Ask a Dude with Sam: Conversations with a Young Man, Episode 6, Part 3

Emmy and a young man named Sam, continue their discussion with Nick. 

Music by Lemon Music Studio at Pixabay 

www.sacred-truths.com

Transcript

Welcome to Episode 6 Part 3, of Ask a Dude, where our panel consists of myself and Sam, as we share with our dude Nick Oredson. Ask a Dude with Sam: Conversations with a Young Man. This is Sacred Truths with Emmy Graham. 

Sam:  Yeah, I wrote down that one of the things that stood out to me about Nick’s list was that, yeah, men don't have feelings. Feelings are in the way. Just get those out of there. That's something I feel like I really identified with. Yeah. And not even so much just feelings but like, opinions on any issue or any subjectivity if there's some social issue. Taking any stance on an issue, any like, feeling a certain way about something is a bad thing. I feel like masculinity is so about objectivity and there's just no space for how we feel as a person and if you feel a certain way about something that's invalid because there's a way that it actually is. 

Nick: So, that definitely tracts for me for sure and the idea that somehow there's some place where there's an objective truth, that isn't about our perceptions, that's separate. Like the universe exists in some fixed way and we need to find out what that is exactly. Like the court of law. Like we need to say okay what is this absolute truth of this universal truth here? How do we perceive it? And it's only one way. And that's such a...That feels very constricting to me. Whereas, it's like, well, we each have our experiences and we have our beliefs and experiences and feelings and that's fine. Two people can go see a movie and feel two different ways. No problem. It's all fine. There isn't one way to feel about a movie or an event or anything else. 

Emmy: Yeah, that sheds a lot of insight for me on how you're supposed to feel when you see a movie. There is only one reaction to the movie and if I don't have that reaction there's something wrong with me or I'm dismissed. And name anything. A book, a movie or a bit of music or perhaps just somebody who even goes to the theater is dismissed for going to the theater. I mean there's like these absolutes that I've experienced - that's really well articulated. It makes a lot of sense to me. Absolutes of how women are to be in the home. There's these absolutes and there's different grades of them. But I feel, I can say that, depending on the man, I feel timid to share my opinion with a man, with a straight man about a movie for example. Because I'm pretty sure I'll be put down if it's not in agreement with his. And so, then I withdraw and then there's no connection. Again! No connection. Over something as silly or as simple as a movie. Not that all movies are simple. Some of them are complex topics but I don't feel safe. 

Sam: Yeah, I love that movie example because I feel like I have had that experience with so many of my male friends. Yeah, like why can't I just like this movie or this piece of music or this…whatever. Why does there have to be this, like, oh this is good or this is bad. And then it's like, if there are two differing opinions on it, then they have to compete and they can't just be side by side. Yeah, I think that's so interesting. And, yeah, I think this kind of goes back to the written law thing about how kind of entrenched masculinity is with our systems of punishment and policing too. There is no objectivity in that stuff. And whenever somebody says that there is, they're usually just trying to upload this system of power. And that might not be the same for movies and stuff like that. But yeah, I think that's a really interesting example. 

Nick: Yeah, I love the movie example because it's the nearest thing to an identical experience. Like you actually go into a building, you sit and if you're going to be talking to someone about the movie later you're sitting next to them. And you're seeing the same distance from the same exact thing. And you can just have a completely different experience. And, it's the identical thing. It's incredible how much friction is developed around just an opinion about a movie or not even an opinion just the experience of a movie. Like, well, this is how I felt and that was really moving and that was really interesting and I didn't understand that or that was boring and whatever, just causes all these problems. Just basic experience, just reporting what you felt is a problem. It's really very strange when you're aware of it. But it has to be, I don't know, I guess it's about being right. Like the need to be right or the need to be. There is a way, there is right, there is wrong, you know, it's very fine, I don't know what it is. But somehow it causes all these problems. Someone was telling me about Sartre, I'll say his name wrong, John Paul Sartre. He had a psychedelic experience and he afterwards, he took too much of something, mescaline or something and he saw crabs around him for 12 years. He blew a gasket somewhere in there and there was just this group of crabs that just followed him around for 12 years. [chuckling] And they were polite. He would go into class, he was teaching and he would ask them to be quiet during class and they would, just go in and take a nap while he was teaching. And so, he just got used to dealing with this kind of crew of crabs that hung out with him for a decade. [laughing] And, no one else could see them. So, if someone came up to me and said, well, I did too much mescaline 12 years ago and there's some crabs with us. I see crabs around my feet and they'll be quiet and polite while we're talking but there are crabs here with me. I mean, you could just say, “Okay, you know, tell me more about that. Just let me know if you need anything.” I mean, the fact that they're perceiving something that I'm not perceiving doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter at all. Or, if I'm perceiving something that nobody else is, well, I think we're the only civilization in history that's organized ourselves around insisting that everyone has to see the same thing all the time. I mean, what kind of idea is that? [chuckling] That’s not going to work very well. Everyone's seeing all kinds of things all the time. 

Emmy:  I think that's wonderful. It addresses tolerance. It addresses individuality, how uniquely different we all are from each other and how wonderful that is in many ways. And, I just want to speak to the movie thing again because it's really great that we brought this up. It's making me think a lot. I now know, at this point in my life, at age 61, I don't want to go to a movie with a man. I just don't. You know, it's a perfect first date, right? Let's go see a movie. Wrong! I am someone who really likes to analyze movies and talk about them and I don't like fluffy movies that have no meaning. So movies mean a lot to me if I go see a movie and I realize, oh, I have my movie going friends. And that is so satisfying to me because I like to talk about the movie afterwards. With an intelligent person who can receive my opinions, maybe disagree entirely, but it's safe and it's fun. 

And, the other thing I've noticed is often because of mainstream Hollywood and especially being a young woman in the 80s, I would go to a movie that I found very offensive. And God forbid I said those words to the man I was with. Well, I found it offensive or I found that scene offensive. It's shut down immediately. Like, wow, there isn't even discussion from my experience of being female on this planet and responding to that. They were highly entertained, perhaps, by it. And Nick and I have talked about this the way it's just like, there's no discussion. It's just shut down and it's on the list. You know, it's on the list. So I really like the movie example because it's such a part of our American culture. Let's go see a movie! It can be such a unifying, fun experience and it can be a disaster. [laughing] 

Sam: Yeah, I feel like the movie example is really making me think. I feel like it goes back to another point that was sort of on Nick's list. I think that was like, don't, I forget what he said exactly, but it's kind of like, don't challenge the status quo or something. Yeah, I feel like it goes back to the ‘don't talk about the list’ because you're not supposed to challenge this like objective male view of our world. You're not supposed to think about the movie in a different way. You're not supposed to speak out about social issues or things that are important. I think that those things are all connected. You know, it seems kind of weird. And I have a weird, interesting example. I just watched this documentary on Netflix about alien encounters. I think I was talking to you, Nick, a little bit about it, but I think like my whole life, I have been so like, oh, like, there's nothing else than like what I see. There's no aliens. Like, I'm an atheist. I'm not a spiritual person. But like, this documentary, which was just about different alien encounters from around the world, it was just kind of people's accounts of them. I think, kind of what spoke to me about the documentary wasn't necessarily that like, oh, there are aliens or there are not. But it was like how important it was for these people who would have these encounters or clearly like they experienced something. And it was really important to have their feelings be validated and, just for them to be recognized and for them to be heard. I think that was like kind of like the main point to me or what spoke out to me. And, yeah, kind of going off that, the one kind of example that kind of relates to this is social media. When there's like an issue like let's say a war or something that's going on, and people are like upset about the US's involvement in the war or something like that. I can very clearly see like, the hierarchy of like who's talking about this and speaking out about it and who's not, or like, you know, who's on social media talking about the importance of trans lives and trans rights and stuff like that. And it's not like the people, like, white men will never say anything about it, straight white men, in my experience, just on my social media. And then people that talk about more are like women and people of color and LGBTQ+ people. And I guess, because there's just this masculine idea of like, we don't want to like challenge the status quo or like create change in the world because, you know, we want to uphold the status quo. We want more benefit from it. I think that ties back into the whole objectivity thing, is that there is no subjective opinions on these like different issues. There's just one right and like that's it and everything else is just wrong. 

Emmy: Well, I'd like to ask you a question, Nick, and it might be related to this whole discussion. I'm not sure. I realize when you read your list, the very last one I didn't quite understand. 

Nick: Oh

Emmy: So, I'll read it. And, it is making mistakes is unacceptable. There are very high stakes if I make a mistake. If I make a mistake, people die and there is no room for failure. And so what I'd like to ask you is, is it making a mistake? For example, if you somehow do something on the list that you're not supposed to do, like you make yourself vulnerable, is that the mistake or it says lying and cheating is okay as long as I don't get caught—is getting caught the mistake?  Or, is the mistake, like, I didn't get the promotion and so I don't have the status I really want to have. What is a mistake to this person, to this list? What is a mistake? 

Nick:  I really thought about that in terms of, that's really talking about making mistakes at work .

Emmy: At work… 

Nick: At work. Yeah. And, it must come from, maybe from farming, I guess, like from just having a small family farm where if the guy made a mistake, it was going to be bad for his family. And so mistakes just became so little margin for error. And that's how it feels that that comes from that. Because modern work, a lot of modern work doesn't have stakes like that. I think I have a lot of subsistence farming in my lineage where mistakes were really not good. 

Emmy: So that may not be on everyone's list, maybe it's specific to you? 

Nick:  Yeah, that might not be a universal part. It would be really interesting to actually somehow do a survey. And I don't know how you would do that. That's a tricky research design, is it? Because the whole thing is a leading question. All of it. You can't do it without leading questions. Whatever. You figure it out where you can create this list and then people could rate, give it an intensity rating, one to five, or something like that for each of these. Or no, or 10 out of 10. 

Emmy: Very true or somewhat true, or.… 

Nick:  Yeah, whatever it is, scale, Likert rating. But then you could write in, you could write in ones. And then you could see, it would probably be a bell curve. There's probably core concepts that are universal. And then, there's out of the edges, there's probably, that's just guessing, something like that. 

Emmy:  It would be fascinating. 

Sam:  Yeah. I think it would be so interesting to do a larger study of all this and see what's really true for the experience of men around the world and from different cultures and all that. Yeah, I think that would be very interesting. And yeah, I definitely want to say that I definitely felt that, don’t make mistakes. I think that definitely was on my list. 

Nick: Oh, okay. Yeah. 

Emmy:  How does that apply for you personally? What constitutes a mistake in what area? 

Sam:  That’s like being on a sports team. That's like being on a soccer team. Like, I play defense in soccer and like, that's the least manly thing that you can do, is make a mistake and lose the ball. (laughing)

Emmy:  I see. 

Nick:  Yes, yes, 

Emmy: Right. 

Sam:  Yeah, that's the thing that I really struggle with is, I think I'm so worried about making mistakes and like, making mistakes and things I say or at work and, but it's so counterproductive, right? Because like, that’s how you learn is through mistakes. That's the best way to learn, and through this experience and you can't do something right the first time you do it. Yeah, I think there might be something to masculinity that's like, passing information through, like, just directly teaching somebody or putting it in somebody, rather than through experiential learning. I think that there's probably something there. I think that maybe I talked about it in the first episode where you talked about the list, but yeah, yeah, that's interesting. [music]

This is Sacred Truths with Emmy Graham with music by Lemon Music Studio from Pixabay and with special thanks to our dude, Nick Oredson. This concludes Episode six, Part three of Ask a Dude with Sam: Conversations with the Young Man. Please join us for Part four. Please visit our website at sacred-truths.com. Thank you for listening.