Returns Redefined: DHL’s Acquisition Update and the Future of Returns

In this episode, join Thomas Borders, Vice President, Operations, DHL Supply Chain and Drew Taranto, Vice President, Product Management, eCommerce & Returns, DHL Supply Chain, as they discuss the recent acquisition of Inmar Supply Chain Solutions, a future-forward strategy and customer returns experiences.  

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:28:16
Unknown
Welcome to All Business. No Boundaries., a collection of supply chain stories by DHL Supply Chain, the North American leader in contract logistics. I'm your host Will Heywood. This is a place for in-depth discussions on the supply chain challenges keeping you up at night. We're breaking beyond the boundaries that are limiting your supply chain. Today's episode is Returns Redefined: 

00:00:28:20 - 00:00:44:23
DHL's Acquisition Update and the Future of Returns. Our guests are Thomas Borders, Vice President, Operations, DHL Supply Chain, and Drew Taranto, Vice President, Product Management, eCommerce and Returns also DHL Supply Chain. Let's dive in.

00:00:44:23 - 00:01:04:01
I can't say it enough. I am so excited to record this podcast. Today we're going to talk returns and reverse logistics for the first time that we've ever done it in our history, and I'm joined by two experts in that subject. I'll let you introduce yourselves first. Drew, tell us who you are and what you do.

00:01:04:02 - 00:01:29:18
Yeah. So, Drew Taranto, work for DHL. I'm the Vice President of Product Management. We've got two key services that we offer that I'm responsible for, one being eCommerce fulfillment. And the other being returns management. I've been with the company about five and a half years. And really, for us and my team, we're really responsible for making sure that the services in both those areas kind of meet what our customers are looking for, but also to start evolving with where the industry is going.

00:01:29:18 - 00:01:45:03
So, it's a little bit about me. Great. Welcome. Glad you're here. Thank you. This is your second time. This is my second time. Okay. Good. I get a badge for it, you know. We'll work on that. And then, Thomas, tell us who you are. Well, it's my first time here, and I'm excited to be here. I haven't had as many opportunities.

00:01:45:03 - 00:02:09:01
Of course we were. I work for Inmar who was acquired by DHL in January. My job is Vice President of Operations, but more specifically, I am the leader of all of the Inmar business that was acquired by DHL back in January. So, I've been with the company for about 11 years. I've been with DHL for about 90 days.

00:02:09:03 - 00:02:32:03
Good. Well, welcome. We're glad you're here on the podcast and really glad you're part of DHL. Okay, so the occasion as you mentioned, is as we did make an acquisition, which is a which is, you know, kind of, noteworthy thing for our, the DHL business overall. We'll get into that in the, you know, kind of the mechanics of the, of the integration and all in a second.

00:02:32:05 - 00:02:53:05
But I want to start with just the concept of returns. So, Drew, DHL is not a stranger to returns. Maybe talk about pre-deal. What. You know, what we, what your business was doing, how you were thinking about it. And then I want to get into a discussion around like how did things actually work in the in the real market.

00:02:53:05 - 00:03:15:04
I think as consumers we know we've had a great returns experience, but I want to sort of flip it around for from our service provider standpoint, what does it look like? So start Drew with, you know, where was DHL pre. You know back in 2024. Yeah I think you know for DHL we've been in returns for quite some time.

00:03:15:04 - 00:03:35:13
We've been supporting customers with their needs and returns. It's not like it's a new thing for us. So, I think important into kind of before this acquisition, as we look at it, it really was an interesting time kind of coming out of COVID and what we were starting to see happen in the marketplace. Retail sales started to dip because people weren't going in the store.

00:03:35:14 - 00:03:55:12
They were locked at home. So, they started to order more online. And then what that did is totally flip the script for our customers who were accustomed to, you know, single digit return rates to all of a sudden double digit. And so we started to see a really strong need for our customers to support them with, returns and being able to do that within our facilities quickly.

00:03:55:14 - 00:04:13:23
And so for us, it was kind of that spark. And, you know, we took some time, in about 2021 to really say, what is up with this space? Is there something more here than what we're doing today? And so we took that back and started to really get into the market, understand the details of what's happening.

00:04:14:01 - 00:04:31:06
And, kind of coming out of that, we recognize a couple key things. I think one, this problem has been around for a long time. But it's just now starting to spark interest in our customers to do something about it. And so we said, wow, there's a problem. And then next we saw it's continuing to grow. So that's another issue.

00:04:31:08 - 00:04:50:06
I mean, we saw in the landscape is there really wasn't anyone that was completely owning the space and really helping customers through that process, which was really what kicked off for us to kind of start the discussions with, with Inmar and trying to figure out, is there something better here that we can DHL with our size and scale to be able to help this industry?

00:04:50:08 - 00:05:13:11
Inmar has been dealing with this problem for a long time, right, Thomas? Long time. Yeah. And so while I may not be a household name, you guys were, were and now continue to be the largest provider in the space. Yeah. And really, we started 40 plus years ago in the return space. So, way pre pandemic and change in shopper behavior.

00:05:13:11 - 00:05:41:05
But even really pre eCommerce direct to consumer sales. You know we've been processing returns for of all things would you believe at grocery stores for, for 40 plus years is a core offering of Inmar's business. So, over the years we developed a network of facilities that focused on nothing but returns processing. And we come from a, an organization that did a lot of software development.

00:05:41:05 - 00:06:07:09
So, one of the things that we've done along the way is invest in ourselves, in our software to make that returns, processing more and more efficient. And so that was really the start of our journey 40 years ago. And about 11 years ago, we jumped in to going from retail returns, which are overstock, obsolete, out of date to consumer returns about 11 years ago.

00:06:07:12 - 00:06:36:19
Okay, okay. So, if I'm a consumer and I take, a package to the post office and drop it off as a return, what does it look like from the Inmar perspective? So, eventually that package will arrives, with a lot of other returns. The returns Drew made and I made all arrive on the same truck at, one of our processing facilities, and we'll sort those out by the retailer that they came from.

00:06:36:21 - 00:07:05:00
And then, using that software, we will process that return in accordance with the retailer that you had made the original purchase from, with, with their standards and how they want to get that product back into stock if it's able to be restocked. Assuming you made an honest return, it was just the wrong size. We'll get that fully packaged and ready to go and sent back to potentially DHL to re fill that to the next consumer.

00:07:05:02 - 00:07:35:09
If it's not grade A quality or there's some other reason that the retailer is given us for not wanting it back in stock. Maybe it's a discontinued item or something like that. We actually have other things we can do to drive value for our customers, which is we call remarketing or liquidation. So, we'll take all of the grade B product from a bunch of different retailers and sell that on the secondary market, to places who run flea markets and bodegas and discount stores and things like that.

00:07:35:11 - 00:08:05:12
Okay. So, you're serving though mostly retailers or what's your customer mix? It's it is retailers. Yeah. And I would break it down generally into two categories. There's retailers who have big brick and mortar presence, traditional omnichannel retailers. And then there are still many of our customers that are direct to consumer, no retail storefronts or very few retail storefronts where all of their returns come, as you described via individual packages back into our facilities.

00:08:05:12 - 00:08:28:09
Okay. And so then each of the retailers has their own policies around what qualifies for a return. What how do you grade it? You know, all those kinds of things. It does. So many of those are known to you, the consumer. You have to. But really as a consumer, your only obligation normally is to return it within a prescribed time period.

00:08:28:11 - 00:08:50:18
But you may have taken the tags off or not, put it or not taken the tags off. So, we get package, products. It's still in the original packaging bag. Very nice. We get packages. There are a little bit of a home construction project. You wouldn't. You know, it's not uncommon for us to get, a shopping bag, you know, and not just like a nice shopping bag.

00:08:50:18 - 00:09:13:12
Like a grocery store or plastic shopping bag that has tape all over it and an item inside it. And we figure out how to get that, little arts and crafts project that the consumer did back into, recyclable condition. And the next buyer would never know. You're talking about a return from Drew. You probably. Probably. Yeah, I don't know, the Drew, like, has enough tape to do that.

00:09:13:12 - 00:09:33:04
That's right. But yeah, we get them of all kinds. And, the beauty of the software is we're able to, regardless of kind of how it arrives to us, use the software to process that. And so that when it arrives to the next customer, they can't tell that Drew just reused his grocery bag to make the return.

00:09:33:06 - 00:10:05:00
Okay, so you're talking multiple retailers stuff coming in and multiple different conditions. Drew, when you when you, you know, most of your business is around forward logistics, right? So can you do a compare contrast between a forward DC or distribution center versus what an Inmar or one of our return centers with. Yeah, I think the first and foremost, when it's a forward fulfillment center, you're typically looking let's just take a 500,000 square foot warehouse, right?

00:10:05:02 - 00:10:24:18
490,000 of that square foot of that warehouse is going to look beautiful, really nice and orderly. Pallets in the right spot. The dock looks nice and clean. And then as you walk around, there'll be a corner. There will be that 10,000 square foot corner. And that's where the returns are. No one wants to look at them. It's not a pretty space.

00:10:24:20 - 00:11:00:07
But it's almost a necessary evil inside that building, which looks very different. And so, that's kind of the typical way you would look at it. And I think what we have found obviously, with, with DHL and especially talking about, you know, eCommerce returns and the like is how do you actually integrate your forward business with your reverse business, because there's an advantage there, especially in a marketplace where inventory turns are, needed for seasonality differences or, new SKU releases, how do you take returns that are coming into that building and quickly get them back into saleable condition?

00:11:00:07 - 00:11:17:18
In many cases, what we're trying to drive with a lot of our customers is, is really about value recovery. And the highest value you're going to get is if you can sell something as new. And so what we really try to do is integrate those two processes together. So, when they do come into the facility, we can quickly, get to that point where we can get that back in the stock.

00:11:17:18 - 00:11:46:07
So, then it's available from our point of sale. So, quite a bit different. Right, right. And maybe I'll let you, Thomas, describe, describe a typical a typical return center. Well it's beautiful house just in its own way. Right, right. It's the eye of the beholder. So, we find beauty in the chaos a little bit, which is, a requirement for us running returns only facilities, or at least the returns on facilities today.

00:11:46:09 - 00:12:08:07
It is not only an orderly because we don't know, when the product is coming back in what condition? The product is coming back. We don't know. There's not. Nice case counts and SKUs per case and things like that. And returns, you open a container and there are returns in it, and then you process it and do your best.

00:12:08:09 - 00:12:31:10
Group things and put them away and drive as many downstream efficiencies as we can. But we just never know. Like, if I have a case that contains 24 of this pullover ordinarily it's got to be 24 and this size and this color in this cut. I don't know when my first unit's going to arrive much less my 24th unit is going to arrive.

00:12:31:10 - 00:12:56:06
So, we have to work with our retail customers and figure out different thresholds and things which make shipping a little bit more challenging. And storage certainly a little bit more challenging. But it is not neat and orderly. And cubes and squares, it is set up in order to take the chaos and put as much control around it as we possibly can and efficiency as we possibly can.

00:12:56:07 - 00:13:25:17
But at the end, really like our primary objective is whatever the maximum value recovery is. So, it may not always be putting that item back into first quality stock. You know, as I've described, these things come in in different conditions and packaging and everything else. And for lower value merchandise or maybe things that are close to being out of season, like Drew mentioned, it might be faster and better and derive more value for our retailers.

00:13:25:19 - 00:13:48:09
If we just immediately take that product and put it into the secondary market and go try to sell it for $0.35 or $0.45 on the dollar, as opposed to putting into it $0.25 or $0.35 to get it back to Drew or somebody else to do the forward fulfillment. And I think like Thomas, this point is that's what makes this industry such a hard one because of the unpredictability that comes with it.

00:13:48:15 - 00:14:02:20
Whatever's going to show up in your door, you open up the trailer and all of a sudden you've got pallets of product, and now we got to figure out how we're going to deal with it. It's all coming, like you said, in different shapes, forms and factors. And I think whereas an outbound right. It's pretty, you know, standard.

00:14:02:20 - 00:14:22:13
Right. Standard Q, process, working itself out. But when it comes back in, you don't know what you're going to get. And I think that's part of the challenge we see in the industry is when you do look at the full end to end process, there's so many steps along the way that can get disrupted. And what can we do to help make that more streamlined, like a forward fulfillment?

00:14:22:13 - 00:14:42:07
But how can you apply that principle back? And I think that's really where the challenge in the industry is right now is to make that better. So, I get the, the value lever number one, probably two and three is, recovery.

00:14:42:09 - 00:15:03:18
From the return product. With sustainability becoming a bigger trend. I mean, I wonder just over your 11 years in the industry, Thomas, how much you're hearing from customers around the importance of keeping stuff out of landfills? Vis-a-vis the value recovery, you know, is it is it as important? Is it less important? Has it changed?

00:15:03:20 - 00:15:27:05
Oh, it's certainly changed. And it's becoming more and more important, I think, for nearly all of our customers, if not all of our customers. The methods for doing that have also changed, really. It used to just be, one outlet for keeping product out of the landfill. It was either the landfill or it was kind of secondary market or donation.

00:15:27:07 - 00:15:57:20
Now, we're seeing recycling partners coming to life and trying to get, secondary uses out of materials that may not have been, you know, all different manners of recycling products to get it into whatever form that is going to be in its next life, and being able to partner with those providers. Those recycling providers and others that are doing creative things to keep product out of the landfill is becoming more and more important for all of our customers, for sure.

00:15:57:22 - 00:16:27:15
The other thing that's really changed a lot when you think about sustainability of this industry is, 10, 11 years ago when I started in returns, we barely had any direct to consumer returns coming back. So, almost all of the returns were consolidated at the retail store. So, you bought something at a retail store. You went back into the store to return it and then it came back to us or one of our competitors in a consolidated shipment.

00:16:27:15 - 00:16:52:07
At least. Today you have those arts and crafts projects that I described which create a lot of waste themselves. And then it's individual parcels coming back, you know, through the supply chain back to us, way less efficient than the previous model, where all those things were consolidated at a retail location. So, those are kind of the two ends of the returns game.

00:16:52:07 - 00:17:13:03
As I think about it. You have the way back end of it, keeping it out of the landfill. But there are also efficiency and sustainability things that we can do. Through different capabilities upstream when the return gets initiated itself and how we get that back into the returns processing facility. So, those are really the two areas that we're being asked to focus.

00:17:13:03 - 00:17:43:17
Will, is on, the ultimate disposition side. But then also on the initiation side, how do we get product more efficiently back from the consumers into the returns processing. Either of you, I mean, which what are some different ways that are being tested? On that front. Yeah, I think there's a couple things. And I might add to that, one of the things that we're seeing is the data element that's kind of flowing through now on the reverse side.

00:17:43:17 - 00:18:01:08
And what information can help these retailers and brands better understand why returns are happening in the first place? Right. So, with the assumption, yes, we get something and we got to do the best buy, you know, from a sustainability lands for value recovery. But what can you actually do on the front end to actually influence the reduction returns.

00:18:01:08 - 00:18:18:15
Right. So, the more we know of why. Was it just the wrong size? Was the size guide wrong? Were the colors was wrong? What aspects might have been the reason that something was returned in the first place? So, the more that we know and we're able to help brands understand that, will help drive a reduction in returns.

00:18:18:17 - 00:18:38:23
I think, though, on the disposition side to where Thomas is talking about what we're seeing is, is really trying to get more flexible on your disposition options. I think there's a lot of different ways that you can try to get a second life out of a good. You know, obviously the core piece is trying to get it back into stock if you can, but if that's not the case, what can you do to get that second life?

00:18:38:23 - 00:18:59:17
So, we're seeing new models and what we call kind of brand led re-commerce, which is looking at it from maybe a single SKU offering almost used goods, to, to the consumer, which, you know, gives access to the brand at a discount, which can acquire new customers. So, there's a bit of a win there for the brand and the retailer, because not only are they getting access new customers, but they're selling their goods at a higher value.

00:18:59:20 - 00:19:32:06
As kind of Thomas talked about to you know, bulk liquidation has been in service for quite some time. How do you find the right buying pool and those to maximize recovery and get rid of larger quantities that you might not otherwise be able to do it at the brand level, like we talked about? But there's also other opportunities that we see with customers, employee stores has been a really key outlet for folks that where they might not see those other two channels as a primary, but with their employees, there's an opportunity to be able to sell it to them at a discount, through a lot of those product returns,

00:19:32:08 - 00:19:51:11
along with donation being another key area. So, there's a lot of different avenues there. And I think where the industry is starting to go is what's that flexibility to choose the right disposition channel, to not only maximize it, but from a sustainability lens, keep that out of the landfill. Because now we've got optionality.

00:20:20:21 - 00:20:55:04
I mean, so tons of complexity is what I'm hearing, which is, which is really interesting and a great supply chain challenge. That I think is what got us to the M&A, chapter here. And I this isn't an episode on M&A, but I did want to ask about from a organizational fit, you know, maybe Drew you starting as you think about the culture and kind of how we operate and on all of that.

00:20:55:04 - 00:21:19:04
And then when you evaluate targets and specifically Inmar, how do you think about, that evaluation and then, you know, put it back to you, Thomas, on when the discussion started, what were you sort of looking for? What how was your team reacting? How did that dating go. Yeah, yeah. I think the use of dating is probably the most appropriate term here.

00:21:19:04 - 00:21:40:15
I think, if I Kind of rewind, it was probably about 4 years ago. We had a mutual customer that was with Inmar and with DHL that introduced us to each other. So, I think about that first introduction, right. And saying like, oh yeah, you're pretty. But you know, let's figure that out. And so that was kind of the introduction to Inmar.

00:21:40:15 - 00:22:06:03
And I would say, you know, kind of fast forwarding a bit is when we started to get more into the dating phase where I'll let Thomas more talk more about those, those engagements. But in the time of when we met and the time we started discussions on M&A was a kind of a 2 year period of, I think, where us as DHL was just trying to figure out what do we want to do right in this space, and what is it that we think we can do better in there.

00:22:06:03 - 00:22:28:18
And I think that's where we had a lot of opportunity to say, okay, we've traditionally been in this processing space, right? Product was coming back into our distribution centers. We were doing some sort of activity of inspecting products, creating products and helping kind of facilitate where it goes. That's kind of where we were focused. And there's so much more like we've been talking about that's in the return space.

00:22:28:18 - 00:22:46:00
And so when we started to evaluate, well, what is it that we want to do, we recognize, like there's some capability gaps that we just don't have today. And there's also some capabilities that we think are complement what we're doing today. So, how do we want to go approaching that. And that's when we started to explore the mergers and acquisitions piece.

00:22:46:02 - 00:23:05:11
Okay. What's out there that we think if we brought it into the DHL family that we think that it would complement, but also something that we can grow and solve like an industry problem. So, I think that's really what was important to us as we kind of went out there and figure it out. And that's when kind of the dating started to pick up a little bit, maybe Thomas and kind of kick it over to you.

00:23:05:13 - 00:23:32:05
Sure. So, you have to be, willing to be in the market, right? So, we had checked that box because we had made a determination that in order for us to continue to grow and build the company that we wanted to, with the Inmar Supply Chain Solutions Group that we knew we needed to find people who would bring other capabilities.

00:23:32:07 - 00:23:59:13
You know, I mentioned that we're dealing with a bit of chaos normally in returns, and it is a growing market. We knew we needed operational excellence. And the thing is that DHL has a reputation that is true of being able to bring into our facilities and operations. I was also personally looking for somewhere where our associates could continue their career in supply chain and logistics.

00:23:59:15 - 00:24:20:13
You know, we were part of an organization that wasn't entirely focused on supply chain. It was a part of the business. But it wasn't the only thing in the business. But I have a lot of people on my team whose entire career has been in supply chain logistics, and some of them entirely in returns. So, I was looking for, two primary things.

00:24:20:13 - 00:24:54:06
One, the great, expertise and capabilities that DHL would bring, which would then serve our customers and enable us to grow the business. But two a great landing spot for our associates. We had almost 800 associates who were impacted by this acquisition. On day one, who were all very, very excited now, after the dust settles and they learn what in the world is going on around them to have this unbelievable opportunity with the leader in the world in this space.

00:24:54:08 - 00:25:15:23
That's great. That's great. So, we're about 3 months in, correct? Yeah. How are how are we thinking about or how are you thinking about taking this to market? Where are we in, in that process? As part of sort of the broader integration overall? Yeah, it's a we have a couple different areas of opportunity. I think.

00:25:15:23 - 00:25:40:15
One is we have a lot of joint customers, and it was in areas that we didn't necessarily compete in. It just happens to be that, you know, Thomas has been helping provide, you know, remarketing services, recall services, supply chain analytics. We're on the other side of it doing forward distribution. And so I think one of the opportunities we have today is to just make sure that the two teams kind of come together and we're providing what we call a one DHL experience.

00:25:40:15 - 00:26:01:04
And so to your point, we're three months in, we've already started those conversations, and it's going well with our teams and figuring out the best way to approach a customer and do that. I think kind of the second piece is, is how do we ensure that that customer experience becomes more seamless? Right. We're still two different companies kind of coming at it, but we need to start integrating those processes.

00:26:01:04 - 00:26:18:01
So, just think about almost some of the basics of account management between cubes and how we show up and how we talk about the performance at the business. We need to start bringing that together, which is going to be a big thing. And I'm really concerned with making sure that our current customers are being serviced effectively with that combined entity.

00:26:18:03 - 00:26:36:06
When you flip that to the other side of the growth side, right, new customers and making sure that we're offering capabilities, it's going to be really important for us to make sure that we're bringing the full portfolio now of capabilities and processes that we can actually provide to a customer. Now that we've got remarketing all together, the recalled business, the processing.

00:26:36:10 - 00:26:51:16
And then when I say processing, we have multiple options now between dedicated facilities, co-located, and now we have an entire returns network. So, how do we make sure that we take all that solutions, that package it up in a way that we can deliver to a new customer that we know is going to be the right solution for them.

00:26:51:16 - 00:27:23:09
And so that work is really what we're focused in on right now, is how do we make sure that all comes together. And so we're going to market in an effective way. Good, good. And Thomas, how is your organization, now our organization feeling about things? I think there feeling overwhelmed in a positive way. Yeah. I think look, you know, we were the leader in North America in returns, but by scale, much, much, much smaller.

00:27:23:11 - 00:27:46:20
So, when I say overwhelmed in a positive way, it's everything from, you know, when I pick up the phone, I have potentially gone from one person who can help me to fifteen people on a team who can help me solve whatever that challenge is. The other thing is, just the great way that DHL treats its associates has been overwhelming in a positive way.

00:27:46:22 - 00:28:17:04
I'm very proud, that today I sit here 90 days in, many, companies cannot tell the story that get acquired. We have over 99% of our corporate salaried associates who are impacted by this acquisition are employed by DHL today, meaning we've had less than one handful of associates attrit in the first 90 days of an acquisition, which is, I think, incredibly rare.

00:28:17:06 - 00:28:42:09
And just speaks to, the great associated experience that DHL has created not just for our team, but for all of the DHL teams. Well that's great. So, maybe last question. The are your customers customer, the consumer, like paint a picture for in in an ideal world of sort of where are you driving towards. What's that experience

00:28:42:09 - 00:29:06:23
look like in the future. And that can be whatever timescale you think is needed to kind of sort through all of this. But what's sort of the ideal state I get to have? You can start with that one. Yeah. And still, when you think about it all, I do, yeah. Steal a little bit from Drew, I think what our customers' customers won't see, but is real is the data.

00:29:06:23 - 00:29:28:17
And the way that that is going to impact the future of the returns experience, you know, companies are getting smarter and smarter. We're getting more and more data from everything around us in our lives. And so that'll be the starting point for my answer, Will. Part of what I'm going to create. We're going to create for the consumer.

00:29:28:19 - 00:29:50:16
They won't have really any idea how much what they did impacted that experience. Right? So, like if I initiate a return today, but I'm a returner who may take 30 days to actually go and drop that return off or what. That's 30 days that, that product was out. I was counting on that to be able to resell it to the next consumer right.

00:29:50:16 - 00:30:20:21
So, I think about a future where, you probably have some level of personalization in the returns experience on a consumer by consumer basis. So, Drew and his, you know, arts and crafts projects are not highly desirable. Maybe he's paying a penalty in the future. Maybe he's one who's continuing to pay the ever, increasingly prevalent returns initiation fees and penalties, all the way down to Will,

00:30:20:21 - 00:30:49:06
I'm sure you're a great returner. I am. Maybe you have free returns and you can drop them off anywhere you can. Maybe you can bring them into the office, and we can sweep the office and consolidate those through, a returns processing facility somewhere nearby. I don't have enough time with that prompt. To give the, I know, I know, those are a couple of the flavors that I think the direction we're going in is definitely something, that continues

00:30:49:06 - 00:31:10:12
the focus on efficiency continues to leverage the data. But I think we're going into a more personalized world where consumers themselves are going to have a lot of power in the returns experiences that they that they have. Good and to put you at ease, we're going to come back to this subject many times on the podcast. I've been chomping at the bit. I'm one behind Drew.

00:31:10:12 - 00:31:34:00
I've got to catch up. Now we now we've got something really good to talk about. Drew, how about you? What's your what's your world look like. Well, there's a difference between ideal world and maybe reality. You know, maybe on the reality side is when you do look at the consumer and the expectations they have, especially when you look at the data of what they expect from our returns experiences, they don't want it to be hard.

00:31:34:02 - 00:32:06:11
Like that still has not gone away. And quite frankly, they don't want to pay for it either. Right? So, I think you kind of have a little bit of a battle right now between the brands and retailers, assuming all of this cost while trying to balance out their, you know, consumers expectation. I think Thomas is on the right side of that is where we're starting to see a lot of our customers really play around a bit with returns policies and the way in which they're interacting with customers, maybe it's joining their rewards program that then allows them to have free returns.

00:32:06:11 - 00:32:24:23
If you're not in that program, you have to pay. So, I think we're going to see a lot more experimenting on seeing what that does from a customer loyalty perspective, by putting a little bit of friction in there. And I think that's going to, you know, spur a lot of differences here. And I think when we flip that to the ideal world, it would be, hey, consumer.

00:32:25:01 - 00:32:40:00
They grab the return, they bundle up real nicely. They tell you exactly why they're returning it, put the label exactly where you're at, drop it off and do everything right. Maybe drop it off at the store location because that's a cheaper way for it to get back. But I just don't think that's the reality of where it's going to go.

00:32:40:00 - 00:33:05:20
So, I think the best way for right now for brands is to just start playing around a little bit to see what happens with customer loyalty, and the help that drive their decisions on what they want to do. Or they don't return it at all, which I don't think is I don't think I'm yeah, I was I was actually going to say like, I don't think it's a reality, but it is like people don't believe this often when I say it like, yeah, we do try to help brands reduce their returns.

00:33:05:22 - 00:33:23:10
We can provide enough value added services and do things. And the reality, like you said, the difference between reality and, you know, maybe what we hope it to be are far enough apart. I think that returns are always going to be around, but we're definitely still going to focus on trying to reduce the returns as well.

00:33:23:10 - 00:33:44:06
Yeah. Well, great exciting stuff. I know DHL is very happy, that we, we got this deal done and really happy to have us working together on, what is a really big industry problem? And a and a fun one to work, to solve. So, like I said, we'll be back, to talk more.

00:33:44:06 - 00:33:57:12
Good luck with the integration. Good luck with, with everything over the next year. And, look forward to the next report. Yeah. Appreciate it. All right. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Good to see you. Thanks.

00:33:58:05 - 00:34:14:21
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