Ask a Dude with Sam: Conversations with a Young Man, Episode 6, Part 4

Emmy and Sam continue their discussion with Nick.

Music by Lemon Music Studio by Pixabay

www.sacred-truths.com

Transcript

Welcome to Episode 6, Part 4 of Ask a Dude where our panel consists of myself and Sam as we share with our dude, Nick Oredson. Ask a Dude with Sam: Conversations with a Young Man. This is Sacred Truths with Emmy Graham. 

Emmy:  For me, I know I've said this, I think we've said this before, but I've had, we recorded this list in, I think we said April of 2023, because it took Nick a while to come to terms with publishing it. It was a tough, tough thing. So I've had over a year to sit with this list and to learn from it and it's just so many mysteries are no longer mysteries for me. From every relationship I've ever had with any male, any heterosexual male, from little boys in elementary school all the way up to present day, to world leaders, to everything. It's like, ohhh, it's just been so illuminating and so helpful and named as I said earlier, what I somehow knew, but could never articulate or if I tried to articulate it with a man who I trusted and thought was willing to speak, I was just shut down and he said, you do not talk about this. And as we said before, they probably don't even know they have the list, but they really defend it. 

Sam:  Yeah, I find it fascinating how kind of like illuminating this list is, and I think, especially I think for a woman, it's interesting to me that it's, yeah, like illuminates so much about your experience with men, because as a man, I feel like this, to me, is like I intrinsically, I got it already, if that makes sense. It scares me that I understood it so well, if that makes sense. It's like, just that like, oh yeah, this is not surprising to me, this all just makes perfect sense, no matter how horrible it all is. It's so funny, like my friends that I was talking about, that I met in Japan, who I'm actually going to visit in England in a couple weeks, which I'm excited about. It's a group of five girls, and I have had also kind of a similar experience with them, where it was kind of like a little like Ask A Dude podcast, or like they also like, can I ask you questions like, why do men do this stuff? [participants laughing] 

Emmy:  And they're all British?

Sam:  Yeah, I guess some of them are British, some of them are Czechs, German. Yeah, this is kind of like, why would a man do these things? Why or like what's going on inside of their heads? I don't know, yeah, just to me, when as a man, I get it, where all of it is, it's like, yeah, somehow intrinsically makes sense to me. It also doesn't make any sense at all. 

Emmy: Well, Nick, as you said repeatedly to me, this list is enforced through violence, and that's why one obeys it so thoroughly. It's, as you said, it's fearful, Sam, to talk to someone, even if you think they might be safe, because they probably aren't safe at a certain level. And somehow you'll be shamed or harmed or something will happen. It's enforced by violence, which makes it so hard to stop, I guess. 

Sam:  Yeah, absolutely. 

Nick: So, back to the movie thing just for a second, when I see a movie or one of the things about movies is they're a, you know, they're an expression of culture, they're a product of culture. And they are upholding the culture. So, if you make a comment about a movie, you're making a comment about the culture. And it's not about that one experience that you had there in that theater. And that might be why it's such an explosive experience or why there is so much energy around, like, who cares? Why? What do you think? Anyone could possibly think about a movie. Who cares? You know, five people could go and everyone could come out and just have had an absolutely different experience, not seeing all the things about what a subjective experience is. And just on that level, what could possibly energize that conversation is entertainment, like, who cares? But I think movies are more than that. So if it's something going on that relates to the culture, or is something that you observe that is a comment about the culture, then that's where the flamethrowers come out. 

Emmy: I also think it establishes the culture in many ways. I know I've talked to you, Nick, about how I... That's terrible to say. I learned how to date by watching those awful movies that were exactly not at all how I wanted to date. But I learned how I was supposed to behave as the woman. Or it was some guideline and it was just awful. 

Nick:  Oh, I see. 

Emmy:  But it's somehow accepted! Okay, this is our cultural norm. And it's actually horrifying in many ways. I'm thinking of, in particular, these movies from the 80s. It's just like, ughhh. 

Sam:  Yeah, I think that's so interesting. I mean, you're saying, like, and yeah, and if you spoke out in a lot of these movies to a guy that you went on a date with, like, you just get totally shut down. Yeah.

Nick:  At some point, the word "unnatural" came up. I think you were talking about the list and how unnatural it feels. I think that's an important word because it...I mean, there were parts of the list, and I think I talked about this, some where there, but there were parts of the list that I immediately was suspicious of and rejected. Like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, early on. It was like, I'm not going to do that. And then there were parts of the list that I sorted out later as I matured, where they were... those are just things I learned as I matured. And then there were parts of the list that I didn't know that I had. And then I discovered later, and that was probably the most unnerving part of the experience, was going, Oh, no!. Seeing something I'd been doing or thinking or an attitude or an embedded attitude, and just going, Ohh, I'm that guy! Oh, no. Oh, well. [chuckles] But that part, the ones that I was unaware of that were invisible, well, that felt natural because it had been installed either... who knows? I mean, there's a lot of... this whole process, we're not exactly sure how this install is happening anyway. We don't really know the mechanism that this has passed on. Exactly how this is actually getting transferred from generation to generation. I don't know. But those ones that were invisible, well, that just felt like that's just how things are. But as soon as I was aware of it, I saw how completely unnatural it was. And it was really in opposition to my nature and my heart. That was the thing that was really, really jarringly incompatible with me. So I think that's an important word to... things that get installed early and invisibly can feel natural. Because how would you know? How can you tell? But just because they feel natural, it doesn't mean they are natural, exactly. 

Sam:  Yeah, this list is totally unnatural. Somehow we got to all these things that this is how a man is supposed to be. And that's just the way it is. It really has nothing to do with biology or anything like that. But how, over time, as we're young, we're made to feel like these things are just natural. This is just how a man is supposed to be. This is how a woman is supposed to be. And yeah, it's been so interesting for me growing up and kind of like piecing apart those different things. That's what I really struggled with growing up was I was like, Oh, all these things, like, this is what a man is supposed to be. They're supposed to be like, Nick had stoic, hardworking, tough, confident, ambitious, charismatic, seductive, and courageous. And like, if I wasn't those things, then I was like, something was like, wrong with me. Yeah, it was like, even though I was born a man, I'm not like, fitting the definitions of a man. I'm like, I'm failing that. And yeah, I think that's just so harmful to kids growing up in this world that like, they have to be all these things that are just awful. And if they don't live up to them, then they've failed, or you know, there are some things like wrong with them. Yeah, I think it's also really interesting how like, you can't be all these things. There is no man that is all these things perfectly. It's just that they don't exist. This whole thing is just like some, it's just totally made up. There's nobody that is actually all these things. [Nick chuckles] It just isn't. And if they did exist, they'd be awful and wrong. 

Emmy:  Well, it's also interesting for me to learn how it is a system designed to control, basically, as you say, Nick, and it's like this one has stood out for me. It is very important that I don't let any feminine traits ever show in myself. And that I constantly point out and ridicule any feminine traits that I see in other men, or in events, or in things. I do this by calling an action or an event or a thing as being gay. And I would say, I remember hearing some version of that in elementary school with the boys in my class. Like, I just knew that was something that boys engaged in. And it stays with me my whole life. I saw it in high school, I saw it in college, I saw it at the work area, some version of it. And I just thought, for whatever reasons, that's how guys are, and I don't know why. So it's rather liberating to know, oh, they've been trained since little, little, little to be that way. They're not actually born that way. 

Nick:  No…no [they’re not].

Emmy:  Because it's so frustrating to just go, how do I even begin to get through to that person? Anyways, it's part of the mysteries of men, and it's rather a relief to know, okay, they aren't really that way. But it's gotten, who they really are has gotten so buried that many of them can't find it again. 

Sam:  Yeah, I think it is really important that these things are deeply entrenched in men from a young age. I've watched this one kid on the soccer team that I coached, the Youth -10 team. My nails are painted right now. And he came up to me and he said, he pointed at my nails and said, "But you're not gay." And I was like, I was so shocked, I did not know what to say. And I ended up just saying, whether I'm my nails are painted or not says nothing about my sexual preference. And it's kind of rude to say something like that.

Nick:  Well done. Well handled. 

Sam:  I just kind of asked him why he thought that having my nails painted would mean that. And he didn't really come up with any answer, because why would he? It was just kind of in him, something that was just kind of put in him. And he was just kind of regurgitating. And afterwards, of course, I checked in with him and just made sure that he wasn't homophobic obviously. It was really sad, because this kid doesn't actually have a choice whether or not this is ‘put in him’. It's just put in him. It's like, this is gay, this is not, this is good, this is bad. I don’t know…And it's all just totally made up. It's all totally unnatural. 

Emmy:  It is enormously refreshing for me to see you with your nails painted, to say, oh, we can widen that a little bit. Growing up in the era that I grew up, that was absolutely unheard of. So I feel celebratory that at least we've come this far. [chuckling]

Nick:  Yeah, I really understand that. I've observed people saying and doing things connected to the list. And they really, it is like something coming through them. Like they're momentarily possessed by something from outside of them, and sometimes with a lot of intensity. If it's violence or if it's a big reaction, it just doesn't feel like them. It's a really weird, weird, weird, weird experience. And I think that the reason I was able to articulate this thing is that I have this, I can tune in to this misogyny channel in my head. I can ask it questions or I can say, what does it mean to be a real man? And it'll start talking. That came out. But the volume is way down. I can tune into it and interact with that energy. But it doesn't feel like it's trying to grab the steering wheel and make me do something. It's not, but just as easily could. I don't really understand what the mechanism is, why it didn't take root in me or something, or whatever. I can really connect to that experience of watching it come over somebody really strongly. And then it's over. You just stand there going, did you just say that? Did that just happen? 

Emmy: Well, maybe I'm giving this too much attention. I don't know. But those kids you coach, are they ten? Did you say?  

Sam: Yeah, nine, ten, yeah. 

Emmy:  I love that, in this moment, you're a role model to that boy of how to be a straight guy. There are all kinds of ways to appear in the world as a straight guy. And this is one of them. 

Sam:  Yeah, I feel like that's a really important thing that I try to do is like, not just say to kids that I'm working with that like, "Oh, all these things are bad. Don't do these things." Yeah, give them a positive example of like, this is how you can be. You can be all these things. And it's really interesting to hear people from older generations too, because, yeah, it's interesting to see how things have changed over time and see kind of where things are rooted and like, what insights that y'all have as people that have been kind of thinking about this stuff for a long time. Yeah, that's just been so good for me to hear all those things and just throughout all the podcasts episodes that I listen to, it's just been like, yeah, I think it's just so cool that you are doing it. Yeah, I'm learning so much. I learned so much through doing this podcast. So, thanks so much for doing this podcast. 

Emmy:  That’s wonderful to hear. 

Nick:  Thank you, Sam. Yeah, this was really, this was really great. And I've learned a lot and I feel like we've made some really, really interesting discoveries. You know, we had some ideas, what we were going to talk about, some sense of it. We had the list to work with and stuff, but I think we really found some things, really added a lot to the conversation. So, I'm really, really thrilled. So, thanks for coming. 

Emmy:  Yeah, and I'd like to thank you both for being my guests today. Thank you, Nick, for coming here today. And thank you, Sam, for being here today. [music] 

This is Sacred Truths with Emmy Graham with music by Lemon Music Studio from Pixabay. And with special thanks to our dude, Nick Oredson. This concludes Episode 6, Part 4 of Ask a Dude with Sam: Conversations with a Young Man. Please visit our website at sacred-truths.com. Thank you for listening. [music]