Why does she engage in the work? For Dr. Jackie Bruce, it's crystal clear - and it's inspiring. "For me, the 'Why' is that we are creating a more equitable, more just, more liberated community. That's the point...not just to improve the bottom line...but so that every single person can be the person they were meant to be. That's the point." Her clarity struck me in a powerful way.
Dr. Jackie Bruce is an Associate Professor, Director of Graduate Programs Agricultural & Extension Education and Undergraduate Coordinator, Leadership in Ag & Life Sciences Minor at North Carolina State University. She resides in the department of Agricultural & Human Sciences and teaches courses in leadership development & qualitative research methods, and advises undergraduate and graduate students. She serves as the Co-Director of the Oaks Leadership Scholars Program, is an Equal Opportunity Institute Graduate Scholar, and an LGBT Center Advocate. She enjoys great discussions and direct action related to creating more inclusive communities. Jackie is the Editor-in-Chief of the Journal of Leadership Education and is honored to work with a vibrant community of leadership scholars and practitioners.
Learn More About Jackie's Work
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Connect with Your Host, Scott Allen
Why does she engage in the work? For Dr. Jackie Bruce, it's crystal clear - and it's inspiring. "For me, the 'Why' is that we are creating a more equitable, more just, more liberated community. That's the point...not just to improve the bottom line...but so that every single person can be the person they were meant to be. That's the point." Her clarity struck me in a powerful way.
Dr. Jackie Bruce is an Associate Professor, Director of Graduate Programs Agricultural & Extension Education and Undergraduate Coordinator, Leadership in Ag & Life Sciences Minor at North Carolina State University. She resides in the department of Agricultural & Human Sciences and teaches courses in leadership development & qualitative research methods, and advises undergraduate and graduate students. She serves as the Co-Director of the Oaks Leadership Scholars Program, is an Equal Opportunity Institute Graduate Scholar, and an LGBT Center Advocate. She enjoys great discussions and direct action related to creating more inclusive communities. Jackie is the Editor-in-Chief of the Journal of Leadership Education and is honored to work with a vibrant community of leadership scholars and practitioners.
Learn More About Jackie's Work
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Connect with Your Host, Scott Allen
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate.
Scott Allen 0:01
Jackie Bruce, Dr. Jackie Bruce, it is good to see you. We haven't seen each other for Gosh, it's three or four, maybe more years. And for all of the listeners, Dr. Jackie Bruce is an associate professor, I can't believe you aren't a (full) professor! I'm looking forward to that day. But she's an associate professor at NC State. She is in the Department of Agricultural. She is in the Department of Agriculture and Human Sciences. Is that correct Jackie Bruce?
Jackie Bruce 0:29
That is correct.
Scott Allen 0:30
That is it. Awesome. Awesome. Well, welcome. Thank you for being here today. Jackie is a mom, she is a professor. She is the editor of the Journal of leadership education. And Jackie, that must be going on seven, eight years now that you've served in that role.
Jackie Bruce 0:46
So it's funnily enough that you say that because, in three days, it will be eight years. So Oh, it's from today is eight years? Exactly. So that has been a fun conversation with folks. As lots of we've been having lots of conversations about the journal in the last few days, and what's happening with the journal. So it's been, it's given me time to pause and actually do the math about how long it's been. So yeah, in three days, it'll be eight years.
Scott Allen 1:19
That's a lot of journal articles read and reviewed. And well, and we'll get there, we'll get there because I want to hear your reflections on serving in that role, what you're seeing in the literature, what some opportunities in the literature are. But where I want to start, I don't think probably everyone knows about this whole stream of leadership, education that comes out of colleges of agriculture, and many of the land grant institutions. I know that you did your undergrad and your grad at Colorado State, and then you were at Texas A&M for your Ph.D., correct?
Jackie Bruce 1:56
That is correct. So I am a product of the land grant system.
Scott Allen 2:03
So tell listeners about leadership education out of colleges of agriculture. It's a fascinating topic.
Jackie Bruce 2:12
Yeah. So part of what makes the land grant system I think, so special is its commitment to taking the research that's happening at the university and putting it in the hands of the people to make lives better, right. It is the commitment to educate the citizens of the state, which I think is again, really close to my heart and is congruent with my own personal values. But the way that leadership happens, like why leadership in colleges of agriculture, to very popular questions, got so I'm glad we started here. It really began with Cooperative Extension agents. And when we think about extension agents, lots of people think back to Green Acres, right, and the county ag agent comes into the farm. What they don't realize is there were other agents doing other things, community development work. And part of that community development work was leadership, education, and leadership development. And so really, the roots of leadership development in colleges of agriculture come from that Cooperative Extension tradition, that community development tradition. And so that's where I got connected to it was when I started my doctoral program at Texas a&m was connecting with the folks in the colleges of agriculture that were doing leadership development.
Scott Allen 3:49
Well, so so you, because I think for you, a lot can start and Future Farmers of America FFA or in 4H. So were you involved in either of those as a child?
Jackie Bruce 4:00
Yes, I grew up in the 4H program. Um, my mom was adamant that her tiny, awkward eight-year-old child do something to make them less awkward. And so
Scott Allen 4:19
you are not awkward?
Jackie Bruce 4:21
Oh, Scott Allen, there are decades of photos and anecdotes to prove it. So I started in 4H and I spent as many years as they could until they kicked me out. And then I became a 4h leader for a while. And I think the thing that is so salient about those youth leadership opportunities is how long they stick with you. I can close my eyes as hokey as it sounds, I can close my eyes. And remember what it was like. The day that my 4H leader, I was eight, asked me to stand up in front of the entire 4H club and lead the 4H pledge. Wow. And I would have just as soon jump off a bridge than do that. And I remember my mother looking at me and being like, get up, get up and do the thing. Like, literally like pushing her tiny, awkward eight-year-old daughter off the bench at school that we were meeting at and standing up and doing that and having that moment and again, as hokey as it sounds, having that moment where I was like, wow, I really can do this and being surrounded by adults that really cared about my development as a person and as a leader, and being challenged to do things that were scary for my highly introverted self to do. And so I do think that continues to be in terms of that land grant mission. And leadership development. A significant part of that is that outreach with 4H, which is part of the land grant system, and then its counterpart FFA, which is part of the K through 12. system.
Scott Allen 6:30
Yeah. Well, that's wonderful. And so you, you then When, when, when did you decide that leadership was the area you wanted to focus on? What was that? What were those series of decisions? Or who? Who did you cross paths with that kind of nudged you in that direction? Because we all have mentors along the way?
Jackie Bruce 6:51
Yeah, so I think it was a couple of different spaces. So if you look at my CV, you see that I am a policy major, with my bachelor's degrees in political science. And so lots of people always say like, how did you get from political science to ag? Which I sort of joke about now. And it's not really all that funny that I use political science as much as I use my two degrees in agriculture and education, to help teach this thing we call leadership. Yeah, so part of it was just a rapt passionate love, for political science and for our democracy, and the study of our democracy and the study of our leaders in that democracy. And whether we're talking about Plato and Socrates or john Jacques Rousseau, in my political theory classes or listening to the speeches of President Kennedy, Martin Luther King. So I think that sort of deep, abiding passionate love for democracy was was the start, but I didn't know what the words were. I didn't. I didn't know that you could study leadership. And then yeah, I went out and I had, I had my life for a little while. And my real-world job. And then I went back because I knew that I wanted to be in the academy. I was inspired by amazing teachers and amazing professors. And so I knew that's where I wanted to be. And I got to Texas A&M, surrounded by lovely, wonderful, God knows patient people who allowed me to kind of explore. And then I took my first leadership class. And really, I wasn't even taking it. I was teaching it. And I remember sitting in this class as a teaching assistant (TA) because you know, when you're a good TA, you attend a class every day regularly, you set the standard for the students.
Scott Allen 9:01
Well, and Jackie, at Texas A&M, there's some big that there's a number of majors in these degrees, correct?
Jackie Bruce 9:07
Yeah. So there were, I think, more than 1000 undergrads. Yeah. So I was sitting in this class of like, 250 students as the TA, one of the TA, and the professor was lecturing about situational leadership. And all of a sudden, it just hit me, like a ton of bricks. Like, this is what I want to do. Like I was turning around, I was watching the students and I was watching their faces. Just sort of that aha moment, right? Yeah. And like, watching a tennis match, like I'm watching the professor, I'm watching the students. I'm watching the professor. I'm watching the students and I'm like this is it this is what I want to do for the whole of the rest of my life. And I was surrounded by people who said yes to me, who said yes, you can do this. Yes, you should do this. Yes, this is the way that you should go. And so I'm so Pite charted my path. And that way,
Scott Allen 10:09
I love, I love that you can kind of define the moment I had a similar experience. So my first boss really was my first significant supervisor out of undergrad. He, he led us through a book club, and we read the leadership challenge Kouzes and Posner. Right. And that was the first time I realized or understood that leadership was a topic that you could explore. And I'd had these leadership roles as an undergraduate and failed miserably in many instances, and was reflecting the consistently just oh, my gosh, this is a whole area of study, this is something we could explore. And I failed so badly at this, this and this, when I was just leading two years ago, in this organization. And I too, can kind of, I can reflect upon kind of that moment where it hit me that, oh, wow, there's a lot of energy here. I got to pay attention to that because I'm kind of really consumed right by this topic. And from then on, it just became a theme, it became a constant theme. And so then you have been, you know, the President of the Association of leadership educators, of course, you're serving as the editor of the Journal of leadership education, we're coming up on your eight-year anniversary, you have a really unique perspective, a bird's eye view on the field right now. And so what I would love to explore a little bit, is, what are some of the what are some themes you're seeing? And then what are some opportunities that you think are potentially being missed? Maybe we have some listeners who, who are starting their careers in academia, maybe we have some listeners who want to pursue a career in writing, what are some of those opportunities that you see in the field right now that may be lacking, we're missing?
Jackie Bruce 12:06
Sure. Oh, this is a big responsibility, Scott. And I'm so glad that I listened to other podcasts to know that this was coming. I have been uniquely fortunate in being able to serve on the board for the Association of leadership educators. And now in the role of journal editor in that, I do get to see both sides sort of of the coin, even though I don't really see it that way. You know, so many people think you're either practicing, you're a practitioner, or you're a researcher, I don't think that's true. I think it's less and less true every day. As a matter of fact, I think, what excites me the most about what I see lately, what I think is coming in the future. And what I also think is an opportunity is that we are wrestling? Finally, with this question, leadership for what? And, for me, I think that is a unique opportunity for us, as educators, as scholars, as practitioners, for all of us that were all of those hats in lots of different ways to have that conversation to trouble that discourse, if you will, and, and really start to dig into the answer to that question. I'm seeing and it's exciting. So much work, coming in the DNI space related to leadership education, and that is such important work, we need more of it, we need more people doing that work. That is the work of every person. Um, all of us need to be in that space. And so it's exciting that that's happening. I think one of the unique things that I'm seeing from the editor's perspective is that those conversations are also creeping into assessment conversations. You know, assessment has always been robust. You know, that, Scott, we've always been talking about assessment, right? How do we make sure that we, that we're doing what we're saying we're doing in our programs and in our classrooms, and I think one of the things that I'm seeing that's exciting is that the DNI space is creeping into those Assessment spaces. So we're talking about different ways of knowing doing and being. We're talking about decolonizing spaces, which is exciting. So I see that as a huge opportunity. Certainly, a huge trend that I'm seeing right now. And that's just really exciting to me.
Scott Allen 15:24
Well, I imagine when you sat in that course, we were at Texas a&m, where you were a TA, I'm imagining this is the 90s.
Jackie Bruce 15:34
Yeah, right. Yes, yes.
Scott Allen 15:36
Okay. So yeah, you're hearing the kind of traditional theorists, whether that's Bass, whether that's Burns, whether that's Blanchard, whether that's Fiedler, you know, the kind of the founders of the field in many ways. The problem with the founders, quote, unquote, of the field, in many ways, is that they were all of one perspective. And that's limiting in my statement, I don't mean to, to, to grossly generalize, but they were all white males, providing their perspective on what leadership is, and how we create this larger tent for more voices from very different places about what leadership is, I think, only strengthens our understanding holistically of this topic, because quite honestly, it's happening in gains in Chicago. It's happening in the Middle East and Yemen. It's happening, people are influencing others towards a common vision all over the world for good, bad, or ill. And it's happening, and having diverse perspectives, trying to understand and make sense of that. I don't see a downside to it. I don't see a downside. I mean, it makes things much more complicated and complex, because the topic is complex. But so what you're saying resonates with me for sure.
Jackie Bruce 17:06
And I think the other thing that's really exciting to me is the conversations happening around how we know what we know. Hmm. And what we have this conversation in a graduate course that I teach, how do you know what you know? How do you know you know, it?
Scott Allen 17:27
Jackie, it's 8:30 in the morning, I haven't had my coffee yet. And you're asking me these big questions.
Jackie Bruce 17:33
My graduate students say it's six o'clock to they're like, come on the day, always time for a good meta question. But like, how do we know what we know. And I think one of the most exciting things that I'm seeing is an embrace of, and a validation of that, not that we needed to validate it because it's always been valid. But an acknowledgment of there is different ways of knowing. And so hearing from indigenous leaders, hearing from leaders from cultures that are not highly capitalistic cultures, is so incredibly important, as we, as you said, add these perspectives to a complex, nuanced conversation about how we influence people towards that common goal. And I think that's really exciting. I mean, it's incredibly exciting.
Scott Allen 18:39
Yep. Yep, you're exactly right. One, what else? What else are you seeing as themes? Or Jackie, as opportunities? As you kind of look across what you're experiencing right now?
Jackie Bruce 18:53
Yeah. So I think the other thing that I'm seeing is a lot of questions around. How do we do what we do? Hmm.
Scott Allen 19:06
Jackie, now you're How do we know what we know? And how do we do what we do? That's what I'm going to call this podcast episode. I love that question, though. Okay, say more.
Jackie Bruce 19:20
So, again, I remember being that 4H member, right, and doing all of the leadership activities, the games, and the projects, and having the very short debrief period because you know, you can't debrief deeply with eight-year-olds, and then moving into a doctoral program and, and talking about pedagogy and talking about how we teach this. And balancing that with all we know about the experience and what experience teaches us and how do we bring in people's lived experiences and so what I'm seeing Now and again, I'm seeing a little bit of it. I hope we see more of it is work that answers that question, how do we do what we do? What is what are the best ways that as the conversations become more complex that as the world becomes closer, the as the problems become more nuanced, the old stuff maybe doesn't fit anymore. And we have to take off the comfortable sweater, the comfortable cardigan, shout out to Taylor Swift, and the Comfortable Cardigan. And do something different, try something different. And those educators that are out there doing things differently. I had a conversation with someone in the before times when you could be together with people. And I had a conversation with an educator who was talking about being able to match biometrics with learning. So they weren't actually taking biometric data in on their learners as these folks were going through their program. And they were trying to match, right moments in time. And I was like, That is amazing. Like, let me hear more about that, um, to try to harness some data from that I know there are folks doing work, right with eye contact, and the impact of eye contact and the cultural implications of that. So, and not just the physical things, right? The biometric data and those kinds of things. But I think anything that helps us answer the question, how do we do what we do? And how do we do it better? And how are we meeting the needs of this increasingly more diverse and complex audience that should know and should hear, right, this message of anyone can be a leader. And I think that's what continues to resonate with me, Scott is that as we continue to ask those questions, we continue to reinforce the message that I still get really excited about when I teach the intro class, right. And we talked about the evolution of how we think about leadership. The moment when we acknowledge that anybody can be a leader is huge, it's why we have jobs, right? It's why leadership educators have jobs, which is not only the exciting part, but it is the acknowledgment that anybody can do this. Everybody should do this. So how do we make sure that everybody is getting the kind of message that resonates with them and inspires them and moves them? So I? Yeah, I think that's the other exciting peace?
Scott Allen 23:02
Well, as you are speaking, I was thinking of a couple of different things. So I'm recording a podcast with David Snowden and Mary Boone. And they wrote an article that was in Harvard Business Review in 2007. And Jackie, it's one of those articles that I just go back to a couple of times a year. And they've been gracious enough because we had some technical challenges to re-record. But they, they look at the article was called a leaders framework for decision making. And they very nicely kind of delineate different types of problems that leaders address. So you have simple, you have complicated, you have complex, and then you have chaotic. And so that what they're what their work is made me start to think about, okay, well, what are the levels of leader leadership development? Because we need to prepare individuals to know when they're navigating something that's complicated, and kind of how to conceptualize what's their mental representation or their framework for at least beginning to approach that, versus a chaotic challenge or a complex challenge, because they're totally different. You know, Heifetz would call them technical problems and adaptive challenges. I mean, that's, that's his language for that same thing. But how all of that is scaffolded so that we can help learners increase their complexity and how they think about some of what they're facing. I think it's invaluable. And then, so so I think of that I think of what are the levels? And are we truly preparing people to navigate some of those different levels to where they need to lock and help the work of the group move forward? And then David Day on this podcast, it was really interesting. I was speaking with him about leadership development, and he had this quote, he said, you want to invest in your development because everybody needs to be a leader, even when they are not the leader. So do we, you know, you may not have the position of authority, quote-unquote. But to your point, everyone can serve as a leader, even if it's in brief moments where I stand up and influence the direction of the group. And back to your other point of the why. Hopefully, that's influencing us towards a moral, an ethically grounded, a kind of holistic needs of the many, you know, perspective or direction, then one that is just concerned with my own needs. And my own bottom line, so to speak.
Jackie Bruce 25:42
Yeah, just the whole equitable liberated community.
Unknown Speaker 25:48
Yes.
Jackie Bruce 25:49
That's the point. I hope that's the point.
Scott Allen 25:52
Yeah, say more about that, because that's beautifully spoken. That you just said the why in part. Oh, why?
Jackie Bruce 26:00
Yeah. So here's my soapbox. But I try not to get on very much. But I do. I will. I will get on the soapbox for just a second. For me, when I think about why we do this, why do I go into the classroom every day, to educate young people on leadership? Why do we talk about why it's important? And for me, the Why is so that we are creating a more equitable, more just more liberated community. That's the point that we meet the challenge, not just to improve the bottom line, as you said, but so that every single person can be the people they were meant to be. Yeah. That's the point. If what we do as leaders, and it doesn't matter, if you are the president of your sorority or fraternity or the president of a Fortune 500 company, you should be acknowledging that your work as a leader is meant to create a more equitable system, wherever that system is, acknowledging that people are coming to us, in this community that we are in, in very different ways, and it is our job as leaders to create a path forward, that is equitable, that is just and allows them to thrive. That's the point. That's the point. Yeah, point for me anyway.
Scott Allen 27:58
Well, you know from a Maslow's Hierarchy standpoint, how do we help people self-actualize? How do we help people, you know, begin with a foundation where the base level needs are met? That's another level of this kind of conversation to how do we help people have the basics and then provide that love and belongingness. So that they can tap into like that moment you spoke of in talking about situational leadership. And the moment I spoke of talking about Kouzes and Posner, where and for other people's at something else? But tap into that energy that I think each one of us has, each one of us has that energy, that's it. And you know, as a parent, I think about, I think about, can I help my children, my wife and I, can we help our children tap into whatever it is, they're meant to be here and we're going to explore, we're going to experiment, we're going to kind of look in a lot of different nooks and crannies to see what that is for you. And if we can help them with that process, I think a good percentage of the work is done. But there's How about literally, whether it's urban America or rural America or anywhere else in the world, there are large numbers of people who are tapping into that energy. I think they're far from that that place. Does that make sense? That maybe level needs so I love what you're saying because if at least, at least we are working towards getting human beings to at least the level set to a certain place where to say that say those three again.
Jackie Bruce 29:42
It's a more equitable or more just any liberated community. Okay.
Scott Allen 29:47
Okay.
Jackie Bruce 29:49
And I think, you know, my k 12, educator, friends use the phrase you got to Maslow before you can bloom right? The idea that we have to have I mean, those basic needs, right? Kids have to feel they have to be fed and sheltered and clothed. They have to feel like they belong. Right? They have to feel secure. And then we can start teaching them reading writing and arithmetic. Yeah, it is, it is no different for anybody in a leadership role to acknowledge that that is also their job. It is your job as a leader to look out for the people that you are trying to influence and recognize what they need. Recognize that, that not everybody is coming to the table from the same place. And so yeah, I, Scott, I have to tell you it's the one thing I think that energizes me and keeps me up at night, that we're not doing enough. We're not doing enough in those areas. We're not having enough of those conversations. We got to have more. We just have to have more. We have to keep talking about it. And we have to confront ourselves. I think so many times. We are we educators are reticent to acknowledge that. We haven't done the best job in this. We haven't been cognizant of this, because you can't know back to what I said before. You can't know what you don't know. Right? Yeah, yeah. But know better do better. As the great Maya Angelou said, right. And we know these things. Now. We have to do better now. Yep. Yeah.
Scott Allen 31:42
I think it's a very, I think it's a very interesting space in time that we're in. It's a transitionary time. It's an important time. And, Jackie, I have loved this conversation. I'm gonna wind us down right here because I want people, to leave this conversation reflecting on what we've just had a conversation about because I think it's critical. I really do. And I just wrote a paper with a couple of co-authors, Dave Rosch and Ron Riggio. And we were it within the context of this paper, we kind of look to, and you've seen this work done 1000 times, you know, 23 of the top 25 business schools tout leadership as their mission, vision, or purpose. And yet, we don't have research from really anywhere, kind of touting the incredible leaders we've created. If we did we'd, the research would be out there. And we would have published it. And we would have the conclusive evidence that yes, we, in fact, did that. So I think, I think we can improve, and we have to look within and look at the current system and what it's yielding. And, you know, what do we need to shift and adjust and alter to get somewhere new? And that's not only in how we teach? But that's the why question. That's so much, I think what we just discussed is in the in-baked into that whole conversation, the assessment, all of it, right.
Jackie Bruce 33:20
Absolutely. And, again, I go back to my question earlier, leadership for what? Yep. What's the point? What? Why do we do this? Yeah. And we have to be able to answer that question.
Scott Allen 33:41
Yep. Okay, Jackie, I am excited about this part. What have you been listening to streaming? Watching reading could have to do a leadership doesn't have to do with leadership. But what would you like to draw our listener's attention to?
Jackie Bruce 33:59
So my work? For much of the last few years, my work has been at the intersection of leadership and the DEI space. So I read a lot in that DNI space. I am continually inspired by the work of Dr. Kendi, How to Be an Anti-Racist. My 12-year-old and I listened to the audiobook over the summer together, we continue to have conversations about that. Anything by candy is, is fantastic. And I go back to it regularly. I am inspired by the work of Angela Davis, particularly women's race and class, which continues to be evergreen in the best and worst of ways. So two things I often send out to my graduate students as well. And tell them you need to read this before we can start talking about leadership education. In terms of leadership literature, I give a shout-out to our colleague, John Dugan. I am using his book in my graduate-level class and I have students so many times Tell me particularly those students who go through the undergraduate leadership program and then come into that class where we deconstruct and reconstruct all of those foundational theories and tell me that I wrecked them in the best ways by having them read Dugan. So I think that is a must-read. And then from a purely personal, it doesn't have anything to do with the Academy. I'm listening to a podcast called coffee break Italian because I am. I'm half Italian. And my grandparents and my mom spoke Italian at home. But now those folks are gone, and I feel the need to reconnect with that. So I'm trying to learn Italian as best I can. So I'm listening to Coffee Break Italian, which is charming and fascinating. And like I said, I'm a political junkie, so anything from Crooked Media, makes me laugh and gives me hope. Particularly the Pod Save America, guys. Um, yeah, so those are that's what's happening. That's what's in my ears. I guess.
Scott Allen 37:13
I love that. Dr. Jckie Bruce! Thank you so much. wonderful conversation. Great way to start my day.
Jackie Bruce 37:21
Absolutely. Thank you for this opportunity. Scott. It's always good to see you. It's always good to connect. So I appreciate this.
Scott Allen 37:27
Thank you. Thank you be well!
Jackie Bruce 37:28
Thanks, you too.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai