Dr. Eliane Ubalijoro is the Deputy Executive Director (Programmes) of GODAN Secretariat and a Professor of Practice for Public-Private Sector Partnerships at McGill University. She is a member of the Supervisory Board of the Capitals Coalition, a member of the board of advisors for ShEquity, and an executive board member of Crop Trust. Dr. Ubalijoro is a member of Rwanda's National Science and Technology Council and a Fellow of the African Academy of Sciences. We met while serving on the board of the International Leadership Association.
Eliane Ubalijoro
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Dr. Eliane Ubalijoro is the Deputy Executive Director (Programmes) of GODAN Secretariat and a Professor of Practice for Public-Private Sector Partnerships at McGill University. She is a member of the Supervisory Board of the Capitals Coalition, a member of the board of advisors for ShEquity, and an executive board member of Crop Trust. Dr. Ubalijoro is a member of Rwanda's National Science and Technology Council and a Fellow of the African Academy of Sciences. We met while serving on the board of the International Leadership Association.
Eliane Ubalijoro
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Note: Voice to text transcriptions are about 90% accurate.
Scott Allen 0:03
Today on the podcast, I have Dr. Eliane Ubalijoro. And she is an incredible woman, serves on the board of the International leadership Association. She is a doctor of molecular genetics, which I can't wait to hear from that originally hails from Rwanda lives in Canada. Currently, she is a woman who has many different interests around STEM, leadership development, sustainability. I'm probably missing a bunch, Dr. Eliane, but is that why don't you tell us a little bit about you? What if I missed and all of that?
Eliane Ubalijoro 0:45
No, I think you've covered a lot. I mean, I'm definitely also interested in gender and how gender interacts with STEM and sustainability. But yes, I think leadership matters, leadership matters even more urgently, now that we are in this COVID era. And my background as a scientist, and my interest in leadership, I feel are intersecting right now in the world. because not a lot of people outside of the scientific field, realize that the fact that we're facing this COVID crisis is an environmental crisis. Because we are at a time in the planet where 60%, we face 60% extinction rate in terms of species around the world, and that most over 90% of the landmass of mammals in the world are humans, pets, and livestock. So if you think about it, less than 10%, is drafts, elephants, lions out there in the world. So we represent the largest population, for hosts for emerging diseases in the world.
Scott Allen 1:59
Wow.
Eliane Ubalijoro 2:00
Yeah. And so the more people realize that we need to keep biodiversity in the world so that humanity can thrive and that we realize it's not about health care in a country estate, but it's really about planetary health and how we're interconnected in it, the more we can really get out of this and really have a reset that changes how humanity relates to nature.
Scott Allen 2:25
So you, you just, I think that was a beautiful foundation from which we can explore. Before we started, I said, I have no clue where this is gonna go. And I'm excited. Okay, let's unpack a little bit of what you said, there's intersectionality, between your interest in the sciences and interest in sustainability and the welfare of our planet, with leadership. And talk more about how you see that Eliane. Because I think that's a beautiful perspective. How do you see those intersecting?
Eliane Ubalijoro 2:59
So we know, if we look at the climate crisis around the world, you have climate deniers and people who believe in climate, and the reality is the climate isn't a partisan issue. Climate is a scientific fact, that backs it, you know, if you're living, whether you're living in Miami, whether you're living in New York, whether you're living in Amsterdam, or Bangladesh, you can see that events are happening that are disturbing how you live, and how, you know, floods, things are happening in the world at an intensity that we haven't seen. And so that is just the reality we need to face. And I think we live in a world where issues that are scientifically based, are being categorized as issues that correspond to a certain political affiliation. And there's something fundamentally dangerous about that. Because there are human issues, and then there are partisan issues. And some things should not be partisan issues. And I think that's a really important distinction. And it's also a huge issue we're facing right now is how do we take care of humanity? And how do we also look at what our personal values are the values we'd like governments to have corporations to have? And make sure that our desires are not conflicting with the welfare of humanity and the planet.
Scott Allen 4:31
Yeah. Well, and they seem to be, right?
Eliane Ubalijoro 4:34
Yes.
Scott Allen 4:36
I just watched a fascinating documentary on the BBC, it was David Attenborough. I don't know if you've watched that on Netflix. If you've seen it.
Eliane Ubalijoro 4:44
I haven't seen it. You're the third person who says I need to watch it including my husband.
Scott Allen 4:50
Please do please do. We have loved we have my family. We have loved watching his work over the years you know, and he's, of course, got that voice that is so beautiful, so wonderful. And this episode, it literally kind of concerned our children. It really got to them because we've watched the very optimistic documentaries that have existed. And there's another one that's that Will Smith did call one strange planet, which is beautiful. It's wonderful. But it shifts are occurring. The science would back that. And to your point, it's not a political issue. It's an issue facing humanity. And what do we do to solve for that, but there seems to be a fundamental leadership challenge embedded in that because the people trying to solve for that, in some ways are losing the influence battle, so to speak, just like the influence battle that epidemiologists would have kind of wanted to communicate, you know, "the process of influencing others towards a common vision," - wear a mask, you know, that's politicized. It's occurring to various degrees, at least here in the United States, for sure, as we exponentially increase in cases and deaths now, it's fascinating. And scientists by nature aren't really thinking about how to influence they're looking for objective facts. So it's almost counterintuitive in some ways for them. They think that logic should just make the case and we're humans.
Eliane Ubalijoro 6:34
And this is where I think science meeting indigenous wisdom is really important. Indigenous wisdom really was, has always been based on storytelling, what is our capacity to sell stories, that speaks to our minds, our hearts, and our souls? And I think what is needed in the 21st century is for scientists to really engage in speaking at those three levels. And it's not taught in programs in science, but it's
Scott Allen 7:07
indigenous storytelling is not taught it wasn't in your genetics 101!!
Eliane Ubalijoro 7:12
It wasn't but you know, coming from Rwanda, I have memories of my childhood sitting on the ground, the evening's around a fire, and listening to an elder tell stories. Yeah, and those stories stayed with me, I may not remember the details of the stories, but how those stories make me feel are really important. Yes. And Maya Angelou says, you know, "we don't remember when we do not remember what people said, but we'll remember how they made us feel." And so as scientists, we have to really think about that, because of facts, people will glaze over facts. But if you tell the story of a person who's been through something, and has overcome that, or and had to find a creative way, you know, owning their hero or heroines journey in terms of moving forward, that stays with us, that speaks to us. And it also speaks to the yearning in the world right now. If you look at the highest-grossing movies around the world. They're all about hero's journeys. Yeah. And there are more and more of these big blockbuster hero's journey, movies coming out because we are yearning to own our personal hero's journeys. And we don't know how to do that. And what often happens is when we feel that we don't have the power to do that, we will, we will project that onto others and hope that they can lead for us. And that's a bit of the danger we face today. Because when we project that, then we don't feel like we really have power on the planet to change things, but we do we definitely do. And I think what we need today is citizen power - citizens around the world realizing that everything they do matters, how they vote matters, whether they vote or not matters, and that every single thing we do the choices of what we buy the industries with support, all of it matters and all of it is interconnected.
Scott Allen 7:14
Can we stick to this storytelling for a little bit Eliane? Talk more about that talk more about how storytelling could, in some ways, transform mindsets? Because I think it's a powerful insight. I really do. Because we have data that at least the attempts that have been made so far, have not necessarily taken root. Right. I was mentioning the documentary with David Attenborough that we watched and we watched the Greta Thunberg documentary (I am Greta) the other night as well. And that then again, kind of worried our children more, but it's important for them to be aware of those issues and it's important for them to see a young woman taking a stand and trying to make a difference in the world. But talk more about stories and talk more about how you think stories could shape and shift mindsets. And change the narrative a little bit. I think it's a fascinating insight.
Eliane Ubalijoro 10:11
So if I think of Wangari Maathai who was a Kenyan Nobel laureate, who won the Peace Prize for, for promoting tree planting something as simple as planting trees, and her movement that the green belt movement has, I mean, tucan became a social movement beyond Kenya and allowed planting of over a billion trees around the world. And how she started out is she just, she had memories of her childhood, where river streams were clear, where they were these big trees, where people could sit in the shade and tell stories. Yeah. And as those trees were being cut down, erosion was happening, flooding was happening, how communities interacted, was changing, the temperatures were rising around the places where she lived, and that was influencing the rates of diseases like malaria. And so what she did is she really went from, how do we tell the stories of where we come from, realize that where we are has changed and that our environment has changed. And that we can just find women coming together and planting trees together, we can work on these issues of erosion around flooding, of soils, being able to hold more water so we can overcome resilience when there are floods, or when there's not enough water, that there's water enough in the soils to keep the ground cover green and beautiful and trees thriving and having places in the shade where we can sit and talk. And so connecting what we do with the stories that narrate our lives is really important. And I think for scientists, that capacity to do that is really important. There's a book that just came out in September called All We Can Save, which is a compilation of essays of women, mostly in the US of origins, just stories about how their personal lives have been impacted by climate change, or how their work and social change the resistance they face. But it's stories about how they're going about their days, what they're facing. So it's not just about giving numbers, it's about really concretely saying, "How are different populations affected?" Why is it the most vulnerable populations are often poor, and of color in terms of how cities are designed around the areas that are most susceptible, often what we have is you can have wetlands, wetlands are areas that normally are sponges, so they can hold a lot of water if there are really heavy rains, and, and when they're on heavy rains, they can allow water to flow to the other areas. And so but often what we've done is we've eliminated these wetlands, and we've moved people in those areas, and often the people who live there are poor. And so if we look at New Orleans, what happens is, you know, after the terrible events that happened there, the black population, I think halved because people are never able to go back to the areas they live because they were places where the ecosystem was really fragile. And there were immense difficulties and figuring out how do we actually reclaim those areas for long-term resilience? And so it's when we tap stories, then people like, Oh, this is how this affects other people, or this is how it affects me. And so those are the things that really matter. And if we think about, you know, when Sandy hit the West, the East Coast, people were like, Oh, this is true, you can get flooding happening and coming to Manhattan, this could get worse. And so that's when people that that imagery that the meeting of all our senses and science come together. And we realize that this isn't about politics, this is about humanity and survival.
Scott Allen 14:21
I love what you just said that was beautiful. So the meeting of all of our senses and science. Yes, that might be the name of the episode. It's also interesting how I was not familiar with that story. The story of I can't even recall her name right now. Can you say it again?
Eliane Ubalijoro 14:42
Wangari Maathai
Scott Allen 14:44
Okay, I'm gonna put her story in the show notes so our listeners can find that but I also love the framing. There's and again your I agree we should save the rainforest. Yes, for sure. But has a certain political connotation to it? "Oh, the left-leaning," but if it's, "Hey, let's go plant trees!" You know, a lot of people are like, no, you're a liberal. You're a conservative. No. And so you're shifting, you're shifting and doing good in the world and helping and a billion trees. Was it? Yeah. billion. Yes. Yeah. So interesting. It and but that's the type of thinking, you know, there is there's an interesting statement that was made. And I don't know, it may have been a psychiatrist. But as soon as, at least in the States, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this early on. As soon as it was framed as well, if you wear a mask, you protect others. It's a very different framing, than wearing a mask and protecting yourself. And it's very interesting that that subtle difference of what is going to drive human behavior. And it's, it's absolutely fascinating, my family was in a national park, probably mid-October. And I was absolutely amazed at the number of people who were not wearing masks on these trails, huffing and puffing up steep inclines. And the individuals are not able to consider others and put on a mask. And so my family has on the mask, and we're sweating, and you know it, and it just blew me away. But how these things are framed, and to the point of what you just said, of the stories that are being told and how this has been communicated? And how we, in all reality shape and shift the hearts and minds of others. incredibly difficult work.
Eliane Ubalijoro 16:49
In it, it's difficult to work, but it's the most important work. So part of it, I realize is also realizing that we don't all share the same worldviews. And so some people may be more individualistic. And some people may believe in protecting the community and for the people protecting communities saying "wear masks to protect others may be good." But for the people who actually are individualistic, you need to tell them "wear masks to protect yourself." Yes. And so and so it's working with what are the narratives that work and i think in storytelling, there's the trickster, the trickster, is always trying to figure out how to bring humor, to our idiosyncrasies. And it's really important because the trickster has a sense of what it is, our values are, and we work with our values to show us where we hold contradictions and do it in a gentle way that allows us to laugh at ourselves, about the resistance or violence that a political debate would bring on. And this is also one of the archetypes that I think scientists need to come up with today and work with. And I think of the technology economist, historian, Carlota Perez. And so she has studied how innovation has evolved over centuries. And one of the things she says is right now we're in the fourth industrial revolution of digitalization and this virtual world that we're all really happy to be able to access, for many of us to keep working. And, and what she says is next, the fifth industrial revolution will be green. And it's and what she says it's not about fear-mongering around this is the end of the world is how do we make green sexy? How do we get aspirational? How do we tell stories that make people want to associate green with the most beautiful, luxurious lifestyle? Having less, but better quality? Yes. And so part of it is and that can go against the rational mind, because the rational mind is like, why should I appeal to that part of you that wants the dream? And but if you think about it, who doesn't know, Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech, should they not know the whole, but you know, this, how that resonates. And so part of it is touching the primal parts of us as a human is really important. And, also the reality that the rational brain doesn't resonate at the same level as compassion or love. And so I can tell my child, okay, here's what I want you to do for rational reasons. Okay, or I can say, you know, we're a family, we love each other, and we take care of each other. And so you cleaning your room is part of you, showing me that you care because of what I do for you and what you can do for me, so reciprocity. And so then I'm talking at a heart level, I could say, I need you to clean your room because I want to limit microbial growth on your desk.
Scott Allen 19:58
microbial growth!
Eliane Ubalijoro 20:00
But that isn't gonna work! And so so this is the real importance we have today of what is it, that certain leaders who were nationalistic, and who are having these powerful narratives that are capturing people, because they are using storytelling, you're not using it in the ways that I would like them to do in terms of increasing our interconnectedness and our capacity to vision and have action towards more sustainability in the world. But they're capturing minds.
Scott Allen 20:37
Yes, yes. And I'm reminded of John Kotter, who had a book called the Heart of Change. And in that book, there was a passage that always kind of stuck stood with me, which was "the single most important message this book is very simple. People change what they do less because they're given analysis that shifts their thinking, then, because they're showing a truth that influences their feelings." And that goes, that's counterintuitive. For a science scientist. it's counterintuitive because I've given you the facts, I've given you the data now do the right thing, versus kind of cotters perspective on that topic. And, and I agree with you, I think some individuals are incredible at weaving a storyline. And whole media outlets are incredible at weaving a storyline in some cases on both sides. Right.? And kind of picking and choosing elements that communicate that narrative. But I'm wondering, does the whole premise Eliane almost go against scientific inquiry? Do you come across scientists who think "why should I No, go try and sell this? That's not my role? And that's not science?"
Eliane Ubalijoro 21:55
Well, here's the thing, I think I think part of it is how we see our roles. There's a difference between I'm going to go out to sell this, yeah, we're going to go out to educate people, empower people, and influence people to embrace science. Yeah. And so I think it's really important. And this is the thing that about mindset and worldviews is it's important to work of scientists in ways that they don't feel that they're selling because it's not about selling. You know, it's about how does the hard work that they do have greater reach? Who doesn't want to have greater reach? And so it's really important, and it comes down to do we want to have transactional relationships with people have transformational relationships? And this is where, you know, you were talking about John Kotter. And that's why there's something amazing about his work and leadership, and his definition of the differentiation between management and leadership, where he says management is, you know, controlling systems and things. And leadership is about imagining designing new systems.
Scott Allen 23:05
Yeah. Yep.
Eliane Ubalijoro 23:06
And for me, coming from a, you know, a country in Africa, that is one of the smallest, you know, and fragile post-conflict countries in the world, is we have to imagine everything. So what we're looking for aren't managers, we're looking for leaders that have the capacity to dream and to execute their dreams into reality. And so that is all about leadership and transformation. And, you know, back to John Kotter, in his change a series of books, the last one was, was the on the iceberg and the colonies. I think were of penguins. Was it?
Scott Allen 23:47
Yes. Yes,
Eliane Ubalijoro 23:48
Yes, yes. And so what he realized is that was the third iteration of how do we bring about change, he was like, I need to go storytelling. So this is a Harvard professor, going from theory to here's a story of a colony of penguins. And they're faced with an iceberg melting, and how do they work as a community to figure out how to move forward? How do you identify champions? How do you tell stories in ways that people will be willing to let go of something because change is about loss? So managing loss is deeply emotional? And so this is where storytelling does something that science doesn't is it connects to our heart, and it has us aspiring for something that allows us to say, "Yes, I'm going to be losing some something, but I will gain something." And so this is where change is really critical. And that's why I think he went to storytelling. And that's why I think it's important for scientists to go there. And what's also really interesting for me, if you looked at most of the science, Nobel Prize winners, many of them were also artists. So I think of Barbara McClintock, who was a geneticist, and she discovered something that at the time we called jumping genes. She's a jazz musician. You know, and there's something about being able to be a scientist and have an artistic eye, that nurture, that allows us to take our science and shared with people in unexpected ways that really can transform the world.
Scott Allen 25:23
I love it. And you said something in there that reminded me of the Ron Heifetz quote from Leadership on the Line, it was, "habits, values and attitudes, even dysfunctional ones are a part of someone's identity." And so to change the way people see and do things, that's actually changing how they define themselves, which makes the work even that much more complex in so many ways, right? That, that if you had your way would this education be embedded in the work of scientists? Absolutely. Is it anywhere in the world Eliane? Is there some place that an epidemiologist could go right now to help frame how they communicate? How they, how they educate? How they influence others to make decisions in their best interest to live a more healthy life at this moment? Is there any place?
Well,so there are places I think of leadership programs that are out there specifically for scientists? And there are some that are, I think of the organization Future Earth and their leadership program for climate scientists. Okay. You know, it's part of how do you use your science in ways that allow you to empower influence, and bring about change? Yeah. So in Rwanda, where I'm from where the headquarters of the African Institute of Mathematical Sciences is based, so they've had a series of next Einstein fellows and I was the, I helped select the 2020 fellows and part of the fellows that win this prize, what they have, in terms of their benefits is learning how to communicate and tell stories,
Oh, nice.
Eliane Ubalijoro 27:13
Yes. And so I do think this is something that is happening to different fellowship programs, it would be great that it becomes embedded in university programs, I think, because of the concept of planetary health coming out and the transdisciplinary nature of planetary health. Yeah, there is a requirement for storytelling in terms of how we move that forward. And also, I think, if you think about it, more and more, you have conferences, where you have infographics where somebody actually just drawing the story of the conversation that's being told, and this is something that is really allowing us to have dialogue turn into art that influences us. And that's also images that have a capacity to bypass our barriers. And so part of becoming more powerful in terms of what we do requires engaging in storytelling and an art form. And, you know, Howard Gardner, he says, okay, you know, the three characteristics of extraordinary leaders or people is...
Scott Allen
Was that Leading Minds? Was that book? Are you going back to leading minds right now?
Eliane Ubalijoro 28:37
He says, the capacity to read well, reflection, Cultivating Daily Reflection. Capacity to Frame and Capacity to Leverage. Yeah. So it's what is our capacity to reflect on a really regular basis, whether it's meditation is running, walking nature, and cultivating any type of art form or prayer that allows us to ground and turn the inner eye and reflect inner so we think about the inner game of leadership. And then capacity, to frame, what is our capacity to tell stories, so we have followers? Yeah. And then leveraging is how do we actually have that become into social movements that bring about changes that we couldn't have imagined? And so those are things are, I think, are really important in terms of how do we look at extraordinary people and what they've done for good and how do we leverage that in what we're doing so that whatever we do can have that much more influence and allowing humanity to transform towards greater sustainability.
Scott Allen 29:42
Well, I love how you're thinking. I've never had this conversation before. And it's so much fun and it's reminding me, you know, Steve Kempster from Lancaster University, and I recorded a podcast with him and it was a little bit of a different topic, but it's, you know, how do you use capitalism against itself to transform, right. And so one of my favorite quotes is "every system is perfectly designed for the results that it achieves." "Every system is perfectly designed for the results that it achieves" that's been attributed to a bunch of different people. But we have data, here we are, here's the system, and we have certain results. And so what new type of thinking, what innovations? What other areas can we learn from to help shift movement to make progress to help us make decisions? That's in our best interest?
Eliane Ubalijoro 30:41
This is a really good point. And, you know, there's a concept that I find really interesting is the idea of stakeholder capitalism. You have capitalist systems that look at not only the stockholders but really the stakeholders. And that changes how we look at systems. And so it changes the type of data we're looking at. And so it changes how we design for success and measure success. Yeah. And so, in September, I joined the new board called the Capitalist Coalition and the capitalist coalition supervisory board. And so what the capitals coalition is all about is how do we count for nature? So Natural Capital, Social Capital, and Human Capital, and all that we do? Well, and how could we bring measurements around that? Whether it's government, nonprofit, for-profit, but in everything we do? Yep. How is everything we're doing having a positive effect on nature? How is it having a positive effect on people skills in terms of common human capital? How is it having a positive effect on terms of community building?
Scott Allen 31:53
Yes.
Eliane Ubalijoro 31:54
And if we so if we frame everything we do, to take all of that into account, that would transform how we go about all business, education, taken care of everything. And so so that's a concept that I find really interesting and holistic, and in a way again, going back to indigenous wisdom, because indigenous wisdom is about looking at the whole and how we are part of something bigger.
Scott Allen 32:25
Yeah. Yeah. Eliane what else are you thinking about right now? What are some of the thoughts that are keeping your mind? Well, not genetics, not genetics, this stuff, not that stuff. We just leadership stats, different podcasts, jumping genes, and such as the focus here, or whatever those were!
Eliane Ubalijoro 32:49
Well, it's something it's exciting. Part of it part of it. You know, there are two things that I'm thinking about a lot right now is how do we cultivate mindfulness at a collective level? And how does that influence our capacity to get through highly anxious times? Because we are in highly anxious times right now? And it's not about just me cultivating my mindfulness in my meditation, yoga, practice, journaling, but it's how do we collectively allow everybody to have the safety to nurture their souls in this world in ways that increase our collective vibration so that human consciousness is vibrating at a higher level? And so that I would say is something that I deeply believe in and committed to in terms of how do we elevate human consciousness. And also, because of this virtual world, we're in how does digitalization affect our capacity to elevate human consciousness? Or decrease human consciousness? And so part of it is, as we're looking at artificial intelligence, digitalization, and this network that is connecting us virtually around the world, the cloud that we're connecting with, but if you think about spirituality, and spirituality is in terms of what is it that connects all beings? What is it that makes me part of the universe, okay, and I'm going to go back to science just a little bit? But if you think about it, is we are all our atoms are from stardust.
Scott Allen 34:33
Yeah, yeah,
Eliane Ubalijoro 34:33
We are vibrating with the whole universe. And so if we really look at ourselves as this web, web of knowledge and possibility, universally, but then like, now we're creating this digital web. And so in a way this digital web is a reflection of the level of consciousness that we currently have. And so I think there's a real importance of saying how do we bring a cosmological worldview to the digital world so that it's not creating more bias, but actually creating more interconnectedness more interdependence more capacity to live in a space of non-judgment, of sharing more truth and science, and not conspiracies? How do we how do we do that? You know, just the small thing. I think it's great that Twitter now, you know, will sometimes write Okay, this is not something that is fact based, you know, certain things are happening. And I think the more people can have those little notes around that says, you know, this person said this, but this is not the facts as we know them. So part of it is, how are we bringing ethics and consciousness to the digital world in ways that really increase our capacity for working with truth. And I think that's a real issue for leaders around the world is, is as we evolve in the VUCA world, and all this turbulence, in order to really be able to have that vision, understanding, clarity, and agility (VUCA) we need to have true fun facts that we work with. And when we don't, well, we're not able to move forward in an agile way that transforms positively.
Scott Allen 36:33
That's a big that's, that's, that's big thinking. 60,000 feet my friend!. This is a collective consciousness. I love it. I love
Eliane Ubalijoro 36:46
It's important because we need to ground it.
Scott Allen 36:49
Yeah. And to you, to your point. I love how you're framing how do we use them, the digital space that we're living in and emerging into? And how do we use that for good? And how do we use that? Because to your point, Twitter can be a cesspool. In some ways, it's a reflection of some of the worst components of humanity. It's also a reflection of some of the best, and how do we elevate the truth and the best? And in some ways, you know, what, what is it that that attracts humans, and again, the marketers and in some cases, the media, they know how to frame it beautifully. It's like an Oreo for the mind, right? They know it's gonna get clicked, because and even if it's healthy or not, they know that it's gonna get clicked. And how do we combat some of that? Because framing the world in a different way, and to your point, helping us be more mindful, helping us see the good, and live in the good and know that we have agency and creating the good. I think that's another huge component that you mentioned earlier, that I can make a difference. I can't wait to explore the story of the Nobel Prize winner who has been a part of planting a billion trees. It's a beautiful story.
Eliane Ubalijoro 38:15
Thank you. Yes, no. And I had the privilege of meeting Wangari Maathai before she died and so I feel very connected to the work she did and that for me, it's how can we keep growing her legacy? And, and it's really important to all that I do. And, and, you know, I'll send you some references from different books that she wrote and books were written about her. And so like my daughter, you know, as a toddler, she had the bio for toddlers of Wangari Maathai, because that was important to me. Yeah. And, you know, part of it is, you know, both you and I are both parents. And so, how do we raise children in this world, so they become conscious, transformational leaders. So, my daughter, years ago, I was invited by a friend, Michelle Bach, who's a professor at the Kellogg Business School at Northwestern. And she was teaching with Deepak Chopra, The Soul of Leadership. And I remember at the time, my daughter was two, and I was a new mother and I was still struggling to take in all these roles, and I remember crying and Deepak's arms and he's like, Don't worry, just start meditating. Everything's gonna be okay. And I went home and I started meditating. And after a month, my husband's like, what's wrong with you, you're different. And what I did is I had my daughter started meditating, so for every age, so it's two minutes to three minutes at three, four minutes at four. And now she's 16. And so there's a groundedness she has around that and so for years, she grew up summer garden, and so part of her taking care of the garden was weeding was planting flowers that had insecticide properties so that they kept everything
Scott Allen 40:01
I love it,
Eliane Ubalijoro 40:02
or food. Yeah, well, and so it allowed her to connect with the food system. She grew so much basil that we had pesto for the whole winter. And if you think about it, it's so here's a yard, she designed that space, and she decided what she wanted to grow there. And she would decide, okay, this doesn't need to be here. And she would, you know, pull out the weeds. And I think it's really important, as we educate the next generation, that they take that vision of taking care of a garden in their relationship with the cyber world with digitalization with the web. How are you interacting with the web to nurture your soul? Or just to feed cravings? Yeah, yeah.
Scott Allen 40:49
did you say feed cravings or crazy?
Eliane Ubalijoro 40:55
Interesting, because, you know, I mean, you probably get that to where friends of friends and you know, children, people, send you people into, you know, advise them, coach them, their laws, etc, etc. And they'll recommend different sources that they can go to, to nurture them. So I'm just thinking of your podcast, it's like, there are so many really positive nurturing sources out there that people can really use to cultivate wellness, to increase their capacity for positive action to increase their capacity to reflect on their leadership style, for more power and for influence and for the greater good. And so I'm like, why is it that most people are unaware of these resources? There are so many out there that I'm unable to take in all of the positive things that I see. And, and, and you know, so I follow people that I find amazing on Twitter, you know, I interact with interesting people on LinkedIn, who are challenging me to grow and think bigger. And so these are things that, you know, part of it if you think a garden, you can have a beautiful garden that grows organic, nutritious foods, or you can have a neglected garden that, you know, just has a bunch of weeds that will cause allergies.
Scott Allen 42:14
Yes, yes. It's a great metaphor.
Eliane Ubalijoro 42:17
Yes. And so it's fate or destiny, are we consciously designing our destiny? That's really where leadership comes in. And that's where what we do with children when they're young, will determine their agency. And, you know, I go back to the saying that attributed to Einstein, whether it's true or not, you believe that the universe is a loving universe or not? You know, and whether you believe that will determine everything in your life. Because you'll see everything that will happen, will you take it as a victim? Or will you say, "Hmm, what can I learn from this? How can I grow from this? How can this help me help others? And how can this help me on this journey that is my life?" Because when you don't believe that, that the universe is on your side? You're always asking, "why is this happening to me? And this isn't the journey I'm supposed to have!"
Scott Allen 43:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eliane Ubalijoro 43:14
And so he just accepts, this is the journey I'm having. And everything that has happened to me is helping me grow my capacity to love and to act, and to be of service to others and to myself and my growth, then there's a curiosity with everything that shows up. And this is where, you know, are we creating enabling frameworks or frameworks that bring more resistance?
Scott Allen 43:39
Yep. Yep. Enabling frameworks. That's what we will discuss next time. We'll start with a new framework. Okay. Now, real quick, before we close down for the day, what are you reading, streaming, listening to what are those resources that you turn to that are, are appreciative, is life-giving that is motivating?
Eliane Ubalijoro 44:14
Yes. So you know, I think I mentioned that right now. I'm looking at a book called All We Can Save, and it's called it's the subtitle is true courage and solutions for the climate crisis. Okay. And it's Katharine K. Wilkinson and Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. So that's one of the books that I'm I'm really enjoying right now. A more difficult read that I'm also engaging with is Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents by Isabel Wilkerson. It's difficult to read around how race issues in the US over centuries have resulted in where we are and how This can help us understand the division that is present and how this can help us move towards healing. So it's a difficult read, but it's a beautiful read and the other one by Pavan Sukhdev is Corporation 2020 is how can the corporations today help us move towards a more environmentally conscious world that takes into the natural capital, the social capital, and human capital into account?
Scott Allen 45:32
Yeah. Well, and I didn't say this when, when we were talking in that little segment of this discussion, but, you know, how do we, I think sometimes there's a dichotomy in our minds that you can't be successful if you're sustainable. And I think you can be right? You can be wildly successful in a capitalistic system and do good in the world, and take care of your employees. It's, it's, it's a both/and. And you know, it's the sweet spot.
Eliane Ubalijoro 46:03
It's the sweet spot. And this is, you know, what when we teach polarities and managing polarities, it's about the "and." And it's what is our capacity to hold creative tensions?
Scott Allen 46:15
Yes.
Eliane Ubalijoro 46:16
And that goes in what is our capacity to hold diversity, and whether it's diversity in terms of human diversity and everything that is being promoted right now, in terms of how do we accelerate social justice and inclusion, diversity and equity in the world? But it's also how do we do it in the natural world in terms of bringing back biodiversity and having a more resilient world and not just think about efficiency, and 20th-century manufacturing, you know, mechanical visions, but really, biological systems view of, if we're, if Earth is an organism, you know, and parts are the heart or the liver can say, I want to have a heart and no liver, you need all of it.
Scott Allen 46:59
You need the lungs in the rain forest!
Eliane Ubalijoro 47:01
Yes! Yes. And so part of it is how do we look at humanity in that way? And how do we embrace institutions like the World Health Organization and what they do for us collectively? And how do we work with these institutions towards positive transformation?
Scott Allen 47:24
We're gonna start where I said we were going to start enabling frameworks next time. It's been so much fun having a conversation. Thank you so much, Eliane. I really, really appreciate it.
Eliane Ubalijoro 47:35
Thank you. This was fun.
Scott Allen 47:36
Okay, have a great day.
Eliane Ubalijoro 47:37
You too.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai