Dr. Kathy L. Guthrie is an Associate Professor of Higher Education in the Department of Educational Leadership and Policy Studies at Florida State University. In addition to teaching, Dr. Guthrie also serves as the director of the Leadership Learning Research Center and coordinates the Undergraduate Certificate in Leadership Studies. Dr. Guthrie has authored and co-authored more than 30 refereed journal articles, six book chapters, two books, and co-edited three monographs and an additional book. The winner of multiple awards and honors, Kathy is an editorial board member of the Journal of Leadership Education and Journal of College and Character.
Books and Publications by Dr. Kathy Guthrie
Authors and Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Other Podcast Guests Mentioned In This Episode
Dr. Kathy L. Guthrie is an Associate Professor of Higher Education in the Department of Educational Leadership and Policy Studies at Florida State University. In addition to teaching, Dr. Guthrie also serves as the director of the Leadership Learning Research Center and coordinates the Undergraduate Certificate in Leadership Studies. Dr. Guthrie has authored and co-authored more than 30 refereed journal articles, six book chapters, two books, and co-edited three monographs and an additional book. The winner of multiple awards and honors, Kathy is an editorial board member of the Journal of Leadership Education and Journal of College and Character.
Books and Publications by Dr. Kathy Guthrie
Authors and Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Other Podcast Guests Mentioned In This Episode
Note: Voice to text transcriptions are about 85% accurate.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, welcome everybody, hope you're having a great day. We have Dr. Kathy Guthrie with us today on the program. And she's an Associate Professor of Higher Education in the Department of Educational Leadership and Policy Studies at Florida State University. She's also leads the Leadership Learning Research Center at FSU. And she's also in charge of the undergraduate certificate. She also has a family and is an author and a scholar, and just an incredibly good person. So I'm excited for all of you today. For those of you who may not know Dr. Guthrie, I'm excited for you to meet her. Now, she also was an associate editor on the New Directions in Leadership Series. And I believe Kathy, Susan is the co-editor on that right, Susan Komives?
Kathy Guthrie 0:50
She is and I get to learn from her daily which is beautiful!
Scott Allen 0:55
So Kathy, thank you for being with us. Thanks for spending the time. For those of you who are listening, when we're recording this, it is literally probably the first day of school for both of our institutions, our children, there's a lot going on. So I thank you for being here. Would you tell our guests a little bit about you, Kathy?
Kathy Guthrie 1:12
Oh, yes, well, thank you for having me, this is such an honor to be able to have a conversation, I love to take the time anytime I can with you, Scott, honestly, because I love being in that space and, and learning from you. But So a little bit about myself, I am in the context of higher education, I worked in administration in higher ed. And that's where I got my PhD and actually come to leadership through a lens of service. I was a Director of the Office of Volunteer Programs for many years when I was getting my PhD at the University of Illinois-Urbana Champaign. And so I realized how much that has shaped my framework and my lens is that administrative hats that I still currently, you know, wear as a director and a coordinator.
Scott Allen 1:57
Yeah, yeah. Well, so tell me a little bit more about that. Tell me more about the service-learning lens and how it's kind of informed how you think about this topic. I mean, that's, that's a really cool lens to look at this through.
Kathy Guthrie 2:10
Yeah, I really, really, really is I did actually a couple of years of community organizing as well. And so I think about leadership is how are we you know, having positive sustainable change, and that is, in multiple contexts, right? So the community aspect, in the sense of service, which as we all know, is part of servant leadership, but much bigger than servant leadership and kind of theory around how we are and why we need leadership. And so the community framework has helped me look at the topic of leadership from multiple disciplines, right, that sometimes aren't. And I just have appreciated that service piece of it. Someone asked me years ago, so what do you think you're put on this Earth to do and I was like, "serve?" And I think of that through education, and that education can be a conversation walking somewhere, and not just with students, but with friends. And, and you know, that lifespan approach, it could be anyone, but how are we in this together? And so I think about that in the community aspect.
Scott Allen 3:15
Yeah. Well, and you recently finished a book, it was called the Role of Leadership, Educators Transforming Learning. Would you talk a little bit about that share some stories about the impetus of that book, how it came to be what you learned through that process? I'd love to hear that story. Because, Kathy, we have, we've been at so many conferences together, but we're always this is literally one of the first conversations one on one we've ever had. So I'm excited!
Kathy Guthrie 3:44
Yes, we're typically in a group, right. Agreed
Scott Allen 3:47
Drinking wine with Laura Osteen right?
Kathy Guthrie 3:49
Right. Yes. You know, so, the, and it's funny the Role of Leadership Educators, I call it the butterfly book because the cover has butterfly in it. It's about transforming. And I got the pleasure of writing that with Dan Jenkins, which I know, you know, Dan, and we had him on. But it really was from a place of, "wow, we don't know what, how our leadership educators trained?"...and we really don't know. Yeah, and I know that when I first got into the field, I was literally, I was perpetuating so many bad things, because I was creating leadership programs in a curricular and co-curricular format. That was how I learned, which is one white woman's perspective. And so I was just perpetuating that. And so it in our program in the higher education program, they said, We need a course for Student Affairs administrators to be able to be leadership educators, yeah, so how do you want to do this course I literally walked into a faculty meeting and I come out with creating a new course that is a required part of our curriculum, and I was like, there are no books out there. That really helped Has it all in one space? And I was talking to the publisher just about ideas. And he said, "Well then write it." Yeah. And so I was like, Dan, "you're the curriculum and instruction person. Yeah. But if we do this together, and it was a great, great partnership for us to be able to work on together, and so that was really the start of it was there's not, you know, a lot of resources. There's a lot of piecemeal things that you can put together. But to have something that's comprehensive is really where that book came from.
Scott Allen 5:27
Yep. Well, and take us through some highlights of that resource, just so listeners have a perspective on how you all approached that project.
Kathy Guthrie 5:38
So we looked at it from a leadership learning framework, which actually draws a lot on your work. Allen, you did an article in 2016, about that. I think it's called the Language of Leadership Learning.
Scott Allen 5:49
Oh, yeah. Yeah,
Kathy Guthrie 5:52
we took a lot of the thought from your article and looking at so we have we know about the TED model, the training, education, and development model? And then how, how else has that evolved over time. And so it's really looking at the learning piece. So it's great that we talk about leadership education, and that leadership educators, but really, we need to be flipping the script and talking about learners. Who is in our classroom at who is, you know, going to our leadership development programs, and then thinking about those individuals, the learners. And again, that is not just college students, right? That is put in whatever population you want, and then going from there. So we talked about the six, we have six aspects of leadership learning, and we have a great little visual, it's a steering wheel because to be a learner, you have to also take control of your own learning. So yeah, that was really the start of Well, that's great. We're talking about the learners. And that's the first half of the book. And then the second half look looks at specific pedagogy. And so we talked about different pedagogy, but what, what are examples and just actually a few months ago, we came up with a companion manual to have actual activities that people can really grasp onto and grab and say, Okay, this is an idea of how to use a case study. That's just not the same old case studies that we use, but how can we really make it specific and intentional for our learners?
Scott Allen 7:24
Well, I love that you've done that because I think, I think sometimes we get so caught up in Well, I think an Achilles heel of our work is that so much is left undefined. Um, and I think Barbara Kellerman, I'm in my discussion with her on this topic, she said, "I don't even really care how you're defining leadership, just define it. So people have an understanding." And I think that's, that's a major, it's a fundamental baseline struggle that we have. What's the difference between education, learning, studies, training, development? Right? And I think clarity on some of that terminology, regardless of the nuances of what words you choose, but clarity on that seems to me to be a foundation from which we then build. But there's a lot of well-intended people, myself included, to your point, right. When I first started this, I came up through Greek life. And that's the first time I ever really designed leadership education. Well, I didn't have there was no, I didn't have your book, to even begin to guide the way I'd read the Leadership Challenge. Right. That was it. And, and so there's a lot of opportunity, because then I think if we have some of that foundation in place, then we can look to instructional strategies, we can look to evaluation techniques, and we can do it with so much more intentionality. Because I think that's part of the challenges that there, there's a lot of, there's a lot happening out there. I don't know how much is really happening with some semblance of intentionality. And I don't say that like, "Oh, I have all the answers. I figured this out." But you know what I mean?
Kathy Guthrie 9:09
Absolutely.
Scott Allen 9:10
Anything we can do to get a little closer to, oh, we want to facilitate personal growth, and kind of take a humanistic lens. Great. Here's how we can think about that orientations and learning and do so in a very planful way. Right?
Kathy Guthrie 9:28
Absolutely. And I think also naming those that we might have overlooked before like observation is a huge way. I mean, I think of all the times that I observe, and I learn, but we don't acknowledge that and I think of how are, you know, I have a seven-year-old daughter and I look at how she observes even what she's seeing on TV. And then that is how she defines leadership. And so we have to have that reflection and that meaning-making for observation, but that's oftentimes we don't acknowledge that observation is a way of earning. No just leadership, but everything.
Scott Allen 10:02
Oh, for sure. For sure that that whole social learning dimension now Albert Bandura piece and you know all of that the social cognitive kind of? Yes. And I think getting a sense and getting our hands around some of the definitions again, regardless of kind of how you define them. But then, okay, if this is what I'm trying to accomplish. Now, here's some, like we said, instructional strategies, here's some activities. Here's some resources. Here's how we can evaluate that.
Kathy Guthrie 10:33
Yeah, absolutely.
Scott Allen 10:35
Well, that's awesome. So So what was your greatest learning? In the process of writing the book from a content standpoint? Is there anything that stood out for you? Where at the end, you said, Wow, I've never thought about it this way?
Kathy Guthrie 10:48
Well, you know, what hit me, oh, I would say flatten me, you know, you have those moments when you're writing something, and then you have that moment of, if "we missed the boat," and I had the conversation with Dan, I said, we have got to now step back and recalibrate a little bit. And it was around the identity of educators. So this book is for leadership educators, the butterfly book, like air quotes, that it's for leadership educators, but we're not talking about our own identity as educators, and I'm Yes, professional identity, like (Kerry) Priest and (Corey) Seemiller's work, but also our social identities, what salient for us, the intersections of our identities, how that shows up, every time that we are talking about leadership, because since leadership is socially constructed, and how our identity matters, I remember having that conversation with Dan saying, "oh, my goodness, we meet this needs to be like the second chapter, because that frames the rest of it," and we were, you know, well on our way from being done with a book. And as if we need to pull back in it. There actually should be a book just on that. But here, we need to honor and start scratching the surface of that conversation about identity as leadership educators. And in more, I would say, professional identity, but really salient identity and how, say a black male would be, you know, received messages received differently than myself as a white female. And so we how are we taking those into considerations and having the conversations in our intentional planning?
Scott Allen 12:23
Yeah, right. So, no, I think it's it's incredibly important, incredibly important, because, and I think, I think it's such a wise observation, because that's another thing, literally, Kathy, and probably because I am a white male. And I've just in some cases, I haven't had to think about certain dimensions of stuff. In the last five months of really working on this podcast, I've, I've done a lot of exploration, and learned a lot of there's guests that have really, it's funny because certain guests will say, "Well, you know, you've read and you've read this, and you've read that," and I'm sitting here saying "No, I haven't I don't know what you mean." And, and I, that's...I'm being stretched, but kind of what I'm just laying at the feet of the students, if I'm not in tune with who I am, where I come from, where I see the world, what privilege I have any number of different dimensions, that that's a missed, that's a missed opportunity. And so some cases could be damaging. Right?
Kathy Guthrie 13:25
Right. well, and to have the missed opportunity of having a connection with a student that may have never identified as a leader before. I mean, I remember having that conversation one time with a student. And I said, I didn't identify as a leader until I was in college, because of my personal background. And they just looked at me like, "Wow, I didn't, I would never have guessed that." You're a leadership educator like you're my professor. And I was like, "Oh, yes, but I'm from a farm town in central Illinois, very poverty-stricken area." So it was just never one of those things that we talked about. And I think about that greatly now that I'm seeing my daughter and her ideas and views of leadership, come up all the time. And I know, you know, there's a lot of great research on that. And I'm not, it's not my area of research, but my observation, because you do learn by observation. It's been, you know, fascinating.
Scott Allen 14:18
Talk about the children's book. I'd love to hear. I'd love to hear that story. I'd love to hear that story. Because you've just mentioned your daughter, which then flagged and reminded me that you've done some work in those spaces as well, which is so cool.
Kathy Guthrie 14:32
Yeah, yes. Oh, so there is a superhero. She's a girl Her name's Kloey. Yes. Marvelous & Kind Kloey. She is a girl superhero. And it is a phenomenal story. It actually is the illustrator and the co-author of the books is my husband's cousin. And I say that because it is a prime example of someone who has brilliant talent and she was doodling on a family vacation and I said, "Can you make that into a superhero girl for my daughter." And then as we continued the conversation, we said, we really need to make Kloey come alive. And so we started writing books. And there's one just about, you know, kind of sets her up as a person who, you know, she's a superhero, of course, in this phenomenal world, world called University, University City. So people know University and how that connects with me. But it is an incredible story of how she needed to ask for help. And she figured out how to and then it went on to how Kloey learned about leadership because we were seeing those gaps in younger especially, like preschool, pre K, kindergarten, and how they were thinking only their views of leadership was the line leader. And so that book really introduced different ways of looking at leadership. And then we have a third one about being grateful. So we're continually figuring out how to bring Kloey into the forefront of not only our because Danielle, the co-author has a daughter as well. And that's where Kloey comes from Kinley and her daughter's name is Zoey. So it's a fun, fun way of really putting forward girl kind of empowerment and thinking of, you know, how we all superheroes and being kind?
Scott Allen 16:28
Well, in some of my conversations, whether it was with Susan Murphy, or even David Day mentioned this, some of the lifespan work, that if with our children, we can be formulating and helping them think through and even define earlier, what is leadership can I be a leader, to your point, it's not just being a line leader, and influence. And so I just love that. I absolutely love that. And then again, moving forward and just other books where Kloey is that the whole notion of gratitude and being grateful, right? So we've had to work on that quite a bit this summer with our children. We just started classes today. And I believe there's some to your point about observing others. There's my wife and I, we knew that as soon as we got into summer, it was going to be a different summer. And how do you how do you help them navigate that path of "Okay, it's going to be different" because ours are 10 and 12. But also find all the great good and the opportunity, even though we've lost some things we can still. Now, of course, that's a very privileged statement that I'm making. But how do we reframe so that there's gratitude? And even last night at dinner, we talked about, well, what are you grateful for? From the summer? And they each had they had wonderful summers? Right?
Kathy Guthrie 17:56
Right. Powerful it really is?
Scott Allen 18:02
So what are you thinking about right now? Kathy? What's on your mind? Do you have some projects that are kind of lm? Sure you do, what I should say what projects are simmering either on the front burner the back burner? What are you thinking about?
Kathy Guthrie 18:15
Yeah, so really, where my mind is, is all the complexities this pandemic has, has shown us? Yeah, I feel it, it has put the spotlight on so many things that and I say we collectively we're too busy. Me collect me by myself is do too busy to really slow down and think about or to acknowledge, and the complexities are and that, yes, we're in frameworks of education and leadership and business and but how that's in every industry and leadership cuts across all those industries and how that spotlight has shown us how we need to be more agile, right? Prepare, and think about crisis, not only management but leadership. Yeah, I think about, again, that identity piece, cultural relevance, I think the Black Lives Matter movement has shown me and really caused me to pause in ways that I haven't in the past. I mean, I've always thought about it, I've always done work in socially just leadership, education, and culturally relevant leadership learning model, but to think about my role and how and when I am, you know, being part of the problem or part of the solution, right? And really having those honest conversations with myself and others, but I'm also thinking about differences between diversity, inclusion, and equity, and how pulling those apart and it's interesting and how different industries and different people will use those terms, very differently. And so, you know, I know of places that have diversity checklists, right? And how that is very different from the conversation of inclusion. Yeah, and especially inclusive leadership, because that is becoming more and more. And I know that you just recently had a guest that talked about that. But so then how do we not only include people, right, include everyone but then also how are we making sure that it's equitable? And what we're doing is culturally relevant? So all of those, I mean, how do we hold these multiple truths and continue to move forward?
Scott Allen 20:38
Yeah. Yeah, there's just there's, there's it's a it's a, it's a fascinating context. Right. Now, the complexity to your point, it's, it's overwhelming. Yeah. It's overwhelming.
Kathy Guthrie 20:54
Yes. And so those multiple complexities are all coming together. And I think, you know, we're seeing it more now than I think in a lot of times in, in recent history, absolutely. But even when we look at, you know, history in a longer sense, just with elections, and you know, right now is a, it's a, it's a perfect storm because that's not it, but how, how is this all coming together in this moment in time? And how we will figure out what leadership and how will that continue to move us forward? In which ways will move us forward?
Scott Allen 21:30
Yeah. What, what models? Can you think of even our you could look at this through the transformational leadership, situational Leadership, we could look at this through a number of different lenses, what they all feel like they break down for me, I can't turn to situational leadership at this moment, I can't change turn to LMX theory. And I know that some of those are not designed for the kind of what we're, what we're facing. But are there models or theories that you're finding relevance and right now?
Kathy Guthrie 22:08
Yeah, I don't think there's one perfect model ever or theory? Never. But what I've really been, you know, rereading deeply thinking about is, of course, Adaptive Leadership. I don't, I think that is an absolute no brainer, almost. But then also, how is that situated in this culturally relevant leadership learning? And again, that is thinking about, what is our environment? What is around us? How does that play a part in how we identify as a leader engage in the leadership process? Of course, our capacity and efficacy? How are we critical of things around us and what is happening? So it has been a deep moment of moments, many moments of thinking through, and then also going back to, you know, everyone's hot on Hamilton, and I've been in love with Hamilton for years. But then to think about Wow, isn't that interesting, our founding fathers? Hmm. And what some of the things that they were engaged in, and that, you know, Alexander Hamilton was What, 19? And so we are seeing this happening again? And how different or is it different? So I'm thinking a lot about the just increase of complexity. And with that, it's like, how do you break that down for projects, I am working on a few things. One is a co-edited book with Dr. Vivechkanand S. Chunoo, and we had an edited book that came out in 2018, called Changing the Narrative: Socially Just Leadership Education. And that was just a collection of voices to really talk about what socially just leadership education is, and just to start the conversation, it was not all-inclusive, because by the sheer it's a book we couldn't, but how are we just stepping dipping our toe? Kind of? How are we starting the conversation? And so the second book is shifting the mindset, which is continuing the conversation. And the whole idea is this call to action? Like, yes, we are engaged in the conversation, but it's much more about what is that call to action? How are we collectively doing this work? And when I say this work, that it depends on the context you're in and what whether that is, you know, focusing on followership focus if I could list all of it, but really thinking about that socially just leadership education, and really thinking about collective voices in this process. And so that's one of them. And it's been powerful and continuing that process.
Scott Allen 24:46
So that is what's an insight from that project that stood out for you so far?
Kathy Guthrie 24:51
How we're all in this kind of complexity is overwhelming, but how do we continue to move forward by leaning into the conversations and calling other people in, instead of out. Yep. Right. So how do we call people into the conversation and saying, "Oh, you know, you use that wrong word," or, you know, and instead of saying, "let's have that conversation." And it's been powerful for me because there, I've used wrong words. And I've had people say, "you know what I just want to educate you." And I'm like, "thank you, thank you for making me, you know, a part of this conversation." So that has been a big insight for me is just how are we also being in that space? And in that story and that narrative together?
Scott Allen 25:36
Yeah. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about empathy. And in many ways, the lack of empathy that's occurring in the system right now. It's, you know, winners, losers, right? Wrong, this that good, bad. And of course, it's more difficult than that. And how do we get the how do we get? Whether it's ourselves? I mean, that's enough of a challenge at times? How do we get ourselves or groups or communities, to better empathize and try to understand the perspective of others try to understand the lived experiences of others. And to your point, engage in those conversations, engage in those dialogues so that we evolve, not just "I" but "we," but what's the holding environment back to kind of a little bit of Heifetz? What's the old man for that? And how does that? How does that have you mobilized enough people to begin? Because that's also really scary work? That's hard work. That's it's how do you think about that? Do you agree? Yeah,
Kathy Guthrie 26:47
No, it is it's very hard and scary. And you're putting yourself out there? I mean, it absolutely is. And I think about this, the, I think there are multiple holding environments, and there needs to be because that context is just so important. And I know, multiple leadership scholars and practitioners say that, but I think keeping that in the forefront of our mind is, is really critical. And thinking about, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement, this has been happening for how long? I mean, it's just constant. And I, I think about the exhaustion of my colleagues that are dealing with on a day to day basis where I know my privilege that I can step outside and not think about it, because I'm white, right? That never, and so how do I not only have the empathy but thinking about? Are there ways that we can amplify voices and then be like, I'm out, right? Like, this isn't about me, this is about you. And I'm just, you know, trying to facilitate or when is that even harmful? Because that is harmful as well. And so having, you know, right, the intention versus impact conversation, but it is exhausting. And so I think about just taking care of each other in those conversations are and that's easier said than done. Absolutely. But something we need to be thinking about, especially as we roll into November, I think it's he didn't even more so but and not just in the education industries and all industries.
Scott Allen 28:25
Well, and also you coming from a small town in Illinois, where, if that's my what's the name of the town, Kathy?
Kathy Guthrie 28:43
Oh, Ashkum. It's 600 people.
Scott Allen 28:46
So I grew up in Minneapolis, but I grew up going to Fort Dodge, Iowa. And that's where my grandfather and grandmother lived in my uncle and cousin and Fort Dodge. My grandfather worked at Hormel, his whole career, he didn't have a college education. He didn't have a high school education. He's an electrician for Hormel, and he could provide a good living. And a lot of those communities are struggling. I don't know if you're seeing that back home. But a lot of those communities are struggling as well.
Kathy Guthrie
Yes, no, that that is for sure. But you know, I think that it's that's the other piece right of this complexity is the social class right? So the intersections of all these different identities, yes, it is powerful when we think about in social classes something I've thought about my entire life I didn't even know I was poor until went to college, right? Like didn't even cross my mind didn't even know that wasn't a part of my narrative or my identity until I realized oh, other people. Don't go to Goodwill for their clothes. Oh, okay. Again, that is part of my identity. And I think about that, but how that complexity in those intersections, right of identity. And so how now I am very much middle class, and I don't have to worry about where my next meal is gonna come from and so forth. But then how does that, you know, how do I create space for others? And I, I say this to some of my PhD students, I literally I am first gen all the way. But my decision to go to get my terminal degree was that I had a place at the table. Absolutely. Yeah, right. I mean, that was my number one motivator, so that I could give voice when no one in my area. I mean, most people didn't have a high school education. Right, so that I could give voice and so I think about how important that is when we think about leadership, that process but then also the leader, and then how are we providing space and place? And you know, that relevance for students who might not identify from these different populations to have those conversations and to even engage in it?
Scott Allen
Yep. So yep. Kathy, when you figure this out, would you just send me an email and give me give me the answer?
Kathy Guthrie 31:15
that we all need to be doing this together? Right. It's a call that we all as we all take our little pieces of this complex topic area, how are we doing it together? Right? I mean, that's what it's all about.
Scott Allen 31:28
Yeah, really? Well, I have, I have great respect, I have great respect for just the breadth of the work. So let's talk about that for a moment, the breadth of the type of work you're doing, whether that's being in the classroom, or its children's books, you increase email, or put together another resource with cards that I saw last November, you're writing journal articles, you're writing books. Talk about that? Do you just have endless energy for this topic? Is there a deep reservoir of fuel? And for the many varieties of work that you're doing? Would you talk a little bit about that? Because it's, it's inspiring, as soon as people see the show notes, and I've linked to all of the different things that you're working on? It's really fun. It's really fun. So would you talk a little bit about your process? And, and the source of that, what do you think that is?
Kathy Guthrie 32:22
Yeah. Well, honestly, the source my daughter, hmm, it will be so honest about that, because, and it didn't come to me until she was a couple of years old. And someone says, so why do you do this work? It was a simple question. And all of a sudden, I got all this emotion. And I'm like, because I want this world to be better for her, not just her, but her generation, right? Like, I see where we move forward, and we move backwards, and how can we get to a place where we're, she's gonna deal with the same stuff. Let me just say that that is happening right now or that we've dealt with. And so when I see her, that's like, my life's mission, right? Like I'm here to serve, and to figure out how to make this, you know, this context of the world, a little bit better, right. And so I think of that through education and starting the conversation, how many times have just had a random conversation? And people come back and say, "Oh, I never really thought about that until you mentioned that." And it's like, that's what education is. Right? But as far as the breadth of kind of projects, I, The other thing I would say is every day, I feel so incredibly lucky to work with the people I do. Yeah, they are the ones that they continue to keep me where I need to be. And but they have the brilliance and the knowledge. I lucky to work with a scholar, Dr. Cameron Beatty, who is also at Florida State. And I just feel lucky every day to be able to learn from him. And for us to be able to figure out kind of some of these, these issues together. And so he's an example. There's a whole team, you know, Dr. Sally Watkins, Dr. Marianne Lorensen, and then right now we have eight doc students that are working in the Leadership Learning Research Center. And it's really amazing to hear and they're all focused on leadership, being a leadership educator, and leadership scholar. And so all of them have their, you know, specific areas that they're working on. And I love it, because it's anywhere from global leadership, to how do we incorporate leadership within career development. So it's really a wide spectrum. But it all focuses on that leadership learning and so that, I would say the breath is also able to be creative and knowing that journal articles or books aren't always the right way to get messages across, right? People can really take it in and digested and really use it. And so I know that I am very fortunate to have that, that team and those people in my company every day, I really, really do some kind of the two-part right Yes. Kinley is my motivation, my daughter and
Scott Allen 35:05
the team
Kathy Guthrie 35:06
and the team.
Scott Allen 35:07
Well, and that's another wonderful thing about our work is that you can choose the team in some cases of who you want to write with and explore with, and which is so much fun. And I loved your answer is a beautiful answer about your daughter. Beautiful answer. Because I agree, I have two daughters, myself. And just think, again, it was my conversation with Julie Owen where that really became front and center for me is Oh, wow, wow. I hadn't thought of some of the things we discussed or that we discussed in that Inclusify with Stephanie Johnson episode. Which again, is learning for me for sure.
Kathy Guthrie 35:51
Right? It is, it's so powerful. And, you know, whenever my daughter will say, Well, why, or what, you know, just the simple Why? That's a good question. And I was, I was on a call the other day, and she came and sat on my lap, right? But we were talking about these, you know, how are we being more diverse and equitable and inclusive and having these conversations and then her asking me some of the questions afterward was like, No, you're at, you're asking exactly the question that we all should be asking, you really are and so that is a moment of learning and thinking from a seven-year-old framework, that when you have to tell your daughter why, like, so why are black men getting killed? Why wait, because of their skin is a different color? I don't get And literally, I don't understand it. And like, we don't either, and that's why we need to change it, right? Like or whatever, however, we frame that. But those questions, it's, it's powerful to be able to have those conversations with her to then push my thinking along as well. And I'm like, wow, it's such a simple question. That's not simple.
Scott Allen 36:57
And it's so interesting to see their observations, the first time they learn that that's a thing that the processing that you can visibly see on their faces, whether it's sadness or worry, or it's it's an amazing moment that I've never even thought of until you just verbalized it right there with your daughter. But yes, I mean, that's happening, often, and part of it is their age and stage. They're becoming more aware of the world around them, whether it's something that happens at school or with a friend or something that happens on the news, or any number of other outlets, but that moment when they learn some of those things about the world and that innocent, well, "why is that a thing? Why is that even, if I don't get it," to your point...Yes.
Kathy Guthrie 37:46
Yes. And then it's then that gives me the motivation to say how do we engage in these conversations? Right, like, right, so and you know, and the other thing about the Marvelous & Kind Kloey book is we were very intentional about well, so who is represented in this book? Yeah, who are the superheroes? Who are, you know, and was very thoughtful about making sure that anyone could pick it up and see themselves in it. And that was, I mean, even to like hairstyles, right? I mean, everything. And it takes a lot more work than people would think, to really be intentional about every little piece of even a picture, because that does really, it's worth 1000 words. Right? So and how is that being displayed in all aspects of my life and my work? So I think about quite a bit.
Scott Allen 38:35
Kathy, we are at time, we've been going for about 40 minutes. And so it's time for the lightning round. lightning round is really, it's just about what you're streaming, what you're listening to what you're reading, maybe, maybe what you're watching anything standing out for you, as you've reflected in summer that you really enjoyed?
Kathy Guthrie 38:57
You know, I allowed the summer to put me down a lot of rabbit holes. I went down, I would be reading something, it'll be Oh, that's an interesting citation and I wouldn't bought the book. Okay. I did that a lot this summer. And normally, I'm very intentional about my like, 20 books I read every summer what I'm going to do, but I let myself wander a little bit. The one I will say book that I've been thinking about, and I read it, probably about a month ago. It's about play. And it's an older book. It's in 2010 actually, right here on my desk, I'm Stuart Brown, Play: How it Shapes the Brain, Opens the Imagination, and Invigorates the Soul. And it was such a great not only, just a great text but great moments in there to think about how important play is for that creativity. And so when my daughter's like, hey, let's play for 10 minutes. I'm like, "you better believe it." But in the books it talks about..."I'm all for it, right? Well, let me do the laundry, no, the laundry Come on." But it has a great kind of opening visual of, you know, dogs get really excited. And they're so excited. And they're so they run so fast that they run right past you, and they stop, and they come back in the dark back and forth, how those 30 seconds are pure joy for them. And so the author talks about, well, how do we do that more for ourselves? And, and how we can just release, you know, and then come back. And I have been very intentional about doing that. And it has changed my attitude. We were talking about gratitude, just kind of my appreciation for where I'm at. And what I'm able to do. I think about Hamilton is on my mind as well. But you know, how lucky we are to be alive right now, where it seems like there's so there's a lot of complexity and heaviness, how can I be thankful that "wow, I'm able to be alive and be a part of the change that's needed?" And so how can I incorporate play to help me not be so exhausted? Yeah, to be able to move forward and do that. So I would definitely recommend play by Stewart Brown, cuz it was wonderful. He's like, founder of some National Institute of play, which I was like, This is wonderful.
Scott Allen 41:19
Talk about a wonderful world or surround yourself with the right. I'm gonna focus on play, you know,
Kathy Guthrie 41:26
I know, I know, and just how important it is. I will also say my mom is one of the most playful people and I really grown to appreciate that about her. Not really, really kind of forgot that about her but , really appreciating and how she has informed my thought about that. So I would say that's the one thing that is really been incorporating so I tried to stream and do everything around fun laughing a lot.
Scott Allen 41:55
I love it. When I think of you Kathy I think of laughing a lot because we should shout out our good friend Laura Osteen every year in November we have this gathering where we have a great meal and like we mentioned some wine and, and we laugh a lot. I have loved our time together. Thank you so much for spending a very very busy period of time to have this conversation. It's been so much fun. Thank you for the work that you do.
Kathy Guthrie 42:25
Thank you. Thank you.
Scott Allen 42:27
Okay, be well.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai