyone, speak to everyone. And we're all people who are part of that thing , doing a job and a genuinely mean that

Speaker 1:

Is the school you are now creating. Is that the school that you wished you had of gone to?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely correct . It's school . I went, so I honestly believe, notice that it was just five years of going somewhere because you couldn't have a job at that point until you could get a job. And that job would be working a mine, working a local factories, working in the building trades. Now all audible professional things, but no one talked to you about being anything better than that. And that built in me an inferiority complex. And I feel that other people, special people, so to speak did things. People like me just drifted through life. And I came to realize that's not true. Um, and it still sits with me now and imposter syndrome and things, and, you know, believe in other people are better. I'm not good enough, all those things. And that's what I want to make sure we're have count bond . All the students know that belief aspiration, how resilient not given you can attend the very best in life.

Speaker 1:

How did you then manage to go into teaching? Become a headmaster, become the CEO of this group of schools.

Speaker 2:

That was a bad boy at school. And the last thing I wanted to do was [inaudible] throughout my lack of aspiration in summer , speaking to me, I have potential clearly, but no one ever spoke to me that was, you know , a lot of the content is out there. So I drifted through, I went into a job in insurance insurance claims most of the claims, then it's out, I'll go to university. What I'm interested in. Well , it also was interested in sport, the sport science degree, they graduated in 91. Uh , you know, it was bad. It was poor financial times, the country, not many jobs. Um , you know, there weren't many graduate schemes, especially the people who had done a sport science degree. Um, so by before I dropped into teaching, because I could easily get into there with the , um, you know, the sponsor, great to be on fi teacher didn't want to do it, but I didn't use to get some bit of pay money. Um, then , uh , three, four years doing that, I got bothered . The teaching. One has to do a masters in business MBA a couple of years in industry, and then came back and were five years in senior leadership. And , uh, and the rest is history. And then, you know, and through certain differences roots , I found something that a lot of my interests have aligned now with business. You know, there's been an aspiration what the best for the students and it all comes together now. And this actually is the job that suits me

Speaker 1:

And I've done a , quite a Securitas route. I trained as a lawyer. I ended up working in the media, I set up a business and then I ended up in the job that I, I guess I should always have gone into, which was politics, but maybe it's because from certain backgrounds and certain social settings, you're not told of all the opportunities. So you do end up on going on a rather ponderous route. Now don't get me wrong. I've learnt a lot on the way, and I've enjoyed my life on that way. But I just wonder if I had of had a different sort of surroundings or a different set of people pushing me, telling me about different opportunities. I could have done it quicker and faster and got there maybe more easily,

Speaker 2:

Absolutely a hundred percent. You don't know what you don't know, do you , and you aren't aware of these opportunities when it comes to , we are lead your life and see what can be achieved and what I try to set about with cows and , and all the counters schools is to creating students that belief and awareness what's what's out there. So we talk about careers, right? From primary schools. Well , if you achieve how you could achieve them, bring inspirational speakers. They tell him , they give them the belief that can do that. And what we're about is creating what I call it , considered the Holy grail of teaching and education, which is when you don't have to say to a student, you must do this. If not, you'll get detention or they want to do the work because they know what education is about,

Speaker 1:

What are the first couple of steps that you have to do so that other people can get behind you and believe in your vision as well? Cause it's saying it is one thing you could read it in a book and it sounds great, but delivering it as something else. So, so tell us some of those key turning points.

Speaker 2:

People don't want to , to work with you. And, and don't buy into that. Uh , you know, the people who, you know, don't have , um, you know, the bullies, the egotists , the lazy , um, and things , the blockers, the negative, all those people as a leader, you have to go, sadly, you have to do it. That's one of the hard parts of the job, but you've got to get on with that one . You've got to develop the right systems as well. So you've got to get the right people in the organization and give them top quality systems, a firm to work with them . And I'll give you some examples. Sorry . I mentioned them , I think South as a support member of staff. So I thought what the teachers need to have to do the very, very best possible job in the classroom and a great working conditions. So what we did, we've made small class sizes. It's not counting Bali every year group in math and English and an average class size of 15, 16, second private school, half of most of the other secondary schools, 18 in science, 20 in all the other areas , 2022.

Speaker 1:

How did you do that, Adrian?

Speaker 2:

What we've , we've done this through , um, me and the other personnel managing the school's finances and get efficiency in the back office. So I have a saying , um, minimize back office to maximize the front office. It's about efficiency productivity and using the resource available, available to me the most effective manner. And another thing as well, we've done is , um, you know, in some schools you have teachers can't teach and they're happy cause of baby problems with very, very high standards on outstanding standards of behavior expected

Speaker 1:

Though , if somebody were , uh , was acting badly, playing up , somebody else would comment . So it's not the teacher then. So you have people going around the classrooms and then saying, this is not acceptable. And then what people get to understand that that is not acceptable. It's nipped in the bud. You are what removed from class sent home, given a detention, what do you do?

Speaker 2:

Try and stop anything which does arise now by being proactive. So they're going to craft every lesson, you know, on the know which, which potential teachers need support, which students need support. So they also practically go to those classrooms as well. I have good relationship with the fumes as well. And so they understand that and respect those those heads of years. So we practically try and prevent and things happening . Now, if they do arise in , it always will arise in all schools. What we're saying shin is it depends on the circumstance. If the stopping learning for the regrettable number of students in the class, it might be removable , but , but we try and keep them in class because when you're in class with your main teacher, that's when you do the most of your learning. So we try and protect that that's been compromised for the other students, then we'll fit them out. But every circumstance dictates different , uh , different , um, different responses for different students. So we keep it pragmatic within certain boundaries,

Speaker 1:

Key to you is discipline. And everybody knows the standards, which you will accept and those which you won't, and they will also know it . They are playing up. That could be a removal. And it sounds to me that, you know, your pupils very well, who might need extra support there too.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Yeah . Well , we have systems, you know , management permission system, which says what you wish students about issues where , so I had the, you know, given this and the can see way to , you know , um, put my focus. Uh , so we do know the way the students know the , uh , the standards very well and they're bought into them . Cause they realize that, that, you know, the generally very generally want to get them where the worker ambitions and the don't want other people's filing up . Um , you know, this is not, if you went around the school, you think it was [inaudible] , it was closed actually, when it's full time lessons that I'm good. So quiet , such a great working atmosphere, but that's how we protect that. I will sit a year . Your job is to make your job boring because everything

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. But it's been far from boring when you go from a special measure school to the country's best school. And you're going to say, and then there was point number three, where I point number three, I think you were going to come on too , before I delved in and got a little bit more information on the discipline, the

Speaker 2:

Tendency to follow what's always been done in any venture and education. And for me, I find that , um , meetings are often not needed. So we keep bureaucracy down to absolute minimum. So, you know , in some schools, teachers can't get anything done, the marketing , the planning of new of other lessons, cause we're in a meeting talking about it rather than doing it. I'm certainly doing rather than talking. So we only have one meeting per week in any week and it could be a parent's evening or it could be what we call development time, which is bespoke time where in faculties often can work and work on the priorities, which are particular to them. So when we do use that time focused and highly effective, productive training time , the rest of the week is open to them to plan and deliver high quality license . We're maintaining the, everyone's got to find that amount of energy in any job, whether it , whether useful and productive. So we make sure that time is filled maximally with the tasks which are effective and efficient planning and delivering high quality lessons on keeping the bureaucracy and the knowledge and the low, low, productive tasks to a minimum. So we , if I do all those three things have excellent behavior, minimal bureaucracy and meetings and the small class size . What else can I really give those to those teachers and support them? And beyond those three things, there's not really an excuses that are not giving good or outstanding results.

Speaker 1:

And you also said, if people didn't have that vision, then really it was the parting of , uh , your ways, because that was where the school was , was going. Now this, this, you know, excellence , uh, this outstanding achievement, all of which you achieved though, I did read in the papers and you can tell me if I'm right or not, when you did take over. And obviously the school had gone into special measures and the entire governing body was fired and replaced.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's true. And there'd been issues which predated me , um, for two or three head teachers about these fins from the governing body. And there , that was perhaps the, the major issue, which led to the, you know, the Trojan or , you know , it was liquid. It was linked with a shoulder notice with when that were out Rose in Birmingham. I'll give me a body was linked to it as well. And I think that was the thing which then brought in the inspectors and the special measures. And clearly that level of independence over the years had created problems in the school. Um, and this is what it was described the most broken school in the country. So it was building from that base level way . So there were massive problems there . And , uh , one of the things I think is important is I realized that I didn't have time in special measures. Your job is on the line. There's no doubt about that very difficult time. And if you don't produce things quickly and it can be replaced quickly and your career's over, and I wasn't prepared to go back to being a PE teacher in their mid forties, I'm not the only one would have anyway. Um, and so, you know, it's part of my character anyway, but if you've got problems in life, if your prompts to deal with, I had many problems there to no procrastinating, you've got to get onto those. Obviously you got to pick your moment , you know , politically to take on certain issues, but you should get on where you're from . You know, another thing problems don't go away generally only get worse. So you've got to get on with us because as soon as you've got those rectified, you've dealt with them. There's so many moving on and making improvements you're going to expect is to be prepared, to be a proper leader and take a few risks. If you follow everyone else and do what everyone else does, you just become another imitation those. And by definition, you like the crowd, he'd call them average off a poor version of average. So I think you've got to take credit to think to yourself, look at your circumstances, think what you need to improve and back yourself and take some calculated risks. And when I look back all those calculated risks of all accounts , and I'll give you an example of one, write this down . This would have been full to a turning point in our fault . After all the negative publicity, we were approached by the BBC radio five live to do a live radio broadcast in the school .

Speaker 1:

That's a dangerous thing. I wouldn't do. What's coming. I wouldn't do what's coming.

Speaker 2:

Um , and so I went to my, we didn't have governors and to the Robbins we had, what's called an interim executive board an AEB . I went the IEP and it was filled with some of the grant and go to the policy that they take . And I mentioned the one I've been approached . And I said, look, I think that we should do this. We should grasp this. It's , let's get some grit, you know , because the school , um , it's got such a bad reputation, how can it possibly get worse? It may be.

Speaker 1:

Yeah ,

Speaker 2:

It's honestly true it . And they also know that he could do it all the media is interested in the bad news. I felt, I don't believe that. I think he engaged with the media and there's good. Meagan there's bad media. You've arranged with a good media work with them, sort of came in. So I did it. I went out on a limb, did it, and that was the turning point and all that, the positive and the good things happening for counseling.

Speaker 1:

And so if you can turn round and you know, your school, is there any reason that other schools can't be turned round ? What is it stopping other failing schools, becoming , uh , exceptional schools,

Speaker 2:

It's all schools and all organization that potentially , and to do that, there are more difficult jobs. For example, he went to the center of how you going to , how they get in boss took a school on there . You've got everyone involved, parents, the tutors want to do it, and it's harder than an inner city at it , but I fully agree with it. If you go in with the same attitudes and the system we've brought in , uh , getting the right people and all the office mentioned there , uh, so we've got the right people in the correct systems . Great things can happen anywhere . It's harder in different circumstances. Um , but it's possible. And it's been proven actually , um, in my eight years has been ahead CEO of , of schools in that time, more than counts and bond I've been involved with of the places, some of those in special measures. Um, I can tell you about the first one was we first had chip , actually it was a school in Halifax. It took the substantial of the intake and the farmer writing school, which I think you remember infamously from the mid nineties as the worst school in the country. So at schools, from, from , uh , students substantially from, from that intake , uh, the, it just kind of special measures , uh , and was due for closure in 18 months time. So that, wasn't what I went into . I must have been crackers taking that on board. Um, but I did, I went in there with the two best results in the school's history in the final . So years out of special measures in 16 months. So I'm the first , um, for eight headship thought it couldn't get any harder . You have to be in that went to Cal calcium Bali, which we know the story that then three years ago, I was brought into salts out , uh , attracts which the mental health Pru in Shipley , uh , in the Bradford LA been special events for two years at that point there. So , uh , again applied the same principles to that. You're still over a year, they went to good out special measures , straight to good. And then the milk most recent job was the UARK university Academy in Catholic school that in its history is 10 year history. And previous predecessor had never been at least a good school. It was in one of Austrade's high profile research last year was one of the stock schools, which had never been at least a good school. I went in that , um, w at times of , uh , grit , uh, problems with industry relation with , with a teaching staff, particularly which leads to some high profile strikes in the, would you be two years ago today around this time two years ago, with picket lines and placards, aggressive ticketing and things less , the principal got off on a long term sickness, absence. I was brought in to answer the problems there . We had huge problems with finance and we stress in the egress in the school, half a million pound in your deficit each year , uh , which needed a turnaround . So it looked a bit like mission impossible. I thought, myself , what the hell am I doing this job for now? Uh, going in ad duties , done it again. But within 17 months, we got a good from it and were really substantial in your surfaces now. And , um , just the relationships . So good. I don't even know the union rep is in school anymore. So then two months with the team around me and the system that we brought in and the changes I've advocated, things have turned around .

Speaker 1:

What matters to you in life. Some people it's about social mobility , it's about fulfilling potential. What is important to you,

Speaker 2:

Both of those things, social ability and feeling fulfilled , fulfilling potential, you know, a , to crawl does of each other aren't things you want people to come fill the potential, and that then accelerate social mobility. So back to the experiences I had when I was at school, that has been the lack of aspiration and belief and the amount of wasted years, I think about not only me, but all the other content groups at those types of schools , I'm the beast . Those students being schooled now will miss out when they have that potential. And I'll give you one example. This started when I was in sixth form. So I drift into sixth form and they got to about may of me second year used to call it upper six, then [inaudible] , I won't mention his name. Um, and I've got to sort of know , can we come and see mr. Soandso and some great, it showed some interest in , in maybe in near talks about university or something, you know, lifted what I got that he wants to speak to because he had a friend who were on the caravan sales loft in the center of capital third . And he said, you're a good talker, Adrian, why don't you leave school? Now, go work with a salesman there. So he wanted to leave to leave with a month before my exams for air levels to go work with a salesman for the caravan, that sales pitch in capital . So that's the level of aspiration at a level.

Speaker 1:

Oh, how ? I mean, that's absolutely crushing. How did you feel when you left his office?

Speaker 2:

Well, I didn't , I pushed it all over and things. I didn't think about things too much. It's only reflecting on things. They realize what's been lucky, but take that now. Cause before, cause I'm determined that the students at Cal symbolic knew it was trust skills or the best experience possible. And if they don't make the success of the life, it's not because they weren't given the , the , uh , great education. They weren't given the aspiration in the guidance that was given me a awareness of what's out there it's because they didn't want to address those opportunities. And that'd be the only reason cause they will know I'm having the things and realize things. There were things that I wasn't

Speaker 1:

The reason I wanted you on this podcast to talk about education and COVID-19 is because of all of the experience that you've had, what you fought for. Um, and how do you see what's going to happen to a future generation of children? How do you see that we're best to tackle it?

Speaker 2:

It's a difficult one because we've got the two competing priorities of safety, health, and safety, and then the education, social mobility of the students. And so the government is in a difficult situation. It's Twitter, rocket, heart place in these two competing priorities because they are pretty much mutually exclusive. So it's a difficult one. Um , but as the numbers go down and we find more scientific evidence around to deal with coronavirus, we can do more in schools, but the two things seem to me to be mutually incompatible because we've got to do things still now that we think are still now serving students back . But schools are environments where social distance and it's just, it's something that interrupts the effective running of the school, you know, not all over the classroom numbers, but things such as, you know , um, we have a teacher learning methodology construct and running quickly. And then when they're doing the work, looking over the shoulder, seeing what they're doing, their immediate feedback. And so we can correct mistakes and move them on and improve learning immediately. I'm not stopped with that as well. So there are two humans and I do advise with Goodman in wrestling, these two competing priorities, and it's a difficult one, but I think all the time, the priority of the education, social mobility will become more prevalent as opposed to the health and safety as the students are off for a long time.

Speaker 1:

Um , what I also hear is kids from some of the poorest areas of public and , uh , suffer the most here. I look at the hours of education. They've had maybe one hour in some state schools per day, private schools have maybe been six hours. You also look at maybe the homes are from multiple kids, but maybe only one laptop, you might have it that both parents are out and working. So nobody they're enforcing the discipline that the child needs to do the education online. So what problems do you see coming forward? If we don't get children back into the classroom,

Speaker 2:

Do these serve to accentuate the gap there is between what they call the disadvantage issue as well from households , where, where there are these kind of socioeconomic problems and the other student, the non disadvantage students , because in school we can help direct women in school to remediate those problems. And the gap, in fact , in the County schools is vertical gap between the two groups anyway, but national groups that that performance has been narrowing. And you already there all over these time that the students are out of school, that gap will essentially because as you say , there's the richer parents and we'll do it with less. There's more advantages. We'll have the laptops . So I have a first one for work. I've paired it . So when the sound, the exams increasingly and things, and even the sports as students, so you can actually tutoring your parents, why those things aren't available until , uh , lots of families. I mean , there's lots of parents at council [inaudible] whose English speak English, or just say , Oh , certainly a second language. So the issue is that so that they are supportive , but the of offer that type of support and on a broader national scale, I will send, when you come to the council this year, I could see would these two years GCs these two year GCSE courses, we're going to take out at least a quarter that cost now for the current year sends once a year 11. I don't think it's fair to call that form . It's mostly negative and effected by that. And by definition, the schools and their performers will also be negatively affected . So for me, that has to be some sort of cabinet supply to at least 20, 21 results as well.

Speaker 1:

What , what solution have you come up with then ? How do you think you can get around this,

Speaker 2:

The next steps ? So they said, it'd be better. We can have some self consultation, full consultation with the people who know what delivery implications are. And then the next stage is workable rather than people go off to try and work on something which has no real chance of working.

Speaker 1:

And should they be back in school? Are you hoping or at aiming for them to all get back into school?

Speaker 2:

Well, I'm hoping I'm certainly open , you know , no one can think we see an optimal situation where students miss an education to this extent, but we are working with , uh , what the , the regulations that government , um, brings out in terms of health and safety and what we can do. I would hope, and maybe this is my wish for September the numbers of accrual of cases on such a level or level that we can pretty much have done without the, all these different measures and lockdown , whatever, all the measures that can help with that. And then go back to schooling , um, on, you know , a normal fashion without the social distancing, because that is the thing in my mind, which is creating all the problems, which instruct teaching is inherently a personal experience and social distance. It makes it impersonal a medium.

Speaker 1:

And whilst you're somebody who wants to get , make sure that the kids can get back to school , um , you know, people will be saying left-wing teaching union seemed kind of quite anxious to do the opposite and to stop people going back into school.

Speaker 2:

I can only judge your mind . I've met him . And , uh, I'm not, I'm , I'm unsure of that. I control I can control. And I'm not sure I'm not sure of the prevailing political aims of on a national level of unions, but I can understand that their job, their raised on better, their reason for existence is to support their members and health and safety. So I do understand that, and there are concerns with people, you know, 15 with preexisting conditions. So if they're protecting those within the , um, within the , um, the confines of the legislation and the game has grown , but I can understand that. And , um , from my perspective, I've had no issues with the unions around my school , uh , doing anything silly . I can , I can understand why they're doing things and they've been reasonable with me.

Speaker 1:

We're looking now nationally at an issue of black lives matters. We're looking at an issue of people not feeling they've got the right opportunities in life, feeling the impacts of racism. How do you think you've dealt with that? How do you think as a country, as a government, we can look at those issues of racism and try and get a marker . He subs society

Speaker 2:

Well [inaudible] , um, accounts and bond Uak anywhere we go, the culture of me and the school where it needs . We just treat everyone the same with respect and dignity and an awareness of different cultures and different needs and , uh, you know, and priorities. I mean, if you just respect those. And so if you, if you, whenever you call whichever people you deal with, if you pick those, those principles broadly mind , um, you'll get on with everybody. And that's what we're doing at Calton in every school. Uh , I never wanna meet, you know , professional life or personal life. So we don't have that also problems of aspiration, not the gala and either council ball Uak. We wants to give him the best opportunity in life. So we've clearly we'll do more if we need to do to make awareness out a problem with [inaudible] we use PayPal and we don't see any difference when we look at essentially the similarities as opposed to looking for difference. Cause I believe there's far more similarities and difference between people far, far more on a national scale. Um, you know, the soundbar on the South coast I've been involved heavily with tasks in your tenant moves. Um, a leader is the founder and leader of a charity and scheduled therapy told , uh, when Britain will mission , which is about celebrating , uh , all peace that the British all people getting behind the flag , um , and things we're celebrating. What's good about the concept of bringing people together. And , um, we've worked with Castlight right from the start and it's still the last thing that magnificent conservational work is still . And what some people will say is the most difficult communities in the country. And it's been fantastic work all divided by itself is only year , but you resulted behind that. Um, and it's gone from Rapids and liberal authorities as to me, it's time for the all bonds we take to a national scale, that it gonna have a huge impact in these difficult times now where people are seeing those differences and we need to start things . And Lois is enough for all bonds are down .

Speaker 1:

Now, I'm going to ask you a question, Adrian, if you could have a conversation with yourself back at school aged, I don't know, 12, 13, what would you say to the older you are wish, Oh, I'm glad you've achieved or I'm glad you've learned, or you now speaking to you as a little boy, what would you say you must do at school?

Speaker 2:

I would have said this thing you need to be aware of is , is really look at the opportunity you've got in life and realize that you can attain anything or within reason within reason that you want to do with hard work and belief and determination, and that all people can achieve. And not just people from what I saw as either , you know , as a kid, as a young boy, as a posh areas or privileged, special people anyone could achieve. And I put that, I'd put that thought in my head and that achievement and discipline is what's needed to do, huh . Um, and then at a, at a move forward and worked hard and that are far more focused than it has for many years. And it was essentially drifting around my mid, late twenties , um, out of , out of existence. And one of my favorite films that is the Shawshank redemption and there's the, and there's the character Redding . And he talked about how he liked to go back in time and talk to his younger self and tell him about life. And it tells me your calm down and what it would do wrong, but he said he can't go back and do that. I, you know, I have some of that feelings now and I wake up and I think you wasted this, you could've done this kind of the Maui sports. And it was a lack of belief. I put it down to a lack of belief that I couldn't believe that someone else did this and that , you know , crawl away . I wouldn't put the work in. People will not put work into something. They don't think they can be successful, deal with situation . You can now do it to get all the worries of the world. He showed the deal. Well , you can deal with proactively . They're controlling that then and move forward. And in time you will get out of it.