After a period of extended personal crisis nearly a decade ago, Nick Oredson embarked on a healing and growth journey to try and understand and recover from the childhood trauma and abuse he experienced. In 2015 he was introduced to the Mankind Project, a national organization that utilizes circle work and retreats to help men heal from emotional wounds and live more authentic lives. Nick found the circle work he encountered there to be so effective for personal healing that he now co-leads a weekly open men’s circle in Ashland, Oregon.
He is also the founder and facilitator of the Campus Connection Circle at Southern Oregon University, a weekly, mixed gender group that utilizes circle work as a mental health resource for faculty, staff and students.
In addition, Nick is the author of an upcoming book entitled Fear. Shadow. Joy – A Handbook for Working with Shadow which will be available in April 2021. I spoke to him in Ashland, Oregon in 2021.
For more information, or to find out how to purchase Nick’s book, please visit his website: www.nickoredson.com.
email: nickoredson2@gmail.com
Music by: Manpreet Kaur @manpreetkaurmusic
www.sacred-truths.com
After a period of extended personal crisis nearly a decade ago, Nick Oredson embarked on a healing and growth journey to try and understand and recover from the childhood trauma and abuse he experienced. In 2015 he was introduced to the Mankind Project, a national organization that utilizes circle work and retreats to help men heal from emotional wounds and live more authentic lives. Nick found the circle work he encountered there to be so effective for personal healing that he now co-leads a weekly open men’s circle in Ashland, Oregon.
He is also the founder and facilitator of the Campus Connection Circle at Southern Oregon University, a weekly, mixed gender group that utilizes circle work as a mental health resource for faculty, staff and students.
In addition, Nick is the author of an upcoming book entitled Fear. Shadow. Joy – A Handbook for Working with Shadow which will be available in April 2021. I spoke to him in Ashland, Oregon in 2021.
For more information, or to find out how to purchase Nick’s book, please visit his website: www.nickoredson.com.
email: nickoredson2@gmail.com
Music by: Manpreet Kaur @manpreetkaurmusic
www.sacred-truths.com
Nick Oredson: I spent so much of my life intuitively feeling the disconnect between what I was being told about what a man, was and what my experience of it was and what I believed it to be and knew it to be. A lot of wounding there, a lot of pain around how big that disconnect has been for me.
And not having any other source of information, just my own sense of things against everybody saying, “This is how it is.”
We get socialized to be competitive, we get socialized to be independent, we get socialized to not show our emotions and we get socialized to handle everything internally and to kind of just take this continuing attitude of “I got this!” And that is just completely unreasonable!
Emmy Graham: After a period of extended personal crisis nearly a decade ago, Nick Oredson embarked on a healing and growth journey to try and understand and recover from the childhood trauma and abuse he experienced. In 2015 he was introduced to the Mankind Project, a national organization that utilizes circle work and retreats to help men heal from emotional wounds and live more authentic lives. Nick found the circle work he encountered there to be so effective for personal healing that he now co-leads a weekly open men’s circle in Ashland, Oregon.
He is also the founder and facilitator of the Campus Connection Circle at Southern Oregon University, a weekly, mixed gender group that utilizes circle work as a mental health resource for faculty, staff and students.
In addition, Nick is the author of an upcoming book entitled Fear. Shadow. Joy – A Handbook for Working with Shadow which will be available in April 2021. I spoke to him in Ashland, Oregon in 2021.
For more information, or to find out how to purchase Nick’s book, please visit his website: www.nickoredson.com.
Emmy: Well, hello and welcome, Nick!
NO: Hi Emmy, thank you so much for having me on the podcast.
Emmy: It’s so nice to have you’re here. And today we’re on a journey of healing and growth, a very, very intriguing topic And you’ve been on a journey taking an honest assessment of yourself, and you’ve been asking the tough questions including working through your own healing of pains, traumas, of abuse. Tell me, how did this start for you?
NO: Wow. Well, if I had to pick a date, it would be 2012. I was at Burning Man with a group of friends and we were out by the Temple, which is kind of the one quiet place at Burning Man. And we were just having a conversation, kind of with a group of people just talking, and someone said, it’s an innocent question, “What’s your least favorite thing about Earth?” And I thought for a second and I thought, “Well, child abuse! Of course!”
And they just looked at me like, “Oh, why?” And it had never occurred to me, why? I just thought that was obviously, the worst thing about Planet Earth. And that everyone, ten out of ten people when asked would say, “Yeah, of course, child abuse is the worst thing going on. “It never occurred to me, “Why?” I just thought it was obvious. They weren’t challenging me. It was an innocent question: “Why, why is that?”
And my brain kind of went, and the answer that came back was, “Well, that’s what happened to me.” I was stunned, I didn’t …I couldn’t believe, I heard myself say that, I didn’t know what was going on.
Emmy: You didn’t know until then that you had been abused as a child?
NO: I didn’t know. I wasn’t self identified at all as having had anything like that happen tome, at all, it never once crossed my mind and suddenly that came back and then a flood of memories came back. Like a movie, this low light film of bad, not okay stuff that had happened.. It was really, really incredibly unpleasant and disorienting experience to have that happen. I didn’t know what to make of it.
Emmy: So what did you do?
NO: Well, at first, it really induced a crisis. Now in hindsight, I have an understanding of how know my self-mage was working. I have a self-image that I curate, and I then I actually have self-knowledge which those two things don’t always line up! I so had a mismatch between my self-image and my self-knowledge in reality.
And when you get confronted with a mismatch like that, that causes a lot of trouble. It can. Especially if you’re not used to it, and I was not used to it. I went through an extended crisis that fall. My partner at the time, was not interested in, and didn’t know what was going on, couldn’t support me. That marriage started to disintegrate, and I had a bunch of financial problems and just things really rapidly went downhill.
Emmy: In many areas of your life.
NO: Yeah. And so, I was in a serious crisis. I was feeling these feelings, and in hindsight I can understand what was going on, but at the time I didn’t know what was happening. I felt like my whole life was disintegrating completely.
Emmy: Were you able to get help through a therapist or some other means?
NO: Well, I had access to therapy. And that was really, it saved my life at the time, without that I don’t know what I would have done. It’s still basically, it just kind of kept me from just completely going off the edge.
I had no idea that I would ever feel better. I didn’t understand what healing was. I didn’t understand that childhood trauma is something you can work with and heal and resolve and reconcile and I didn’t know that any of this was workable. It was just a condition.
Emmy: You didn’t know anyone else who had gone through it.
NO: Right. And the culture of people I was around at that time, the group of friends, the kind of community of people I was with, we extra not in anything like that, any conversations, any kind: no way! There was no sense of cultural support in the culture I was in, meaning the small community of people I knew, it was a complete non- topic.
Emmy: Is this when you encountered THE MANKIND PROJECT?
NO: That’s what ended that chapter of crisis. That happened in April of 2015 when I went to my first men’s group here in Ashland at the library.
Emmy: Associated with the Mankind Project. What is the Mankind Project; can you fill us in briefly?
NO: It’s an international organization that’s dedicated to supporting men, helping men heal, helping men deal with their trauma, helping men become less isolated become more healthy…trying to
Help men deal with whatever their pain is and become better men. That’s what it’s all about.
Trying to reconnect with the sacred masculine quality which is beautiful, in my opinion, and try to identify the way that masculinity has turned into a toxic mess, I guess. The way that masculine energy has reached an imbalance in this world and causing so much trouble, try to deal with that directly and reconnect with the Sacred Masculine which is beautiful thing, not a destructive thing at all.
Emmy: What are some qualities in your words, of the sacred Masculine?
NO: Well, (voice breaks)
Emmy: Hard to describe.
NO: No, I get emotional when I try to describe…. (laughs/cries) I spent so much of my life intuitively feeling the disconnect between what I was being told about what a man was and what my experience of what it was and what I believed it to be and knew it to be. A lot of wounding there, a lot of pain around how big that disconnect has been. And not having any other source of information just my own sense of things against everybody saying, “This is how it is.”
Protectiveness. For some reason, that is one of the most powerful ones for me. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because I felt so threatened by my dad. He was such a threat in the household. I knew that wasn’t right. As an adult, being protective, feels so good. When I’m in that mode, protecting, whatever: my friends, or my tribe, or whatever it is, my kids, that’s just an amazinglt good feeling, to be so clear.
Not in a violent way, not in an inappropriate way. Hey, I’m here to protect you. And that’s a big part of the Mankind Project is connecting with that notion of being protective and acting in service to your family and your community. That’s one of your most important jobs as a man is being of service to the people who depend on you or your community or to anybody.
Emmy: Whether you are a father or not.
NO: Yeah, yeah. That’s just incredibly important, and it feels amazing, to be acting in that way it’s just so powerful and that’s one of the things in men’s group for people who are in crisis or who are new to the work, just coming in off the street and having some major problem and they’re really struggling; we really encourage them to do an act of service. Find a way to volunteer, find a way to plug in, we have all kinds of ways we help men get plugged in so they can start to be of service even if they’re in crisis or homeless or whatever. They can start feeling that feeling: how good that feels to be of service.
Emmy: Now you co-lead the Ashland’s group. Can you tell us about what happens in these meetings or what the impact was the first time you went?
NO: Oh, sure. I had been pretty skeptical about men’s work, I don’t know maybe from defensive reaction, something, I don’t know. There was that one “Portlandia” where they kind of do a send up of it. I don’t know where that comes from, but I had been pretty skeptical.
One day I was talking to someone at Noble Coffee here in Ashland and they said, “Oh yeah, there’s a Thursday group that’s open to anybody every week. Men’s group, 7:00, every Thursday.”
Okay, I’m ready for anything. So I think, in hindsight ere every week, it took that level of crisis for me to be able to open up to the possibility of something like that.
I had, for all the reasons, I had been socialized to be really resistant to that kind of thing. But I was at that point in my life where, I had to try something different, I ready for anything. So I thought, “Heck, I’m going in, let’s try it.”
I went there. And within 5 minutes, I knew it was going to help. I knew it. And I can’t explain that feeling. I was crying, I got really emotional, but there was this relief. That there actually was something that could help me on this planet with I was dealing with. I can’t imagine something like that could exist.
Emmy: What was that something? Was it you were in a circle with other men, was it the men who were facilitating, or was it was because you broke down in front of a bunch of men?
NO: Since I’ve been participating, since then, since I’ve been leading, and facilitating, since then, I’ve seen this happen to other men, regular occurance for people who walk in off the street, they have the same experience I did.
The Number one feeling is that it’s the first time that they’ve felt safe around other men in their life. Sometimes. That was my experience. It wasn’t very complicated, it’s not fancy. There’s not a lot of complicated theory behind it.
We’re here to support each other. We’re not here to fix each other. No fixing. No saving. No advice unless you ask for it. No judging. That’s such a simple set of rules, it’s not that complicated, it’s one sentence really.
But if you subtract that, I don’t even know how to explain it, but it’s like it changes the chemical reaction in everyone’s brains. It’s incredible.
Suddenly you feel safe in this way that’s like unequivocable.
And I’ve seen it. Other men come in and they’ll share a little something, and then they’ll kind of sit there flinching waiting for the barrage of advice. “Oh, you should just do this, or that..”
“Oh, don’t worry about it.” Some negation.
And it doesn’t happen.
Emmy: Powerful.
NO: And someone says, “So what can we do for you? What do you need? What can we do for you here? What can of support do you need for what you’re facing?” Many, many men including me, say, “I’ve never had that happen in my life!”
Emmy: And also to have someone to just bear witness!
NO: Yes!
Emmy: So, it seems like you’re describing circle work!
NO: Yes!
Emmy: It’s very powerful; why is circle work so important for men in particular?
NO: If I had to pick one thing it’s the way circle functions. It’s really is just this simple set of rules. There’s complicated processes, there’s other things that happens, there’s a retreat weekend, there’s all kind of trainings, but…
Emmy: In the Mankind Project.
NO: In the Mankind Project. There’s all kind of stuff, you can go along way with it. But the basic way that it functions, it’s just this open circle which is what most men experience, it works against isolation.
That’s probably, what I understand in my experience, it’s the most acute affliction of men in this world, in the world that I inhabit.
Isolation is the most terrible thing going on for men.
Emmy: When you say, ‘isolation’ you mean even for men who are in relationship, have families, have a community, they’re still feeling isolated within that.
No: Yeah. Really, acutely. Well, my experience, what I hear is: we get socialized to be competitive, we get socialized to be independent, we get socialized to not show our emotions, and we get socialized to handle everything internally and to kind of take this continuing attitude of “I got this! I’ve got this.”
Emmy: And keep it private.
NO: Yep. And that is just completely unreasonable! It is an unlivable standard. Many, many men, they look at this situation, the lay of the land, and they just say, “Well, I’m on my own, I’m stuck with how I’m wounded. I’m stuck with my anger, I’m stuck with my pain, and I’m just going to grind it out, on my own. Because there is just no avenue for anything else, that’s presented, that’s obvious.”
There’s just culturally, it’s incredible, I think of it like this emotional austerity environment where it’s just, “I got it.”
And that is really hard on people. Once they start talking about it, once we get into this environment where it’s safe to talk about your problems, safe to talk about your pain, safe to talk about your relationship with your dad, safe to talk about how you were abused. People just gush with anguish about their experience growing up, you know, as a guy, like what’s that really like.
Emmy: In this culture.
NO: It’s just heartbreaking. One of the top emotions that men, you know, once they get past the anger, is grief about just how things are. And how imbalanced it is in their relationships with women, and how they treat their children. On a certain level they understand how ‘out of whack’ things are and how wrong it all is. They just don’t see any way out.
I don’t want to get anyway near excusing any bad behavior. Bad behavior is bad behavior. Anything about explaining anything to do with why men do the things they do, I don’t want to get into any excusing. Perpetrators need to be stopped. That’s that.
I think it is important to understand, if we’re going to go to the next level and try to understand what is going on and try to understand how we’re going to…what we’re going to do about this situation is understanding just what men go through as a default, in a default upbring in this culture is rough. At least from what I’ve seen. What I’ve experienced.
I’ve heard of people who had nice dads.
I met a guy who met a guy (laughs) who had a good experience with his dad. (laughs)
Emmy: (laughs) They do exist.
NO: I heard about one, once.
Emmy: (laughs) Right.
NO: Who knows? I’m dealing, I’m interacting with people who are interested in the healing and growth path. It’s not just a cross section of the population.
Emmy: Do you feel like a better father now?
NO: Yes, for sure. That’s one interesting thing about this, what happened. I chose 2012 as my date. It’s really when mt crisis began. If had a mid-life crisis, that was when I had my mid-life crisis. But there were other things that happened before that. And one of them was parenting.
I was wildly disconnected with my own trauma background, my own history, my wounding, wasn’t on a healing path, still had no clue what was going on with me.
But when my son was born and then when he was young, I had vowed when I was young, to not pass on any, any of it.
Emmy: You had an awareness even if it was unconscious.
NO: Yes, I was going to be a last stop for this nonsense. It was such a different context. I was a different person than I am now in terms of my understanding of any of this. But I did know that!
I was out of touch with a lot of things about me and my trauma experience, but
I did know that, and I was stunned what was coming to me as directives for how to treat my son.
Emmy: From the outside world.
NO: From somewhere. Just some collective sense of how to parent a boy. And it was just horrible. It was the worst imaginable advice. It was just atrocious.
Emmy: And did you listen to the advice?
NO: NO! I was just revolted by that. Wherever that was coming from, That? NO, No way that was going to happen. I was just nice to him.
Emmy: Amazing…(smiles) imagine that.
NO: That was it! It wasn’t super-complicated… (LAUGHS!) And there was all this stuff about: oh you got to be hard on him, you want him to be strong, you need him to be tough, all these justifications for bad behavior.
Emmy: How we treat our boys.
NO: it’s just cruelty and so I was like, ‘No, nope, we’re going to be nice, that’s just what we’re doing and I’m so grateful.
Emmy: Your work with men’s groups led you to discover Shadow Work. Which you know a lot about it now, you’ve done a lot of with Shadow work. You’ve described our ‘shadow side’ as something we cannot see or refuse to see it in ourselves. Would you explain more about Shadow?
NO: Shadow is an amazing topic and I love talking about it. I’ve been working on this book for almost a year now.
Emmy: You’re writing a book on Shadow.
NO: Yes, and getting nearly close to done.
Emmy: And it’s called, Fear, Shadow, Joy, still called that? A handbook for Working with Shadow. Yes, tell us about this.
NO: That book is the long answer to the question of working with shadow.
Emmy: Excellent! We’re going to have an answer soon! It’ll be published in April!
NO: It’ll be done in first week in April, that’s my plan. Shadow is one of that things that has a simple explanation, it’s all the things within us that we can’t see. The trick
If you really think about it, what does that mean? How is it possible that there could be something beyond my conscious awareness? Because our conscious awareness is all we have. If conscious awareness is all we have. So if you’re talking about something outside thelimits of conscious thoughts
What are really talking about?
Emmy: If I can’t see it, how can I ever know it? How do I know it even exists?
NO: How can I possibly know it? It’s tricky because It’s calling into a question a core of western thought. Which is rationality is everything
The bedrock of civilization, but shadow says, “Oh, yeah, but….”
Emmy: “Here I am!”
Emmy: An interesting analogy you use is driving a car and having a blind spot. I find that very helpful.
NO: Good, fantastic! well, the basic idea is when you’re working with shadow, one of the important things that you have to understand but it’s not a flaw. Sometimes shadow could lead to behavior that is considered to be undesirable. But the thing itself is not a flaw
It’s just a thing that everyone has.
Emmy: Like a literal shadow when you stand in the sun.
NO: It indicates that you are there! It’s an indication of your existence. It’s a key part of being a human being. It’s kind of hard to understand, there are some tricks, it requires some slight-of-hand and a little voodoo to kind of get into it.
But, it’s not a flaw, so using the analogy of when you’re in a car, there’s a blind spot between your mirrors. And that isn’t a flaw in the car, and it’s not a flaw in you, it’s just a fact of driving a car.
That there will be a spot between your mirrors, behind you, that from the vantage of the driver’s seat, in the terms of a person, you’re the one in charge of you, so, you’re the driver of you. There’s stuff you can’t see.
Emmy: And other people can see it!
NO: And other people can see it!
Emmy: That’s what’s so wonderful about it.
NO: Right. That’s just a fact, a truth, a reality for everybody. The other thing about the analogy that is helpful is that it invites the idea of how helpful it is to have other people with you when you’re doing shadow work. To do shadow work within the context of a group or compatriots or friends who are interested, whatever it is, more than one person.
If you’re backing your car out of your driveway in a crowded neighborhood, where there’s kids darting around, you can wave to your neighbor and say, “Hey, would you spot me coming out of the driveway so I don’t run somebody over!” (laughs)
Emmy: It helps to have a little help there.
NO: Exactly. So, that’s where the analogy is that shadow does damage: unresolved shadow can do harm.
Emmy: And you also give the example of that shadow doesn’t have to be some dangerous part of ourselves. You said that it could be like our creativity could be our shadow. Can you explain that a little bit?
NO: The idea is that most shadow is generated by trauma from childhood. Usually around the ways that social norms were enforced. And this culture, social norms are enforced with violence.
Emmy: And this is for men and women, is that true?
NO: Yes, that’s how things are done. Either shame or violence or both. Shame and violence are pretty intense weapons to use against children. A lot of the social norms that are really common, are un-livable. They go against a lot of really common human behavior. Things that are perfectly fine or really good traits in young people.
Emmy: Such as?
NO: One of the ones is daydreaming. Daydreaming is, can be, a sign of creativity. It can be the sign that a creative brain is starting to develop. Daydreaming is the process of imagination. So, a kid could be doing that and getting into that experience and starting to develop a rich internal life. But the social norm says sit in your seat and learn math for an hour, and then learn English for an hour.
Emmy: Or just be productive!
NO: Or something, but anything but that! It’s common practice to really come down on kids. It’s getting less that way, but when I was growing up, the hammer would come down if you were daydreaming, that was a no-no.
Then the kid sitting there going, okay, this is a part of me. This is a beautiful part of me, this is an essential part of my existence this thing that’s growing, I don’t’ understand it, but I know it’s good.
And I’m getting all this negative feedback from the adults about this thing that is a part of me. That starts to interfere with their survival drive. If they’re not pleasing the adults, that’s bad. And for young children, your survival, you’ve got to be pleasing the adults in whatever way or whatever their expectations they have, you’ve got to be meeting those expectations.
Emmy: So, you start hiding that aspect of yourself. It becomes hidden in your shadow. Eventually.
NO: Yep. Because if there’s a battle between survival drive, and pretty much anything, survival drive is going to win. Even if it’s some real essential, vital part of the young person, something really important like their creativity or their imagination or who knows what, and so survival drive has a tendency to win. And so those things are going to become unsafe, and whatever is getting you sanctioned is unsafe.
Not just ignored, but deleted. Because it’s so unsafe that’s how developing brain works, it’s just gone!
As an adult, there can just be a vague sense of being unfulfilled. “You know, I was once creative, why am I not creative still? “
Emmy: Or, “I’m not a creative person!”
NO: Or a fear of it or a really strong reaction to that because there’s pain there or wound there.
Who knows what? That’s how some people arrive at doing shadow work is they feel something wrong. Or they remember, “I used to be really creative.” Or “Why is this…?”
Emmy: I miss this!
NO: Something’s missing, and so they can start investigating. And that’s not dealing with something dark and terrible, that’s a vital part of your essential being that’s gone, unavailable.
Emmy: And so much of it is cultural, like traditionally, for girls it was you weren’t to be smart, so you would hide being smart, because being pretty was valued. I know a lot of grown women who don’t think they’re smart, for example.
NO: And that’s another one! Things like, boys don’t cry thing, and really hard on our young boys and enforcing that norm, it’s completely unnatural, really wounds them badly.
And on the flipside, not really a flipside, but a lot of girls, there’s the agreeable package. You know, where you are supposed to smile a lot, don’t be too smart, be positive, don’t upset the men. Keep a low profile. There’s a lot of that stuff. For a lot of young girls, that doesn’t fit who they are at all.
If they’re smart, it they’re motivated, if they’re opinionated, if they’re fierce, if they’ve got a lot to say, they’ve got a lot to do. They’re faced with that same paradox of, what do I do? This is who I am and I’m getting the message that it’s wrong! That puts a huge amount of pressure on a young developing brain! It’s rough!
Emmy: With your book, can individuals use your book or is it really for group work?
NO: The idea is that this is written for an individual reader. Everything is written as if you were to do it on your own. But then there is a 2nd version, for every exercise there are ‘notes for groups’. And so if you have a group or you have developed the group or read half way or whatever it is, and you end up in a group environment, there are notes for discussion prompts, facilitation, and how that would kind of function in a group environment.
I’m encouraging people if they have access to a group or they can find a group, to do the work in a group setting, That’s the best case. But I understand that’s not something everyone can access.
Emmy: How can people get your book once it’s ready?
NO: It will be available on my website: www.nickoredson.com
Emmy: We’ll get that information to people.
Sure. Nick! The Campus Connection Circle! This is something you’re currently involved with at Southern Oregon University. I know this was part of your Master’s project. You recently received your Master’s degree in Education at OSU. Tell us about this: The Campus Connection Circle!
NO: Right, I love talking about it. Doing this men’s work outside of the campus environment is totally a separate thing. Circle work in the men’s work environment was so helpful in my life, so that was such a positive thing for me.
So when I started graduate studies, I was interested in a variety of things, I started looking into Emotional Intelligence Education and how this was going to work, looking for a focus within a education degree, because I had a higher education focus, so was it going to administration, what was I going to specialize in?
And I just came across the actual numbers of how bad the mental health crisis is nationally on college campuses. It’s an incredibly, terrible problem. Basically, everything is doubled in the last 10 years.
Emmy: Oh my gosh. When you say everything, you mean things like, depression, anxiety,…
NO: Depression. Anxiety. Suicide. Attempted Suicide. All of it.
Doubled. National averages, doubled. That’s an incredible thing. So, the mental health resources are expensive! It takes three months to get a mental health appointment at OSU.
Emmy: As a student.
NO: Three-month lead time. Everyone in that office is working as hard as they can, it’s not like the people aren’t doing a good job. Mental health professionals are expensive to hire,
The demand is just skyrocketed, budgets are going down. It’s a terrible situation.
And so I started thinking about how I.. seeing such a need like that, what could I do, how could, well, maybe I could this so I started thinking about maybe we could do some sort of circle thing and transpose all the way men’s group experience works and transpose it into format that would work on campus.
Emmy: For all students regardless of gender.
NO: Right. Mixed gender. Campus environment. Probably not a 3-hour format, a bunch of stuff, and I started thinking. Initially I was pretty much intimidated by that because the men’s group is so…You’d have to change the wording of…you’d have to rewrite all of it, it’s a giant project….
And to make it appropriate for college students.
Men’s work is messy: there’s a lot of profanity, and noise, yelling, pretty fire-worky stuff.
So I thought, I don’t know if this is going to work in the student lounge; we going to getting calls, getting the police called on us. And so we’re going to have to do some stuff with the format.
And so I took a class in the spring of ’19, a graduate class. and it was a circle. They were doing circle work in this class, as part of class!
We’d sit in a circle; we did a little personal growth exercises. There was a little reflection and discussion, and journaling. I was really impressed with how the students were just rolling with this material.
They were completely into it, ready to go. Just ask them how they’re feeling and they’ll tell you. It was amazing how ready the students were to engage with stuff like what I was thinking about.
So over that summer, that’s what I’m going to do for my thesis: I’m going to create this format. So, I worked on it all summer, and transposed all the stuff, took out the things that wouldn’t work, put in some activities that would be more appropriate and thought about the time frame and then I pitched it in the fall of ’19, to the Vice president of Admissions and to the Dean of Students.
And I was ready for a battle. I think I was in my head space of when I was an undergraduate.
Emmy: This wouldn’t have been appropriate.
NO: No chance! No way! (laughs)
Emmy: Wouldn’t fly.
NO: They would be like, “What?” “This is sink or swim, if you can’t take it, go home.”
Emmy: You were ready for that.
NO: And I was ready for the battle. And I remember, I gave my opening, 4 minutes, 6 minutes or something and I gave my pitch with my visuals, whatever.
And they were like, “Great! When can you do it?” It was 8 minutes (laughs) and then they said ‘yes’! and I went, “okay!” and then we launched it that winter.
Emmy: And in your circle, if I’m correct, you have faculty, you have stuff, you have students, intentionally. Not just students.
NO: Yep. So, everyone who was interested who I’d shared the idea with on campus, I
invited to come. We were going to do it twice: 2 meetings, separate from the open meeting for everybody, just have two meeting to test this out. It was 2 faculty, 3 studetns, a staff member, and a community member.
That group of people… it just happened that way, and they were interested, and so I thought, “this would be great, this will be a perfect test, and I can get feedback.” We met twice in January of ’20.
And the end of the 2nd meeting, I said, “Thanks everybody, this has been great, really helpful. Thanks a lot!”
And they were like, “We want to keep going!” And so that became open to anybody. It was publicized, it was in the schedule, the campus schedule.
And every now and then we got a drop in! So we had a few drop ins that came and stayed. And then we had drop ins off and on who came once or twice and left, whatever.
Emmy: What kinds of topics do you discuss at these forums?
NO: I had six or eight things that I just brought. But, since then we’ve been meeting for 55 weeks now, so I just go on what people are interested in. Right now, someone brought up anger a couple of weeks ago. They had something that really made them angry, and they were having a hard time and they had a bunch of questions, so I said, “okay!”
So, I collected all my notes about the years about anger, it’s a big file (laughs) That’s been a tough one, that’s been a long road for me. So, I just put together all my notes and sent it out.
And then we’ve been discussing anger for 3 weeks. If we get to the end, we have a 90- minute format, if we get to the end, if we haven’t finished, we’ll just keep going.
Emmy: Can I just read a few things, you have a summary here that you have given me on potential activities. Circle work. Some of it is:
Non-violent communication
Shadow mapping exercise, we talked about shadow.
Core Reflection
Working with Family Expectations
Answering the question, “What didn’t you get?”
These are really fascinating, deep topics!
NO: I’m thrilled and what I’ve really enjoyed about that is A) how willing people are to dive into stuff like that that, and it’s not always fun. You start pushing past the police tape, the Do Not Cross line and who knows?
You’re going into the sub sub-basement where the guard says, “Oh no, you don’t want to know anything about that.” It’s not fun stuff!
Emmy: And it’s mixed gender and it’s different age groups.
NO: Yes! Yes! That’s been another thing about it. Prior to this I had very little experience with mixed gender groups. I’ve had a few experiences that were just electrifying, like the most amazing, I saw the potential of that.
Because of the chemistry, the real issue for everybody to feel safe. In a missed gender group, there’s a default, particularly the men, there’s a default attitude of potentially, unless it’s moderated very carefully, you know, the men can do all the talking, the men can ignore what the women are saying. You know, there can be all kinds of really negative dynamics going on. And so that really hasn’t happened.
Emmy: I’m sure that is a challenge to make sure everyone feels safe there.
NO: Because of the personalities involved, the mix is slightly more women than men, the dynamics, the mixed gender dynamics have been really positive.
Emmy: And it takes a good facilitator…
NO: And I feel really good about succeeding with that. That was a top priority. To able to facilitate a mixed gender group successfully so everyone feels safe and heard, that was the top goal. And I am, I’m really happy that I can do that.
Emmy: Congratulations!
NO: I give the people a lot of credit, but I worked on it really hard, I did.
Emmy: And you have a goal for this! You have handbooks. You’ve got a “how to” for other campuses. What’s your ultimate goal for this?
NO: Well, the idea, is, so my thesis, I created these handbooks: A handbook for facilitators, a handbook for participants and then a handbook for how to start a support group on campus. How to get one started.
My ultimate goal is that this kind of circle is just part of every campus culture, just part of your undergraduate experience, and part of your undergraduate experience is that. you have a support circle, if they want one. The normal part of that experience is that you have a group.
Once I finish the book, it would be the process of promoting that idea, with the binders supporting that idea, with the book supporting that idea.
Emmy: That’s so wonderful.
NO: And ideally, that’s what I’m envisioning, is that this is just everywhere.
Emmy: That’s really wonderful, Nick. I think that would have been awesome my freshman year. I can’t even imagine. I think half these topics would have gone over my head, to tell you the truth. (laughs) But just to feel you had a safe circle to go to especially that first confusing year.
And it’s your first year away from your family. All of it.
NO: Yep. And the activities, are pretty much okay and people are like, “Yeah, I’m ready for a challenge!”
That’s an important part of it, that it’s primarily in the format that it was created, primarily there to support students in crisis. That’s its mission.
Emmy: So, it’s been almost 10 years since what you’re describing the crisis hit you. Not quite. How would you describe your life now in terms of the journey you’ve been on over the past 9 years or so.
NO: With the perspective I have now, I understand that what I went through had meaning. That suffering had meaning. Because now, I can support people who are going through something similar. Because I’ve been through it!
It isn’t something I read about in some book, I lived it. And so while it was happening, it was just suffering. It had no meaning.
No sense of it having a shape, or having some part of some bigger piece, or anything, it was just terrible. But now I can see that that’s the meaning in that experience. I’m greater equipped to be of service because of that experience and so that, if you think of it in terms of “The Hero’s Journey”, that’s where you return from the Underworld with something of value that’s valuable to the tribe or your community. That’s how this feels is coming into that understanding how that means something.
And it’s of value because it came from somewhere dark!
Emmy: Beautiful. and your wound become your greatest strength.
NO: Yeah, that’s amazing! That’s a reality, and I’m experiencing it and that what is happening.
Emmy: And if I may ask at this point in your life, at age 55, do you have any advice would you give young men?
NO: I really encourage young people to listen to their internal voice as much as possible because they’re the ones…they’re our only hope in this situation is to step out of the way and to let the young people…. They’re the ones coming in fresh from beyond. They’ve got the new ideas, they haven’t been ruined and spoiled by the world. They’re fresh and they’re bringing in the ideas that are going to save us.
Emmy: And that’s how to be an authentic male, yes, to listen to your own voice.
NO: Yes. For sure.
Emmy: That’s how to be the Sacred Masculine.
NO: Yes, is to trust that internal direction. And to cultivate it. It doesn’t just…it needs a little e food and water. And an invitation.
Emmy: It’s needs some nurturing, the feminine aspect.
NO: Yeah, it needs an invite. And maybe a comfy chair. “Come on in!” At least acknowledging like a welcoming attitude towards your eternal place for it to even has a chance to manifesting.
That’s something I really learned from my son. His entirety, from the first moment he was on this planet. When I looked at him, he was 100% him! I just need to keep him safe and kind of stay out of the way when it’s time for him to go.
Emmy: He’s already perfect!
NO: He’s already amazingly perfect. This guy’s got it all! I’m so grateful for that experience.
I was able to witness that perfection, because then I can think, that was me! And that means I was perfect, and how can I connect to that perfection myself. And so that was a big part of his gift to me was that awareness. And also the wisdom of how powerful children are when they arrive.
My daughter was the same way: she was completely her. She was just good to go! (LAUGHS!)
Emmy: I had the same experience when my daughter when she was born. I said, this is just complete perfection. I should step out of the way and just keep her safe.
NO: It’s amazing, isn’t it amazing! Wow, I’m so glad you had that too.
Emmy: Nick, thank you so much for meeting with me today. It’s been wonderful.
NO: Really nice to talk to you, Emmy.
For more information, or to find out how to purchase Nick’s book, please visit his website: www.nickoredson.com.
Music by: Manpreet Kaur @manpreetkaurmusic
Thank you for listening.