Ted Baartmans consults leaders, government officials, and international boards in their presence and communication. He studied geography and cultural anthropology at the University of Utrecht and public administration and government communication at the University of Leiden. He also studied crisis communication at Northwestern University. Ted’s clients are found around the world: Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe as well as North and South America. They include leaders, general staff, and boards for companies, government, and NGOs. He also works with several associations and societies in fields such as education, research, environment, government, healthcare, politics, and logistics.
About Ted Baartmans
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Ted Baartmans consults leaders, government officials, and international boards in their presence and communication. He studied geography and cultural anthropology at the University of Utrecht and public administration and government communication at the University of Leiden. He also studied crisis communication at Northwestern University. Ted’s clients are found around the world: Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe as well as North and South America. They include leaders, general staff, and boards for companies, government, and NGOs. He also works with several associations and societies in fields such as education, research, environment, government, healthcare, politics, and logistics.
About Ted Baartmans
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Note: Voice to text transcriptions are about 90% accurate.
Scott Allen 0:07
I am excited today I had just said to him that one of the most magical four or five days ever that I've experienced as a human on this planet was in the Netherlands was in Amsterdam. And outside of Amsterdam, I think I went I visited Haarlem as well, which was an absolutely beautiful little town. And so I'm excited today to speak with Ted Baartmans. Ted is the founder of The Presentation Group. And he travels the world. He travels the globe, he works with a number of different leaders on topics like communication or leadership. And Ted. Thank you, sir. Thank you for being here on a, I think it's a cloudy afternoon in the Netherlands today.
Ted Baartmans 0:50
And to make it even more even better for you. We are living in the suburbs of Haarlem. So you...
Scott Allen 0:57
Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. What was beautiful. I had a white beer.
Ted Baartmans 1:02
Okay. Yes. Don't drink beer. But I prefer wine. But yeah. Very good. Yeah, especially for Americans.
Scott Allen 1:10
Well, Ted, tell our listeners about your work. Again, as I said, you travel the globe. Every time I see you at some of our annual conferences, you've been somewhere in the world previously. And you're working with leaders, and you're working on communication, you're working on leadership. And so I'd love to today get to some themes from that work, you know what you see. But for now, let's just do a little bit of an introduction of you.
Ted Baartmans 1:38
Okay, well, you've met me. So you know all about me, I never introduced myself, I always will ask my wife or my children to do so. My background is my father was a geographer, and my grandfather also, so I studied geography, what else is there, but I and that's physical geography, which I, I always am, I'm too curious also to go not in to any field without getting deeper or things excited, or so I also study social geography, then anthropology. And then I thought I should know more about the government. So I did governmental Studies at the University of Leiden, and then I went to the US to study communication. And that's what I did at Northwestern. In Chicago, it was two different locations. Because I thought, this is about 25 years ago, that communication was just starting. And most people I said that I was working communication for today was dealing with telephones and all these things in
Scott Allen 2:48
at that time, you would have been selling calling cards or something!
Ted Baartmans 2:54
But it's something else. And it's also interesting because you're always looking for your identity, or what do you like to establish what he liked to be. And that's not and that's what I learned the first lesson, that's what's given to others, others will see within you what your attraction is to other people or to fields or to and what you could make as or you could see, as an exception. So you always try things and to establish things that others are always guiding. And these people said when I was I teach also for 10 years just to collect money for these studies, and we build up our family has four children. And they said, also, you should go into communications more and also just afterward to leadership. So it's connected to who you are, what you present. And these people got you. So then you end up 35 years ago in a firm, also to become a partner of that firm. And they were dealing with aspects of leadership, but more likely with presentation skills for leaders. People on television, but also and more brother speeches, commercial and for local government or national governments of Europe. And this is how I started about 35 years ago.
Scott Allen 4:22
So it was really others that were saying to you, "you should go into this work, you should do this work. You're great at this work." That's fascinating. And you listened, you listened because I imagine you would have had somewhat of a pretty clear path at that point with a couple of degrees under your belt of geography and social geography, anthropology, I mean, that's a certain direction. How has...I know...here's a fun question. How has your knowledge of geography, social geography, anthropology informed your work on communications and leadership?
Ted Baartmans 5:01
First of all, with all these discussions, talking about climate issues, well, that's the first thing. My background, I sit also I'm sitting at a table, where else is my father's was sitting, you know, and they taught me everything about the earth and the being of the earth. And so I was the only one that wasn't surprised about climate change, because I studied physical geography 45 years ago, and by then already, the computer system said, this is what's going to happen even by these computers at that time. So that fluctuation we see nowadays, that's also predicted within my 30-40 years ago. And physical geography is also teaching. What I learned from (James) McGregor Burns later on change is the only constant factor. And so transformational, his issues about leadership are quite connected to my sense and feeling about the earth and change as the constant factor is, of course, physical geography. So you can't predict anything because you never know when a volcano will come out and change the temperature or whatever it might be by people might be by all this, but that change in how to adapt change, and how to be in these days agile and these stupid other words. For me, just by being. It's no more no less. You should also perceive yourself as a very small particle in the universe. You, you never, that's why I'm quite connected to all these people who write about humble positions, because what are we come out to pay for? You know, it's a very tiny part.
Scott Allen 6:46
Yeah. Well, I tell you the next time I see you, I'm going to share, I'll bring you a gift next year for the ILA conference because I have now this is different than geography. This is geology now. But they're close cousins. And so I collect meteorites. And one of my favorite meteorites was called the Allende. And it fell in Mexico in 1969. And it was the most studied meteorite because they were also bringing back rocks from the moon. So they've studied Allende, like you wouldn't believe. And inside is nanodiamonds. It helped scientists understand the prevailing conditions at the time of the formation of the earth. And it's about it's 4.56 billion years old. And so when you say, a speck? Yes, we are, we are a speck, and it's to hold something that is 4.56 billion years old. It's incredible. It's a mind-boggling experience because it's it places you in this timeline, it's been on a journey to get into your hands.
Ted Baartmans 7:59
But also, it makes you humble. You see all things you always you think, well, there's always another context. There's always another context. And that's quite influential. When you do things in leadership or anthropology and all the things. Yeah, but it helps really to understand things a in a better and proper way. Yeah.
Scott Allen 8:19
Well, so as you're working with and we could go in either direction here, Ted, I would love to have this conversation, because you're working with individuals around the world, in all kinds of different contexts, whether that's Africa, whether that's South America, I mean, literally, you are on every continent you are, what themes are you seeing with as you're working with leaders, they could be themes around leadership, or they could be themes around communication that we could explore, but what are you seeing in these individuals? As as you work with them? What are a few themes that come up for you?
Ted Baartmans 8:55
The first thing is I connected these two words. So we started to think 20 years ago about leadership communication. So because what I do most likely also this morning also is making speeches, in this case for mayors to COVID. And next is December they trying to make speeches, to help people out in your thinking and their motivation. First of all mayor's are in Holland aren't chosen by people, they're appointed by the King. They are non-political. So you might see them also as like religious leaders, they, they give meaning to things, and I help them with speech. And they're also then it comes, what is the right wording, and also I think leadership, communication is about what is the right wording about things how to explain or how to give meaning. This is why it's so important also to study from the anthropology side, also. Because then you're more related to rituals and things happening, and wording, of course, because language is one of the most important things. And that's also quite helpful if you help people out or trying to help people out in other parts of the world.
Scott Allen 10:17
I love that. I love that. So the ritual piece is something I'd never thought of Ted, where you're connecting them to there. If I think of, for instance, the I Have a Dream speech of Martin Luther King in the United States in the context of the US, he connected it right back to our core. Right.
Ted Baartmans 10:38
Yeah.
Scott Allen 10:38
So that's kind of what you're talking about. Yeah.
Ted Baartmans 10:41
Yeah. And this is also because anthropology is about cultures. cultures are made by men, people. And that's also what's quite interesting that people say, Well, I can't help it, it's the culture. Well, you are the culture. So you represent that culture, by the language, by your behavior by all the things and that's also quite interesting to take into leadership. But how I came up with that leadership issue was that I started to read the books of McGregor Burns because I didn't understand leadership as such, it was quite difficult 30-40 years ago, even in my office to talk about leadership, because it was always connected to 'leiderschap', the German word. And that referred back to the Nazi regimes and lighter was a term used in the Nazi Party. And when we copied also the English word, I should say the American word leadership that was more neutral to talk about something else than management. Hero did these marvelous books about transformational and then I got connected also to people like Jean Lipman, Georgia, Sorenson, who just passed last year, and Gil Hickman and they also taught me within IRA but also, in other circumstances, that it's all about commonalities and not about differences. And it's also what I learn deeply. If I work worldwide, people are always focusing on how do I differ from people from Ohio, I never differ. I always look for commonalities. And I always make the same issue. When we were young, we had these small, in old cultures, you have these comic books, and then you had to look into pages to pictures, what are the differences, and I'm still working out to, to teach young children to look for the 275 commonalities. Something that, and that's what I do in coaches also, but and then it comes to, and it's, they taught me also a lot, and it's 20 years ago, I think a bit more. I was fascinated by these reconciliation processes in South Africa. So I was requested also to work for the Desmond Tutu Institute. I did it for nothing. And they gave me back also lessons that I could take in their work and visit them. And then I came also that these commonalities come from and that's what all these people worldwide have in common No matter if I work in, in Anchorage, or I work in the deep south in Australia. And that's the phrase of William James. And people like to be appreciated. All people. And that was and I studied, also, his work was never in his books, these huge values, it was in correspondence with students that he wrote this, so people like to be evaluated and respected. But that's what all humans have in common. And that's what we found about 20 years ago, then it's easy to work worldwide because this is what we do in Iran. This is what we do in Yemen, in China in Korea in Australia, it doesn't differ and therefore also we build in within the work we do, what kind of steps do you have to take them and these three steps are first of all understanding the most difficult one it's about active listening but also about how to observe this is typically anthropology how to observe without any judgment. Just go in and see and I eat with people I go to whatever church or temple they are in, I will go I just to get a deeper understanding of these people before I can see even anything because I don't know how to embarrass people or I was trying to go into the entrance for women of course as a joke, can you see what they will do? And then the second phrase is to accept all these things that I've seen without a judgment of the feelings of my values. Or if it's incorrect, of course, I can't fit. In 99% of these cases, I can accept a situation where they're in. And then so to respect, and that is also to appreciate these people in their behavior or what they do. And if I take these three steps, understanding, acceptance, and respect, then it's easy to connect to any leader in any position in War zones. And it doesn't matter. And then that's the first phase in which they start to respect me, then they accept me also, and then they understand Try to understand me and start conversations.
Scott Allen 15:46
And you build relationships. You make a relationship.
Ted Baartmans 15:49
Yeah, yeah. And then you get common understanding, then you get a common acceptance, common respect. And this is where an article for me is about when it comes to trust. And the only issue in my work is always building trust. Yes, all questions refer to building trust, and how to build trust, and to make it sustainable.
Scott Allen 16:11
So in that sense, your anthropology is directly linked to the work that you do. It's directly linked. And I love how you're saying, I forget the exact verbiage you said, but it was, you know, no matter where you are in the world, those are, that's, that's the recipe. That's the recipe is understand. And I'm summarizing here, but you said it just so so beautifully if you're respectful of their rituals and knowledgeable of their rituals, and who they are as a people if you're looking for commonalities, and what are commonalities and what does that look like? And then understanding of others, acceptance, and respect. And you're well on your way, regardless of where you are in the world.
Ted Baartmans 16:59
Yeah. And no matter people, no, and I know, of course, I talk about commonalities. But it's also, um, you said, You blurred out that you liked Amsterdam for five days? Well, for most people, Amsterdam is the most rotten place on Earth, red-light districts, it's all about smoking pot, it's about drugs, we call them. So drugs, you can get them anywhere. And, but also the country with free legislation on abortion, for instance, or euthanasia, because we had it, we have been in law. And so a lot of people perceive me, of course, as the evil, you know, he's coming from that country of, but I don't have any meaning of these things, I guess, where I'm born and, okay. But by understanding them, accepting them, and respecting them, they also come back to me and, like I said, also in countries like Iran, or in other countries, where people are quite committed also to religion. And also, you're always guided also in China, I was for over 20 years, by the government guiding you, I have, I've never been in North Korea, but you know, you can get a guide, it is your guide for the rest of the time that you're in the country like I do in a lot of countries. But if I show that I, I make an attempt to understand these people, I know their history, I studied their novels, their poems, they're just to, not to, to say anything about it, but just to understand what is their frame of thinking or, and by doing so, I express also a nonviolent approach. And that's also what I learned in this reconciliation process is and it's hard. But forgiveness also then for things is of course, an issue. So for building trust.
Scott Allen 18:53
Yeah. Well, and many places, I imagine forgiveness is one of the more difficult steps in some cases. Very personal.
Ted Baartmans 19:03
Yeah. But everyone knows that that is the answer. It might come after 20 years or 25 years or 30 years, or if you can't forgive, yeah, it's over. But it's also part of that acceptance. Yeah.
Scott Allen 19:19
So Ted, a couple of times. Now you've mentioned Iran. And so Iran is a great example of a country that, at least in the West, or at least in the US, we have been conditioned to be skeptical of that we have conditioned to view as, as the enemy. And like any other country. They probably in some cases haven't been innocent of crimes, like any other country, in world history.
Ted Baartmans 19:48
Yeah.
Scott Allen 19:49
So would you tell a couple of stories about working in Iran what might be some, some misconceptions that people have about working there or about that, those days Those people.
Ted Baartmans 20:02
I can't say anything about those people like I can say anything about the Americans, I try to study them for 30 years, you're just one of them. Well amazed every time. It also to make up generalizations like these about Iran...The first time that I went there was 13 years ago, or 10 years ago. It is for me, it's Persia. For me, the first connection is always culture. So I'm very humbled if I'm there because they are the founders of Math. They are the founders of the universe of the language of all the things we have in Europe here. Where once found it in Persia. They came to us and then, and we borrowed some things, and we never gave back. And, but so for me, it's some sort of the cradle where it all started. So if I'm there, I meet people. And I say, I want to go to Persepolis one of the elder cities in the world, still existing as some sort of Pompei here, but the pace is just recent compared to the cities. And I just try if I'm there in a desert, staring at the Tomb of Syria, one of the great leaders by then I feel also that this is a great country where people come from and, and that approach also to culture is also looking for commonalities. Yep. Like, of course, we have differences in Europe. And we always are quarreling within these EU as you do in the United States. It's a look-alike of the states. It's not a federal state. But if I look to the work of Stephen Shrike, for instance, it's always looking for what do we have in common in cultures, so I started with the cultures, I started with the history. And then also it is giving entrance to people. And the field I'm in for Iran is much like food and nutrition. Also, something in common, but also on food and nutrition. They are ranked in the top five worldwide who do the best studies. So I always think not in that global context of you are the enemy. And then and that switching of who is a terrorist country, the whole idea of a terrorist country, it, it never comes up to me. And so you deal with people, and you try to do the best for these people and, and to help and leadership. And all in a sudden, you see also that people from the government, once you have been keynote speaker there, they also approach you, you know, in in the hotels, and get off to you in in a proper way to help them out in issues about how to deal with you when or how to deal with the UN these issues. So I never interfere in any public state or not in China, and why should I...you know, and they urge you to find solutions to make also commonalities or to find better ways to work.
Scott Allen 23:08
Yeah. And it's just it's such an interesting perspective Ted that you have that? Because you've literally been to all of these places and worked in all of these places. And those themes across your work, because essentially your answer right there. You started with the rituals and some of the history and I imagine that that template, what I was gonna say your answer mirrored your template that you discussed previously. Right. And it's a beautiful template. I mean, it really is, has it ever not worked? Have you ever gone somewhere where some of these, it's been more difficult, or it's been a challenge?
Ted Baartmans 23:53
Oh, one of the aspects I talked over also at the London conference of ILA, there's quite early also. And that's some processes in getting these steps will take time. Yes, people have to digest and things. And that's also referring to the work we do if I talk about North and South Korea. You know, and being in school and talking about issues like these also people saying, how can you see time also as a friend, that's what I told him in London at the conference. That's also what I learned to have more patience. You can't say this is these are the steps and it's ticking the box and then I just did a presentation also on the last conference in it was virtual in San Francisco. And then also people will say in my work I do in crisis situations. It is not just that you say tick the box and get people connected. And then after a riot and all the things about people will help each other and love each other, how these processes will take time. And every context is also different. So we can do an I do also a lot of studies we can make tick the box lists of this is what you should do. This is a proper step one, step two, I learned over all these years, everything is always connected to something else, or has angles that are not seen before. And it's just within that uniqueness that it's so nice to work. It's sort of puzzle, in which you said I thought there were figures in but now it says numbers and, and bit, that whole notion of understanding these things. Take time. Talk to many people. Yeah. It's always a puzzle.
Scott Allen 25:55
Well, you'd mentioned crisis communication, are there some other themes or hints that you have for people as they think about navigating, communicating, and leading through crisis?
Ted Baartmans 26:08
Right, in most situations, it's always, we have about, I think, four or 500 studies and crisis. And the first thing that we could also then these people ask you to come in as external. It's also a great thing about the work you do, I saw you were also a consultant, I'm never into this, I'm, I'm not an owner, I'm not responsible I'm, and that overview you can get, it's also easier to stay out with your values or norms, and just to see what's going on around, the fifth thing we train people is okay to take time. The first step is always that we just like a patient, you try to neutralize the situation in which patient is stable, to get even a crisis situation, some sort of coma, you know, they say, Okay, let's freeze for it. First of all, to think, and always taking that emotional part, of course, taking that emotional part of grief. So AWS also looked at grief into it's just like a monster into the mouth, we always say just, it's always worth and takes time for that grief, what happens and, and, and then also try to find people from without that same area or to see just like an identity. What is the case, and I was very well trained in Northwestern also that what you see is never what is the real case? Yeah, never. At its core, it's never the crisis itself. It's always something else. And that digging out of that, that needs time, and then you always will find solutions or ropes that you think, "oh, if I follow this" and, and of course dialogues instead of debates on issues, and I learned also a lot from Mark Gerzon. You should also interview him. Okay, how about he wrote the book, also four years ago, already the Reunited States of America. Because he also was quite acquainted or related to helping out Republicans and Democrats to come together. He's also by birth, his father was and for their mother were Dutch. So the name Mark Gerzon pronounced in where he lives in Boulder is the ditch name Mark Gerzon. Okay. Famous family and they just flipped away just before the Second World War, which they did well. But his work is also quite influential in the things we do on his dialogues and things and he also works worldwide with these templates of thinking and you can use it in Bolivia. You can use it in Yemen. It's something like I said, it's all about being valued and respected.
Scott Allen 29:12
Yeah. Yeah. All About value. It's all about being valued and respected. Yeah, right. Yeah. To the core human needs.
Ted Baartmans 29:23
Yeah. And another article that really changed the work we did in it worldwide was a study that came out in 2007. Yes, by a German team was the name (Niels van Quaquebeke, Daniel C. Henrich & Tilman Eckloff - see show notes). I will send you some more details if you'd like they found out, what is it that people in Europe especially these refugees that came in, were, of course, they were understood. They were accepted. They got work, but they still felt some sort of, you might say discrimination or racism or because it didn't felt respected. Interesting. And then they studied what is that kind of respect that they miss or what they...and then they said, and that's also quite connected to anthropology, most likely it's recognition. And they found out that there are two ways to respect its - recognition, because your elder or your professor or you work, you live in Ohio, I should respect you, whatever. And it's more on the position you take or the age you have or the experience. But they found out that there is also respect connected to appreciation. And that was, but that was for our work. also amazing, because that's the entrance. Also, if I praise people, it doesn't have to deal with recognition or no, and you should praise everyone. So the one who just clean my house, I also appreciate her as much as I do was the best Professor I had. I don't make any difference. And it's all about respect. But that respect is exactly the same. It's equal. Yeah. And in dealing with violent situations, also, still, if you show respect, appreciation, because of the commitment of people, even if you're dealing with people from Al Qaeda. And sometimes it's just a bunch of boys just left in a desperate situation, and they, they perceive themselves as acquainted to Al Nusra, or al Qaeda, I always deal with, I appreciate the work you do because there's always within that behavior. They're not the killers, there's always something that is good, or that's also why they are connected to religions, they try to find beliefs. And within these beliefs, you always will find commonalities instead of differences. And then you have an entrance to drink a cup of tea in a tent and to start a negotiation.
Scott Allen 32:01
And have you ever explored the work of Deeyah Khan? Yes. Okay. So hurt. So for instance, her two films, White Right, which explores a white nationalist in the US, and then Jihad, which explores, you know, Muslim extremists and the commonalities between those two groups of men of what they're looking for, and what these organizations are offering. And to your point, you come down to a, oftentimes young man who doesn't have a purpose, a home, confidence. And these, these extremist groups offer that to them. Right, family stability, a belief system. And it's in those cases, misguided, of course, But to your point, at the core, you have an in some cases, broken young men, oftentimes, right? Yeah.
Ted Baartmans 33:01
Yeah. Yeah. And that's right. You what you see in politics in left-wing and right-wing. That's why I always say it's no left and right. No, it's a circle in which these two combined because then they start to be extremists. They expose themselves as but they are searching for the same issue, just like you said, they'd like to be embraced by a community or no matter what their communities might be. Nationalists might be also communists, it, it is still that the community feels they are looking for. Yeah. And that's also the good thing in anthropology and social anthropology also. What I learned very early, also, is that religions are also quite connected to economic systems. Yeah. So the religious issues, are these key issues, to help an economy or to make an economy understandable. And once you have seen these lines, it's easier to understand people and to respect these people in the way they are perceiving things or, is one difficulty. Of course, I'm a Catholic. So it's not what people say, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't. I didn't, whatever I did to my child God did. And then I prefer these Islamic peoples and say, you have to cut off the hand, I predict in the Middle Ages. Now, you, you always are responsible for these things. And that's also what I adore and leadership, that responsibility part. What is my responsibility? What's your responsibility? Yeah.
Scott Allen 34:44
Ted, I have loved our conversation. I really, really appreciate your perspective on this topic. It's just been a fascinating conversation. And I always close out these conversations with a question and that question is what are you What are you reading or listening to or streaming? Watching? What? When you're not traveling the globe, and I suppose your travel has been diminished somewhat in recent months. But when you're not working with others a cluster across the globe, what keeps your mind occupied? What have you been consuming?
Ted Baartmans 35:22
And I'm still doing two things because I expected questions. I know you for some years. And I'm fascinated by the work of Fernando Flores. He is Chilean. And he wrote it together with a great American Robert C. Solomon. He died a few years ago, also a book on building trust. So I'm working on these two books, also to meet him in Chile. I think it will be in January, did I have time to go there? And I read a book also by understanding your economy. And that's the Economy of Belongings perhaps, you know, the book?
Scott Allen 36:04
I don't I don't
Ted Baartmans 36:05
know. It's Martin Sandbu. He started four years ago already to, to a radical plan to win back the left behind and achieve prosperity for all. To study by economics also, why did so many people vote for Trump, for instance, so and his economic search brought him to perhaps robots and digitalization goes that far that we have to leave tons of people behind that we can't offer other jobs because there won't be other jobs. I think he's right. And that's stupid that we didn't think about the things earlier. How to replace work with other work before. So I think this is for the weekend. This is how I spent my weekends. Great Grandfather, having five grandchildren and spending the time reading. Now I do, most likely nightly, as you do? Well, but also to find in all these disciplines, this time economy, to find understanding ways of understanding our context, because it's always you have to take everything in it. And sometimes it's psychology, sometimes it's whatever. Yeah. This is what I adore. Yeah.
Scott Allen 37:28
Well, Ted, thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for the perspective you bring. I know that our listeners will have plenty to think about. I've said this on this podcast before, but I love the fact that and I love it when I'm speaking with people who bring a perspective from a different background. But ultimately, that different background beautifully fits into the conversation. Because we can explore this topic from so many different lenses like you just said, economics, psychology, biology, cultural anthropology, right? It's beautiful. So much fun. Sir. Thank you so much for being with us today. I really, really appreciate it. Take care.
Ted Baartmans 38:07
Okay, you too. Bye bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai