Ask A Dude with Sam: Conversations with a Young Man Episode 6 Part 1

In this Episode, Emmy and a young man named Sam engage with Nick, in response to the list of "What it is to be a real man."

Music by Lemon Music Studio at Pixabay.

www.sacred-truths.com

Transcript

Welcome to Episode 6, Part 1 of Ask a Dude, where our panel consists of myself and Sam as we share with our dude, Nick Oredson. Ask a Dude with Sam: Conversations with a Young Man. This is Sacred Truths with Emmy Graham. 

Hello and welcome to Ask a Dude. This is Emmy Graham, and today, I'm very happy to introduce our dude, Nick Oredson. Hi, Nick. 

Nick:  Hi, folks. Great to be here. 

Emmy: And we have a guest with us today, Sam. Hi, Sam. Thanks for coming today.

Sam:  Hi, thank you for having me. 

Emmy:  I’d like to start by just introducing why we're all here today. Episode 5 of our ‘Ask A Dude’ podcast, part 1, which we published live at the end of January of 2024. Nick read his list of what it is to be a real man. And I understand, Sam, that you have listened to this podcast in particular. And, I find this so intriguing because—can I ask you your age, Sam? 

Sam:  Yeah, I am 24. 

Emmy:  24, so you were born around 2000. 

Sam: Yes, yeah. 

Emmy: Okay, and just in comparison, I was born in the 1960’s. And I find this really fascinating because we're here today to kind of get your input on your thoughts as a young person on Nick's list. So I open it to the two of you. I know you've also had discussions privately. And I thank you for your willingness to share on this podcast today. So, I just opened the discussion, however it unfolds. 

Nick:  So, what's really interesting to me is if there were any of the elements on that list that really stood out, where you went, Oh…, for some reason, something that you've been thinking about, never heard said. I don't know, but any parts of the list that really stood out during your experience. And that's one question. But then, certainly any additions, anything that you felt, was missing or anything that you just were like, What? No, I have never, no, not on my list. I've never even heard that. So, that's kind of three questions in one, but that's kind of my starting point. And that was, when we talked, that was what was interesting to me. 

Sam: Yeah, first off, I want to say that when I first heard the list, that was like a really, really intense experience for me. It was almost kind of like a little mini awakening, just kind of like, oh my gosh, like these things that I've been kind of struggling with, kind of like struggling to articulate my whole life. Just right there in front of me in a list format, that was like, yeah, a really kind of interesting, kind of incredible experience hearing those. So, really the whole list really resonates with me. I don't really think that I have anything to add to the list that's kind of new. I think it's just different little variations. There are a couple that don't resonate with me as much. The emphasis on lying, I don't know if I like got that as much. There's one, that's like, being able to do a job that I hate. I don't think that would necessarily resonate with me as much. But I think every other one, like really, I don't know, I've definitely experienced it at some point. I think that kind of the main changes to the list that I had, maybe this was kind of a change to one point you had…It’s about not talking about the list. 

Nick: Right, classic. [laughs]

Sam:  [laughs] Yeah, because I think that, like all the stuff on the list, is like, still very much alive. But it's just, kind of about, I think maybe for young people now, it's about doing those things but concealing them or kind of making them palatable to people. Like, I thought about, for example, feminism. Now it's not so much explicit that you can't be a feminist or like do anything, have anything to do with feminism. It's about, as a man you're supposed to, like, a little bit, but only insofar as it kind of helps your own social standing, if that makes sense. And like, exactly that much and no more, and not to actually fight for the rights of women or anybody else. Yeah. 

Nick:  Wow. So it's still, let me know if I'm characterizing it right. So, if you think about this like an ideology, I don’t actually know what the definition of an ideology is, but to say…It’s a set of ideas that is either explicitly or implicitly lived by. So the underlying ideology is unchanged and still constant. But there's kind of this posturing or appearing for appearances doing some of these things like behavior without any of the underlying ideology being addressed or even talked about. Is that accurate? 

Sam:  Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's like, if I were to read this list to one of my male friends from, you know, back in high school, it would be like, what are you talking about? Like, all that stuff is like horrible. But it's still, to me, is still clearly a really important part of how men operate in the world. Yeah. 

Nick: Wow. 

Emmy:  Just a clarification, Sam, when you say how men operate in the world, do you mean men of your generation? 

Sam:  Yes. And, I guess all men. Yeah. 

Emmy:  Can I ask you, if you feel comfortable relating, how - so I'm trying to understand, when I heard this list, Nick, for me, was the first time I had ever heard these things named that I already knew, but didn't have a language for. I am wondering if that resonates with you—like you knew it but didn’t have a language for it. And, I am also curious on how you navigate your life now knowing that is the rule book but you don’t want to operate in that rule book. How does it play out for you?

Sam: Yeah, I think what was surprising to me was how not surprising or shocking anything on this list really was. I think if you grow up as a man in this world, all this just makes sense. Yeah. And I think it really, it did just kind of articulate what I had been feeling. Yeah. And so, my response to hearing it wasn't so much like surprise, like, wow, my gosh, it was more just kind of like dread: oh my gosh, like, wow, this is so dark. Yeah. As to what it's like being a man who's trying to kind of undo these things. I feel like it's really only been kind of recently, in the past, like, maybe end of high school. But honestly, in the past year or two, that seeing all these things and realize that this is exactly who I don't want to be and this is who I am going to try not to be. 

Nick:  I think that we could have, and maybe should have, an entire podcast just on the topic of what are the alternatives, because that's a big question, for me, for sure. I feel like there was a lot of value in naming these things and having this, putting words to something that seemed to be at the edge of a lot of people's consciousness, but maybe not explicitly there. And so it got people's attention for that reason. But I've also been thinking about there has to be a positive definition of being a guy, something that is oriented around action and purpose that is a positive standard, not just sitting around not harming people. You know, just like, go home. Your best place is on the couch, because you won't hurt anybody. Don't do or say anything. And I've been thinking about that a lot. So, we can talk about that now. I mean, if you have a response to that, I'm interested, of course, but also meet to have a podcast just for that, I think. 

Sam:  Cool. Yeah, that's a super interesting question. Because yeah, it's like, okay, now that we know that men shouldn't be all these things. But what is there? For me, I think it's important to leave it up to interpretation. Like for me, there's no, I don't think there's necessarily a definition of what a man should be. I think that it really depends on the person, depends on the culture. Yeah, it's a really interesting question. And, I think that, that's something that I've kind of learned a bit about, like if you're being friends with people who are non-binary or trans people that, like, I don't know, like maybe, there is no definition, we can just kind of make it how we want to be. 

Emmy:  Do you think women in your generation are more forthright about calling men out on their own bullshit? 

Sam:  I couldn't speak to other generations. I don't really know exactly the difference. But I would say, yes, I think that those, the women that I learned a lot from, like, those I did debate in high school, for instance. And, there are a lot of girls that were not afraid to just tell some, they were not afraid to say if they felt that somebody said something that they didn't like. Yes, I guess that has changed. Hopefully, I like to think so. 

Nick:  One of the things I've really thought a lot about, especially today, again, seeing this printed out, Emmy, printed out a copy of the list here. So I'm sitting here looking at it now, while we're talking. And, there's a certain impact that it has, looking at it, and how long it is and how extensive it is—to just how much is in there, a lot of darkness on one list. But I've really thought about or wondered, like, I've really wondered where it came from. Because I don't remember anyone ever explicitly telling me any of this, at least in my memories. I don't know how I got that list. And, for something that extensive, it is, you know, it is a question for me. So I was just wondering if you had any response to that or what you think of that, like origin, the origin of this thing, where did it come from? 

Sam: That is such an interesting question. And, I really thought about that on the episode of the podcast where you all discussed this, where it was, Deborah that brought up that, like, you know, maybe it's something to do with written law. 

Nick: Oh, yeah. 

Emmy: Yeah. 

Sam:  Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting to speculate. Because it's clear that there are so many counter examples for definitions of what a man should be in different cultures and different indigenous cultures. And, yeah, part of me thinks that some of this has its origins in the West and in European colonization, because I think about Japan, for example. I think now Japan has very strict generals that are very similar to the West. But I know that there are a lot of parts of that that were different before Japan opened up its borders. Like, for example, opinions on homosexuality. Like, before Japan opened up its borders, it was very acceptable for men to have sex with each other. Yeah, it's interesting, because I think that if you look at this list and you think of all these things as like, kind of natural to society, but it's really also unnatural. 

Emmy: I know, Sam, you told me you spent six months in Japan last year. I have also lived in Asian countries. And, so I ask this question, knowing what it did for me. Did being out of the United States, give you any insight into who you are as a man or who you were taught to be, what you were taught to be as a man based on our culture by just not being in the United States? Or what was the impact of that on you? 

Sam:  I would say that the impact was really big on me. When I went on a big exchange last year for six months in Japan, I think part of it was seeing different ways of being for men. And also, I think it was seeing positive ways of being from women. And this honestly wasn't even like a cultural thing, but I just, kind of going on exchange, you kind of like become a new person. Or there's a lot of like, you're going to decide who you are and decide how you want to be and who you want to be friends with. And, that kind of gave me a moment to reflect because I just kind of realized the people that I want to be with are mostly not men. And, just kind of maybe realized, l really just feel way more comfortable around women and non-binary folk. And so that was a big kind of realization for me. And like Nick said in the podcast, there are very few men that you can spend time with. I really feel like that's true. I think that that's something that I really struggled with my whole upbringing. I'm a man and I was mostly friends with men. And in a lot of ways, I fit.  I'll say I was a pretty good man. Like, I'm a straight white guy who plays sports. I was on the soccer team. But like, deep down, like, I think I always never felt comfortable or safe around other men, you know, around toxic masculinity. And, that's been really a really big learning experience for me, kind of like figuring that out and figuring out growing up, I’ve kind of always felt way more comfortable around, like, not around toxic men. It's just kind of been more recently that I really been able to just see that really clearly. And, like why that is. 

Emmy:  I can't help but ask if you would share, how do you feel when you're with gay men? 

Sam:  Definitely more comfortable than I am with straight men, I would say. I feel like whenever I meet a new straight man, there's always this like, I have to really think about what I'm going to say.  I kind of feel like I'm like putting on this performance almost. But with most new gay men that I meet, they get it. Yeah, I just, I definitely feel more safe with myself, with them, yeah.  

[Music] This is Sacred Truths with Emmy Graham, with music by Lemon Music Studio from Pixabay, and with special thanks to our dude, Nick Oredson. This concludes Episode 5, Part 1 of Ask a Dude with Sam: Conversations with a Young Man. Please join us for Part 2. Please visit our website at sacred-truths.com. Thank you for listening. [Music]