028: WetPixel's Adam Hanlon

Adam Hanlon is the owner and editor of WetPixel, the largest online community for underwater photographers.  In our chat, he shares how went from being a part of the WetPixel community, to meeting the company's founder, Eric Cheng, and eventually taking over the reigns as editor of the community.  We also talk about WetPixel's new YouTube series "WetPixel Live", which he does with regularly with Alex Mustard. 

We cover tons of fun personal stories, share some of his favorite places to dive, and look at a few of his favorite photos. Check out the show notes to see the pictures referenced in this episode:

Adam Hanlon Show Notes
You can also watch our interview on YouTube

Check out Adam and Wetpixel’s social media accounts and be sure to give them a follow.  He’ll be happy to tell you more about Wetpixel, diving around the world, marine conservation and more!

• Website – wetpixel.com
• Instagram – wetpixelgram
• Facebook – Wetpixel
• Twitter – wet-pixel
• Diving Education: The Dive School @ Capernwray

(All pictures courtesy and copyright of Adam Hanlon)

Transcript

Introduction

Todd 0:08

Welcome to the Aquatic Life, a podcast about diving, underwater photography, and adventure travel. I'm Todd Reimer, and with me as always is Dalton Ham. Well, today, guys, we've got a fantastic podcast for you. Adam Hanlon, the owner and editor of Wet Pixel Community, the largest underwater photographer community that's out there, is our guest today, and we are stoked to chat with him about everything you've ever wanted to know about Wet Pixel, how it got started, how the community grew to be such an amazing resource, how Adam got involved with it and all the exciting offerings that are going on today. Really is uh Royal Chief of the underwater photography community. We're super excited to talk to Adam, learn more about him too, and how he really got involved in diving and what he's been up to today and all of his exciting stories. So uh it's gonna be a great chat. Have a listen, and why don't we just get this thing started? Here we go. Welcome to the show, everybody. Thanks for joining us, Adam. How's it going?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Hi, yeah, it's good. Thank you. How are you guys? Doing good, doing good.

Todd 1:28

Good. Adam's joining us from the UK. Thanks for uh getting up and staying up so late for us, Adam.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

I think I think it's rather more thanks to you guys for getting up early, really.

Todd 1:40

But but yeah, whichever way around. It's nice to be here. It's great to meet you too. Well, uh for uh our listeners, Adam, why don't you give everyone a brief intro and tell us about yourself?

SPEAKER_03 1:51

So I'm I'm uh I'm I've been a diver for a very long time. Um I'm uh an underwater photographer, and I'm also the owner and the editor of WetPixel, which is a resource for for underwater image makers on the internet, um, on the web. And so I sort of divide my time between taking pictures, certainly normal times, maybe I should say. I divide my time between taking pictures and and and then uh trying to help out people in the Wet Pixel community.

Todd 2:18

Well, we have talked on many, many episodes about WetPixel and uh how we're huge fans and we try to tell everyone about it because it's a community that both Dalton and I grew up on and and loved. And we'll definitely get into the the history of Wet Pixel and and and all that other stuff too, but but I don't want to get into that right away. Let's delve into uh a little bit of Adam at first. How when let's talk about how did you even get started diving? Like give us your background. I know you had mentioned you you were you were born in South Africa, uh, but now we're so how long ago did you even start diving? What inspired you to even start getting into diving and then underwater photography?

When Adam First Got Into Diving

SPEAKER_03 2:58

So I think Cousau was probably to blame actually originally. I mean, as a really young kid, Cousteau's programs were on TV, um, and I was fascinated by them. And and and I think he was probably that's where the seed was started. But then, yeah, I grew up in South Africa, and um in those days, certainly this is in the 80s or the 70s and 80s, you couldn't actually become you couldn't dive until you were 18. That was you had to be 18 years old. So um I used to go spearfishing a lot and I I'd go and uh and catch fish. And one of the places I went to um were catching fish are guys on scuba diving, and well, quite often they were, and and one of the guys just happened to say, Do you want to try diving? And I said, Sure, why not? Um and he pretty much did he um he pretty much said don't hold your breath and remember to utilize a lot, so I did. And it was, I have to say, one of the weird things was and and I use this quite a lot when I'm when I'm talking to people about diving, is is I vividly remember being underwater. I I remember being underwater breathing and thinking that was a bit odd because I wasn't used to breathing underwater. Um I don't actually remember what I saw, but I do remember it feeling really cool. So so it was it was kind of like you know, this whole idea of breathing underwater, being underwater and breathing was really, really cool. And and and I wanted more of it. And that was so that was late '83. So I went and did uh the cheapest scuba course I could find. We learned by our mistakes. Um yes, indeed. And that was that was a CMAS course.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

That's why I was wondering if it was CMAS.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Yeah, in '84. And then later on I I discovered actually that actually cheap wasn't a good idea, and actually learned how to dive properly with um an Aui school. Um and I became an I was an AWE instructor in 987 actually. So I I yeah, um and and then and then since that I mean I've worked with lots of different agencies, but but um but yeah, that was the beginnings of it.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

I knew I was in good company. I'm a Naui instructor myself.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

Yeah, so so I I did my Nowie ITC in Cape Town, and I I don't know how well you know South Africa, but but I'm from Natal, which is Walmart, you know, blue, blue Walmart, and we shifted down to Cape Town to do this instructor exam. And I had a I think it was probably a five-minute wait suit, and I spent the whole course completely frozen. Freezen, yeah. I it was it was desperate. Um I think I was hypothermic through most of it, but it seemed to pass, so it's gonna be that bad.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

That sounds that sounds relatively familiar. Todd and I did um rescue diver and a and an open water course here in California years ago. It was similar. We rented a wetsuit that really didn't fit properly, and I think the water temp is probably better than it was there, but it was like probably 67 degrees, 66 degrees. And you know, just like similarly to over there, you know, for every 10 feet you go down, you lose a degree of temperature. So by the time we were doing our skills at 40 feet, you know, it's like 62 or 60.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah, it gets it gets chilly quick.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Yeah, no, it's uh it was it was cool. I mean, I I I have to say I've subsequently discovered dry suits and I don't really have well, I still have problems with cold, but I've I've learned how to deal with it. But that was uh it was um it was tough at the time.

Todd 6:09

Now that you're in dry suits, you're uh probably never going back unless it's over uh a one mil or or something or something.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Well, yeah, I kind of like that. I kind of you know I I do own a five mil somewhere, but I very rarely wear it. You know, if I do a five mil, I wear a dry suit. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yeah, the the days of us putting on a seven mil are are gone, man. Yeah, like the Staypuff Marshmallow man in one of those.

Todd 6:32

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. When

Adam's Introduction to Underwater Photography

Todd 6:35

did you first pick up a camera, get the inkling that you might want to try underwater photography, Adam?

SPEAKER_03 6:40

Actually, very similar timing. The the guys, so the guys that that I did the Nowie instructor course through, and I did my Nowie training through, the instructor that kind of basically almost kind of took me under his wing was an all photographer, and and that's where it all started. And I bought so so again late 87, I bought a Nikonus 5 and shot with that for quite a few years. And that I and had various other things along the way, but CSC Motor Ray is various other bits and pieces, but but yeah, you know, that and that was the start of it. So and and and ironically, and it shows you what a change it was. So in the late 80s in South Africa, I basically knew everyone who was taking pictures underwater because there was about seven or eight of us, you know, and and that was it. It just shows you how times have changed where pretty much everyone takes pictures underwater now. Um but at the time, you know, and particularly in South Africa, which wasn't the center of the universe. So I and I went through all the stuff with film, you know. I used to shoot slide film because because I I didn't sell images and stuff, so so I would um you know, you'd send them all off. You I'd go on a trip somewhere and you'd shoot 20 rolls of film or whatever, send them all off to be processed as slide film particular South Africa, they'd all come back six weeks later and they were all underexposed, overexposed, out of focus. And you'd check them all away and you'd go again. It was, you know, I went went through it all like everybody else did.

Todd 7:51

For those of us, at least from an underwater perspective, that didn't grow up having to shoot film while underwater, much less slide film, right? It's like there is no latitude to get your to get your settings wrong. I can only imagine how difficult.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

And not just that. I mean, there's a there's no room for for air, but B, there's only you know a a couple of dozen shots you might be able to take.

Todd 8:16

Yeah, right, yeah. You got your your role of 24 to 36. I don't know what it was back then. 36, yeah, 36.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so 36 positions. I mean, I mean, a lot of the pros at that stage, what they'd do is they'd have multiple cameras, yeah, and they'd have someone, so they'd shoot the roll of film and then take it up to the surface, and then someone would come brings bring the next roll of film, yeah, the next camera back down. So, so you know, they would that and that that's how they managed to get the number of shots. Um, right, but but I mean, I certainly I was never in that league, so yeah, it was 36 exposures, and that was it. Then I was then I was out of there.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's come a long way, man. Uh mentioned you earlier, I do sports and I cover a lot of um, I do a lot of commercial photography, advertising photography as well. Back in the day, you only had 36 shots, and and that was if you were shooting the same environment the whole time. You know, if you needed to change film speed or you needed to change to black and white.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

I mean, I think there's like everything, there's there's pros and cons to everything. But I think that that discipline of trying to get it right in camera, of of of trying to nail the beak of the action rather than being able to shotgun it, you know, to spray, pray. Yeah, and I I I mean I appreciate probably the end result probably doesn't actually vary that much, but I think it's quite a good discipline to have. Um absolutely um, you know, photographically I don't regret those days, although they were very challenging.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

But yeah, um, yeah, no, that those those days have really, I mean, uh, even when I do workshops or I I talk to friends about photography, and the first thing I do is like get it right in camera, you know. I'm like, yeah, I'll be on set and they'll be like, oh, well, can't you just do that in Photoshop? It'll take like a minute. And I'm like, yeah, but it'll take me 30 seconds to go move that piece of trash right now or move that suitcase or whatever it is out of the way. And I'm like, but you guys don't understand is that where it'd only take a minute or two in Photoshop now, back in the 90s when Photoshop first came out, you would do something and it would take you you know half an hour. Go make a couple exactly. You would run you'd run a you'd run a filter in Photoshop back then and you'd go to lunch, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Todd 10:29

I think this is the underwater photography version of I had to walk a mile in snow to get the glass.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

But we were all better off for it because I have to say though, I yeah, so the other side of it is that I I was actually kind of falling out of love with photography, uh, and particularly underwater photography, actually. So and and the digital era has brought brought the love back. So it's not simple to harp back to that bygone era when, oh, it was great because we only had you know this and this, and we managed to make these amazing images, and yeah, there's no doubt that that digital imaging and and all the other stuff that's come with it, the ability to share images easily, the ability to that's made it just a so much more enjoyable pastime. Absolutely and an easier profession, possibly, but still, I think we shouldn't underestimate that as as as as a as progress, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Oh, absolutely not. And I and I was one of the one of the guys that held out personally. I mean, I I held out on digital for a long time until I bought a Fuji S1 Pro, I think was the Oh yeah, yeah. So it was like a it was Nikon-based camera, but Nikon F mount, yeah. Yeah, but it was uh put out by Fuji and it it I think it was something silly. I think it was like uh five megapixels or something like that. It wasn't very much.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

But but it actually the S the S1 or the S2, I can't remember, actually had a TTL protocol that you could push out through the hot shoe. Yeah, so so you could actually use it with TTL strobes, yeah, which was which was unique. And at the time, you know, that was that was a big deal because the vast majority of stuff you you you you were back on span, you're on and people wanted TTL. Um, and so you know, and and that was a that was a it was quite a unique thing, those those those S I think it was the S2 Pro actually, but but maybe S1 could as well. But yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great. It was a good camera, actually. Yeah, yeah.

Todd 12:20

Dalton's actually going backwards now. He just told me he's buying a co buying a Kodak Brownie, so I I don't know what's happening over there.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

The housing that's the problem at the moment. Exactly.

Todd 12:35

Exactly. You got into underwater photography the same time. From that point on, you were in love with it and it just built from there.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

Yeah, like I say, I shot a lot through the 80s and then and then I moved I moved to the UK in in the early 90s and and it was cold and you know. Um and actually to be fair, between I'd gone I'd worked in in Egypt uh in the Red Sea and various other places along the way. So so although it had to be a lot of fun. Yeah, early early 90s in in Egypt was was very cool, you know.

Todd 13:07

Were you doing diving and and photography as part of at least as full-time work uh for your for your job, Adam? Or were you doing doing support yourself?

SPEAKER_03 13:16

I was a dive bum, I was dive guide, so I was just guiding dives as an instructor and you know, and and you know, usual way didn't make any money, but but had a good lifestyle.

Todd 13:24

So but living the good life, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Um so so so I I and I did that and then and then I moved to the UK and one of my other passions at the time was always mountaineering. And I kind of did a lot of mountaineering at in that time as well, which which in the UK is is was uh I what I saw as being quite a sensible option. Um and then and then I kind of rekindled my sort of my my diving. I I I went on a trip to multiple places actually in about 95, 96. Um and that I I and that kind of really got me going again, and I started shooting again. I dug the counters out for a while and then I then gradually shifted over onto digital um as as digital started to happen. That was the same sort of stuff we were talking about, adultery, the same sort of process, really. Although I actually started compacts, um I started compact digital cameras.

Todd 14:12

As did we, yeah, actually. We we were underwater setups. We were Olympus SP350s was our first.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Well, I had SP350, but before that I had um I had a Rico and I had another one before I had a I had a so my first kind of proper compact was the SP350, which is great cameras actually. Oh, it was yeah, that that combination we had to shoot raw and having manual exposure control was was actually really unique. And and ironically, the 550 didn't have the manual exposure control, I think that's right. So that's so so the SP350 was a better camera for anyone.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

And the and the hot shoe, it had it was one of the only compacts with a hot shoe on it. Is that yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

You know, it was also really cool because people started developing this kind of ecosystem add-on lenses as well. So so I you know, I had I had an in-on um wet fish eye and an in-on macro lens that had a bracket that went underneath the camera. Everyone looks at that now and goes, Well, of course. But at the time that was actually quite new and exciting. So it's groundbreaking, yeah. Yeah, I went through that whole process and then uh SP350, and then my next camera I bought ironically was an Icon D2XS. So I went from yeah, that's a big job. Yeah, and um, and and and I actually I bought it off the Wet Pixel Forum. It was someone was advertising the Wet Pixel Forum, and it was it was a it was a good deal, so so I bought it. Um Exactly, and that was that was the beginning of the end. I've I've never had any money since, you know.

Todd 15:31

So yeah, well, I think we all have similar stories, and I think also uh WetPixel got were involved for all of us right around the same time then.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

So I had a I had a couple more questions about as far as when you had your Nokonos and your um when you switched to compact and all that were you running still running lights then? I mean, did you have like the old Nikonos light and did you switch to INons with the SP350 or CNC or anything?

SPEAKER_03 15:58

The SP350 I had C and C's actually. I had a Y YS90, um, and I had one originally, and then I bought a second one. And and as it happened, I I I was the the there was the UK supply. I got I think it was a YS 180. Um I might have that. Anyway, I I had I had I had CNC stripes, um, and then the in ons came because the Z240 I think came out after that. My first INO strike was E240s, um but that would have been I already had the the D2X ST by then, so it would have been yeah, it would have been after that. Um but I and I had I originally had an SB105 with the Nik with the Nikonus. Okay um um but actually that that I I think I I I flooded it and um and it was recovered, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

So yeah, I think uh Todd's been there with that, haven't you, Todd? Did you flood one of your um icolites?

Todd 16:58

I flooded uh a DS51 strobe, but luckily it was uh a cheap fix guys at Icolite are awesome about that.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, not hopefully I'm the only one in this group that has uh flooded a housing.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Well, there's uh I'm I'm afraid that this the the the short answer is that there's there's no one hasn't flooded a housing yet. Right. Yeah, that happens to everyone, yeah.

Discovering the WetPixel Community

Todd 17:23

We all we're all around those days kind of uh also discovered it sounds like Wet Pixel, right around the time we all had our SP350s and we're wanting to know more about digital underwater photography, and all of a sudden this this magical community wet pixel showed up in our lives, and it sounds like right around the same time.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Is that like around 2005, Adam? Was that I think I think I think I'd show you 2003, but yeah, it was it was yeah, roundabout then. Certainly I I wasn't particularly active to start off with so the history of Wet Pixel there's this sort of what what sort of happened with Wet Pixel was there was a bunch of people globally really um who were using digital cameras underwater, but essentially no one really knew what they were doing, and and some of them had backgrounds in film, you know, some of them didn't, but there was a big sort of gap in the knowledge of how to shoot digital cameras underwater. And it started off as a bulletin board, it started off, you know, this is this was that that was the way things were in those days. It was just a straightforward bulletin board and people sharing eyes and experience, and that that's where it grew from. And in actual fact, kind of Eric kind of picked it up. Eric Eric Chung, too. Chang, uh Eric Chang, excuse me. So so so so and Eric kind of picked it up and built it up and developed it into into the into much more of a community-based resource. But um certainly it started off really, and I'm gonna be rude, but there's a bunch of geeks, you know, basically sharing information on on how to take pictures under order, because people weren't doing it. And and and to some extent, I mean, I don't know whether I can call the Wet Plus community a bunch of geeks, because I'm not sure that's true anymore. But but um but uh but button.

Todd 18:57

It's kind of complicated now, isn't it? Yeah, it is, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

So so but I mean that's really in many ways is what the WebSock's community still is, is you know, it's it's a bunch of people getting together to try and solve problems that we have in common. Um, and and you know, I think that's something it's its strength, it still does that really, really well. Um, there's a huge body of information on there, um historical information, but also it's kind of a place where you know you can put a question on there and and and inevitably you get a bunch of answers. And and that that's that's a really cool thing to have, isn't it? You know, for sure.

Todd 19:30

It's really the heart of what WetPixel was all about. I I know where I transitioned was there was another thing, scuba board. Um I don't know if you're right, it was the same thing, and there was a small photography forum on scuba board back in the day, but there was just not that that many people doing it, so you couldn't find any answers there. Right. Uh, and then when Wet Pixel came around, it was like, oh my god, there's all these people that have so much information. It was it was like, okay, here's my new home. We're those geeks that want that have found their place to come home to, you know. So and and and to this day, it's still the heart of it. It in my mind, the forums are amazing.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

So it's a very supportive venue. There's very, very I mean, I mean, I've been a moderator on the forum now for 15 years. And you know, the number of the number of problems we have to sort out where people are being rude to each other, it you know, it's almost almost never happens. I mean, it's not it has happened, never be it will, but it's it's very, very rare. And it's really supportive. You know, generally people go on there, they look looking for feedback, they're looking for information, and people very generously give their time and experience to to try and help out. And I you know, I I think it's a real tribute to to the underwater imaging community, really, in how supportive they are about people you know who are who are coming in to try things out, or people that are trying stuff out and you know having problems. I think it's it's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Absolutely. I think I think the one of the great things about just the dive community in general is that everybody's really uh friendly. And I think that that you know carries over to WetPixel and even on on Scuba Board and some of the others as well. It's just I just think that community is such a fantastic community to be part of.

Todd 21:10

Yeah, yeah. So how many members do you think Wetpixel has nowadays?

SPEAKER_03 21:14

I I checked this morning and we have about 32 and a half thousand registered members, which is a pretty pretty cool number. Yeah. Um I think that the metric is a little bit skewed and and and we we have a uh in common with all the forums at school board, I know suffering the same problem. We're all but social media is presenting new challenges. And you know, the numbers game on social media can be pretty amazing, you know. Um I I there's there's there's one photography underwater photography resource on on Facebook that claims to have a hundred thousand likes. And uh it it just is it it doesn't exist. That that it's not possible. And and sadly, of course, we all know that you know you can obtain those kinds of things by buying them, effectively. You know, if I if I throw a bunch of money at Facebook, I'll get a bunch of likes. And but it doesn't mean those likes have any value, and that's problem you know we've got the workplace community of 32 and a half thousand people those people have all gone out of the way they've all registered they've all signed up they've all submit gone through the process of actually validating their their their email and and then making a post in the forums you know it it's not a simple kind of like I'll click here because I like it it's it's um and that I think that's that has that has some sort of meaning as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

And I'm sure you guys have uh a ton of other people that come and visit the site that aren't registered yet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

So yeah there are metrics on that too but but I I I think I think the I think the the great thing and and and what's really important about WebPix is this idea that it is a community you know and and and I'm very very keen to keep it as as a community that of a group of people that basically help each other out and share ideas, share you know problems they've had, that kind of thing. Because I think that's what it should be. And that that's that's I think that's what it you know what it's really good at.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

So yeah no it's it's a fantastic resource. I think it's probably the the best online resource for underwater photography the that I've seen.

Todd 23:09

Do you remember Dalton the first time like I I kind of have burned in my brain when I first discovered Wet Pixel when I must have searched for it. I'm like oh my God. And I think it was right around the time so Eric was running it back then and it was right around the time Eric's his he had a picture of this baby turtle that's now quite famous like put Eric as his photographer on the map um where it's just very close up and it's got this crazy wide eyed expression as fin up he's like ah right and and what got circulated and so like oh my god he's he's runs this awesome site and blah blah blah and I'm like I'll like find more about Eric and all his amazing pictures and I go to his site and I think she's like well I play the cello and I do all this I'm like what I don't I'm not I don't what I'm like well this is awesome what this cello player and it's everything music and blah blah blah but then all of a sudden there's this amazing forum that he had started and and then I fell in love and I was on that I was on the forums all the time reading as much as I could and learning as much as I could and it was it was just it was great. But I just remember that photo and then I'm like this guy Eric and he plays the cello and then I think it was right around the time he was going to Tiger Beach to then take all these videos of the time and that's kind of when I I when I first really got really involved and and fell in love with that trade.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

The other thing about Eric I mean Eric's an incredibly he he's he's he's he I think he's probably the brightest guy that I know I I don't I don't know that's uh that's probably unfair to some other people but but he's a super super bright guy um he's got this incredible kind of diverse skill base but but on top of it all he's a really really nice guy and that's you know you know it it's just whenever you interact with him and I don't know if you had the opportunity to write to me it's just he's just really really nice guy.

Todd 24:48

So how did you end up going from a a guy that like me just discovered WetPixel and started using the forum to meeting Eric and then having that transition from being just uh one one of us to all of a sudden saying hey I'm gonna I'm gonna transition and take over to run that what tell us that that story.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

So so I think I think really again it revolves around Eric to some extent in that in that Eric you know um basically was reaching a point in his life where he wanted to to get married he wanted to have kids um he he felt that he should be establishing a more conventional career I'm putting that as words of his mouth but I'm assuming that's the case. So basically he needed to help running the site and he advertised for an editor and it was as simple as that. So so I responded to the advert and and and I got the job and I started off as the editor and um primarily posting stuff onto the work at the front page but also and and from that we see moderating the forums and and all the other stuff. And I've did that for quite a few years. Gradually Eric's life was was becoming more you know he he went he worked for Life Tro for a while and then for DJI quite sort of famously and then and then moved on to Facebook which is where he's now and you know his life was obviously becoming more complicated I suppose you know two kids you know and so it was a it it was a natural thing really that that rather than keeping the decision making process between albeit a fairly tight group it made sense to to move it on. So so yeah I I bought the site from Eric um at the end of 2018 and and so yeah now I own it and publish it and everything else. I think that's kind of it was a very organic process in that you know you mentioned meeting Eric I didn't I actually worked for Eric for six years before I met him which just shows you the times we live in so literally six years. I mean obviously we Skype we did all the other stuff that we do these days but but I actually physically met him um and does he um you so you bought WetPixel in 2018. End of 2018 does he still contribute to to wet pixel or he's he's kind of he's got he's got a a a sort of back what's the word um you know he's always there if I need him he's always there he'll help out but he kind of keeps himself in the background he's not doing horror shooting underwater at the moment I think just because of time and family and that kind of stuff. And but I I you know I think the way Eric views it's probably you know once the kids are a bit older and and and life stabilizes out he'll probably loop back around to it which I think is probably what he'll do.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

And and then at that point you know I'm sure he'll be back and more involved and certain certainly he's still he still is is he's an advisor to WetPixel and and um certainly if I've got a problem I I generally tend to Skype him around him. So yeah we have a really we have a good relationship we have good communication so yeah that's awesome that's fantastic.

Todd 27:38

Yeah so now you still is it primarily for article creation and content creation and moderation is it primarily just you or do you have a small staff that that help you uh run run the ship there?

SPEAKER_03 27:50

So content creation is primarily me although having said that I mean we we welcome and solicit content submitted by other people. So it's an editorial role rather than a necessarily a creation role. I mean I yes sure you know you know press release and stuff I I I post most of that stuff out and the the forums themselves we have we have team moderators obviously moderate it and you know very active keeping keeping everything everything running smoothly on there. Yeah I mean it it is primarily me the good news is I I'm I'm I'm don't actually do it full time I have a dive school here in the UK as well so so I still teach people to dive the two are you know I I can manage both so um and and and they kind of complement each other in some ways as well so that's still like having two full-time jobs it's gotta be it kind of is yeah yeah but I I mean I've I haven't got any kids and you know and and it's two full-time jobs in both in areas that I really love so right it's right it doesn't feel like going to work every morning if you know what I mean so it's yeah oh no for sure and it's not like it's two different full-time jobs it's not like you're cooking at one and you know typesetting at another you know it's yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm I'm I'm I I I I I think I think they're pretty complimentary.

Todd 29:02

I'm not saying it's not busy it is busy but but it's good busy not not not uh not that busy so no exactly exactly that's awesome

Moderation Stories

Todd 29:10

you brought up that you're occasionally in the community have to step in as uh to some issues i with I would are there any interesting stories like not not to bow bad mouth community members but just entry interesting funny stories or that you can think of in your job as editor and to have to to manage 32000 very passionate photographers that I'm sure we can be opinionated in some kinds any stories that pop out anyway that you can share there was there was a there was a wonderful story about a particular gentleman um who um was had told everyone that he was so so he was espousing on the forums a particular brand of housing um and singing their praises um and so the rule on on wet pixel was that that as long as you're overt so so you know if someone says this person's give me a housing and you say I've got this housing for free I'm now going to talk say nice things about it that's fine you know because everyone knows the sort of value of the advice that you're providing he told everyone that he'd been given the housing and and then proceeded to write nice things about it.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

So I I had to get involved and say you can't do that and he said oh I bought the housing and and it turns out that he decided that to wind everyone up who would that he would in other words to play a prankler he told her it was a free housing it wasn't a free housing but so that that got kicked around and got very complicated because because everyone was now saying oh no you told me you gave me a housing I don't yeah so no that's the kind that that's the most frequent kind of stuff I mean at the end of the day you're dealing with people and people you know different people do behave in different ways. I'm sure there are better stories than that.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

I just now you put me on the spot I can't think of any of them and oh sorry I figured I figured most of them would be you know Nikon's better than canon.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Yeah the best other two of the best stories and this is this is yeah this is a good story is we did it we so the first uh

Lembeh Underwater Shootout Without Housings

SPEAKER_03 31:01

workshop that uh Alex Must and I ran it ran in Lember in 2013 yes um and we ran a workshop and we had it was just before vacuums had become commonplace and we had on that trip we had three camera floods like oh wow terminal camera floods um and so lember sand got in there and did its thing so so we decided at the end of it we were gonna run a spoof article and what we do is we take the cameras without housings underwater and shoot a sequence of pictures of people taking pictures with these taking pictures with these flooded cameras so so we did this and got these pictures and and I build it out as the ultimate can versus the contest and all those kind of I mean it was just a bit spoof oh feedback I mean we had to like so start off like how can you deliberately flood these cameras when I can't even afford a camera myself you know we had to put a warning at the bottom saying no cameras were harmed in the making of this article because everyone assumed well lots of people seem to assume that we deliberately take cameras underwater to get the picture and the comments I mean and they got really really angry at me already they've broken before it's a joke yeah that's that's so that had to be even knowing they were broke that still had to be slightly painful.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah I just I can't I just can't imagine taking even broken I'm like I would be like it it it just seems so wrong.

Todd 32:39

One of them was the Nikon D800s I mean I well there was a 5D Mark III or four and whatever they were good cameras you know they were expensive cameras yeah and and um the the magnesium in the bodies actually starts fizzing it's a little bit disconcerting i i didn't I didn't know this was gonna happen of course so so I I got this guy doing lens changes underwater taking the lens off the lens and showing everyone how we could change lenses underwater you know to get different why everybody's paying often I realized there was all this like fizz going up from inside the camera not sure we should be doing that what do explosions look like underwater let's find out yeah that's funny that's crazy we'll have to we'll see if you can dig up some of the uh footage from from that uh from that incident so I'm sure it's out around somewhere that's awesome yeah it is yeah the the comments is the funny bit but yeah yeah right yeah exactly so you mentioned Alex uh and and Lembe one of my one of my favorite places

WetPixel Live

Todd 33:37

to go recently in the last few months you and Alex kind of teamed up to do uh this wet pixel live youtube series recently first of all before you get with this another thing that Dalton and I tend to meant bring up Alex's name quite a bit because we're big fans of his as well how did how did Alex get involved has he has he always been involved with Wet Pixel when did he jump on with you or do you have a relationship with him?

SPEAKER_03 33:59

So Alex actually I think Alex was a wet pixel member oh he was definitely a wet pixel member before I was um right and in fact he was involved right at the beginning so so he was he was still probably still at that point still at university still uh still in his university career and um and I think so so certainly yeah he was involved quite a long time before I was uh and was a moderator and and was always very very active on the forums um and and also writing articles for WetPixel and has always been he's been very much uh he's an associate editor wet pixel and and and has been been involved and still is sort of almost in parallel there were a couple of projects we collaborated underwater photography projects we collaborated actually here in the UK and uh we collaborated on it and that was that was sort of almost well the the first one was simply the venue that I used for a lot of my diver training was he wanted to come about some some remote strobe stuff up here and so we got together and and to be honest we became friends and that that's that's sort of where it started.

Todd 34:52

And him and I have collaborated on all sorts of stuff now including you know workshops and and and everything else he is my favorite underwater photographer um in in terms of his work and and you know I'm and we're we're friends basically so so it's it's an easy relate it's an easy relationship to kind of build on really yeah it's funny I think I first discovered Alex's I think he wrote one of the chapters in Martin Edge's book The Underwater Photographer The Big Encyclopedia I think he did it on super macro or something like that and I'm like man this guy's amazing I I don't remember him as part of the community but before then but but yeah once I discovered work I was like you know uh it was amazing and his scientific mind behind behind getting everything set up it was yeah it was really cool.

SPEAKER_03 35:35

It's what it was one of the things I think about the forum and and this is still the case you know is that because a lot of people hide behind pseudonyms which is fine you know that's that's the nature of forums and you you know you sometimes you find out who these people are and and you know they're they're the complete gods of the underwater imaging community and they're busy telling you why why your lens isn't working at f5.6 you know and and it and it it's it's it's phenomenal and and and and again these are these are you know busy people who lead busy lives and and and yet they'll step in to come and help out with what are you know really for them relatively mundane issues. And it's you know it's it's it's a great tribute to their selflessness really. Alex certainly falls into that picture you know Alex he's he's one of those guys he he's one of those guys that he will always share you know he's not one of these people that hoards technique some people you know they discover something new they keep it to themselves Alex is exactly the reverse he'll throw it out there if someone asks him he'll answer them and he's he's really generous with his time and and and and his expertise.

Todd 36:30

So and so now you're putting out on a on your YouTube channel um if you go to WetPixels YouTube channel you'll see this series called WetPixel Live that you started I'm guessing then around March by by any chance probably we were a bit late on the uptake and and I think really what our what our goal was and I have to say I think it was primarily Alex's idea.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Certainly the the conception of it was was Alex's idea. I I I kind of wanted to do something but I wasn't also sure what and and really the goal is to provide a kind of a lot of those queries that occur on the forum recur you know people ask the same questions and the idea is that this answers those queries and as another way of providing getting the information out there. And you know we found increasingly that and I mean I know I do it you know if I need to want to figure out how to do something I'll go on YouTube and find a video on how to do it. And and so that was kind of our our motivation behind doing it. So it sort of is designed to be the sort of hard edged information that people need or have are struggling to find in another format really. Yeah it's it's been really popular you know it's it's doing well and they're also I mean I have to say they're great fun to make because because Alex and I are friends and you know generally we we never have telephone conversations less than three quarters of an hour.

Todd 37:47

You know it's impossible it's right to the laws of physics because once we get on the phone you know we're chatting about this and that and before you know it's three quarters an hour and and and this is kind of the same thing really you know we sit down we stop and and it takes us that you you look at a 15 minute episode what you don't realize is that because we've had to chat a lot along the way it's takes an hour to make that episode you know yeah it's a great series it's it's educational for people of all all levels uh there's there's something to be found there and yeah you cover some everything from basic topics like for people just getting photography you know here are the fresh five things you should know all the way to spending 20 minutes talking about diffusers you know which is awesome I I just watched that video I just I loved it I just I just watched it I mean again what cut being one of the geeks that we we referred to back in the day I'm like this is awesome 20 minutes talking about diffusers and domes and how like you know the these are the types of the fun things that uh us photographers love to geek out about so uh they're awesome really well done and yeah you can tell you guys have a great rapport with each other so it's always fun to watch yeah and they're the kind of subjects I mean I know that the diffuse one's probably a good choice because they're the kind of subject that actually you it's not written down anyway this information you know go and buy a book on it you know you you can't I I don't even know if you Google it what you get which is you know whereas whereas you know there is diffuses are important and they're an important tool that we use absolutely and yet it's almost like folklore to get hold of the information and that that's really the goal.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

That's exactly what it's about.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

So I think the I think one of the reasons I appreciate like the diffuser one so much is is that when people talk photography especially underwater photography they immediately go camera camera camera camera. And I I've always been a big proponent of telling them it doesn't matter what camera you have it matters what lights you have and how you use the light. And and people will ask oh well how do I how do I get rid of of that blue cast you know what filter do I need to I'm like well don't add a filter add lights and that's really what's going to change your your photography your video underwater and so when I see people talk about like you guys with diffusers and and anytime p anyone does any type of lighting educational uh video I think I think that's just to me that I I I'll sit and I'll watch that for hours.

SPEAKER_03 40:17

Yeah but I think that's yeah it's basically photography ultimately is about capturing light. Exactly it is and the tools that we capture with of course they're important and of course you know we're not we're not for a minute saying they're not but ultimately all the tool does is captures the light and if you're providing good light you get good pictures. If you're not providing good light you won't and that's that's the or it's much harder to should I say that's the numb of it so so anything you can do to improve the quality of light that you're trying to photograph will will will will mean that you your images will will be better.

Todd 40:47

Absolutely you mentioned that uh you had been doing trips in with Alex and Lembe and things like that. What's the game plan now that COVID kind of screwed things up are you guys have plans for 2021 yet or 2022?

SPEAKER_03 41:01

Yeah so well I mean I think in common with everybody else we've we've basically postponed everything until until next year. We we have we had workshops planned um now and one at the end of November um in Lembay as it happens um and obviously that you know the the it certainly doesn't look like there's gonna be a chance to travel so so certainly the the what's running now has been postponed till till next year. I'm gonna make a final decision on the other one in fact probably tomorrow the the but but it it looks unlikely that it's going to run at this stage. So so I mean I I think one of the things that the COVID thing is highlighting is you know how dependent the um a lot of the resort areas and the areas that we visit as as photographers and divers are on on our custom really um and I think it's really really important that we try and try and plan things going forward that will once we have a a safe way of traveling that will allow us to then to provide that custom again um I you know I I know we're all we're all suffering to some extent with this outbreak but but I mean the the degree of suffering that we're experiencing compared to you know what's happening in these resort areas is is is is relatively minor really and there there's been a a couple of groups that that I'm involved with that have like all the members got together and donated to uh some of the resorts down or the dive operations down in Cozumel. You know just you give them five bucks now just just to be able to go back later to help keep them afloat you know yeah the diving community is very generous so so people I've supported it's a it's very uncertain times and it's hard to it's hard sometimes but I think I think in general as a community those of us that have I don't know disposable income what do you want to call where we should be looking at investing that in trips in the future um simply because that's what will keep these places alive um now. Right um and and you know it's it's a it's a it's a big ask um but I think it's an important one. So yeah the the the the long answer short question at Todd I'm sorry but it yeah so so we're saying we're basically just finding that's how we get content or we'll we'd love it just to short questions. We have we have a pretty full schedule for next year um given that we had trips planned for next year anyway and of course now we've got these on top.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Oh so so you added these to next year's schedule?

SPEAKER_03 43:23

Yeah yeah yeah in a normal year I'm traveling a lot so so I do quite an assignment work as well so I'm often traveling for 140 days a year.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Wow now normally in a in a normal year how many uh workshops do you guys usually run?

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Conventional dive travel doesn't work wonderfully well for photographers um because we we don't want to go along the reef we want to stay in one place for hours looking at little stuff or or whatever it may be or you know set of short or we want to dive the same reef 10 times because we want to get the sun in the right place or or whatever it may be that that that so so um and Eric started running photograph Productive trips, and that's that's the way they're described. They're designed to be photographically productive. They're not necessarily workshops, and there's a distinct difference. Workshop is a is a formal learning experience where there will be you know sit-down lessons. I mean, no one nothing's mandatory, but but there will be um presentations to do with technique and and ideas, uh, there'll be image reviews, all that kind of stuff. Um and that we run those um and they're they're they are formal kind of learning experiences. But then actually the bulk of trips we run are photographically productive travel. So so for example, we we plan to be in Rajarampat in in April next year, um, and you know, we charted the boat, the boat will go where we want it to go because we charted the whole boat. Um, and you know, we'll go out there and the goal is that that we'll find try and find the the places and the conditions that are most photographically productive and go there and shoot a bunch of images. And that's now of course you've got a bunch of photographers on board. Do you learn stuff from the photographs? Of course, of course. You know, it's there's a great creative kind of feud that generates, and that's that's almost organic, you know. It's not a it's not something that we and and you know we do we do encourage it, but it's not a it's not a it's not a formal learning thing. Right. But um, so so the majority of our trips are kind of photographically productive diving trips as opposed to workshops, and then we run the workshops on top. Um to answer the question again, sorry, long answer. Um typically we run kind of maybe uh two workshops a year-ish and probably three or four um non-workshop photographic trips. And uh that's awesome. And yeah, and you know, and we do some some of them are perennials. We we normally go to Ela for the Walesharks every year, yeah. Um just because it's such an amazing event. Um, I mean I've been seven times or eight times now, um, and and still I I love it. You know, I really miss not being there this year. And some of them, you know, are off the wall kind of you know, one-offs that we do occasionally, um, and everything in between, really.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

So out of all

Favorite Dives - Tiger Beach

SPEAKER_01 45:55

your uh one-offs, what have been your some of your favourites?

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Oh that's a challenge. I really, really like dying with sharks and photographing sharks. I I know we're probably gonna we may look at some images later on, but you know, if I was to have a spiritual home, then it probably would be Tiger Beach. But it is it is a fantastic place to dive and and the experience of being in the water with very large, yeah. They are that's it, yeah, with with with with very large sharks um you know, who are simply not interested in us um beyond the fact that we might have some food for them, which which they quite like the idea of getting hold of, but they're not, you know, they're not is it just such an amazing experience. I mean I I love all marine life, but I particularly am drawn to marine life that has um a level of intelligence, and and you know, certainly these sharks display a great deal of intelligence, and I think that I find that fascinating. Um photographically trying to capture that sort of the fact that they're intelligent, have personalities, that kind of thing, I think I think is is is a fantastic thing to try and do. I'm not sure I manage, but but um but yeah.

Todd 47:04

Every podcast disclaimer will have this. Uh so we are sharing uh going to be sharing a few of Adam's images that we uh asked him to show us to talk about. So if you happen to be listening on the podcast, uh go ahead and either uh check the show notes, we'll have links to all of Adam's images, or if you happen to be using the Overcast Podcast player, it'll be showing up right now as chapter art. But we're currently looking at uh a beautiful large tiger shark that was at Tiger Beach, I'm assuming, Adam, is that right?

SPEAKER_04 47:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Todd 47:34

Yeah, so tell tell us a little bit about this photo. Possibly in the background.

SPEAKER_03 47:38

Tiger Beach is um it is uh uh on the Grand Bahama banks, it's about 25 miles offshore from Grand Bahama. And no one really knows why, but pretty much every year um large female tigers come in. Um the general consensus is that they're probably pregnant, so it may be something to do with the sheltered waters and it's a place where they can hang out um during gestation um before they go and pop in the mangroves. So um various people at Jim Evanethi, Eric Um Chang, and others discovered it. I I'm not sure whether that's contentious, but but certainly they they they um they popularized it for sure. They popularized it, yeah, certainly. Um and you know, it's one of these, it's it's an amazing place. The diving is baited, but the the sharks are you know, they're not behaving in any way, they're not reacting to the food as food, they come in because there's food there, and when the food's gone, they leave. Um, and that's that's the way they react. You know, you get these wonderful experiences seeing very large, you know, frequently you'll have seven or eight large tiger sharks hanging around, cruising around you at any one time. The other thing that happens there, which which which kind of doesn't really get in the limelight, is um you can also have you know 20 or 20 or 30 um lemon sharks and probably the same numbers of Caribbean reef sharks. Um and and and increasingly now hammerheads, bull sharks, you know, pretty much anything can happen there now. So so um it's it's a really really cool place. And and I think that that that it's something that some it's a place that every diver should dive at least once um because it will change your mind about sharks forever, you know. That that we all have preconceptions about sharks, and diving there is one of these, one of these incredible educational experiences where where it's simply you realize that most of what you know about sharks is probably wrong. Yeah. Exactly.

Todd 49:24

Yeah, so there we go. Uh Tiger Beach uh on on the top of Adam, one of the top dives on Adam's list for sure. And he's got a beautiful, beautiful photo. I love the uh all the detail and you remember about how big this uh tiger is.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

She was about she's about five meters, so what's that? Um 15 feet, something like that. 15 feet, yeah. So it's you know, a really big animal. And and you know, that I think I think personally the the reason I like this image is with the diver in the background is you know, it does give it some perspective. There's a little bit of force perspective here because of course the diver is somewhere, somewhat is a distance behind her, but nevertheless, yeah, um you know it makes the diver look very small.

Todd 50:00

It's all art, right? So it doesn't, you know, it's perveying the grandeur and the beauty of the shark.

SPEAKER_03 50:06

So and she's also she's also completely disinterested in either me or the diver. You know, there's no she's just swimming by, she's not, she's not bothered whether we're there or not. Um and I think you know that to me is is um it kind of typifies that you know they're quite aloof, they're not don't really interact, they're not really bothered whether we're there or not.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

And also to to see some of the um work that you know you you mentioned Jim Abernathy, to see some of the work that he's done with these uh amazing sharks have just been you know use the same word twice, it's it's just been amazing. I mean, they they'll come and interact with them and scratch my back, scratch my belly, scratch my nose.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

We use an operation on there called Epic, um, and it's a husband and wife team of Deb and Vincent. And these guys, you know, not only do they they name the sharks, which is fine, you know, the save names, but they actually sharks have they they will identify their sharks in a good mood or a bad mood. Yeah, this is the level of this is the level of how well they know these animals. Now, you know, though if you've ever owned a pet, you know, a dog or a cat, you you can recognize this in in them. So so logically, why should shark be different? You know, it there is no reason. But to actually be at the level where you're actually able to go, well, you know, ladies in a mood today, you know, and you go, why is lady in a mood? Because ladies do this. Okay, well, yeah, she was doing that. You know, that's that's pretty incredible. So the guys that are down there wrangling them full-time, you know, Jim is certainly another good example, you know, that they're just amazing. And and and and you know, they they they have this sort of relationship with the sharks, it's it's pretty amazing, I think.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

And and just to see them not doing not just doing it for uh tourism, but doing it for awareness and and also to to take care of the sharks because once they get that level of comfort with them, I think uh Jim said he's removed like over a hundred hooks from these sharks over the years, you know, and to see them remove where they get um you know plastic caught on them when they were young and they've grown, and the plastic's just grown into their bodies and stuff, and it just you know so the other thing that we probably should give credit to, because obviously the operators like people like Jim and Epic and the other operators do a great job, but actually the Bahamas you know have a really, really forward-looking policy in terms of shark conservation that I think you know we really need to give them credit for.

SPEAKER_03 52:32

There's so many countries in the world that that don't protect sharks. Um and the Bahamas, you know, have been doing it for 20 years. Yeah, and and I mean 20 years ago, who was talking about protecting sharks? Nobody. I so you know it really is, it was very, very forward-looking. And and you know, they police it, they look after it, they recognize them as a resource for tourism, and and you know, and that's really the the earliest place I can think of that that's as forward-looking is Fiji know where it came along recently with with a lot of their uh things.

Todd 53:04

I was trying to think how was it, I think it was the late 90s when they did the shirt. Like, is that 20 years ago? Oh my god, I think 20 years ago, right? But yeah, so feed but no, to your point, Fiji, but they're I mean, we're talking three in the world, right? Three areas in the world that can come to mind. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 53:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and and you know, the the biggest shark fishing fleet in in the world is the Spanish, you know, right? It's it's a European country, you know. It's right, you know, so so you know, we really, you know, that this is this is something that that well it'd be nice to think the other countries, but we really should give the Bahamas, you know, they they definitely they jumped in and run at the beginning and and and I've stuck with it, you know, kind of easy.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

So yeah, yeah, and it's good to see more more countries and more islands are are jumping on board the marine conservation and and making uh marine parks and and marine reserves. Um I heard recently that I don't remember I I want to say uh I I know I'm going to be wrong, but the uh I want to say it's either the United Nations or a couple of countries are getting together to try to make the largest marine reserve like in the center of the Atlantic.

SPEAKER_03 54:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Um saw something about that recently, and and that that'd be awesome to to try to help.

SPEAKER_03 54:24

I think it's was it would you a US initiative actually creating this MPA? Um and and I again I I can't, it's the name of the islands escaped me, but yeah, um, and it it will make the yeah, the marine reserves are a really good idea, they're a really good thing. I I think the other thing that's really important is this idea of ecotourism, and uh yes, I know it's a sort of fashionable tag that we tend to give things now. Um, but but the example, and and I I work well with examples, so so I mentioned going to see the whale sharks at Ilamujas, and uh um so obviously you get this aggregation going on, I it's been going on forever. Yeah, um, you get these huge numbers of whale sharks, you know, 400, 500 whale sharks in a relatively small space um every day. Yeah. Um and um it's it's uh become you know a real uh

Isla Mujures - Whale Shark Photo

SPEAKER_03 55:11

resource for, yeah, thank you. Perfect. Yeah, there we are. That's one I love hanging around under well sharks. There you go. So um so the Mexican authorities are regulating it. There is some regulation which you know um it has come in. Um and and certainly you know that that can be somewhat controversial perhaps, but I was chatting to the operator that we use about it, and he was saying the difference between the well sharks and and the well shark tourism and not is the guys on the island now build their houses out of bricks rather than build them out of wood, which means that when the when the hurricanes hit the the houses survive. Right. And that's kind of you know, that's really a fundamental kind of, you know, your house is gonna, with the well sharks there, you your house will survive a hurricane. Without it, it gets blown away. Right. That right, you know, when you take it down to that level, then that that strikes me as being that's that's really powerful ecotourism. Yeah because they have this huge vested interest in in the in the the well sharks being being there and looking after them and making sure that they still keep coming. Um, you know, yeah and that I I that struck me as being, you know, it there's there people don't particularly talk about the the the Ila well sharks being a successful ecotourism, but when you put it on those terms, I think it is you know massive. For sure.

Todd 56:23

Yeah. I I think it's it's funny, it gets into uh interesting predicament with Islam Muharis, especially because the idea was great and then all of a sudden it became so popular that you have so many boats going out each time that they have to constantly adapt and evolve. Like anything else, you have to constantly adapt and evolve. So the the they realize that well, we can't just have 900 boats out there for two whale sharks each time. So they have to limit the number of people that are in the water first. So they did that, and now they're they're issuing less and less permits, yeah, so letting less and less permits out for each, which is the right thing to do. I mean, it's it's great that people are getting to appreciate it and there's more awareness of the beauty of these creatures, but now that it's so popular, they have to then take the next step of protecting them. So it but it's a it's another problem to have.

SPEAKER_03 57:10

Yeah, it is, yeah. And I and I think, you know, although although you know people tend to like the idea of not having rules, I think we do have to have rules in the world. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

I mean, Todd Todd and I were in East Limahada's um 2018. And we went out and they had, you know, there's only two divers allowed in the water from any boat. And when we first heard that rule, we were like, we had chartered a whole boat and we had a whole group of people with us, and we were kind of like well, you know, okay, that that that's fine. That just means more for less people to have to deal with was our thought process at the time. But then when we got out there and we saw another hundred boats come out, yeah, you know, you're talking, okay, well, two people from each boat, that's gonna be uh a hundred people, you know, a hundred people in the water, two hundred people in the water. Yeah, you know, that's a lot of people. And so for them to start limiting that, I think it's definitely a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 58:10

Yeah, yeah. To the extent of supply and demand as well, in the the price will increase, which actually from an ecotourism point of view is not a bad thing, right? Because you know, if you if you can reduce demand on the resource while still maintaining the same income for those that that are needing that resource, you know, that that's good for the environment too, in lots of different ways, you know, you know, everything from boat fumes all the way down. So I think that to some extent that it's a successful, successful ecotourism. For sure. For sure case study.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

And we're looking at this uh one photo right now of looks like you took a fish eye, and you know, you're underneath the well shark, and it's just you got the sunball right above it, so you get the god rays come down, and it's a gorgeous shot. And about how far below the well shark do you think you were with that?

SPEAKER_03 58:56

For those that don't know, every everything on on ELA is is on a snorkel for yoving, so so so I'm holding my breath at this point. I'm not I'm not on scuba. So the problem, of course, is that you you you've got to line the sunball, the shark, yourself all up in the right place at the right time whilst holding your breath while swimming about to try and get into it, which is which is challenging. Um and they're not slow. No, they're not slow. Um and the advantage you had with this one is this is actually not a very big shark. Okay. So so if it was a fully blown one, I'd have to be a lot deeper to get get it in the position I found it than I actually was. So it's a relatively small shark shark. So I think I'm probably about I'm probably about 15, 20 feet underneath this one. So I'm not a huge depth. Um, and I have to say there was a certain amount of game planning here, and that I I saw it was a smaller shark, and that's what that's what made me decide to go for this shot because because I was able to obviously it's a very recognizable silhouette, so I've got the full silhouette, but between us anyway, um it's uh it's a relatively small shark, which meant I was able to not I didn't have to completely kill my ears getting down there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

That's a it's a fantastic shot. You did a great job on those.

Todd 1:00:03

Yeah, it's beautiful, yeah. And like Dalton says, luck equals uh opportunity meeting preparation, right? So you had the idea of what you wanted to get and you needed to find that small shark so you didn't have to go 50 feet below on one breath and the opportunity happened to be there.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:19

So and I knew I knew what uh at you know my camera, the settings were set, I knew I I'd actually dived down previously and made sure my settings were right, you know. So so everything was set up, then it was just a question of getting down there and getting in the right place for sure.

Todd 1:00:33

And again, since you wanted to capture those sun rays, so you needed it at uh at a high F-stop, right? You needed to be something that makes sure those rays are crisp.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:41

Yeah, I actually really push shutter speed, so bear in mind obviously this is ambient light, so I'm I'm not restricted as my shutter speed. So so I find that shutter speed helps freeze the uh the the sun rays as well. So so um I the aperture for me is not as important because because I'm not worried about depth of feel with this. Um so I actually don't remember what the aperture was, but but it will have been you know a thousandth or plan uh yeah, exactly.

Todd 1:01:06

When you're shooting at a thousandth to freeze the action, you're not gonna you're not gonna be at uh f 2.8 anyways. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's great. A beautiful shot. With a with a with an eight mil for sure, yeah. So yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

So that was an eight mil?

Todd 1:01:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

On a full frame, I would assume.

Todd 1:01:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

Yeah.

Cave Photo

Todd 1:01:25

We haven't really talked much about cave dives on the on prior podcasts. So I was very uh excited when you uh when I asked you to share some of your photos that you sent this one here. Let me pull it up. The Dalton can see too. I love this shot. So tell us uh tell us about where you are in the shot, who you've got in the picture and what we're looking at here.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:43

So this actually is Mexico again, as it happens, um, and this is in the Yucatan. Um it's a cave called Otocha, um, which is on obviously on the Mexican mainland, on the Yucatan mainland. Um, and um in common with a lot of the um the the Mexican caves, obviously very heavily decorated, beautiful flowstone decoration, salamite selectites. Um what's quite unique and possibly is is um uh is something that there's a lot of it is the black patch in the ceiling. So so obviously salomite celectites only ever form when the caves are dry, they can't form when the caves are flooded. So the first point is that the sea level had dropped in a previous ice age and this cave was entirely exposed to air. So that's the first point. So the speliotherms can only can only form in the dry. And obviously, at some point the cave is then refilled, and those black patches actually are tannic layers in the water, so they're actually reflecting soot or tannins that have come at particular stages of its flooding and have been incorporated to speleotherms. So so, from in terms of the cave's evolution, um quite a fascinating story, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

Yeah, you're more more of a man than me, my friend. Uh cave diving, I just never really never uh I'll do a I'll do a uh cenote, but when I have to push my rig in front of me to get through a hell, I'm I'm gonna stop.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:02

So so I I have a background in in in in cave diving and this and and you know cave exploration. Yeah. And and I've done a fair amount of technical diving as well, um, rebreather diving, all that kind of stuff. So so I you know, I I have I have so and I actually really love cave diving. I I particularly like trying to capture pictures of places that people really haven't been, um, or very few people have been. Um and that to me is a is a sort of fascination. So so this is a yeah, this is a picture. This is actually actually lots of people have been where this where this picture was taken, but um, but this is this is uh Vincent Rokka Katala of uh who owns a uh a fantastic cave diving outfit in near uh Toulum called uh Under the Jungle. Great name too. Cool. Um yeah and and him and his and essentially they're uh they're him and his his exploration partner decided that um Natalie Gibb decided that they would needed money to go and explore new caves, so they better better start a cave diving operation to fund their exploration habit. And that's pretty much what they do, you know. They they they basically what money they make they invest in going finding new caves somewhere. So um they're they're amazing and pair of them. Photographically, there's all sorts of interesting stuff that you can do in caves, um, and and and there's some better examples of it to be fair than this particular one, but you know, with remote strobes, remote lighting, um, um, video lighting. Obviously, by definition, you've got a lot of contrast in a cave because it's dark. So, so you know, continuous lights are a really good tool that you can achieve great things with. So it's you know, it's a fascinating place to play with photographic as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

And you're also adding that additional layer of of technical ability because you're you're placing these these secondary lights and you know for backlighting and and stuff like that, but you're also having to do it in a way not to kick up any any silt from the bottom. Yeah, so to keep the water as clear as it is, um, which I I find amazing. Very, very talented to pull that off.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:01

Thank you. Yeah, yeah. No, it's uh it's another passion, so it's certainly something that but I I enjoy doing. And and it's one of the you know, I I'm I'm an old photographer, but I'm also a diver, and and uh you know I love I love challenging diving or diving in challenging conditions and um as well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

Well you would you'll have well we don't live in Florida anymore, but you would uh you'd you'd love Florida. Um I've done I've done Florida, I've done the case, yeah. Yeah, I've done a a few of the springs there, and it's uh it's it's a whole nother uh it's amazing, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's lovely. Totally. Yeah, it's really lovely. Yeah, yeah.

Todd 1:05:37

And there are any other specific memorable

Adam's Favorite Dive Destinations

Todd 1:05:39

dives that you ever had? Any stories that pop up at you right away that you can think of? It's a really, really difficult one.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:46

It's a question that that that I'm sure we all get asked pretty frequently. Where's the best place to dive? You know, where's your favorite dive? And my stock answer is always it's where I'm diving today. Um and that that kind of it's a bit of a cop out, I know, but but But it kind of it it sort of deals with the problem. It's so hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

How about I uh I'll I'll help narrow it down a little bit because what I always tell people is I I can't pick any one spot. So how about you ask me what's my favorite place for sharks? So what's your favorite shark destination? Oh well that's easy. Tiger Pin Tiger, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:23

No, that's so so yeah, okay. So so I can I have two? Yes. Okay, so so definitely Lemba, um, obviously critical graphical world. And and and a close second will be Analao in the Philippines. Um can I have three? Yeah. So so so Dumagetti in the Philippines as well. So so you know, uh I um the the you've got obviously Dumageti and and Lemba, both black sand destinations where you've got you know critters running on black sand, which makes them easier to find. Andalau tends to be there is some black sand, but it tends to be a little more corally, so so you get different types of critters. So, so um so yeah, I mean, and and the you know, the experiences, so again, you talk about you know critters, you know, particularly the experience of things like um like octopus, for example, you know, they're just such charismatic animals. And and and going back to I think you know, I mentioned this idea of intelligence, yeah. Thank you. Um, you know, there's so much intelligence uh that you you you that these guys exhibit.

Todd 1:07:22

Have you watched uh my octopus teacher on Netflix yet, Adam?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:26

Yeah, yeah, I have, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you know, and obviously it's very topical at the moment. Um but but that there's there's a huge kind of there's a lot of research that's been done into how bright these things are, and you know, and you know, octopuses will give most dogs around for their money in terms of intelligence. And and yet they've got what we would call brains a fraction of the size. They they have more than one brain, which helps. But but the the other thing about the octopus, which I think is is quite unique, is there's a very much two-way communication with the octopus, you know, in that they're checking you out and you're checking them out. It's it's not it's not a one-way street, you know, where where you're observing and and they're they're observing you as much as you're observing them. Yeah, they're very inquisitive. They are, yeah. Yeah. And they, you know, they seem to learn, they seem to, they seem to be fascinated by what we're doing. Um, and that that's that's you know, uh, there's there's there's a great deal of interaction with them, and I and I love that kind of interaction. So, so you know, yeah, I guess there we are. Where's where's my favorite macro decision? Anywhere I can find all sorts of how about that?

Todd 1:08:24

Before we knew the world was changing, I was trying to convince Dalton we needed to go to the Philippines, and I had mentioned Anilau. So uh if would you of the places to go in the Philippines, if you had never done gone to either place, would you go to Anilao first with the goal of shooting uh critters?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:42

Let's say if you want black sand, I would go to Dumageti. Um if you want sort of more corally type macro, I'd go to Anilau. And Anilao has a lovely wide angle too, which which Dumageti well no, that's not fair because Dumageti has um has Purley Island, which is really good. What really good wide angle. So that's not fair either. So you know, to be honest, either place is awesome. You know, they're they're all good. You can't go wrong either way. You you can't go wrong. No, I mean, you know, if if you if you enjoy kind of macro shooting, both are both are amazing destinations. Yeah, so um, yeah. For sure.

Todd 1:09:12

I don't know how many times you've you've been, but do you remember who you stayed with at those places?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:17

So so I've stayed at various places. So so Analao, um what's now Solitude Analao, um, which used to be the Solitude Eucassia, sorry. I've stayed there. Um also uh Crystal Blue with Mike Bartik, um good destinations, both both really good resorts. Um in Dumaguetti, I've stayed with uh Atlantis and Salaya. Um again, really excellent. Um no problems at all. Um and Lember Lembe, the majority of the time, or recently certainly has been with Lembe Resort.

Todd 1:09:46

So are you friends with Dimpey then?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:48

I know Dimpy. Yeah, I was you have to ask Dimpy sometime because Dimpy uh we we ran a shootout between um Lembe and Guren Resort in Norway, a live macro shootout between the two resorts. Oh wow, it was an amazing event. In fact, we've done two. That's cool. Um but Dimpy on the first one, Dimpy actually came out and was guiding the guys in Norway, and we had to get her in a dry suit because she'd never done anything like this. So so and the amazing thing was, you know, we got underwater, and I was I was running around taking pictures of the guys taking pictures as I do because I was covering the event, and and and there's Dimpy with her pointers and you know in a tri-suit with dry gloves, and it was hilarious, brilliant

Chartiable Causes

SPEAKER_03 1:10:29

for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:29

Now, Adam, I know we were talking um marine reserves and and marine parks and stuff earlier. Is there uh a group or many organizations that WetPixel partners with or anything?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:47

We we don't partner with anyone specifically, but but I'm on the board of CSAVE, the CSA Foundation. Um and and I think they're strong, powerful, good. If for no other reason than they take the approach that they're very much a lobbying organization, uh and so they work behind the scenes, you know, they go to the CITES meetings and they get stuff done, you know, which uh which is is is pretty cool. Um I I've also I so and it it's kind of uh not uh specifically related, but um, I've just we've just launched a new initiative, or we're just about to launch a new initiative with the citizen science project, the cephalopod citizen science type project. Um and these these are guys basically that um uh are studying cephalopods, octopus squid, cuttlefish, um uh and encouraging citizen science projects. Um and again, I mean currently they're they're primarily uh UK based, but they are they are but we're expanding. So so and we're gonna be kind of looking at running guides to cephalopod behavior globally. And you know, that's a really cool project, I think. Again, just um it's not specifically marine. Well, it's marine science rather than rather than environmental, necessarily, but yeah. And I think I think to some extent, you know, what what running projects like that is almost uh better than partnering partnering with an organization as a sort of you know we we we'll we'll get involved with organizations and run projects and that you know provide our kind of our audience um with with participation as well, which I think is really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, we uh recently we we had Francesca um from Love the Oceans, they're doing a uh what made me think of it was we were talking about environmental tourism. Um so she opened up a a place down in Mozambique, um trying to convert them over to ecotourism from unsustainable fishing habits. And and I just think there's uh so much work in that area to to be done across the world, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:47

Yeah, I think, you know, I absolutely and I think I think dive is underwater photographer, I mean, I mean, I think so kind of going back to the environmental ethic, really, my my goal as an underwater photographer is is to basically to try and bring what fascinates me about the oceans and the beauty of the oceans and the majesty of the ocean and the challenges that the oceans face to an audience that can't otherwise or wouldn't otherwise see it. So, so you know, by you trying to use the the skills that I have um to try and produce images that would captivate people, encourage people to discover more about the world's oceans. And that's that's kind of I think as underwater photographers, that's something we can all do. Um you you don't have to be an organization, you don't have to be, but you know, and and you know, we should take we should take pictures of the bad stuff too, you know. It's not all it's not all happiness and lights out there. For sure. Um we we should capture, and and you know, there's some there's some very, very compelling imagery that people show the challenges um of things like unsustainable fishing practices, for example.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:43

A friend of ours, um uh Stephen Frank, he has a thing for elk horn coral. And he's been showing a lot uh of the you know collapse of a lot of the coral where they're just a lot of dead dead coral, and then he'll find places where it's thriving to show people the difference. Because a lot of people don't understand, you know, they'll you know they'll see white coral and they'll be like, oh, that's really pretty. Yeah, yeah. Well, it it it's a little pretty, but then you realize how tragic it is, is because it's you know, the life has left the the coral, right? Yeah, so uh is there anything I I know that you mentioned your passion for sharks uh and you know the environmental impact there. Um are there any uh types of coral that you like to try to bring attention to?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:41

I think the stag one is the obvious one um you know in Florida because that that's that's one that's really well documented. Um, you know, we we're seeing coral diebacks globally. Um I was in the Barrier Reef in 2018, and I have to say, you know, that was that was after the second bleaching episode. Um there was a lot of dead coral around. But actually the the the good news is there was quite a lot of stuff growing as well. So, you know, there was there was pros and cons to it. But I I don't have a species, but I think one of the again, going back to this idea, what we can do, and what Stephen's done really well, and and is you know, he's got wonderful pictures of of these coral gardens pre their demise, and then he's got pictures, so he's got before and after. And I think that's something that photographers, you know, documenting these types of things. Um Stephen obviously being a Keys resident for um for a long time, and you know, has has it's enabled him to kind of capture that that and I think that's something that as photographers is something we could really and something we should probably should do more. So so even if we you know we should capture those documenting shots, we should capture shots of the reefs as they are now, because in 20 years' time they may not be like that. And that that shows people that there's a need to protect them and present.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

Now, for um uh you know to can continue on with the the conservation talk for a little bit, um, you know, you mentioned the Red Sea uh back in the I think it was in the mid-80s, early nineties.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:02

Low nineties, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:03

Yeah. So have you been back there recently and what kind of difference have you noticed? Because I I I would imagine that the the Red Sea is a good place to to judge because it doesn't, from my understanding, it it doesn't get as much traffic as as say Indonesia and the Caribbean.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:24

Yeah, I don't know. You see, I think I think the Red Sea didn't get very busy because remember, it's basically Egyptian Red Sea is a relatively small area. Yeah. Um so it did actually get really busy. So so it is quite interesting case study because you know, early 90s there wasn't many people going, it was quiet. There was a big boom in tourism there um in the uh uh what would have been sort of late late 90s through into the 2000s and 2010s. Um and and and it was a real it was a very, very steep exponential curve in the number of tourism and the amount of tourism and and it was a problem. Yeah, but the Arab Spring um and the results of the Arab Spring, of course, knocked all that on the head. Um and and so the tourism numbers dropped off again. And and practically what the difference is, you know, when you're diving there, and I mean I I think last time I was there was was 2017, uh 2018, 2018, yeah. Um is previously that when the the critics would stick their heads out of the hole, and a group would come past, they duck back in, and then they start sticking the head out, and then the group would come past, and and they never really got out of the hole. Whereas now they're out because they're not seeing anybody, and that's the difference. Um interestingly, the coral in the Red Sea is in really good condition. I mean, it it's not been such wood, there's been no bleaching. Um you know, it I don't it's not a wonderfully managed sea. Um the resources are pretty scarce in Egypt, and they don't have a whole amount of a whole amount of re of resource. Um but you know, it's relatively it is pretty healthy, I have to say. It's a bit of a success story. You know, and I think I think it's an interesting one to to observe because certainly, for example, you know, if we were to take pictures over 20 years there, I think we'd probably find that things like the corals actually probably not suffered a great deal, which is which would be you know an interesting comparison. Certainly, certainly like Dubalay's early stuff in the late 70s, you know, you compare the pictures that he captured then to now. Yeah, I mean it's actually it's okay, you know, and that's that's good news, I think.

Todd 1:18:21

Yeah, unintended benefit of political unrest.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:24

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's certainly, certainly, I mean, again, but there's a human cost to it, of course, which we shouldn't underestimate. You know, the the right there are people that uh have really are have really suffered and are really suffering, you know, financially, and and that's all sorts of other hardships associated with that. So um, so but yes, it did it has certainly um created a decline in the tourism numbers. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:47

Across the world in general, have you noticed uh big changes?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:53

Um yeah, where where have your biggest you know where have you noticed your biggest changes then so I I think and again obviously it's a hobby horse mindset, so uh but but you know, once upon a time seeing sharks on a reef was normal. You know, most dives you saw sharks on a reef. You know, they were part of the ecosystem. They were, you know, if you were diving on a coral reef, you expected at some point to see a shark, and and that's simply not the case anymore. Um, you know, when we see sharks, we get very happy and very overjoyed about it because we've seen a shark. Um you know, certainly you know, I when I started spear fishing in the uh in the 80s, you know, the sharks used to come and take the sort of catch quite regularly, you know, I didn't used to let them take it, of course. That was that was kind of like you know, and they were always a rat, you know, they were always sharks in the water, and that's simply not the case anymore. And that that to me is a I I've always sort of based that as a kind of the apex predator and then working down, and you know, if the apex predators are reducing in such numbers, that can't be good for the rest of the ecosystem. So um I I I think they're a good barometer possibly of of the sea's health.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:58

Um on Wetpixel, do you guys have uh any type of environmental section, or have you guys thought about adding an environmental section?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:06

There's an environmental, there's an environmental forum for sure. There's discussion on there about the the marine environment and and obviously an opportunity for people to post about projects and and post about issues of concern for sure. That's great. And you know, we we've we've got involved in various campaigns over the years for all sorts of different things, um and and we'll continue to do so for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:27

Yeah. That's awesome.

The Dive Brief

Todd 1:20:28

Shall we do the uh dive brief, Dalton? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:31

Absolutely. So did did Todd tell you about our dive brief? I did not.

Todd 1:20:36

Why don't you tell tell Adam what he's what we got him in for?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:39

Okay, so toward toward the end of all of our interviews, um we have we call it the dive brief. It's five rapid fire questions um that you just give a quick answer. Uh for example, like the first question is what's your favorite dive snack?

Todd 1:20:56

What's my favorite dive snack? Um chocolate. Other than your camera and your housing, what is your favorite piece of dive gear?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:05

My rebreather.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:07

Nice, nice. If you could choose somewhere to dive that you haven't already been, where would that be?

Todd 1:21:15

Galapagos.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:16

Nice.

Todd 1:21:18

What is your favorite post-dive drink?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:23

There are two answers. There are two answers. Okay. Um the first answer would be I'm an addict of I'm a Diet Coke addict, so that would be number one, so it's but more likely. Um, but um, but if I was if I was in an idea world, it would be a cold corona, ice cold with with lime pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:39

Nice, nice. So I think we already know the answer to this, but your favorite sea animal.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:45

Uh well, yeah, you know sharks are yeah, yeah.

Todd 1:21:49

The most frustrating thing about diving is given up.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:54

Nice, nice. So that that uh that wraps up our dive brief for Adam.

Todd 1:22:00

We survived.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:04

Nice. All all good ones. I think I could be down with all of those for sure. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:11

You know, it's it's the if you could miraculously go from land to being in the water with a little gear on camera in your hand, I it would make life so much easier.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:18

Absolutely.

Todd 1:22:19

Take a pill, it would happen in the exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:23

Now, uh just a couple more questions before I uh uh before we you know try to close this out. Um you had mentioned your rebreather. Do you travel with your rebreather or do you just use that locally?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:35

Uh mostly locally, unless there's a specific need for it. I mean, that they're a pain in the arm to travel with. I don't know if I can say that. They're a pain to travel with. Yes, you can. Um so so um and often you know getting hold of the gear that you need, the the soften alignment, the oxygen, all the other bits of this you need often precludes them. So um, so so if there's a need, sure. But probably I travel rarely with it. Yeah. Okay.

Todd 1:22:56

Do you do uh you also mentioned uh you started off doing spear fitching. Do you do much free diving still? Or um so the Mexican stuff is all freediving.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:06

So so you know, um I do free dive. I I I enjoy free diving, I like free diving very much. Um I I think the UK is challenging for you freediving just because it's cold and you know, of course. Yeah, yeah. Um, but but you know, when I get the opportunity to to free dive, I enjoy it very much. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:22

Okay, well, just to go back to the uh spearfishing thing, I I used to spearfish a lot in Florida, and I know there's always been a little controversy between in my opinion, I have to stick with the the traditional, but you're not truly spearfishing unless you're free diving.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:40

Yeah, well that's I I I've only ever spearfished holding my breath. Yeah, I've never so in South Africa you weren't allowed to scuba a spearfish.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:46

So in in Florida, you're allowed to and even here in California, you're allowed to spearfish on on scuba. And and personally, I think that's uh that's cheating. Yeah, I'm sure I'll get some controversy about that, but yeah, yeah, I think you might.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:03

I mean, I I I each to their own, you know, let's let's not let's not let's not tell other people how to do things, but but personally I wouldn't choose to I would never choose to spearfish on scuba. Yeah. I have to say I don't spearfish anymore either. I spear fish with a camera, so nice um you know I and and I I try and I'm not perfect by but I try not to eat fish, so so it was really hard because I really like eating fish, but um I'm I'm more worried about the numbers than not. But again, that's my decision.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:26

It's not your decision. I wish I could get I wish I could get there.

Wrap Up

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

I wish I could get to that.

Todd 1:24:31

Yeah, yeah. I'm telling I'm telling you guys stone crab, it's sustainable. You're just taking the claw, throwing it back, then grow a new one. You can eat stone crab conscience-free, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:40

That's that's Todd's favorite right there.

Todd 1:24:43

That's my favorite thing to eat is stone crab. So I find it. I find I find it, I'm just finding an excuse for it. That's all. Double, double, double bone. Yeah, exactly. Well, thanks so much, Adam, for for your time. You've been an awesome guest. We're we're huge fans of yours and the site. Um, before we go, uh, why don't you tell everyone where they can find uh more about WetPixel and then also your own your own uh site as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:07

So so WetPixel is very straightforward. Um, is wetpix.com. Um I would just stick into Google you find it. But uh my own site, my my imaging site is is HanlamHyphen Photography.com. Um but also please you know gone to YouTube, um WetPixel Live, um really cool resource if you're interested in underwater image making. So yeah, good, good good, hopefully good good places to go and visit.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:30

And also if we get any uh listeners across the pond, you have a dive shop as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:37

Do you want to shop I I I have a dive center um based in a in a in a in a freshwater quarry up in the north of England, um limestone quarry, so it's very clear. Okay, and the the name of uh it's an odd name. It's it's called Cape and Ray, C-A-P-E-R-N-W-R-A-Y. Um and yeah, and it's uh it's uh it's a Norse name, I think. Annoying. Um and and it's um it's one of those weird places in the if you live in the UK and you dive in the UK, you know about it, but the rest of the world hasn't a clue.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:07

So does it have a an associated website.eu or anything like that?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:12

Yeah, it's it's www.dive school.co.uk.

Todd 1:26:18

Awesome. Well, the secret is out. You're trying to keep it a secret all these years. Well, now we're gonna post it everywhere. Perfect. That's great. On that note, tell us about your your biggest fans, which are your dogs.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:29

So what kind of dogs do you got? We we have everything from a chihuahua to uh a Belgian shepherd cross collie. So wow. So we have four of them. So so um nice. So yeah, and and so they're all sizes from they're all sized from tiny to pretty big. So but we live right on the beach, so so so they do they love the water? They love it, yeah. Well varying degrees to be fair. So chihuahua's not sitting on the water, no, but but uh but the others to varying degrees like it. But I mean they love the beach, you know, they get they just hang out on the beach all day, very happy, really.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:00

Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:02

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:02

Well, if we ever make it over to the to the UK, we'll definitely uh trouble you for a dive.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:08

That'll be great. That would really like that. And and conversely, when uh I'm sure at some point I'll be over in the States and uh we'll see if we can get together and go diving.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:17

And we'll definitely uh look at your upcoming trips in in 2021 and you know see see if we can uh join you guys for for a trip. That'd be think that'd be fantastic.

Todd 1:27:30

Let's set a goal to try to meet up in person in less than six years.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:33

Let's see if we can unlike my work is true.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:38

It sounds like a good one. Awesome.

Todd 1:27:41

Thanks, Shinema. Thanks, thank you so much, Enem. Really appreciate your time. It's it was so great to to meet you and thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:47

That'd be fantastic, I really appreciate it.

Todd 1:27:49

And uh and take care, have a have a good day.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:51

You too.

Todd 1:27:51

Yeah, you guys too. Have a good day.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:53

Take care, bud.

Todd 1:27:54

Cheers, bye guys.