Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries - I Came Back Yesterday From Moscow

Dr. Manfred F. R. Kets de Vries is the Distinguished Clinical Professor of Leadership Development and Organisational Change and the Raoul de Vitry d’Avaucourt Chaired Professor of Leadership Development, Emeritus, at INSEAD. He brings a different view to the much-studied subjects of leadership and individual and organizational change. Bringing to bear his knowledge and experience of economics (EconDrs, University of Amsterdam), management (ITP, MBA, and DBA, Harvard Business School), and psychoanalysis (Canadian Psychoanalytic Society and the International Psychoanalytic Association), he scrutinizes the interface between international management, psychoanalysis, psychotherapy, and dynamic psychiatry. His specific areas of interest are leadership, career dynamics, executive stress, entrepreneurship, family business, succession planning, cross-cultural management, team building, coaching, and corporate transformation and change. Manfred F. R. Kets de Vries directs The Challenge of Leadership Executive Education program.

He has received the INSEAD Distinguished Teacher Award five times. He has held professorships at McGill University, the Ecole des Hautes Etudes Commerciales, Montreal, and the Harvard Business School and has lectured at management institutions worldwide. 

He is the author, co-author, or editor of more than 50 books and has published over 400 papers as articles or chapters in books. His books and articles are translated into thirty-one languages. He is a member of seventeen editorial boards, and he’s a Fellow of the Academy of Management. 

Financial Times, Le Capital, Wirtschaftswoche, and The Economist rated Manfred Kets de Vries as one of the world’s top fifty leading management thinkers and one of the most influential contributors to human resource management. In 2008, he received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the International Leadership Association (the Leadership Legacy Project), being viewed as one of the world’s six founding professionals in developing leadership as a field and discipline.

A Few Quotes From This Episode

• “I try to train reflective leaders. People who have some self-knowledge, some self-awareness...have some ability to deal with the complexity of what’s going on.”
• (Speaking in Russia on 2.28.22). I made three comments when I ended my class because people were becoming panicky.
  • Ideology overrules rationality.
  • Paranoia is the disease of kings.
  • He who rides a tiger cannot dismount.

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

• The Kets de Vries Institute
• The Starfish Story
  
  

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

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Transcript

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 75% accurate 

Scott Allen  0:00  
Okay, good afternoon. Good morning. Good evening wherever you are in the world. Thank you so much for tuning in. Today. I have Dr. Manfred today. And he is the distinguished Clinical Professor of leadership development and organizational change. And a chaired professor of leadership development emeritus at INSEAD. He brings a different view to the much studied subjects of leadership and the dynamics of individual and organizational change, bringing to bear his knowledge and experience of economics from the University of Amsterdam, management from Harvard Business School, psychoanalysis from the Canadian psychoanalytic society and the International Psychoanalytic Association. He scrutinizes the interface between International Management psychoanalysis, psychotherapy, and dynamic psychiatry. His specific areas of interest are leadership, career dynamics, Executive Stress, entrepreneurship, family business succession planning, cross cultural management, team building coaching, in the dynamics of corporate transformation and change. He directs the challenge of leadership executive education program as well. The Financial Times has featured his work The Economist, and he has been rated one of the world's top 50 leading management thinkers, as well as one of the most influential contributors to human resource management. In 2008, he received a lifetime achievement award from the International Leadership Association. And you know what he has written or co authored 49 books, it's probably 50 At this point, city 5400 papers, articles or chapters in books. He has received so many honors from so many different organizations, and he is an outdoorsman. So I just finished a conversation I was saying, Before we started record, in my conversation with Henry Mintzberg, I discovered that he is an outdoorsman, sir, before we begin our formal conversation, what are some of your favorite places in the world to experience the outdoors?

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  2:00  
Well, there's some extremes I've been, I mean, it's the pygmies in Central Africa. And it's quite interesting to see how they can read the forest. What kind of people they are, I was actually hooked on an article about that about team dynamics, they, I felt they were the most liberated group because both women and men hunt they do everything together and have certain special habits of happy people to sing all the time. And then you have the other extreme going to the mountains of the premiere, which is a different difficult experience for me to suddenly be transported by helicopter 5000 meters and some of the body starts to do funny things for a different lenses, they open fairy faith quartz and I was there the first time minus 20 plus the windchill factor was quite interesting and your body starts to behave differently. And then you have places like the Altai Mountains which are also gonna alternate is also in costume. The higher up the lower one is funny, it reminded me of Colorado, similar similar impression this with the horses etc. And even in France, where I live, I was recently the Kmart, which is a big swampy area, or you go to another really big swamp, which is in Brazil, the Pantanal which I like because they can see something because I've been many real in these areas. And I was actually a few years ago before the pandemic I was in the there was a man called our knee a senior, and you aren't he was an Explorer was probably one of my fantasies about him. And he wrote an interesting book called DeSouza law, which is about the explorer in the region, which is close to North Korea and China. To forest comes together the boreal forest and the tropical forest and there's where the Siberian tiger lives, and I must my craziness, I waited 18 hours to see a tiger and 18 hours is too long. I mean, I can sit eight hours, 10 hours 12 hours, but the only thing I saw was two pigeons. Two well two pigeons go well pigeons that was quite disappointing. Although every night I was living with a trapper. There was an enormous barking because a trapper had caged his dogs and he loses every and the favorite food of Siberian tigers guess what his dogs every night there was a it was a obviously a tiger in the neighborhood and talks to bark like crazy. But he couldn't get at the dogs but he the trapper told me every year he loses some dogs due to Tiger swaps. I plan to go back there but with the strange things happening. I just was telling you I came back yesterday from Moscow. I tried to get back to Moscow, but that was not a direct flight because my all my flights are canceled one after the other. And finally in desperation, I tried to go maybe it was Flight to Brussels. I live in Paris. So I said, Brussels take the train today the studies and go back to Paris. But halfway over Stockholm, which happens to be the area where my wife comes from Happy, happy hour. No epi our, the captain said, Say quietly that we have turned because we are not allowed to enter the airspace. And so back to Moscow. And so I finally made its flying immediately to Istanbul to get to another airline, because basically, Aeroflot is not no longer instable. But it was kind of interesting I, I had to I was promised to give a talk is a program they're actually at the Higher School of Economics, which elite university. And I Vaughn mentioned to my first analyst, the number I've not told them, told me that she has managed supervision, I was also in supervision user at the time, who was Russian, I was interested in Russia at the time because of actually many of the laws in literature. And so trying to meet each other so I had no interest in instead what you want to do. You want to be a psychoanalyst, and see if your patients are you want to change the world, there was years ago. Wow. And so he, of course, he was a fresh analyst, so you don't. So he was quiet, but then he thought about it. And he decided to set up a program called secondary psychology and management consulting, which is extremely successful, I guess the Russians are desperate after communism, to have a way of free thinking. And he's very worried at the moment, by the way, I also had breakfast with him about psychoanalysis forbidden during the Soviet Union time, like Surbiton in Nazi Germany. And, and so, but as I was there, I gave a lecture, and it's very successful.

It's an SVM vaccine successful program. So there's a need for those kinds of things. But I was there also to give another reaction that is quite tragic. What's happening. I don't want to talk to psychoanalyze Putin. But you can call it the Versailles complex, which is maybe a new term, you know, you remember the Versailles Treaty at the time or between the First World War, and the Germans got a rough deal. And I must say, the Americans were so smart in the Second World War, not to have the first deal, but every martial General Marshall was a very visionary man. And that has been partially the problem I seek when you look at the situation that what Russia needed after it fell apart is not timed. That finally communism fell apart, but the Marshall Plan.

But what happens, of course, is you have this I wrote a book years ago called Shaka Zulu about despotism. And I was interested in Shaka Zulu, Zulu king who united Southern Africa. And it's a special way of looking at the world, Putin, of course, and as mentioned there, the paranoia is a disease of kings. And of course, what happens and I've written quite a bit on narcissism. When you're, you know, the, you have to be somewhat narcissistic to want a leadership job. But then in the job, you get all the perks of power. And, you know, there wasn't an American statesman Stevenson, who said, flatly is alright, as long as you don't inhale, but fade quickly, you start to inhale quite quite a bit. And you could see that he saw this Trump. Now this kind of every morning, everybody has had praise Hail to the Chief how great he is, because he's so insecure. And the same thing. I mean, I mean, of course, put into a different kettle of fish, you know, that again, follows the cuckoo stallion. He probably don't know that most interesting thing about being the cook of style and how you have to be all the time. Think about poisoning and things like that. And that of course, he wanted to be a spy for young give us a cutting young man that he knocked on the door of the KGB and said, I want to be a spy and they laughed and they admire the property, this young man, but can do something more. So he became a lawyer, I guess. But what I'm trying to say is that if you eventually you surround yourself with people who only tell you what you want to hear, yes. The way behaved at that security meeting. Nobody but the reality is, the Russians learned that they knew about the famous knock on the door at four o'clock in the morning. That was not a milkman, that somebody else so they become very quickly careful about how what you can say what you can say. But I could see I mean, I'm a number of WhatsApp and I have so many Russian students over the years, some of them in quite senior positions and they are not happy campus. I can tell you that it's not happy campus, particularly since I think the 2 million Ukrainians are so in Russia. So there's so many intermarriages and things like that. And this situation is very tragic. I wish it could have been different. But I wrote, I wrote in my one of my, the pandemic has been good to me. In many ways, they say to say that, but I couldn't travel. And I realized after 28 hours of travel to come for normally takes three and a half hours to come from here to turn from Moscow to here that I had a lot, a lot of time on my hands. So I wrote, actually eight, eight books. Writing has been my antidepressant, during the pandemic, of course, nice to see people face to face, as opposed to, you know, this oldest two dimensionality. But I gave me some time to think about various things. And I find that being a teacher of leadership, I tried to make my Moses contribution, but I have they asked me actually in industry, my students there, have you ever dealt with political leaders? I mean, very rarely, would probably be such a not such a bad idea to make them a little bit more self reflective, more self understanding and realizing that in the case of Putin, you can see who house internal theater becomes acted out on a massive scale and has such a terrible impact. Like you see so many levers. I mean, look at the the WhatsApp conversations going on. I'm receiving now from my students. I mean, think about the Russian leadership brand. Think about being a Russian was like being a German, not just after the war, anytime they could scream at you and say, you know, dirty German with a few dumbest things like that. And now we have this kind of thing happening. And I made three comments when I ended my class because people were becoming panicking. One was that ideology overrules rationality. And then I said, Better noise disease of kings. And he writes, a tiger cannot dismount. And then you'll see what he did in Gosling. And how we flatten that particular city cities, there are more that's already already bombs are already hitting major cities, more Atrocitus can be predicted for what I mean.

To be a demagogue, you have a few things to do. And we can be taking a macro or social work perspective, in the first place, you need enemies, and so it is much nicer and we are you know, we like enemies in a way you know, we are we have a think about our personality. Our personality inside the personalities. First place we go is a big elephant. And the first elephant is egocentricity when I when people tell stories. I mean, I use a lot of ask people to tell their story. And of course, you're related to yourself. So they have the same problem. It's the same, that's that kind of thing. The other part of the elephant is the paranoia. Because when you're in Paleolithic times, in the bushes, there could be something pinkish. It could be beautiful, vile stories, but it could be the tongue of a saber toothed Tiger. So you have to be somewhat paranoid to remember and the goals book, maybe only the Paranoid Survive you're so the third part of the elephant, of course has to do for debt for Tet. Ever did for death, the lex talionis, which is other stupid, the golden wouldn't be nice about the Lexa yawn. And then you have also the elephant doesn't like change. There is putting the greatest geopolitical catalyst off and his resentment is building up. And he feels you know, he has the largest country in the world and people and people say GMP, GMP for small country only has nukes. That's the only difference you have in a big country. But when you go to the Siberia, many years, it looks like the 19th century Tall Story Mata roads and the people they have, of course, the glitter you have in Moscow. So different story. So Spitefulness. And the reason builds up. And of course, as a good leader, like Trump also was in that respect. You read what the Germans call the zeitgeist. Now the spirit of the time. So the historical moment so you articulate the resentment in Trump articulated resentment of the non educated white person who felt threatened. And so there he was unsettling so you're not supposed to be upset, but they liked it. So he, you know, leaders who rise up and like Hitler. Now he knew the OSI soap opera, you know, the kind of people how the Germans felt that they were being exploited being not being and so now we have entered this Sam because it could be the other thing could be so differently. It could be either so much hope, actually, then I would have been so many times in Russia after Perestroika. And so hope for the country, I've seen all these changes and also was very chaotic. And of course, what he did was he gives them certain pride, there is, as a foodie, you have now star restaurants in Moscow. I mean, there's never this further, just this year started as a fantastic custom, you have to say how to eat the food before, not very attractive. Moscow is vague, literally, where the houses are painted. Now, it looks all very nice, the same as in Petersburg. But now this minute, and of course, the next thing is, if you're a good dictator, you could control the media and you and you make people anxious, or you're nice to say, you know, we have the news. You know, making people anxious is one characteristic of dictatorship. And, and the rule of law is very flexible. So as you're if you're a businessman, that's one of the sad seeing, I feel. When you look at, you know, I'm not the youngest anymore. When you think about Japan, after the war. I remember when, when a statement was made in Japan, he said, My God that is going to fall apart any moment, whatever they made, now to create high quality products. Now we go to Russia, with all the brains they have, well, they have gospel, natural resources, fine, but you know, is that it somehow, some steel and some book, some Alumina, aluminum, but where is the, you know, are the brand names and the best and the brightest event in Silicon Valley? It's, you know, you haven't, you know, people or they keep their mouth shut, and say, Okay, I can have a good life that I just keep my mouth shut, don't talk and ignore it. Or you were both. So the ones inside, you know, they are quiet and lift somewhat of an in authenticity. Show the day is like a little bit not yet as bad. In the stylistic time. People are so scared that you know, this knock two o'clock in the morning, and having a Mr style in everyday looking at the list of people who are going to be eliminated.

Scott Allen  17:07  
You have personal family history, growing up in Holland. And there's there's a very, very real lived experience with that way of being that that environment, that context. Here we are, whether it's in the United States, some of the authoritarianism, as you mentioned, are tendencies towards what is it about the human condition that we don't seem to learn? I can tell you,

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  17:37  
when you look at the United States, I mean, not just United States, the United States is very represented is an H of anxiety. And when you look at the number of people who take anti anxiety pills, often those and they have this work to Europeans and other cultures. It's very strange, the gun culture. Now I am an AI mountain, I could do hunting, and I go pheasant hunting. But do you need a submachine gun? Or whatever for that? No. And if you have a gun, maybe you should have your mental health checkup, being a little bit careful about that. I find this and as you know, and then you get like the tobacco periods where smoking is good for your house, having more guns will protect you. It's not true. Most people get shot by family members, or you don't need pistols. You know, we live in Asia anxiety, no war, no wonder you have global warming, which is a big thing and has been a news all the time. Because I mean, and the younger generation is very aware if you have ever had before that you think about Dr. Strangelove, you know, maybe you've seen the movie cellars, you know, the nuclear holocaust. And now you have put in again saying we have nukes. Of course I get intrigued by when you see musk and Richard Branson. The manner of Amazon shooting rockets in the air, I mean, make a good bet. But it gives them better working environment for their people. But there's another story. They have enormous income inequality, which is an invitation to, to riots to chaos, and the terrorism is still there. You know, every time there's somewhere a bomb that has been there all the time, but not to that extent that being also in the 19th century or whatever, they have this migration. I mean, look at you and Trump and his wall here we could get now new intellectual cranes. Actually, I can tell you, I remember doing my, my my dissertation writing at the Harvard Business School, and they've gotten enterpreneurship they factor if you want more entrepreneurs have award because people are displaced. They have no they're not part of the social structure. And so they start new things because they don't fit where it's terrible thing to say so but I mean immigrants are usually very entrepreneurial. Then you have of course the Coronavirus and then make and then we have seen around and it's it was Warren Buffett who said it so clearly when the tide goes out. You see a swimming naked hands menu The leaders we have I mean, look at Brazil, and who's trying to imitate Trump about make politicizing having an injection. I mean, you get measles injections, you're going to go to Africa, yellow fever division get in. And all this anti Vax business Real men don't inject themselves. They protect their body they want freedom you want freedom to dive Duncan drunkenly you want there was a person now just on the Autobahn somewhere we drove for and 90 kilometres an hour, train them to speed you know, you had most of that was a Bugatti. It's crazy. And now we have more to add to the whole community. We had voices all the time. But this is the first major vote in Europe, you get a little bit pessimistic about the course people he guess when people get anxious at guess. And then they guess when looking for a strong man. By the way, women make better leaders, they have less narcissistic, looking for strong men, and you have always some people who will rise to the occasion, and say, you know, I'm the end and the snake oil salesman, I'm going to help you. I have I promise you anything. Of course, it's only a look also here. And I mean, coming back to the leaders, Boris Johnson, I mean, influenced by Churchill or even Autobiography of Churchill, but what you're really looking at his Brexit, which is the most stupid thing that could have happened for the younger generation, shooting yourself in your foot? I mean, going back to it stupid. I mean, I have two children in London. I mean, to go to England novel, the rules of regulation. I mean, we are going to, you're going to be entrepreneurial. There are more rules and regulation that before is self inflicted. Anybody who can think but of course I said again, ideology of rules, nationality, I mean, the fantasy of greater dunya was the ways to get it, by the way, was interesting. Listening to the the person and woman from the Duma was an important person apparently. And she talks about this boom that was in that she was quoting Spangler that that winter in this urban land was the fall of the the Western world. You know, of course, she had in mind, Europe is already fallen anyhow. But the other ones she had in mind was America and China will take over. And so the spheres also receive will be the little brother of China as a psychoanalyst talking about difference in social political, but that's important, the need of having enemies and the need, I mean, the regression when you when you saw the storm splitting it's best versus don't. The people are with me, peoples divide cowboy hat and the blacktop we have is the most primitive defense mechanism, as opposed to having a sense of humor. And you know, intellectualized another defenseman, but really having more sophisticated form. So you see how quickly vs hurt and the most weakness? What's the antidote? Now? I mean, the I was on the BBC program. It was a panel discussion about I wrote an article about the super rich, and so they asked me to make a comment. And then he said things, I think, and he cut it out, by the way, you know, you know, programs to cut things out. They asked a question about you, or you can cut out, all sing out. But I asked the question, if you would have $10 billion, what would you do with it? Which is a good question. Music is certainly beyond my imagination. But I said educate women, because women are the culture carriers. And they are the moments. I mean, you see so many countries where women are kept dumb, you know, which is you know, Afghanistan being an extreme example. And so educate women because if you have educated people, you have a higher chance, a higher turns, that they that's what I do. I try to trade reflective leaders, people who have some self knowledge, some self awareness, have no knee jerk reaction, have some ability to deal with the complexity of what's going on. There was an assistant they put in really think fairy is normally quite a plan, ICU dhoka. But not a chess player. But he thinks a little bit further. But does he still have good advice? I don't want a dumb leader. If the dumb leader is that smart to say I'm dumb, and I listen to my advices but that's not that's I wonder it's the echo chamber. But think about the systemic implication for what he's doing. I mean, what he had in mind of course, in the case of of Ukraine was a blitzkrieg in for too long they like happened in the Caribbean, and then re there we have another territory, but it's the Ukraine's have a long history actually, of partisanship, and there's going to be a fairly much a Pyrrhic victory, if it's any victory period. That's interesting to see. In a way, he has created the situation of the saga stick time, Mr. Boo yards, which were the nobles, which are now the oligarchs. And, of course, in this case, we see the wiki, particularly the one who he knows from the inner circle of the KGB, where US have important positions, but they don't like it when their assets are Ocean, they don't like it when their children can go to boarding school anymore in London or the United States. And like it, they like to attract the customers, they can go to the Maldives, or the shells, or whatever Thailand but they don't mind going to Western Europe, they don't mind going to American, my point Australia, and you know, it's not suddenly they cannot fly, even their private plane can fly, I'm sure they are also blocked, of course, they will eventually find ways to go around it. But like they have houses everywhere. They probably have houses in Paris, but they can't visit the houses spontaneously anymore. So they don't like it. So I don't know what kind of my hope is that there will be some and of course, economic pressure when you have people standing in lines at the bank to get money out the verse of the oboe, because there is some kind of a middle class now in, in Russian, and they like to travel. I mean, that I think was the fourth largest ever come to mean tourists, as tourists in concert to travel abroad. I mean, this long winter, so you like to go to warmer places,

Scott Allen  26:08  
when you have a number of former students. What are some stories or narratives that you hear from that

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  26:13  
perspective is mixed, man, of course, is the problem of some of them, they are married to cocaine or you know, that's the mixture of it. And that causes serious problems, then, of course, there are some who there isn't elements. And that I believe that, you know, I wrote an book which not finished yet, which is it's a book about walking in, in this in the wilderness, but having a discussion with an alter ego, which is known. So I need to be known somewhere in the wilderness, and we start a discussion about life. And one thing has to do with the big sea of compromise. It means that you have to learn about empathy and compassion. And then the element of putting yourself in the shoes of the Russians. At one period, I remember when this Perestroika took place. And suddenly, you have worked all your life and you have no pension. I mean, the pension is voiceless. And also the country's looked like lost. So lost calls. So the element of pride if you suggested with or educated person, you know, the seven capital sins, and what's the what's the diversity of the gluttony, envy, greed, you know, and what is the most What's the worst thing according to those church fathers? I mean, of course, of course, you're wondering, on the left, ride Premier, the famous the famous word in the Greek word, do grace, excessive pride, that's the problem. And so the pride reserved put his pride is hurt. And so he was seen as a second class citizen by the other ones of the major economist, and that has been sitting there and sitting there and building up most politicians psychologist and to have realized the importance of the symbolism and he comes out and the flags and all the pomp and circumstances right and so he bought prior to us you to some extent but now you have a leadership brand. I mean, if you talk about the Hitler leadership brand, and people don't get excited styling the discipline people forget in Russia, at least what not a mass murderer he was. But now you have to put in leadership and I mean before that is okay, isn't. He's a dictator. But his show dictator knows how to play scarred, but now you start to wonder, of course, it's a corner with contamination that has an effect in all versions, and they feel shapes, many others reading some of those WhatsApp, they feel embarrassed what's happened embarrassed to start this morning. And of course, we we identify as the underdog with Ukraine. I mean, he has done actually he has been so short, that he has done a fantastic job in nation building. And nation building. Ukraine has become a nation thanks to him. He also has done a fantastic job as Macron the president of France at NATO is brain dead. NATO is no longer brain dead. You don't have to do that. And he's a fantastic drug to accelerate Ukraine's acceptance to European Union is done a great job he mean, but not to the job he wanted to accomplish. That's the problem.

Scott Allen  29:39  
What else is the antidote? A couple other elements education.

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  29:43  
Churchill always said that, you know, democracy is a fairy. You know, it's you have it's a work in process. It's you have to work at it all the time. That's the reason I'm concerned about American. What will be happening there. Now you also made a comment. What made Common Sense kind of cynically, democracy, just talk to the average voter. Now do this these days, you have to be an actor, a sportsman, or TV anchor to be to be become an political leader. Now Solinsky, I looked at him, I by accident, I've done some exercise dirt on the normal, CNN, and there it was giving me speech you mentioned. And I thought he did a pretty good job. Of course, when you listen to some of the people in regards to he said, he's a drug addict. I mean, put in talks about all those Nazis. He's Jewish. So I'm a sort of Nazi, but I'll tell you, I feel so you might identify as the aggressor. He's a drug addict, and he is a Nazi. So that's the accusation. Of course, every country has extreme elements. You have not yet Nazis in Ukraine and Neo Nazis. And the same thing, when you look at some of the people who are fighting Ukraine, from the Russian side, also the extreme, I think we have the proud boys in America, right? It's another Gope. So you have everywhere, I guess, people would if they would have some balance, maybe they would think twice what for the stands for? So the other, of course, what I said before, you need a free press. Now, is there a free press in the West, because when you have Fox News, you have the Murdoch family, they control some of the process is that a free pass, but you need at least some diversity of press, that's good, because I mean, I read five newspapers to get a sense of from the, from the Wall Street Journal, to whatever to the other side, to get a sense of, to get some kind of a balanced, try to understand you always be biased, they always have your particular particular orientation, and you need a very solid judiciary. Now, again, that verse me about America, the Supreme Court has become totally politicized, to have also lifetime appointments, I wonder about the teaching of that. Either. This matters, my main is my I don't I'm not saying the founder, the founders of America had dos scenarios in mind, it's very difficult to predict how country evolves. But there's some dangerous danger there. And of course, what you see happening too, when you want to be a dictator is writing an article in place of dictators is that you have to be super, you have to make people people scared. So this kind of secret surface that you're having, and does not get FB and I was caught in Russia, but and a military control over the military and the controls and Secret Service is very important because of your paranoia. When you are many a person like that. Every leader I said, need somebody who tells him or her you're full of shit

needs a full some countervailing power. So Calgary's already talked about need for caring, and strong institutions. And labor unions are important. Like it or not, they been so important to push back, but particularly the press is important. The free press is important to protect now, of course, the social media, but the social media have done a terrible job because of greed. Right? I talked to one of my students who was his media Baron. And he said, You know, it's very expensive journalist affair, good journalism, it's very expensive to do some fact checking. And that of course, now they are forced more and more do some fact checking. Before the pregnancy what the social media have done. I'm not on Facebook. I think my daughter might put me on Facebook, but I'm not on Facebook because I I've ignored it. Because I feel I feel it. It's also useful for people to keep in contact. I am on LinkedIn. But Facebook I felt and WhatsApp because I have an idea of my students are thinking so they communicate with each other. But Facebook I felt as a reaction I feel that they've done such so much harm somebody close or serious. They just report a report on the genocide in Rwanda. He has gained from the Facebook has done so much has to be very careful and people feel fake comfortable when their own point of view. I don't feel so comfortable now. Look, listen to the Ross interpretation a few days Two days ago, and saw this lady speak of the Duma, I didn't feel comfortable. I had a tendency to turn it off and go back to my favorites. Favor groups like the BBC or CNN, you know, if you're comfortable your nose, I feel comfortable with the news there. But I didn't feel comfortable. But it was interesting still to listen to how people's mind get shifted if you give enough propaganda. And again, coming back to the commenter, Nate. We are herd animals. Some Italian neurologist to talk about mirror neurons that we can instantly go into an elevator and you're looking around there actually people also looking on the internet. They also go turn around see It's all on you. When I met you, you on other people you already said like I was I was having this board meeting just before. So I do this and see a lot of people doing this song to you see what kind of invitation the

Scott Allen  35:14  
the question I keep coming back to you and listeners, you've heard me say this maybe a couple times now, but how do we, as a species, as a group of human beings evolve to a place where we can proactively handle things like climate change, or proactively update our operating system? You know, when when the founding fathers of the United States said your your justice for life? Well, people live to 63.

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  35:46  
It was, like the pension system. I mean, from Bismarck 65. I mean, people died at 55. Yes, I

Scott Allen  35:55  
have the right to bear arms to your point. There weren't there weren't weapons that they could have even imagined, today. And of course, so it's are we updating the operating system, I literally view it that way. In some ways. We're running dos. That's it from the 1980s 1880s.

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  36:18  
I tell you a story. There's a story about the flowers of Castle in the gate. Now in St. Petersburg, there is this castle, and there was a visitor who want to visit the garden in the middle of the garden was a soldier. So this is a curious visitor, and says what you're doing there. And as always, I don't so because Lieutenant return devices, so we stay in the middle of the garden was he doing there? But it must be a story, you know, so whatever it may be, he kept asking and is covered under us earlier, Cassidy indicates was walking through the garden. I'm Cynthia Natasha, I was talking with us. Because one garden, and there was this beautiful flower. She called the Sonia said, you stand Yes. And nobody steps on the flower sold, you're still standing there. I'm gonna use later. So what you said is very true. I feel a bit ambivalent because you asked me to do a podcast. And here I am. I'm a Professor of Management. That's my original title. And I'm what I try, what I try to do is really to create more reflective leaders to get better teams, I mean, give me somewhat neurotic teams. And I, I think my school is probably not the best in team coaching in the world. That's what the unfairly I guess I basically cloned so many people, I also tried to get better places to work. And of course, one thing is to have people I wrote funny books like tax money happiness in this, but how to get a better lifestyle. So that's what I do in particular, since 95, or 85% of the people who do the Gallup poll of people in the world don't feel engaged in the companies. So they have a wasted life. And we have only one life. So I want the books I wrote this are the eight books was covers, which, in the end, we all looking for meaning. And I try to make a little bit they don't like models. So it's not my thing. But I said your meaning is dependent on what are your talents, your competencies, some people have degrees, that body may be combat athletes, or other people that could analytical skills, then of course has to do with controller control, what choices can you make, and I was asked to give a speech in Holland in my old alma mater, after 50 years, and I realized that many of the people I was in classes are dead. And many of them made extremely bad choices in life and to do is partner and also career. So make learning how to make choices. But the most important part is of course, when you think about the famous Harvard longitudinal study 1938 to still I mean, so many directors, what is most important to live for even they asked the people in the study belonging, having good relations, family and friends. And then I believe I added something more to it, which has to do with transcendence to like you, you try to do something more than just do your own doing something for society, there's more than just for yourself. And so that is what meaning is a purpose. By the way, also the purpose, the purpose is future oriented. Meaning is basically what your life is all about. If you can get those things together. And that's the people who come to me usually are in the mid 40s. And why, you know, when you're in the mid 40s, you're you're immortal, by the way you are, you're older, you know, people you look in the mirror, you'll lose your hair, you need glasses, et cetera, with each modality, and people around you are dying, you know, people you know, are dying. And I always say you look at see mirrors, one mirror is yourself and you see your wrinkles and whatever, or the mirror your children, which brings up lots of memories, and then your parents and say, My God, I don't want to become like them. I want to be all those things go together.

Scott Allen  39:48  
Well, you said something. Well, actually, it wasn't something you said it was something you wrote in one of the articles that you sent me that you'd written recently, or maybe it was an interview that you did, but I took this snippet out because it was Just so beautifully communicated, but you said, Happiness has something to do someone to love, and something to hope for.

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  40:07  
It's not my statement, and I don't know who first said it, okay? Is it as a philosopher, Immanuel Kant, or is the Chinese proverb, of course somebody and well known Filmstar said, happiness is a good house and a bad memory, which I'd like to buy. I think it was Ingrid Bergman, who said that good health and bad memory. But this is a fairly simple formula, actually, of course, when you get older, depending, I had on my teachers at Harvard was Eric Erickson. He was a man of human development. So it's interesting, he never got he never got the university degree Good for him. So he was said to go Montessori diploma, that's what he had became a university professor, the highest honor you get at, at Harvard. But he talks he was the one who really focused on the adult lifecycle also, and, you know, certain ages has to do with integrity versus despair. There's a famous song by this French lady DPF, Andrea, Andrea, I don't regret anything. Of course, she regrets things, some things, but looking back at your life, you know, I mean, and also, Aristotle talked about that. One is he Donia, that you create pleasant moments for yourself every day, I hope for this interview is somewhat pleasant, you know, I mean, some people give energy, some people take energy and whatever. Then the other thing is looking back at your life, and Erickson talks about the polarity, integrity versus despair. And that's important, you know, do you look at look at your life, and a whole list of failed chances, or you feel, you know, you did what you could, you know, you made some mistakes, and you learn from those mistakes. But in general, you look back, and anything important thing is not your identification, we are lucky that we are an indication, we try to give to help people. You know, of course, you have to take care of yourself to make sure because otherwise you drain yourself. But the ability to give the altruistic motive actually is good for your mental health. And you'll live longer as a result. So when I started talking about, or Donia, and hidden, and hidden, or demonia, it's this mix is important how to create happy moments, life consists out of happy moments, of course, happy being happy all the time, you manage be institutionalized. I wrote a little book on happiness when I was depressed. I'm not the only one. I think people who had books in happiness are probably depressed. Is this like my, my walking in the in the wilderness with this GNOME, is also a way of stating things in my I wrote a little book recently, which came out in future weeks ago, called on wisdom. And really, I don't even have the same experience, the things I learned. So my students, I mean, they basically, like I now, when I was now there in Russia, I learned a lot from them. Yes, it stimulated me not to sing what was really important, what's important, and how to how to be the most authentic, not having to. And that's the problem. Now, when I did talk at his breakfast as his colleague of mine, how not to have to put up your false self because his way of survival, because whatever, you know what I'm talking about, don't get knocked at four o'clock in the morning yet, but other things happen to you.

Scott Allen  43:27  
Well, your your sense of curiosity, and your output over your career is so incredibly admirable, and your desire to help others make sense of their work, what's happening around them, helping them be more empathetic and reflective in their leadership. I think it's an incredible mission. Because if we can help people just be more reflective, it sounds it sounds simple, common sense, but it's not common practice, as you know.

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  44:01  
I mean, they mean the famous poem of liking it, I feel it like I really no problem. They fuck you up your mom and dad. I mean, it's, it's very true. And so you try to and they will, of course, as he says in the poem, the refractive index. So the question is as a parent to prevent spread that I always use the parent that the parable of the hedgehogs of Schopenhauer of the two headshots in the winter. Actually, one of my books is titled that but you have to create as a parent, secure headshots, not anxious headshots, and that will determine Of course your partner relationship, your relationship with work, all those things, to have an inner security, but if you're very insecure, like your hero, Trump Mercuria robot, Tom, I'm unique everyday telling people you're the greatest. You're the best. You're fantastic. I mean, listening to his son in law, he must have learned the formula. I remember him talking about the peace accord at the time this phony peace accord. We are Israel and Palestine. He Every second word he said, you know, the gay president basically if you say that the heck of these Okay, otherwise and that is very dangerous

Scott Allen  45:09  
like my radar went up when when the statement was I alone can fix this. And again that's not a commentary on on republican or democrat that's an individual's statement that probably is false regardless of your politics.

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  45:25  
Me It's not me but V V V.

Scott Allen  45:29  
Yes exactly.

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  45:31  
Get Out Get Out say get rid of the narcissist you're going to feel it's going to be somewhat narcissistic but at least be aware of it and see and see beyond that you have a good partner say you're full of shit and I get the full I've written on that. Although I use sometimes not to the moral self, the wise fool that full of King Lear. Of course force can be added on a regular basis. That's another problem. I think nobody at this point in time is coming back to Russia dares to say anything against Putin, that's the problem because bad things will happen.

Scott Allen  46:06  
Well, sir, I can't thank you enough for your time today. I can't thank you enough for the work that you do, and what you put out into the world and I also I'll put it in the show notes but in one of the articles you reference the starfish story and that as a teaser for listeners into into the show notes so that they can check out that story because I think it's a wonderful perspective to have and I hope you will come back you know, we could just have you have you come every time you release a new book so if like five six times a year

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  46:42  
that's very unusual. I mean eight books in two years is completely ridiculous. But last book is not I mean still think for us it's finished but I I want to marinate it a little bit that's what I usually do because until two books are based in publication also, I mean, I mean, my my publishers hate me, because I'm like, number of years into propaganda but I eight books. How do you handle them? Yes.

Scott Allen  47:12  
We'll be Well, sir, thank you so much.

Dr. Manfred Kets de Vries  47:14  
Thank you for inviting me. Goodbye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai