Note: Voice to text transcriptions are about 90% accurate.
Scott Allen 0:43
Okay, so Marcy and I are longtime friends, because of our friend, Mike McRee. I think mostly, we met probably around 2006/2007. And of course, we've written together a little bit. And you've been on this adventure for the last few years. And I'm really excited to jump into this conversation around coaching. And being an embedded internal coach. I think there's a lot of people doing coaching out there. But it isn't always necessarily kind of embedded in the organization's so maybe share a little bit about you recent empty nester maybe some of those answers. But a little bit about you, Marcy, and then we'll jump into our conversation for the day. leadership. And strategist.
Marcy Shankman 1:26
Yes, well, so I'll leave this to you to kind of ponder, one of the reasons you probably tripped on the title is because we made it up, just like we made up the role. So there's a lot to uncover and dig into with that. The life before this adventure was another kind of adventure. So I have spent the entirety of my career somehow in a space that I call leadership and organizational development. I was convinced coming out of undergraduate that my life was going to be on the college campus. So I was on the higher education track, and particularly focused on Student Affairs. Yeah, so did my graduate work, both the masters and the PhD. in that arena, I had some work experience built in there in a couple of different institutions. Until Actually, I moved to Cleveland, which is where I am. And it was an accidental move of sorts. Because I was the trailing spouse a second time, which was not the plan, it was supposed to alternate, because I'm a partner of another professional, who honestly was very fine with us alternating choices of destination, except that when push came to shove, he got two picks in a row. And I was a little salty about that.
Scott Allen 2:55
And you're in Cleveland!
Marcy Shankman 2:56
and I'm in Cleveland, 20 years later, actually, because it was my choice, I realized, we are in a community that we could raise our children in that I could have my career evolve. Although at the time, I had no idea I was going to be where I am today. So since I've been in Cleveland, I have run my own consulting practice, I have taught in an adjunct role at a number of area universities and colleges, I have explored the nonprofit sector in management and leadership role. And now I'm in the public sector, as an embedded coach and organizational development strategist and leadership strategist, serving the CEO or the superintendent of the Cleveland Public School System.
Scott Allen 3:45
So Marcy, in this most recent role, what are some themes that you're seeing what's been standing out for you? As it relates to the work that you're doing? What observations you have?
Marcy Shankman 3:57
Wow, how much time do we have?
Scott Allen 3:59
Long-form, we're gonna go to long-form today, four hours?
Marcy Shankman 4:04
Oh, boy. Okay, well hang on, because I could actually fill it with the number of lessons learned observations, self-reflective journeys, and challenges. I have to tell you, Scott, Never did I imagined that this role would mean as much as it has meant, I have called it the "grand experiment." And actually, my boss and I often refer to the work as being a live experiment. Because as I said, the title is a made-up title, the role is a one of a kind role. My boss is very well established in the K-12 world and to the best of his knowledge, there is no other system that holds a position, like the one that I hold, and to the best of my knowledge in the leadership development world. I don't know anyone who has this particular role. So I have this unique blend of being that embedded internal coach, and working with two layers of leadership at the district. What I will tell you is one of my overarching themes is I've become even more skeptical of coaches who are not embedded. And this is not a slight against anyone's ability, it is entirely based on what I believe to be the inherent challenges of trying to help people improve their performance, without you having the native view, if you will, because I am embedded in the organization, I can help people connect the dots in a transparent and obvious way, rather than just relying on their memory of what happened two or three weeks ago when we last met. Yeah, I would argue another theme that rises to the top of my mind is there is actually nothing harder than behavior change.
Scott Allen 6:00
Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, well, you can go to the work of (Robert) Kegan, which is really fun work with the Immunity to Change work that they did. And we'll put that in the show notes for listeners. But I think what was the statistic at the beginning of that, that, basically, you know, seriously at-risk heart patients, when told to stop drinking, start getting exercise, quit smoking, eat better, you know, one in seven can actually make the behavior change. Or the other statistic that always just blew my mind was that when you have seriously at-risk patients who've been described to statin right to anti-stroke medicine, and you ask them as they leave the doctor's office, what's the percentage, you're going to be taking this prescription as prescribed a year from now? You know, people say 100%, of course, I'm going to, but when you go back to them, it's in the 50s of people who are actually taking the medication as prescribed. So I couldn't agree. I mean, if life and death is in balance, and we can't change our behaviors? Have you read Atomic Habits? A couple of people have mentioned this to me recently.
Marcy Shankman 7:10
Yes.
Scott Allen 7:11
Is it good?
Marcy Shankman 7:12
So there is this phenomenal body of work that I wanted to bring up and share with you and your listeners around habits? Yeah. So there are three authors who actually I think would be fascinating to have in a panel conversation. So Atomic Habits is written by James Clear. Yeah, Charles Duhigg, wrote about tiny habits, I believe. And then there's one other author who, of course, I'm not going to remember now. But their focus is the exact same construct, which is, what is the smallest possible step that you can take towards a new behavior that is so small that you can't fail? So Arianna Huffington writes about this in Thrive, which is her new organization, and she calls them micro steps? So however you want to describe them, it is absolutely brilliant work that is so applicable to leadership, education, training, and development, whatever level you're taking this work at? For a coach, it's particularly relevant content, because it gets at not just what are the individual decisions to make? It's also about what are the environmental cues that are necessary that will support you to engage in that new behavior? And what are the social cues that will help you? So ironically, believe it or not, so much of this habit formation, content relates exactly to what you and I wrote about in terms of what's necessary with Emotionally Intelligent Leadership, you've got to be conscious of yourself, you've got to be conscious of others, and you've got to be conscious of the context. So I've been fascinated at how I did not intend to have our work actually play a central focus in the work that I do in my current role. And yet, it's almost like I can't get away from it. So it must mean we wrote some good stuff.
Scott Allen 9:19
So like, we had to give a shout out to Fred Fiedler on that one, too, right?
Marcy Shankman 9:23
We do. We do. And we have to give a shout out to our partners. So the work that we did with Paige Haber-Curran.
Scott Allen 9:30
Yes.
Marcy Shankman 9:30
And Tina Facca. And some of the others Rosanna Miguel, some of the others who we've partnered with over the years. You know, I've I just continue to believe that this construct of emotional intelligence, this framework, ends up playing out in lots of different ways. Because I actually am just finishing up another kind of campaign of learning. I don't know how best to describe it. It's not quite a journey.
Scott Allen 9:59
You said yes, is what happened.
Marcy Shankman 10:02
Exactly, exactly. But it's this other arena of working where sorry of learning where the focus is on neuroscience. And I continue to come back to the neuroscience of leadership, the neuroscience of behavior change, the neuroscience of social dynamics. And guess what? Emotional intelligence plays a key role in that dynamic, when we look at, what do we do? And how do we know ourselves from a neuroscientific standpoint?
Scott Allen 10:32
Wow. So see more about that? Say more about that? What have you been exploring that stood out to you there? And then we need to come back to why being embedded is better? And I understand. Okay, we'll come back to that. But we're taking a take a look detour.
Marcy Shankman 10:47
So the little detour into neuroscience is dangerous because there is so much current research and new scholarship, and frankly, new ideas about how do we learn as adults? How do we help adults develop? That's entirely based on what we're learning about the brain? The folks at the NeuroLeadership Institute, so maybe that can go in the session notes as well, yeah, I think are doing cutting edge work on how we understand the ways in which our brain, our basic neurochemistry and neurobiology impacts, how we know ourselves, how we interact with others, how we choose to behave or don't behave, has a lot to do with the habits. So it's like these different insights, I would say, I'm discovering, continue to reinforce one another.
Scott Allen 11:42
And then you are embedded with these individuals, and you get to observe, you get to see you get to watch, right? And so, so from that perspective, you get to observe some of these habits, you get to observe some of these behaviors consistently over time. Is that accurate?
Marcy Shankman 12:00
That is, that is correct. And ironically, or maybe deliberately, I don't know, if you want to ascribe that much credit to how I do the work. What I am experiencing is a reinforcement of what I'm reading in Atomic Habits, or Tiny Habits, or the NeuroLeadership Institute's work on how do we encourage behavior in the leadership space, because I notice and observe probably three-quarters of my time at work. And I actually am only actively speaking and engaging for about 25% of my time. Well, that's part of why I think coaching, when you're not embedded is really limited, versus when you are embedded. And you can see, so what are the cues that people are picking up on that are triggering certain kinds of behaviors? What are the patterns that are occurring in the organization's life, that are reinforcing certain modes, certain mental modes, or certain mental models? Because that's the inherent programming, if you will, that we experience from our environment that drives behavior. And we're not conscious of it. So it's like Daniel Kahneman's work on why our brains are geared towards efficiency. And bias helps us understand that. So much of what we do in the workplace is us operating in autopilot, which often keeps us from being productive and making constructive decisions because instead, we're guided by our brains desire for efficiency, which means we're relying on these biases. And if you are external to an organization, you don't get to see that in play.
Scott Allen 14:36
Yeah. Yeah, you're hearing people's distorted reflections of what happened. Myself included, right?
Marcy Shankman 15:02
Okay. So what's interesting, Scott is that we are all distorted in our reflections. So engaged in a conversation with someone and I are just calling up the basic essence of memory. They're not calling up a transcript. . So our brain, our bias, even in the recall, yeah. Yeah. So what? So what that means for me, to be honest with you is in my work, it is especially important that I am observing what is happening and what's causing someone to act in a certain way. But I can't necessarily be the one who says cause and effect, I have to be able to help that person recall so that they can identify whether they understand their triggers. Does that make sense?
Scott Allen 16:01
It does, it does. And then I imagine part of your job is just not necessarily placing judgment on that, but just helping them explore and helping them, you know, determine whether or not that was useful or functional at that moment, is that accurate? It is especially accurate because the last thing that I can afford to do is be judgmental,
Marcy Shankman 16:22
Or even offer my own interpretation. And here's why. I am asked to coach and in-tact team, both as individuals and as a collective. So imagine if I am coaching you, to help you drive to that highest level of performance, I'm also coaching your colleague who's appear to that person's highest level of performance. And the two of you dramatically disagree about something. If I put myself in the middle of that debate, then I'm actually not coaching. I'm arbitrating. Or I'm mediating. Instead, I have to really focus on what am I doing to build your capacity to give your position to help you influence at the same time as I'm trying to help another person who's in direct conflict with you be at their highest capacity so that they can influence and by the way, I have to hold back on my own point of view or opinion because it really just does not matter. It's not up to me.
Scott Allen 17:30
So you so you're refraining from interjecting any opinion whatsoever. That's interesting. And that's going to be hard.
Marcy Shankman 17:38
It is incredibly hard. Because for those people who know me, and if you don't know me, I basically have an opinion about everything. So it's taught me a lot about self-management. And how do I hold back on sharing an interpretation? Even when I think the interpretation is useful? I am learning. So you asked me at the beginning of this conversation, what stands out? I am learning that when I hold back from interpretation, and instead really anchor in sharing observations, and sharing, if you will, in the Carl Rogers approach to therapy, a mirror for that person to look at themselves, the better forms of coaching that I can engage in are inquiry and reflection. And I mean, not my own reflection, but how do I reflect to that person? As if they're looking in a mirror? And asking them for their interpretation?
Scott Allen 18:37
Well, and what else, what else is standing out for you? I mean, those are two very powerful, you know, kind of the notion of habits, but then also the notion of the, you know, the mirror. And those are two very, very powerful observations Marcy, this is really, really cool. What else? What else stands out for you? or What else have you been practicing or learning or observing yourself?
Marcy Shankman 19:03
So I would say to others, and remote Remember I said we could talk for four hours. So I'm trying really hard to discern from this range of learnings because I feel like I've been on a four and a half year learning journey that is very steep still. One is kind of a short observation. self-reflection. One is more theoretical and, and broader. So the short observation that's about what I've discovered for myself, is that I have a whole lot of books and I love learning through books, and I love learning through the reading process. And not one of them actually, is totally correct. So I have spent the three-plus years initially, so I've been in this job for four and a half years. I would say I spent the first three years continuously poking holes into whatever I was reading, not because I was looking to poke holes into it, but because they didn't stand up against reality. So this has encouraged me to continue to be an integrationist. Yeah, someone who's looking for multiple points of view on the same topic. So I can pick and choose, you're sure there's a technical term for the way that I approach my work. I've been called an iconoclast, when it comes to how I do this work, no single author has the answer to the $64,000 question of how do we get people to perform at their highest and best capacity. That encourages me to keep reading. Yeah, it also is incredibly frustrating, because I just want someone to give me the answer. And it just does not exist. It's not that simple.
Scott Allen 20:51
Yeah, I mean, it's about making those interpretations from different perspectives. I think of Ed O'Malley's work at the Kansas Leadership Center, where they're working, you know, they they're, they're training people to make multiple interpretations of an incident or of an issue. And they're there often isn't one singular, perspective.
Marcy Shankman 21:18
It's design thinking in action. You're constantly prototyping, constantly experimenting. So this word experiment comes into my vocabulary and into my consciousness, easily on a weekly basis. I am constantly running experiments. Yep. And I am learning that the more often that I'm wrong, the better the work becomes. Because what I've discovered is that when I'm coaching, and when I'm working with a group, if I can push the boundaries, or I can get people to think outside of their comfort zones, and say, "no, that's not right." They dig in deeper on the work. Whereas when I get it, right, they aren't as bought in, and it's not as sticky. So I think there's something more there to uncover. The other observation I was going to share with you about what else have I learned? What else do I see is that organizational change, and changing an organization's culture, which has been a primary interest of mine, literally, since I was an undergraduate, continues to be one of the most fascinating and difficult challenges to wrap your arms around. It is ongoing, it happens at many levels of the system. Are you familiar with levels of the system from Gestalt?
Scott Allen 22:44
Not from Gestalt? I'm familiar with systems theory, but let's go into it levels of systems.
Marcy Shankman 22:50
So from Gestalt, we know, there are multiple levels in a system - individual, team organizational, and in there are some nuances in that listing. What what I appreciate about that point of view is that when you're trying to change an organization's culture, which I would argue lots of people in leadership positions are committed to doing. The work not only takes a long time, not only is it complex and complicated, and those are not the same things. It also has to occur at all levels of the system. So we can't approach organizational change just at the organization level, you can't approach organizational change at the individual level, you have to approach it at all levels, including the broader system level. So part of my job is about supporting the CEO in the organizational change that he is trying to bring about. He's been at it for the better part of eight or 10 years. I'm sort of coming in halfway through it his tenure if you will. We're now four and a half years in, and I would argue we're just beginning to scratch the surface. That's a long haul...about changing an organization's culture.
Scott Allen 24:10
Well, I don't want you to speak for him, but I'm gonna ask you to. So what is his mindset is, is it literally just kind of chipping away? And that's good. We're moving in the right direction. And this takes a long time, or is it frustration or is it everything right? I mean, it's Yeah, yes, you're right. Yes. Yeah. Everything.
Marcy Shankman 24:33
I I would not speak for him. He can speak very well for himself. And I think actually, he could be a fascinating guest for you one day. I would argue that as I become a part of the process, so I am now a part of this process, we talk about being "urgently persistent," and to appreciate that culture change takes us Last time, and we have to celebrate the little big wins. And that there are big little wins.
Scott Allen 25:07
Say that? That again? Yep.
Marcy Shankman 25:10
Yep. So we have to celebrate the little big wins. And there are big little wins. And learning to differentiate between the two is really important. So how do we make the implicit explicit around culture change?
Scott Allen 25:26
Yeah. Marcy, you are dropping some really cool ways of thinking here. In a very, very compact period of time. Big little wins and little big wins. And
Marcy Shankman 25:40
yeah, play with that one for a while.
Scott Allen 25:42
urgently...
Marcy Shankman 25:42
It's good,
Scott Allen 25:43
"urgently persistent." Is that what you were using? I love it. Yep. Love it. Yep. It's much, much better than "fast follower." I think it's much better than that.
Marcy Shankman 25:53
Yeah, yeah. I'm not a big fan of "fast follower." That's a new one for me. Actually. No, thanks.
Scott Allen 25:59
Urgently Persistent. I love it.
Marcy Shankman 26:01
Yep. Yeah. So
Scott Allen 26:05
I know you've been doing some work on an edited volume around evaluation. And would love to get just a couple of insights there. I'm switching gears on you here. But as you think about evaluating, I mean, even your own work. In this in this, this very, very longitudinal just starting to scratch the surface. What are you learning about evaluation, as you've been writing about that with Ralph? Or my guess is really what your writing, but you're gonna be writing a little bit, I'm sure. In the foreword, and such.
Marcy Shankman 26:39
We are we are. So this is the new volume in the New Directions and Student Leadership series. We are anticipating publication this spring, actually, which is super exciting. We've been at it for about 18 months with a phenomenal cohort of authors. Looking at leadership assessments and inventories. How do we use them effectively and ethically? I would share a couple of high-level observations and then I want to leave it to our listeners to check out the book. You can't give it all away. One is that, because leadership is so difficult to define, and in one of your earlier sessions, you talked about the priority that we have to place on "Can we just at least define leadership when we're talking about leadership?" I think you were quoting Kellerman perhaps...
Scott Allen 27:41
Yeah, is she wants to professionalize, you know, make it a profession, or at least that's what she's written about. And she has some really interesting ways of thinking about it. But I don't know that it can ever be. I think I think what it's going to end up being is forms of martial arts. There's karate, which is a martial art, but there's also Jiu-Jitsu, which is a martial art when and then there's different definitely there's judo. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So the reason I like it is, at least in some ways, knowing that we haven't "solved" quote, unquote, but we've situated ourselves because too often people don't situate themselves. Right. And so I think there's an opportunity there. But yeah,
Marcy Shankman 28:25
I agree. And I think it connects directly with what we are writing about in this book, and what our authors are writing about, which is when we asked to measure leadership because that's really what an assessment or an inventory does, how do we measure leadership? We have to understand what we're measuring, and why we're measuring it. And what's the purpose of measuring it? So we are trying to drive in our book towards a couple of high-level conclusions. One is, you have to know what you're driving for in order to assess it. So what are the objectives of leadership you're looking for in terms of performance? What are the desired outcomes of learning? And therefore what tool is going to get you there? We really are trying to make our industry smarter about how do we use these tools to advance the learning to build greater self-awareness and to deepen one's practice in leadership?
Scott Allen 29:33
Yeah. Yep.
Marcy Shankman 29:37
Is that enough of a summary for the...
Scott Allen 29:39
that's good? That's good. And there's a word in there that I love, which is practice and you had mentioned earlier in our discussion, how a lot of times people are on autopilot when they're working through the day. They don't, they don't perceive or they don't experience that those eight or 10 hours as an opportunity to practice. To engage in the activity of leading others, to run experiments to try to work against some of their defaults, potentially, and to be present, and really, truly engaged in this, this, this activity that's happening around us. And so that's why the Thinking Fast and Slow the economy and work is so fascinating. cognitive biases are such an incredible conversation. That's a whole realm of literature that's I find really intriguing. And you've made me think about really pursuing this, these tiny habits and atomic habits? Are they going atomic? Really big? Or atomic? Really small?
Marcy Shankman 30:46
Really small? Yeah. Versus atomic things. Exactly. Exactly. And I'm telling you, there's one more and I'm just kicking myself, really. It's another, it's another, I'm gonna write that book. But there's another really tiny habit.
Scott Allen 31:04
It would be like eight-minute abs, you know, there was 10 minutes. I'm ready. I love it.
Marcy Shankman 31:10
Well, Scott, you raised such a great point about what happens during the course of the day. And I don't want to sound like a broken record. But we talked in Emotionally Intelligent Leadership about consciousness. And now people are talking very explicitly about intentionality. And I can see in my workspace when someone is being intentional in what they're trying to do. And when they're taking the coaching opportunity as an opportunity to develop themselves towards an intentional outcome. There's a higher quality return on their effort, and on their time, and on their reflection. And on their practice. Yes, what I, frankly get frustrated by and I get frustrated by a lot this job is equal parts, satisfaction, and frustration. What I get frustrated by is the complacency that people approach their work with, particularly those who have tremendous opportunities to make a difference in other people's lives. When people are complacent about that and dismissive of the power that they hold, and either misuse or abuse, the power because of a lack of intentionality. I find myself getting placed, right? Oh, absolutely.
Scott Allen 32:33
The potential energy that could right used...
Marcy Shankman 32:36
Right, and I see it. Right. I see it every day, because of this autopilot that people kick into. I will also share with you what the pandemic has taught, is that when we are under stress, and when we are anxious, which is what's happening in this VUCA world, that the pandemic has brought. People are not at their best, so they revert to their defaults. I think in many respects, it's about survival. Yeah. So I'm, I'm particularly confronted right now with how do I help individuals and teams and frankly, a system that is under tremendous threat? I'm speaking of the public schools. How do I help the decision-makers, the power holders negotiate between the personal stress they're feeling with the professional stress that they're feeling with their sense of responsibility and obligation to do right by the community? It's a really complicated place to be and very difficult to navigate.
Scott Allen 33:44
Yeah. Very complex adaptive system.
Marcy Shankman 33:47
Right. Absolutely. And that's a place where I have to say, thank goodness for Heifetz and Linskey and their work on adaptive leadership. And again, I find their work as instructive on the one hand and limited on the other. So it means that, well, they don't have and they just, they don't have all the answers. Exactly. And when you put their work to the test of practically applying it, just like we put anyone's work to the test, and we are just included everyone's thinking has to bear out in reality, and we realize that humans and human systems are complex and unpredictable, and ambiguous. And so as neat as tidy as a model may be or a framework or a theory or a strategy. When you put it into practice. It doesn't always hold water. Yeah. It's instructive. It is insightful. It can be serving as a guide. It is not 100% applicable.
Scott Allen 34:58
Well, I'm going to go back for a moment. To a couple of things, I'm going to go back to psychology first. And then we should kind of closeout here Marcy. Psychology, I mean, that's it's almost like saying, well, the work of Carl Rogers, his approach to therapy will always work. It won't. It's a tool. And Gestalt is a tool and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is a tool. And any number of approaches are a tool. It's like saying, "Well, I'm getting in a fight, karate will always work." No, it won't. Someone might come at you with something different martial art that would, that would render you limited. So I love what you said, in the, you know, the exploration of these different lenses, or different perspectives, or different tools that can help us better approach and better think through what we're confronting. Because all of those whether it's design thinking or the work of Heifetz and Linsky, they're different approaches that have their time and place or elements of them have a time in place. Not necessarily always, right, because I agree, you know, you want to create something interesting. Just add humans. It's gonna go in it, you know, it's gonna go 1000 different ways.
Marcy Shankman 36:14
Right, right. I was gonna say just add one human. Then if you add another, you've got exponential, and then you add another, and I don't know what the next word is. Yes, because
Scott Allen 36:24
I am enough a case study myself, Just ask Jess.
Marcy Shankman 36:31
Yeah, aren't we all?
Scott Allen 36:33
Mercy, you've shared some really nice, nice things that I can put in the show notes as far as you know, resources for people to explore. But is there anything else that you've been reading or listening to or watching that may or may not have anything to do with leadership? But what have you been, what have you been consuming lately?
Marcy Shankman 36:55
So I have to say that one of my mental health steps during the pandemic has been to walk and spend more time outside because I need fresh air I need physical activity. My normal outlets are not available to me. So I have been listening to different podcasts. I have to say that the one that has taken me most by surprise has been The Happiness Lab. And particularly her, Laurie Santos is the faculty member from Yale who teaches the happiness course that went gangbusters on MOOC, or one of those, you know, open course open source systems. But her particular series on the ancients, I have particularly enjoyed so what she has done is looked at our ancient thinkers, the philosophers, and connected their observations and their ways of thinking and knowing to what we're facing today. I do not have a classics background. I have virtually no understanding of Greek mythology or Roman figures. Like none of that. Yeah. So I have found that series within the happiness lab to be so provocative, and so powerful. The problem with a podcast as you can't take notes if you're out walking, so then I got to come back home and jot down all my thoughts and try and rewind the proverbial tape, rewind the podcasts...Yeah, exactly. And I don't even know how to pronounce the people's names. So that's, I enjoyed that. Well, I
Scott Allen 38:41
will put that in. Yeah, put that in for sure. You know, it's much fun to catch up. We haven't caught up in too long, obviously. But so much fun to hear about what you're thinking about and what you're learning Marcy, because my work with you has always been incredibly enjoyable. We've always had so much fun exploring together, challenging one another. You know, you sending me a little notes of yo, hey, check out this person. I mean, I love that because I think it's it's wonderful to have that community where we can explore and that's the beautiful thing about this topic. And that's the challenge like we've explored this topic. So
Marcy Shankman 39:25
I agree.
Scott Allen 39:26
Dr. Shankman, thank you so much for being here. We appreciate it.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai