"Let's create a question that we can't answer without living the definition." - Drew Dudley
About Drew Dudley
Drew Dudley is a leadership educator and speaker who focuses on creating value-driven cultures of leadership. His clients include some of the world's largest and most dynamic organizations, including McDonald's, JP Morgan Chase, Hyatt Hotels, Kohl's, The United Way, and more than 75 colleges and universities. He's recognized as one of the most dynamic keynote speakers in the world, speaking to over 250,000 people on 5 continents. His work is featured on The Huffington Post, Radio America, Forbes.com, and TED.com. His “TED talk” has been voted “one of the 15 most inspirational TED talks of all time.” TIME Magazine recently named it one of their "Seven Speeches That Will Make You a Better Leader," and Inc. and Business Insider Magazines have also included it on their lists of the world's "Best Leadership Speeches."
Resources by Drew
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
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"Let's create a question that we can't answer without living the definition." - Drew Dudley
About Drew Dudley
Drew Dudley is a leadership educator and speaker who focuses on creating value-driven cultures of leadership. His clients include some of the world's largest and most dynamic organizations, including McDonald's, JP Morgan Chase, Hyatt Hotels, Kohl's, The United Way, and more than 75 colleges and universities. He's recognized as one of the most dynamic keynote speakers in the world, speaking to over 250,000 people on 5 continents. His work is featured on The Huffington Post, Radio America, Forbes.com, and TED.com. His “TED talk” has been voted “one of the 15 most inspirational TED talks of all time.” TIME Magazine recently named it one of their "Seven Speeches That Will Make You a Better Leader," and Inc. and Business Insider Magazines have also included it on their lists of the world's "Best Leadership Speeches."
Resources by Drew
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
I Have a New Podcast!
Do You Enjoy Phronesis?
Connect with Scott Allen
Note: Voice to text transcriptions are about 90% accurate.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody today on for nesis. We have drew Dudley. And I was just saying to drew that he has one of my absolute favorite TED talks of all time for probably three or four reasons. One, it's short, so I can show it in a session. And it's power packed, too. He's a great storyteller. And his vocal variety and his storytelling is awesome. Three, it's an incredible message. It's an important message. We're going to hear a little bit about that today. And for want my thinking to be that crystallized, it's just absolutely brilliant as TED Talks go. And Drew, I'm excited. I know you have a book out day one leadership. So we'll explore that. And I know that things have probably shifted for you in the last year from a speaking perspective, and all of that. But how about if we jump in with you sharing a little bit more about you, I need to give a shout out to Stephanie at Trent, for connecting the two of us. I was so excited when she said that she knew you. So maybe fill in some blanks. Tell us a little bit about you, sir. And and then we'll jump into the book. And then after that, maybe some of your current thoughts about everything happening out there in the world?
Drew Dudley 1:21
Well, first of all, thanks so much for having me, it's a thrill to be here talking about some ideas. I'm a I'm a speaker and an author who now lives on the side of a mountain, and spends most of my days staring directly into the unblinking eye of a camera, missing that feeling that comes when you get to connect with people and share ideas and the energy that comes off it. So you know, I used to run the leadership development program at the University of Toronto, that's where a lot of the ideas I share got their start the day one process, which is what I spend most of my time talking about, it evolved from some activities I did right at the end of my time at U of T with some senior students. And they were the ones who actually ended up pushing me on to that stage at TED. Because I began using TED Talks years ago, with Ken Robinson's do schools kill creativity talk, which I think may still be the most viewed TED talk of all time, it was the first one I ever saw. And it was a student of mine who sent me a link and said, You got to check this out. And I left it in my inbox for maybe a month. And then when you're cleaning it out late one night, and you don't, you don't want to delete it until you can honestly say you watch this YouTube clip, but I didn't watch all the YouTube clips my students sent me but this was a special kid. And I watched it and it was Ken Robinson. And then I watched it again. And it was a reminder that one of the true ways to make an impact on people isn't to make them look at you and say, oh, wow, I didn't know that. Or I can't do that. It's to give them the chance to look at you and say, oh, wow, I thought I was the only one. And when I saw Ken Robinson talk, I thought I thought I was the only one who thought like this. And I started incorporating TED Talks into my workshops from then on. And when the TEDx Toronto, which was one of the first TEDx events back in 2009 2010, there weren't very many. And one of my students said, Hey, they've got to open nomination slots. And I said, Yeah, man, I'm just a part-time speaker. And I had always told my students, they're not allowed to say they're just anything.
And the problem is, yeah, once you say it over and over again, they get to throw it back in your face, right? So they, they wouldn't take no for an answer. They organized a Facebook group that got to nominate me, and I guess over 40 of them nominated me. So when I got the call from TEDx Toronto, their basic thing was, yeah, we weren't sure who you were, but we got 40 nominations for you. And no one else got more than two. So basically, that's how it worked out. And you know, that talk that I'm so glad it's resonated with people, I've only watched it six or seven times, because as someone who speaks now for a living, those early stages of you doing what you love, you know, that it led you to where you are, but it's still so painful to watch. Because, you know, it's he said, it's a six and a half minute talk. Nah, man, it's a nine-minute talk that I happen to deliver in six and a half minutes because I was terrified. So yeah, bad. That's kind of where it came from. And then I got stabbed right after by an agent, a speaking agent who said, Do you want to talk about this corporately around the world? And I said, Yeah, good chance. that's gonna happen, buddy. And that's how it worked out. And that was 1000 speeches ago, obviously, the pandemic has changed to virtual sharing. But, you know, we developed some, some processes on leadership, that the aim was to make it so that more people would realize those leadership behaviors are a part of their life and that leadership behaviors are leadership. But we've pulled the idea of leadership away from how you behave, and focus more on the accolades and achievements you gain as a result of those behaviors. And I think what happens is, we make people mix up goals and byproducts. So their goals are money, power, titles, and influence. And what I'm trying to remind people is that all the things we've been taught our leadership goals are actually the natural byproducts that come from people who behave consistently in leadership ways. So why don't we identify those behaviors, and then teach them tricks on how to make sure they're a part of every day, as opposed to focusing so much on the byproducts which are systemic, they're made systemically more difficult for large swathes of society, most of the power on the planet comm is not accessible to most people on the planet, but the ability to create moments of leadership impact that is accessible to everyone. So I think we should focus a little bit more on that because then I think we're talking about leadership, that's a lot more accessible.
Scott Allen 5:47
Yeah. And in, in the talk, you say something very, very powerful. It's something to the effect of, Oh, my gosh, I'm gonna I'll edit this out. But it's, it's, we make something we make leadership bigger than ourselves. And it becomes this huge, nebulous concept. And I think that does, I think it that does it a disservice. Because whether it's the tiny moments of me, giving my daughter a kiss during the day, while she's going to school virtually, or whether it's the comment I make to a student, those are acts of leadership, those are acts of influence, and they make a difference in the lives of others. And I think what I love about that talk is it distills it right back down to an essence. Because especially on this podcast, Drew, I mean, I speak with people who are looking at this through the lens of complexity and looking at this through the lens of geography and psychology, and sociology, and you name it, all these different lenses. And it can be really, really complex. But it can also be very, very simple. And I love that message. And so, in the book, day one leadership, tell us a little bit about that. Tell us a little bit about the source behind day one leadership, the title even.
Drew Dudley 7:11
Yeah, it's interesting, we talk about leadership being accessible, I just want to take a second and point out that we actually get taught to minimize our leadership not just to strive for these big things, but we actively minimize leadership that we demonstrate every day. And for instance, the word tiny moments, as you said, the tiny moment where I, I kissed my daughter, that's not tiny at all. Like I'm sure there are very few moments in your life that are more profoundly impactful than the chance you get to do that with your daughter, even though we allow ourselves to get distracted sometimes. But the word tiny is actually a byproduct of how we've been educated to think about it. It's like we actively diminish the most powerful acts that we in which we engage moments of compassion and forgiveness and love. Like you just talked about empowerment. These are the most powerful things we do. And we call them the little thing. Yeah,
Scott Allen 8:01
no, you're exactly right. Thank you.
Drew Dudley 8:04
Yeah. But then you use, then you use the other word, like you said simple things, right? Because they're not complex. They are simple, but they're not little. But we've actually been educated into unconsciously diminishing most of the powerful stuff that we do. And so I just always, when I hear tiny, when I hear small, what I really think we need to do is substitute simple, yeah, because the idea is, they're accessible to all of us. But they're not small, and they're not little and they're not tiny. They're, they're huge. But we're taught to sort of throwing them to the side in the worship of these titles and powers. And, you know, and that and that gets reinforced because people spend a lot of money to get titles and powers and letters after their name, right? So then to come on and say, Hey, everyone's a leader, what you're doing to some people is threatening their own self-concept, right? Because their professor this and there's a vice president that. And so the idea that leadership is not these things that set you apart from other people that's a form of leadership is actually kind of a challenge. For some people, they see it as a diminishment of themselves as opposed to empowerment of recognizing there is a form of leadership to which we all can and should aspire. I don't argue that in leadership, everyone can or should be a CEO or wants to be right. But we can all engage in those interpersonal behaviors. And leadership's not in these big things, it's in the consistent thing. And to go back to your question, you know, what's, what's the books called? This is day one. And a big part of it is that day one of any mission is when you have the most commitment, the most humility, and the most forgiveness, right? And there is no one day in your business success or your academic success, your relationships, your physical or mental health. There's no one-day goal that doesn't start with a day one. Yeah, and day one. Is the day where you say, Okay, here are the nonnegotiable behaviors that need to be a part of every day of the rest of my life. And for me the whole day one concept which is laid out in the book is it's an offshoot and a combination of what I was teaching in the Leadership Program at the University, and my own personal experiences. So the idea of focusing on daily behaviors, and being incredibly consistent with them, yeah, in order to build momentum over a long period of time, is actually the result of a lot of day ones. In my own life day one of starting my own company, day one of losing 100 pounds in the course of a year, day one of no longer hiding the fact that I'm bipolar, because I was afraid of how it would impact my career, and day one of a life without alcohol. And one of the things I learned in recovery is if you don't want to have a drink the rest of your life, you have to choose not to have a drink today. And then your only focus is on making that decision today. Yeah, because it means that you don't get to rely on what you've accomplished in the past. But you also don't get overwhelmed by how much there still is to do, like fighting an addiction every day is a battle in and of itself. To think that of the 1000s of days, I hope I still have in my life that I have to fight that every day is enough to just make you quit. It's the same when you're eating a salad and you're just like, oh my god, like this is good today. But I've got to do this for like 300 straight more days, it makes you just want to quit. But the idea is if you take away the before and the after, and you focus only on the non-negotiables today, that is your day one for leadership. And like everything else, what I try to help people do is figure out what those non-negotiable leadership behaviors are every day, and then teach them a step-by-step process to how to actually live them. Because I think that we know what values we want to live and what behaviors we want to engage in. But I was lucky enough to work with some students and some, some pretty smart psych professors, and figure out how to couple this conscious desire to do something with some subconscious behavioral psychology tricks. And that's the day one concept, it basically says, look, leadership has been made into something big and huge and hard. And we're never going to start that mission because most of us have been educated not to think of ourselves as deserving leadership. And as such, well then let's stop looking at it as this big thing. And let's break it down into its constituent parts. And it's one thing to point out what those constituent behaviors are. It's another to trick our brains into prioritizing them. And so your values, you know, your values are how you define and judge yourself. And your priorities are, how you choose to spend your time. And if we can find a way to align that over the course of our days, I think then we're in a better position for people to realize that we are all engaged in at least this form of leadership. And I think most people aren't giving themselves credit for engaging in any type of leadership. Yeah, I think once we get them realizing that they're engaging in one, it becomes a lot easier to convince them that they're capable and have the right to engage in others.
