In this episode, the group questions how the world expects men and women to be. Questions regarding a good woman vs a real woman and a good man vs a real man are raised.
How do are these lists of a good woman or a real man get generated? How are they passed on?
The women begin to share what is on their lists: what is a good woman.
Music by Lemon Music Studio by Pixabay
www.sacred-truths.com
In this episode, the group questions how the world expects men and women to be. Questions regarding a good woman vs a real woman and a good man vs a real man are raised.
How do are these lists of a good woman or a real man get generated? How are they passed on?
The women begin to share what is on their lists: what is a good woman.
Music by Lemon Music Studio by Pixabay
www.sacred-truths.com
Ask a Dude: Episode 2 Part 2
Welcome to Episode 2, Part 2: Ask A Dude - three women, one guy – where we get real answers on subjects most men aren’t willing to talk about. This is Sacred Truths with Emmy Graham.
Deborah: I think my question has to do with, what you referenced many times, which is that sort of male programming, how men are taught to navigate the world. And my question then gets a little more specific and I have a few examples, so I hoping my question makes sense. I’m interested in men’s expectations of women and how men communicate those expectations.
And I’m thinking of one example, when I was young; we lived in New Jersey at the time; it’s humid in New Jersey. I went out for a run in the summertime. I came back and I flopped down next to my dad’s chair and my dad was drinking a cool beverage and he didn’t really notice me for a minute he was reading and suddenly he looked down, and with one tentative finger he touched my forehead and said, “You’re sweating!”
I said, “Dad, I just ran 2 and a half miles in New Jersey in the summer, of course I’m sweating.” And he shook his head like with sort of disbelief, and he said, “I didn’t know you sweat.” And I thought that was pretty interesting.
Another example, my dad would get very upset, and sad if I used a curse word. And I said, “What’s the problem there?” and he said, “Ladies shouldn’t curse, and there are so many other words you could use.” So I’m listening to all of those things.
And then years later, I had a very bad boyfriend, who said, “Women should wear dresses and jewelry and smell like flowers.” And he was dismayed that I didn’t look in the mirror, ever, during the day. So he felt I was not being a proper woman, I wasn’t following the rules. So I’m interested-
That’s the first half of the question which is men’s expectations of women’s behavior, how that’s communicated, where it comes from, how it’s enforced by a man to a woman, a daughter, a wife, even a mother. So, can you comment on any part of that that makes sense?
Nick: Yeah, that’s really rich territory for exploring, and I think I mentioned it in one of the previous times we were talking that I’ve thought about ‘what makes a man’ question and I thought about that and generated lists of all the things of “what should a man be?” and listen to the shadow masculine radio station and just listened to the list and written it down and been quite started by how extensive it was and how detailed it was.
And just how, I don’t know the word for it, just kind of shocking it was to just see it written out because this is part of this thing aside from comments like that, there isn’t a book, it’s passed down from, through some other channel.
So I would be really interested in, and we don’t have to do it now, but I would be interested in what that list would be like for you, for your experience, for women.
If you asked the question, “what is expected of me as who I am?” what that would be on the list!
That’s a side note, not really an answer to your question, that’s an interest of mine. I’d be really curious on what that list looks like and I’d be willing to explore that with y’all anytime.
My experience what you’re describing, when I’ve seen that, it’s been, and I wasn’t there and I don’t know, but when I’ve seen that in other situations when I’ve witnessed that? It’s almost like the person gets momentarily possessed. They’re speaking through…something is coming through them from some other source that doesn’t feel like….can be really out of sync with who they are and their personality. When I’ve seen that happen, either coming through from the masculine line, some mandate what boys are or aren’t, what men are or aren’t. What was that?! Some commandment, of absolute, this is how it is, this is how men are.
And if a man enforcing that or referencing that list of things to a woman, when I’ve seen that happen, it’s very unconscious. It seems like it’s… I have this…I can access this shadow masculine program, I’m kind of aware of it, in the questions we’ve been addressing, but we haven’t talked about the list of things that women are supposed to do, other than be subservient (scoffs) and the variations of that. So that’s what I’ve seen, is that’s feel really shadowy and really unconscious to me, when I’ve seen that happen.
When I’ve seen those standards enforced by a man to a woman, it felt really unconscious.
Deborah: Thank you. The second part of my question. Again, I have to describe a scenario. I was taking a walk with my sweetie and we ran into two of his friends and conversation ensued. At first, I exchanged pleasantries with one of the friends because I slightly know him but I didn’t know the other friend very well, and after I goofed with the one man, I realized I felt embarrassed, I think it was embarrassment.
I felt that I had done something wrong because I wasn’t supposed to talk, because these were his friends. So later we continued the walk and we came upon these two people again, and this time I was even more conscious. When the one person I slightly knew drove away and I was with the person I didn’t know, I knew with a certainty that my job was to stand there and look attentive but I was not supposed to speak. I only realized that later and I was shocked to my bones.
I think of myself as a modern woman living in the world; I have a clear sense, I like to think, of my identity, but in that context, with a man, some ancient, I guess conditioning, kicked in? and I’m interested in: Where did I learn that? And if you, as a male person have ever been in an experience where your female companion, of whomever she was, you thought, ‘no talking, missy, I’ve got this.’ Or some version of that.
Nick: That’s great. That’s a great question. Just off the top of my head, I feel like, if I’m listening to my shadow masculine radio station, programming channel, a lot of it, a lot of that channel is about how I’m supposed to behave as a guy, and these mandates about what I’m supposed to be, how I’m supposed to act, what I’m supposed to know. But I don’t…I don’t have that strong a channel even in theory even to tune into that’s talking about what women should or shouldn’t be.
That’s a pretty faint channel, just right now even thinking of it., it’s pretty faint and I’m trying to think of a time when that might have come through.
Deborah: I’m wondering, you may be… well, I believe that, our dude is amongst the most enlightened dudes we know, possibly the most I know. I’m thinking there are many, many, many, many, many men, for whom that channel, if we want to use that analogy is constant because it’s a judgmental situation saying: that’s not feminine, that’s not how a wife should behave, ‘where’s my supper, woman!?’ whatever that version of the narrative is, because I’ve heard it so many times in my life from men, that I failed those expectations, or I did it wrong, and the way I did it wrong was,… not being woman enough, that’s a different thing, but not being feminine enough, and not staying in my box.
Emmy: I’m just going to add, not servicing enough somehow. I agree with you Deborah, I have felt that too. And first of all, I wanted to just say I have thought about what is a woman and I have made a list and I’d be happy to talk about that sometime. And so much of it revolved around serving the man in many ways.
So, I’d be curious if men have a list of what women are supposed to be. Is it different from my list? And for me, one of them was to be thin and attractive. Well, there’s…. think I have 50 items on that list. but the example you gave of being quiet when the men are talking, I call that the ‘invisible girlfriend syndrome’ and I have experienced that as a young woman when I standing there with my boyfriend and he runs into his friend. I become invisible. I don’t know how it exactly happens; I’ve felt like I’m invisible to both of them. They don’t see me. And they don’t want to see me or (slightly laughs) hear what they have to say.
But the difference is when I run into one of my friends, I’m very aware of the man I’m standing next to, and I want to try to include him, and if I can’t include him, I try to keep the conversation short so that we can move on because I’m having this experience with my male friend. And I notice that every time, I even notice it today, I’m almost 60 and I notice it in my current age group anyway, just thought I’d add that bit.
Nick: So, this is really important material understanding how these lists get generated because I’m very aware of mine, as a guy. I think it’s very interesting how these lists get generated, what’s on them, and how they get communicated, how they get passed on.
Because, for me, this was never consciously done, and like I said, my list of what women are supposed to do and not do, is pretty faint at least right now.
But I’m well aware of my list of what a dude is supposed to be and not be. No one ever sat me down, there wasn’t a textbook, it never got consciously, maybe a few moments got consciously transmitted.
So, for guys, when we work with this, we say, “Okay, well, make a list of what a good man is and make a list of what a real man is.” And we’ll do it in a group or as a single person, whatever. And those lists are usually different. There are different things on that list. That’s interesting just in it of itself.
Why would those lists be different?
But usually what a real man is starts to take the shape of what we’re expected to be: this programmed routine of what is expected of us and what we should be.
Usually, but not always.
The ‘good man’ list tends to be more authentic and more heart-centered, and little less shadowy and then that makes an interesting conversation, to make those two lists and then talk about it. “Oh, there’s a difference, and why and what?”
So, that ends up being good.
So, I’m really interested in how that would look like for you three for you to do that.
Deborah: Well, we had just a brief conversation a few moments ago, and amongst the things that it seems we’ve discovered is for the three of us:
A good woman is the person we’re expected to be. And what a real woman is who we are authentically. And so, would you concur?
Heather: Yeah. As I’ve been sitting with it, there’s one additional thing I’ve noticed: which is if I envisioned a man using that language about a woman, it’s less clear.
Like, I can imagine a man say, I can feel a man saying,“Oooh, that’s a real woman.” You know, one that is conformed to the misogynic expectations that we three agreed would be on the ‘good woman’ side.
But when I’m clearly in my own ‘I am a woman’ brain, yes, real is what is actual in my experience about being a woman.
Deborah: I’m realizing as you’re speaking, Heather, that…. So, I grew up in a household where my mother prefers boys. It’s obvious, she’s admitted it. It’s just a fact. She had trouble with her mother; she wasn’t sure what to do with me. So that, I was raised with a sense that men have a harder time in this world because the expectations of how to be a man are so narrow. I’ve always believed this. And then I realized, it’s my mother’s training and I wondered if I did believe it. But I’ve always thought that being a woman is easier, if you will, because there’s so much more leeway in how to be a woman.
And I think about the women I know. I know women who wear jewelry and makeup and smell like flowers and dresses, um, and don’t leave the house without her hair done. And I have a female friend who is the single most competent human I know, and she can build anything: power tools, thinking things through. They both qualify, if you will, as being women. But I’m also conscious that there’s lists! There are ways that I know that I’ve veered from the path.
Emmy: On my list, if we’re calling it ‘good women’, meaning a woman who gets approval, there’s a lot of things on my list that I don’t subscribe to and I never did, but I was always aware of that voice telling me. So I just want to make that distinction, too.
It’s not like I thought, “I should be that,” necessarily, but there was always that voice telling me that’s what the world expects you to be.
Deborah: And I think that’s the difference. There’s sort of what my parents expected me to be. And there’s a fair bit of flexibility more or less.
My mother once did say, “It’s a good thing I wasn’t pretty enough to be a beauty queen.” She thought that would help me out later in life. What I heard, you know, at 9, was not a positive message. But I think, you know, there’s that, in general, kind of in the air feeling of what men are supposed to be, in say, American culture in 2023, and what women are supposed to be. Certainly, the role of women has changed, or the expectations of women have changed quite a bit in my lifetime.
When I was 11, my friend and I happened to be in Boston, and we helped storm the Playboy Club, because there was a women’s march that swept us up. Pretty exciting day. So I witnessed those women, Gloria Steinem, the women, the vanguard of the women’s movement. They seemed to change the world.
And now, I have 20-year-old students who say with horror, “Oh, no, I’m not a feminist; I like men.” And they’ve missed the point completely.
Emmy: Yes, I’m a feminist and I yearn for a healthy man. I just wanted to say, MY list originates in the 1960’s when I was a young child, so it’s based on that and a teenager into the early 70’s so that might be worth pointing out. That is where this list came from, that time period in my development as a child and a teenager.
Deborah: I think you’re right, and we spoke of this earlier, we each speak from our own context, and I’m a little older than you, so the changes in the world that I saw,
first rapid, and then slow, and then they stopped, and then they sort of got resuscitated. I think these lists, in general, are generated from our childhood when all that indoctrination programming goes in, and we have no filter and we say, “Of course, that’s the world.” We don’t know any other. We know our family, maybe our community, maybe our extended family. So, mine too, comes from early programming but it’s… much of it seems unbreakable or unshakable to this day, and I’m 65.
If I curse in front of a man, I’m a little embarrassed, that was…that was.. “I shouldn’t do that! That’s not lady-like!” I don’t think in terms of ‘lady-like’, I don’t call myself a lady, I call myself as a woman.
But to this day, I shock myself if I curse in front of a man.
Emmy: Yeah, there are a lot of things like that. I was going to say, television has definitely influenced me, probably movies. Things like my underwear should never be seen. If I’m bringing in my laundry and I drop my bra, (LAUGHS) it’s just horrific! (laughs) Where does this come from?! (Laughs)
Deborah: Moreover, (sarcastically) you’re not supposed to say, ‘bra’ in front of a man. You shouldn’t be talking about underwear with men in the room. Shocking! There’s a whole list of things we’re not to talk…even mention to men.
I think it’s permission-able to say, “I’ve got cramps! That’s even more detail than you want to even explore.
So there’s some horror in the room right now. Just the subjects that are taboo, and… are legion!
I’m realizing, my father had no sisters, this was not stuff we talked about at the dinner table, so my brothers might have gone on with life really having no clue of what it’s like to be a woman even though they had a sister and a mother.
Emmy: Who would like to start with something on a what is….
I said, “What is Feminine? Girls and Women have to be...”
That’s what I’m calling it.
Does anyone want to venture forth? Me? Okay. I’ll just say a few things, I’ll say the first 5.
1. Thin, never ever be fat.
2. Sexually attractive without being sexual.
3. Pretty and beautiful.
4. Accommodating.
5. Agreeable.
Deborah: I haven’t started my list but every single thing you just said would be on it.
Heather: Could you say that again?
Emmy: My list?
Heather: Yeah.
Emmy:
1. Thin, never ever be fat.
2. Sexually attractive without being sexual.
3. Pretty, beautiful
4. Accommodating
5. Agreeable.
Deborah: I would add the domestic duties to that list. I believe, I’m not sure why, that I should be a good cook, I should keep a tidy home, I should be reasonably frugal with money. I should be able to do laundry, mend clothes, iron shirts, I’m a good shirt ironer.
And I should cheerfully perform these domestic tasks because they need to be done and I as a woman should be able to excel in them.
Emmy: I’ve got that on my list, too! Funny! (smirks; laughter heard in background) I like the cheerful, cheerfully cleaning and cooking and picking up. Yep.
I have:
Not to be opinioned.
Smart, but never smarter than the boys.
Quiet, never contrarian.
Put the boys’ or the men’s interest first.
I can have interests as long as they don’t interfere with the boys’ interests.
Deborah: Oh, yes. (laughs) I remember reading an article, in American Girl Magazine when I was about nine that said, it’s scary to talk to boys, but here’s a tip. If you find out what interests them, read up on it, baseball, cars, football, whatever it happens to be, and then you’ll be able to talk to a boy about the important things.
Yes, so I would add to your list, Emmy, complaining is not considered an appropriate quality in women.
Heather: This is so fascinating to me, I think there might be a generational thing here, I was born in 1979 so I’m going to turn 44 in a week or so. I listen to your lists and
I could be any of those things, I could be disagreeable, I could be terrible at cooking, I could be loud, I could be opinionated so long as I am just so HOT while I’m doing it.
I just have to be HOT. That’s what it feels like.
I don’t have a list right now; I’m just thinking of mine as I listen to you guys. And just flawlessly hot. It could be big, it could be little, you know, body size doesn’t even matter to a huge extent?
And I think, for me, it’s even like, not having enough, being too thin, not being like kind of luscious enough is more dangerous than being kind of, too luscious in terms of flesh. But that’s okay too, like, to a point.
There’s a wide range of what my body could be like but it needs to be hot when it is that way.
As long as I’m hot, I’m basically fine, and if I’m not, I don’t exist, or worse.
Silent Pause
Deborah: I’m, I’m both sort of struck by the ease of that and the narrowness of that because, I don’t know if Emmy agrees with me, but certainly, from my generation, there was only one way to look hot and it didn’t allow for any variation of body type or being.
It was a certain size, and a certain shape and a certain proportion. Anything beyond that was wrong.
Heather: I should say, there is kind of an inflexible bit which is age. So, it’s does feel like, it’s interesting to be 44, you know, because I think I’m in this transition. Where if you’re not young enough you can’t really be hot, not matter what else is true.
I don’t think there’s a number, but, you know, at some point, it’s like, no matter what, you can’t really be hot because you’re too old.
And the same with weight: you could be way too skinny or way too heavy. You know there’s limits, but yes, it does feel like there is a range.
Emmy: I was just reminded of how my mother was quite thin and she often stated she was a size 8 and she’s always been a size 8 and she was very proud of that: size 8.
And I had it in ingrained in my head that that’s the ideal size. I had no idea that it really depended on your body shape. It wasn’t just about being overweight or not.
Some women are size 10’s and they’re perfectly healthy and some are a size 12 and they’re perfectly healthy, like I had no idea that body size varied.
And so after 8th grade, I was no longer a size 8, because my body kept growing and it was just horrendous for me, it was awful because I was not a size 8 and I knew that I had failed! I had failed at being a good woman.
Deborah: You’re right. It was 8-10 is optimal. 6 gets a little skinny back in the day.
And 12 you’re starting to edge up, and you’re in trouble.
When I was in my last year of high school because of medication I was taking, I started to gain weight. And my grandmother who was probably a perfect size 8 all of her life, she wore skirts every day, she wore pantyhose every day, she always looked absolutely perfectly turned out, she essentially stopped speaking to me over a matter of you know, 10-15 pounds. And I was puzzled then and hurt, and I’ve only gotten angry recently.
Emmy: And it’s funny, item #21: Do not show an interest in food, eat small amounts. It took me a long time to feel comfortable eating.
Eating in front of men, to be sure, but just eating in front of people.
Emmy: This is Sacred Truths with Emmy Graham with music by Lemon Music Studio from Pixabay, and with special thanks to our ‘dude’, Nick Oredson.
This concludes Part 2 of Episode 2 of “Ask a Dude”.
Please join us for Part 3.
Please visit our website at www.sacred-truths.com.
Thank you for listening.