Scott Allen 13:14
Well, even as I drew think about the last year, with, let's not exactly, exactly, but it's interesting because, in some ways, it was a little bit of a mindset challenge. My wife and I really worked hard. We, we focused a lot and we walk a lot together. And we spent a lot of time saying okay, how can we create the best Halloween ever? How can we create the best holidays ever? How can we create the best birthday ever? What can we do? What what what control the controllables? What can we control? And let's think creatively about what we can the difference we can make. And it was something maybe something really really small were in the states you know, Thanksgiving is in November. I know it's earlier in Canada. But we got matching pajama pants and a T-shirt that said Jeremy bear me on it because we love The Good Place. Right? That's how we spent Thanksgiving and all of us in our Jeremy Bearimy shirts. And, and so I think, I don't know, I just I as you're speaking, I'm even in this last year. Okay, here's day one. What do we do? What are our non-negotiables and in our house, we put up probably three or four different kind of rules on a chalkboard/ Right? And it was work one of them was "work the problem" so let's figure it out. Let's do it. You know, and we can get through this together and get through this and actually maybe create a great year. And it was a hard year. But in some ways we had moments of greatness to write.
Drew Dudley 14:59
I think Anytime you get forced to think differently, yeah, I have a lot of people who said, Well, I'm not creative, because I think we've associated creativity with visual art or art that you can see created. And I kind of think that creativity as a value, is anytime that you can think differently than you usually think. Yeah. So in some ways, Picasso. Yeah, it was an incredible creative. But if we made Picasso painted an entirely different style than he usually did, that's, again, creativity, right? And so I think a lot of people were like, I can't draw, I can't write, I'm not creative. I don't come up with new and original ideas. But then they're put into a position like the pandemic, and they've always done Christmas or Halloween or Thanksgiving the same way. And now they have to come up with a different approach. That's still creativity. But we compare our creativity to the creativity of people who have made it their life and their career, as opposed to looking at okay, but how am I different in my thinking right now, like even me being analytical as we looked into the pandemic and having to crunch numbers? Well, look, that's creativity for me to actually sort of sit down and do execution stuff, as opposed to big picture stuff. That's creativity. And I think that you're right. One of the things that the pandemic has reminded me and this is one of the principles of the work that I do is that I think we just better off when we acknowledge we're not always in charge of what we have to do. And I think that one of the things that cause us to judge ourselves is that there are people out there who say, you should never have negative thoughts, like if you embrace the world with love only an open your heart, you know, you never deal with these negative thoughts or anger or jealousy. And I think what happens is people look and they feel these human thoughts and emotions, they feel anger, they feel jealous. They feel like they're not good enough. They don't think they can walk into a room and, and embrace with love everyone in there. And they think that that means that they're weak of character. Yeah. I think that what I want to acknowledge is like, we're not always in charge of what we have to do every day, work, family, all kinds of demands, say, No, you have to do these things. But you're always in charge of who you are. Yeah. And we never have that taken away from us. If you know, read, you know, Man's Search for Meaning and some of these incredible books, the reminder is always there, that it is not easy, but no one takes from you who you are. Yeah. And so the idea for me is okay, well, then let's identify the values that we want to define who we are as people. For me, I've got six, you know, I want to embody impact and growth and courage, empowerment class and self-respect, okay? Now, those aren't the only values that I want to live up to, to which I want to live, sorry. But they, I want to be able to, at the end of the day, point to moments during the day where I can say, look, there that value was out there, you're not always charged what you have to do, you're always in charge of who you are. And the day one concept is that okay, well, as opposed to worrying about how I've done this week or this year, I want to be able at the end of the day to actually identify specific behaviors that are consistent with these values I claim to stand for because I don't think I'd articulated it clearly until just a couple years ago, when all of a sudden I realized that the phrase, I'm the type of person who is basically always followed by a lie. Like, have you noticed this? If someone's like, I'm the type of person who always makes decisions with, I'm like, No, as soon as you say, I'm the type of person who we're all about to tell a lie to the world. Because what's true about you isn't announced it's demonstrated. But I had to be honest, like, I claim that these values are who I want to identify me. But could I actually, at the end of the day point to a moment where I'd lived impact or empowerment. That's the whole idea of this day. One approach is I say, Okay, well, look, I don't know what the future holds. But I do want to be proud of the man I am when I get there. So well, I don't know what we're gonna have to do this week, this month, this year to deal with a pandemic, I do have a clear roadmap to what I have to accomplish today, I have to do three specific things that live up to three out of the six of these particular values. And so even on the days where everything outside of my control blows up in my face, yeah, I can still point and be like, Yeah, but there were two moments or three moments where I was the man I want it to be. And my goal is to give other people that opportunity, the right to just be like their, their days where we just eat it. Yeah, like it's just "take it right in the teeth." And the problem is that we don't get a chance to then look back, we see those days as a waste. And I want people to see them as a loss if that makes any sense. Like you can go out there and play the game and get kicked in the teeth. Like the famous Canadian show letter, Kenny likes to say, "hey, sometimes you just get a speed bagged." But you do sometimes that like you just get speed bagged. But right now when that happens, we go to bed. We're like today was a waste, everything blew up. But if at the end of the day, you could be like, Oh my god, so much stuff blew up. But hey, that moment where I move someone else closer to a goal. I lived empowerment. I recognize someone else's leadership. I live The impact, that's a gift we get to give ourselves, right? And I want to help people be like those are that's you. And at the end of the day, those are moments where you were living up to the person that you claim to be. That's sometimes the only thing we get. But I think we should give ourselves credit for it. You know what I mean? Yeah,
Scott Allen 20:17
yeah. Because I think like a lot of other things we can tend to focus on, were things where we got kicked in the teeth. And if we're lucky, that makes that really, really big in our heads versus some of the good that happened that day. So non-negotiables. I like that phrasing. So you've got the non-negotiables. And tell me some more things about the process or some, some hallmarks of the process.
Drew Dudley 20:46
A big part of the process has to do with questions, okay. Questions are an incredibly powerful driver of human behavior. The idea was that we started with a social experiment whereby students got to pick one value that if they could choose it, everyone on the campus would live up to like, guaranteed. And the thing about values is we use those words a lot without defining them. And so I always ask people, if they're gonna throw a value word at me, okay, finish this sentence, that word means a commitment to, right. So the students said, We want impact, we want everyone on this campus to have impact. I said, Okay, impact is a commitment to what? Like, think about that, for the most common value words we use. Integrity is a commitment to what equity is a commitment to what we use the words to judge ourselves and other people, but we don't often define them. And we define impact as a commitment to creating moments that cause people to feel as if they're better off for having interacted with you. And that's an amazing definition they came up with. Yeah. So that became the challenge as I sent them out every day, okay. Why don't you live up to that, because there's one student observed, although he cribbed it from Adelaide Stevenson, he said, it's a lot easier to stand up for something than it is to live up to something. And so the goal was, okay, go live up to this definition of impact you created. But we kept forgetting, right? Like, we could look back at the end of the day, and identify moments where we done that to people, but we were using this value to evaluate behavior that had already happened. And what we think leaders do is you use your values to drive behavior and impact decision making in the moment, a values only a value, if you use it as criteria for decision making. And if you have to think back over your day, and think about your value for the first time, at the end, it means it wasn't front and center when you made decisions. So it's not really a value. It's just a word that looks good on a website or a lawn sign if you're running for office, right. And so we needed a different approach because we were forgetting about it. And so the psych friends of mine taught me a couple of effects a couple of behavioral psychology effects. One's called the Zeigarnik effect okay, which says stuff on your to do list you haven't finished, really psychically bothers you until you finished it. And Wish we all knew I just didn't know there was a scientific term for it. But you know, you know, PhDs, right? They got to take simple things and make them sound complex. And the other was the question behavior effect, which says that asking someone questions about a particular behavior is actually more effective at getting them to engage in that behavior than telling them to do it, or asking them to do it. And so what we did is if questions drive human behavior, and unfinished tasks cause psychic discomfort until they're finished, we decided to harness the power of the unanswered question. Because if a question is put into your mind, it works on it consciously for a while. But when you think you forget about it, you don't, it continues to work on it subconsciously, until you come up with an answer. And if you don't come up with one, it makes one up and convinces you that it's true, which is a dangerous phenomenon, and one that's been on high display recently in the United States. And so what's interesting is we said, okay, let's, let's turn these values into questions. The idea is that we can go out and try to create a moment that causes people to feel better off or interacting with us. Or we can stick a question into our minds as an expectation. And our brain will be so uncomfortable not having an answer, that it will actually adapt our behavior to go find
it well. So that's the idea is that was the concept. That's the experiment. Yeah. And so we said, okay, let's take a look at the impact. And let's create a question that we can't answer without living the definition. Specifically, what have I done today to recognize someone else's leadership? So the idea was that question, you can't answer it without creating a moment that makes someone feel better, right? I couldn't say, hey, Scott, watching what you do with your podcasts, watching how you engage with your students, has made me want to be a better person. It's inspired me. Nobody reacts to that interaction, not feeling better off. Yeah. So It's impossible to answer the question without living the value. But because of the psychological trick we learned, we realized that, okay, stick that question on your phone at 9am, 1pm, 5pm, and, 9pm. And maybe you'll hit snooze the first few times. But once it's in there as a habit, your brain will always be seeking out, seizing, or creating opportunities to live the particular value to answer the question, it'll find a way. And so we did that with that question for 30 days, what have I done today to recognize someone else's leadership? And the students? They were so effective at this the question created so many incredible moments. Yeah. And sent out so many ripples, because my students went out there in the world for the first time looking for leadership, not from the people who ran their lives, but from the people who changed the way they felt about them. And we're talking bus drivers, warmer coaches, former teachers, the guy who sold hot dogs on campus but was such an upbeat dude. And for 30 days, we did it. And then we added another question, and then another, and another. So honestly, man, my process is something called the leadership test. We identified six values, we created six questions. And every day we try to get three answers out of six. The idea being Imagine if every night before you go to bed, you have to prove you deserve another day on earth. Not at the end of a semester or a year, five-year plan every night. And to prove it, you got to answer get three answers at a six on a test. But you're given the questions in the morning. Yeah. Those questions become non-negotiable, and they drive our behavior. And that's the whole concept.
Scott Allen 26:39
What's it? What are a couple of other examples of questions, Drew?
Drew Dudley 26:43
Sure. Well, just a quick recap of the six What have I done today to recognize someone else's leadership impact. I use these six to drive my behavior and the company that behaviors, growth is what did I do today to help someone to make it more likely someone would learn something could be you or someone else? courage? What did I try today? That might not work, but I tried it anyway. Which has been an incredibly rewarding question for me in my life, personally. empowerment, what have I done today to move someone else closer to a goal, which is so crucial when our kids get taught to compete with one another over scarce resources, class, a commitment to treating people in situations better than they deserve to be treated? What have I done today to elevate instead of escalating, elevate means trying to succeed in a situation, and escalate means trying to win. And there is a difference between the two. And very few things stand more in the way of success than trying to win. And the last one, self-respect, a commitment to recognizing that when you're empty, you have nothing to give, and what have I done today to be good to myself. And the idea is three of six every day. Yeah. And the concept being that. For most of our lives, most of our obligations we have in our life, every day are to other people, if we can find a way to carve out even 10% of our obligations in a given day and make them obligations to ourselves. We move from a life of obligation 100% obligations to other people to a life of service 90% of what you do is for other people, but 10% is for you. And for me, it's passing the leadership test. Because the questions on the test are tied to the values that we wanted to define us as people, what we were really trying to do is find some avenue to prioritize our to-be list at the same level as our to-do list. Because for a lot of us, if we really take a hard step back and look, most of the decisions and priorities we create in a given day are based on what we have to get done, not who we want to be, we focus on the person we want to be when we have extra time. And then I don't know how much extra time you've got. But it never seems to materialize. And so I'm not saying ignore your to-do list. I'm just saying make sure that your to-be list gets at least some of your obligations in a given day, because you don't know what the future holds. But you do know what to do today when you do that. So that's the whole idea. There is those six questions I help people identify and figure out their own questions do their own customized leadership tests, like one woman came up with? How was her mind today? Because she wanted to live empowerment. And she said every Harry Potter book should be called Harry Potter at the time her mind he bailed his ass out and never got any credit for it. And so for her that was about empowerment. Another guy said, how was I how start today? Because he wanted to honor and accountability to be his core values. So every day he wanted to identify a moment where he had embodied how Stark which for anyone on Game of Thrones fans makes no sense. But the key to these questions is they don't have to make sense to anybody else. They just have to make sense to you. So a dog breeder in spur kindness said How did I scratch behind someone's ears today? Every one of the questions on her test was related to dogs somehow. Empowerment was how did I refill someone's water bottle or waterbuck water bowl today So it's really about your own. Whatever question you have to pose yourself. That's what's key is that it matters to you. But what we found was turning goals into questions, and then training yourself to have those questions as an expectation every day actually causes your brain to become uncomfortable enough to change your behavior in order to find an answer to a question. Wow. And that was a simple thing, but it wasn't a small one.
Scott Allen 30:27
Talk a little bit more about courage in your...you mentioned that was like a really critical one for you. Can you share a story?
Drew Dudley 30:37
Yeah, you know, what it was with courage is a commitment to taking action when there's the possibility of loss. And I always kind of beat myself up because I wasn't confident and back you know, you keep hearing Oh, competence is sexy competence is the key. competence is not the key competence is like a straw man. It's, it's this. It's a cultural cliche, we throw out that I think is flawed. Confidence is acting like stuff doesn't scare you. Courage is acknowledging something that scares you and taking action anyway. So what gets me is that the difference in competence encourages confidence that exists in the absence of action. Courage only exists when action is taking taken in the face of fear. And so I've got a couple of guys teach me one night this concept by created by Canadian Jason Comely called, it's called rejection therapy. .Jia Jiang did a book on it called Rejection Proof. But the idea is you attentionally try to get rejected. And I met these two guys who told me that one day a month they compete to see you get rejected more times in 24 hour period. And that gave birth to this, what have I done today, that might not work, but trying anyway. And in my own experience, I've gotten to make the announcements on planes, I've got to drive a Formula 2000 race car, he did chef's tables, Michelin star restaurants, right on a private jet, just by asking by saying, There's no way this is going to work, I met the love of my life. Because I took one look at her and said, Oh, this is not going to work. But I'm going to try it anyway. And I went up and talked with her and, you know, took me 38 years, but I found the person I was I fell in love with because of that question. And I'm not talking about taking risks that end careers or relationships, or God help our lives. I mean, taking a look at the opportunities to ask that we don't even ask because we're simply afraid, someone's going to say no. And this may be a very Canadian thing. But three things that those guys who taught it to me, told me, one, you don't get rejected as often as you think you're going to. Sometimes it takes effort to when you're rejected, and you expect to be it has no impact on your self-worth. In fact, it feels like an accomplishment. And that eventually spills over into the rest of your days. And then three, and this is maybe a very Canadian thing. But even when you are rejected, you are almost always offered something better than what you currently have. So like they used to say they asked cops if they could shoot at stop signs in suit, like in Superbad? And they said, No, cops let you do that. But a couple, let us drive their squad car around. Right? So you go up and you're like, I think Joss said it next time you're in a restaurant that offers free refills. Remember restaurants, just go up and ask for a burger refill and see what happens. I asked for a refund on a doughnut once just trying to make the cashier laugh. I asked for a refund on a doughnut because mine had a hole in it. And for any Canadians listening, you know what a Timbit is. But I believe doughnut holes are the American equivalent. So she took a doughnut hole off the shelf behind her and shoved it into the hole of my doughnut and said, there you go, sir. It's all fixed. And that moment, that moment was awesome for both of us. Right? So courage is a lot of people out there, you think that you're not a leader? Because you don't have you're not confident? Most of the great leaders I know are not confident. They're actually set among the most neurotic people I know. Because the world is made for people not cursed with self-awareness. And leaders curse with self-awareness are cursed with the fact that they're always going to wonder if what they did or thought was right. And a lot of them aren't confident, but they're incredibly courageous. And so when that moment comes, where they're not confident, they still take action. And like, let's face it, look around the world, which is serving people better leaders who are courageous or leaders who are confident because we've seen plenty of competent leaders. And a lot of times the most competent people are the least courageous. Yeah. And there are some very high-profile examples over the last let's say four years that give an excellent example of that.
Scott Allen 34:50
I love the framing of that. I love it. There was about I think it was around 2008 2010 There's this whole, this whole kind of theme resonates for me. But I started reframing rejection and literally looking at myself in the mirror and saying good job, you're in the game, you put yourself out there, good job, good job. And in a very, very different way. I'm not like actively going out in a 24 hour period and seeing how often I can get rejected. But it means I'm in the game, it means that I'm playing and that I'm putting myself out there. And for me, that's at times the win, quote, unquote. And I love the framing of that I really do it for what it's worth.
Drew Dudley 35:39
Yeah, you know what it led to man, I just as a quick, I know, we got to wrap up, I know
Scott Allen 35:42
You go for it.
Drew Dudley 35:44
Someone taught me, someone, I was trying to lose all the weight because I wasn't I was over 300 pounds. And I wasn't allowed on a roller coaster, in Universal Studios, because I wouldn't fit, which is a wake-up call. And as we put together the plan, myself and a friend, like the fitness friend, we all have the one we all want to kill, who has multiple, multiple different pairs of shoes for different running conditions this person, and but she taught me something, she said, here's the plan, and you get 65 days where you don't have to follow it. 65 days where you're on the road, and you're tired, and you just want pizza or circumstances don't allow you to stick to this plan. The failure is part of the plan. Because it's not failure that blows up your plans. It's unplanned for failure. And so she said, you get 65 days, and every time you use one, you didn't fail, you're executing the plan. And so the idea was when you plan failure, or what we consider failure into your plans, that when that happens, the difference is you're looking at it as if you're executing the plan. And failure as an execution of the plan is a totally different mental impact on you than saying, Oh, I screwed this up. A couple of big engineer friends of mine taught me that when they were building the world's fastest recumbent bicycle or a pedal-powered helicopter, is they're just like, Oh, no, we like had failure plan that every stage because we wanted to fail a bunch of times with the whole of the bike before we started failing with the steering because we need to know that if the bike tips over at 100 miles an hour that the outside will hold on while we're trying to figure out how the steering works. And they're like, it wasn't about getting it right, we planned for failure at every stage, we just systematically executed the failure, knowing that it was all part of a lot long term. But engineers will tell you that all the time, is that you have to put a whole bunch of failures into your plans. Because there comes a point where this cliche that it's only failure, if you don't learn something from it there like you're not the person writing the 100 miles per hour bicycle, if you honest to god feel that that's the case, I want to know that we failed a shit time leading up to this test, so that we know what works, right. It's like, getting good at a video game is just a failure after failure after failure after failure. And then all of a sudden, you're good. But you don't turn that game on and expect to be good. You expect to get your butt whipped a bunch of times, knowing that it's part of the execution. And I think that's what courage is about recognizing that you have the strength personally, to deal with failure so that you can start to execute failure as part of your repertoire of tools for growth. Yeah. Because like failure is just I don't know reps for your resilience muscle I guess as I stare at by like dumbbells on the floor that I haven't picked up in a while. So yeah, failure is reps for your resilience muscle. And right now my weights are going yeah, but they aren't reps for your arms, you tub.
Scott Allen 38:46
Man, you are a framer, you frame things in a very, very eloquent, and wonderful way. Drew, you really do man, I
Unknown Speaker 38:53
appreciate that. It's
Drew Dudley 38:54
so much fun to get to share ideas like this and try not to tell too many stories. Because as you said, I love telling stories off the top. And then you said let's talk for 30 minutes, I said I can't introduce myself a
Scott Allen 39:05
great storyteller. And if you frame concepts and ideas in a very, very wonderful way, it's just a gift. It's a gift. And
Unknown Speaker 39:13
thanks, man.
Scott Allen 39:14
I love it. I absolutely love it. So as we wind down, what are some things that even in the last year you've streamed or read or listened to it could have to do with leadership and life or doesn't have to it could just be completely mindless. Anything that stands out for you that has really caught your attention?
Drew Dudley 39:33
Yeah, you know what I think? One is, I still love listening to the moth, which is a podcast about it's not even about storytelling that just features storytelling, and I really believe that the story is the basic unit of human understanding. And way too many amazing people are either afraid or unable to tell their story because they think it's unimportant or it's boring. I love the moth because a lot of the people who present their stories aren't tremendous speakers. And I think it's a reminder to everyone out there that it isn't, how strong your voices are, how smooth your delivery is, it's the power of the actual story and, and your story gives people the opportunity to say I thought I was the only one yeah. And so get out there and share it on the moth is such a great inspiration to people to realize how hearing other people's stories changes you. So you should share your own. I like listening, you know, there's one called in the dark, because we talk a lot about social justice in this world, and then when you listen to these longer stories, where you really see how systemic injustice is within the criminal justice system, etc, you start to realize that sometimes it's so easy to take the fight for social justice, and look at it at such a high level, that it just becomes one side versus the other. Right. And obviously, that is weaponized by certain people in society as well. But when you actually get to listen to how this impacts individuals that have ended a lot of these True Crime podcasts, I've listened to one called in the dark, but the investigative journalism ones really could open your eyes to how much injustice exists out there, and we just not seeing it. And then when it gets names and faces and families put to it, I've really enjoyed listening to that, because it's a reminder that it gets broken down into these news clips. Oh, George Floyd protests. And that's just date. It's just the George Floyd or last spring's social justice, protest. These aren't just these broad thing that is easy to attack social justice. protests are easy to attack, recognizing that there were groups of people fighting these individual historical and justices. I've loved being reminded of that at every chance I get names and faces and families and voices that are the people who have suffered through this. Yeah. I always want to remember because as soon as you generalize something, it becomes a lot easier to D humanize. Yeah, and I think that that's a weapon used by individuals who don't want to see social change the fire that we pull it away from actual names and faces, the easier it is to not deal with it. So I love listening to that. There's a great one that I just started listening to about when the levees broke in flood lines, it's called when the levees broke in New Orleans is one of the most beautifully produced podcasts I've ever heard. And it's not just about Katrina in New Orleans, it is about what happens when communities that we have underserved and marginalized are faced with a crisis, when and when we're faced with the crisis, like let's face it, the straight, like in my world, the straight which straight, straight, rich white guys of the world, had to put up with a pandemic. And it was hard for everybody. But then when you watch how these marginalized communities are then faced with a challenge, you start to realize that this wasn't in Texas, there were people who are like, Oh, crap, we're out of power. And then there were people who died. And it's because when you marginalized communities, as soon as something hard hits, they're the first ones who are not prepared for them. And I'd like to be reminded of that. And maybe that wasn't as upbeat as possible. But I'm reading and listening to as many stories as I can. Because right now, and this is not the first time in history has happened, maybe it has never stopped happening. But right now, turning people from personal stories into archetypes and villains that we can attack is far more popular than understanding the individual stories behind people. So let's not stop listening to individual stories, especially those individuals for whom you might not be familiar or understand. Yeah, like, I listened to a lot of right-wing, radio and podcasts to try to better understand what some of the fears are that drive what I find to be completely on, like unreconciled positions. But I'm only seeing it from the outside. So let's listen and see if maybe there's something in there. I can understand.
Scott Allen 43:57
Yeah, can I empathize? Can I try and understand what kind of brings a person to this point, right, to this perspective to this opinion? Because I think, I think you're exactly right. It's very easy to kind of objectify and distance and kind of broad brush. And those stories are, are important. They're critical. And I think, to your point, it's, it's how we as humans communicate, and what probably hits our souls most directly. Are those stories, right?
Drew Dudley 44:34
Yeah. Serial does a great job with it in their first and third and fourth seasons. And like, just to sort of, you start to listen, and then you say, Oh, this is unacceptable. And then you actually listen to the people who are engaging in behaviors. You're like, I don't understand that and you're like, Oh, I understand. Yeah, I don't agree. But I understand. And right now, we're too often not getting to a point where we say I don't Gree where first you say I understand where you're coming from. But I don't agree, we're just skipping that spot. We're being told what the other people think we're being told what they understand. And then we're being told why they're our enemy. And I think that leadership is trying to have the strength to understand where it's coming from. Because at the foundation of every personal organizational societal dysfunction is fear. Someone or their people are afraid of something, that they're going to have something taken away, or they're going to have something added. And often, that fear is misdirected. However, that doesn't mean that that fear is invalid. You know what I mean? It's when people are made to fear something, they behave in certain ways. And the fact is that we shouldn't diminish when people are afraid, we should ask how were they made afraid? And is there anything we can do to make them less afraid? And that's harder? Yep. But and it's been very hard this last year for me, I love social media. Because toxicity isn't really where I want to come from. But and it's hard to be on social media without being part of the toxicity. But and especially since I'm not that good a guy, and a lot of people watch my talks, and they're like, oh, you're talking about how to be a good person. and nice. I'm like, sometimes I don't think I'm a very good guy. But I want to do good things
Scott Allen 46:15
Say more about that.
Drew Dudley 46:16
Well, I think I was talking about it a little bit earlier. And I think that we all feel this anger. And it occurred to me specifically, I was on a plane. And I was in a bulkhead, seat, window seat, you know, set everything up ahead of time, because it was a long flight. And then somebody comes up, and it's like a nine-year-old and a mom sit down next to me. And then the dad comes up and says, Can I sit with my family here? And I'm in like the bulkhead row at the front. And he's in row 43. In the middle. Yeah, in the back. And my first reaction is the man I want to be would be like, Oh, of course, it was your family, but almost like, she's nine, like she just needed to add like this was like, but that goes on in my head. And a little voice in my head is saying, I have tattooed on my arm, what would the man I want to be doing. And the man I want to be would say, of course, no problem. The man I am is like, this is a six and a half hour flight, and you're in like row 43 in the middle. And you don't really need to sit here. But and then I think I'm not a good person, or I'm not a good leader or I don't live up to what I talked about, because my first instinct was to say no, or when your friend asked you to help them move, your first instinct is, I don't want to, and that I think we've been taught that what really good people do is they don't even entertain those negative thoughts of anger, or jealousy, or just not wanting to do it. And as soon as you feel them, you're a bad person. And I think that the key piece is not whether or not you think pure thoughts. It's whether or not your behaviors echo your worst thought. And so, for me, I guess the whole idea of the leadership test and having these values and wanting to prove them to myself every day, and teach others to do the same is that it's not what you think that defines you as a person. It's whether or not your worst thoughts translate into bad behaviors. As a matter of fact, leadership is having a process between your worst impulses and your actual behaviors. And I think that maybe we're all hard on ourselves. And maybe I'm just included with this is that we judge ourselves not by our behaviors, but by whether or not we had only pure thoughts before engaging in Yeah, and the leadership test and the day one process and everything I teach is honestly a tool that I use to try to equip my better angels so that they could do battle with my demons, because my demons are better funded, and seem to have more support. And so trying to put a process in place between you know, that frustration, that anger, that toxicity that the world creates for you, and how you actually behave in the world, I think is what's key. And I think that's leadership. So but I do think that there's messaging out there that says, your goal for us should be to never think human thoughts, anger, jealousy, frustration, simply selfishness, not wanting to get your truck out, or sit in the middle damn row. But if you still do them anyway, then you are a good person. As a matter of fact, that may be more, which is harder to desperately not want to do it, and then turn around and do it because it's the person you want to be. Or to always be like, Oh, yeah, of course, and then do it. Yeah. There's an actual accomplishment in finding your darker impulses and being the person you want to be. And it started with me when that guy came up and said, Would you move out of your awesome seat on this transcontinental thing? And I just didn't want to. And then I was like, the man you want to be would do it. And you're not less than that man, because it took you a minute to remind yourself of that. And then I wouldn't sat in the 43rd row. And since I'm a recovering alcoholic, the incredibly nice flight attendant who tried to give me free drinks as a way of saying thank you She couldn't even do that. But man, I got myself two extra bags. Some days,
Scott Allen 50:06
that's a win. And he had this gift built into the, to the system.
Drew Dudley 50:11
So that exactly. Apparently nuts are healthy for you, but not once you'd like dose them himself and process them. But I always like being like, if this food I was eating was the purest version of this food, it would be healthy for me. Like I'll get a big chicken and be like chickens Good for you. And my healthy friends are like he, like, the problem is the statement you made is true. Yeah. I told no lies. Chicken is healthy for you.
Scott Allen 50:39
Just not, for me at least just not in this quantity. Yeah.
Drew Dudley 50:43
But honestly, I think that's really where I think leadership is born is is how you What's the response? We're the only creatures on the planet with a gap between stimulus and response. I think Stephen Covey quoted that we're not even sure who first said it. But cubbies often attributed that we're the only creatures on the planet with the gap between stimulus and response. And your leadership, for the most part, is determined by how you use the gift of that gap.
Scott Allen 51:13
Well, Drew just a pure joy to be with you today. I'm so very thankful that you gave your time. You can check off a couple on your list tonight before you go to bed. That's awesome. And this, this will be heard far and wide. And your message is an incredible one. And like I said, I just have so much respect for how you frame so many different concepts and your ability to tell stories that help frame that. So thank you for the good work you do, sir. We appreciate it.
Drew Dudley 51:44
And thanks for letting people share their stories, my friend it's that's an act of leadership in and of itself. It's an honor to get the chance Kay will be well sir. You too.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai