As one of the inaugural faculty members of the Jepson School of Leadership Studies at the University of Richmond, one of the first institutions in the world with a multidisciplinary faculty devoted to the study of leadership, Dr. Gill Hickman joined forces with her colleagues to build a leadership studies program from the ground up. She is a former board member of the International Leadership Association and the recipient of several awards, including the ILA's Leadership Legacy Lifetime Achievement Award and the University of Richmond's Distinguished Educator Award. She has authored many publications including Leading Organizations: Perspectives for a New Era and Leading Change in Multiple Contexts, Invisible Leadership, and her most recent book, When Leaders Face Personal Crisis: The Human Side of Leadership.
Connecting with Gill
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
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As one of the inaugural faculty members of the Jepson School of Leadership Studies at the University of Richmond, one of the first institutions in the world with a multidisciplinary faculty devoted to the study of leadership, Dr. Gill Hickman joined forces with her colleagues to build a leadership studies program from the ground up. She is a former board member of the International Leadership Association and the recipient of several awards, including the ILA's Leadership Legacy Lifetime Achievement Award and the University of Richmond's Distinguished Educator Award. She has authored many publications including Leading Organizations: Perspectives for a New Era and Leading Change in Multiple Contexts, Invisible Leadership, and her most recent book, When Leaders Face Personal Crisis: The Human Side of Leadership.
Connecting with Gill
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Connect with Scott Allen
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate.
Scott Allen 0:02
Goodday, everyone. Today I have Dr. Gill Hickman with me and I am so excited for this conversation. We've had a pre conversation, we kind of charted a course. And I think it's gonna be a really, really fun conversation. I think it's going to be an interesting conversation. I think it's going to be a very, very important conversation. And Gill is Professor Emeritus. Did I pronounce that correctly? Gill Emeritus? Emerita. Emerita, okay! Emerita. From the University of Richmond. She was a founding faculty member at the Jepson School of Leadership. She is a shining light in leadership studies. She has published textbooks, she has published books, she has published journal articles, she has won awards. She is the bee's knees! And so today, we are going to explore a few different topics. But Gill, what blanks can we fill in what what do other listeners need to know about you what other facts and figures?
Gill Hickman 1:06
Well, there are a lot of things going on. I have had a long career I've had actually, I was telling my grandchild the other day, I've had three different careers. I started as an administrator. And while I was going through the Ph.D. program, I was an administrator in Human Resource Management in higher education. Ah, and so when I finished, I was recruited onto the faculty because I had been teaching for free. Oh, and my department chair and dean came over and said, "Look, you know, you've been teaching public administration courses for free. Why don't you consider the faculty?" And I thought this is crazy! Anything you do for free should be something you should consider for your career. So they graciously gave me a year to come over and try it out as a visiting professor, and then I actually apply for the permanent position. And that's where I got started in teaching in public administration. And when I came to Richmond, I was looking for another position. My husband was relocated here to Richmond. And the Jepson School was just recruiting faculty. They had four faculty on board. They were they hadn't open, officially, and so I came on the faculty, the inaugural year, and all the courses were just listed on paper. Nobody had taught them.
Scott Allen 2:55
They were theory at the point, right?
Gill Hickman 2:57
They were theory!. So we literally started from scratch.
Scott Allen 3:03
Oh, wow. Wow. Well, I was reflecting this morning, that one of my faculty members at Antioch was Richard Couto. And I was reflecting this morning on how well prepared I felt, because of what he came from out of Jepson. He did such a wonderful job of helping us become really steeped in the literature, whether that was Burns, or whether that was sacred texts, or Plato, or you know, it was just. And so if that's a hint of what students who are experiencing a Jepson, I mean, it's just such an incredibly valuable experience. And so what one thing I'd love to chat with you about is talking about, can you think about the roots of where you became interested in this topic of leadership? How's that path been for you?
Gill Hickman 3:59
Yes, I'd be happy to talk about that. But let me just say, I love Richard Couto, Dick Couto. I miss him so much. I still use so many of the things that I learned from him. And I just wish he were still with us. But he is in many ways, so thank you for bringing him up. My roots in Leadership Studies really started as a teenager. At the time, of course, I didn't realize it but being a teenager right in the middle of the civil rights movement in Birmingham, Alabama taught me a tremendous amount about leadership. At the time, I didn't realize it but people in Birmingham were joining in the movement and especially teenagers and young people like I was at the time, because everyone really had the same focus. We knew what the problem was, we have been searching for a way to penetrate that problem and issue. And at the beginning of the civil rights movement, children and teenagers like me were just willing to go out and join in. Because we realized that if we didn't, who would? So at that point, I was really involved in leadership and didn't know it. I was trying daring things, scaring my parents to death. As soon as, as soon as they said that the buses were integrated, for example, of course, we were doing a bus boycott, and an economic boycott - we were not buying anything we didn't have to. But as soon as they integrated the buses, I thought, I'm going to try this. I mean, I didn't take buses anywhere my parents didn't, they were in a position where they could drive me wherever I wanted to go. But I just wanted to do it for the sake of it to prove that it should be done. And I got on with a friend and we sat on the front seat. And people started talking about us and saying we didn't belong there. And literally, a woman hit me with her umbrella and told me to move and get off. And I did not do it. But it was really a hostile environment, but one that we were willing to face because the consequences were so strong. So it probably is one of the reasons that I finally did wind up in public administration because it prepares you to lead in the public sector. And I did not well, Leadership Studies was really not in fashion by that point. And, and especially not in public administration at that point. But I always had this drive to change something. And I'd like to change things from the inside.
Scott Allen 7:21
Would you tell us a couple of stories about things you experienced? I mean, that the story of the buses a beautiful story, - "we're gonna go try this out." What were some other things that you witnessed firsthand that I mean, one of the highlights of my doctoral program was we had Fred Shuttlesworth and Fred Shuttlesworth had a book called "A Fire You Can't Put Out. And he came and spoke to us. And we could get into a long conversation about him because it was so fascinating, Gill because when he spoke with us, he really didn't perceive himself as a leader having done any of it. It was just God working through him. And so it was really fascinating, because when we would say when you did this, what were you thinking? It's I wasn't thinking anything. I was just a vessel for God. And so it was a really interesting conversation to hear from him and to hear that perspective. But what are some other stories or experiences you had in that time that stand out for you? Where you witnessed good, bad, horrible leadership?
Gill Hickman 8:29
Yes, well, Fred Shuttlesworth, obviously, is an icon. They have renamed the airport after him actually.
Scott Allen 8:39
I didn't know that.
Gill Hickman 8:41
And they have a whole exhibit on the civil rights movement in the airport, as well as a whole Civil Rights Museum. We, I witnessed everything. When I started school, in Birmingham, it was segregated. And we had only segregated schools, we had all black teachers, all black students. We couldn't even go to the school closest to our neighborhood. We actually had to be bused out of our neighborhood to go to the nearest black high school. So I really got to witness everything about segregation, the intimidation from the police. I mean, even when I went to get my driver's license, the police were so hostile. And I was 16, and not expecting hostile police to really try to intimidate me while I was getting my driver's license. But my parents had a brand new car. It was kind of fancy, and the policeman got in and I could tell already, he was just in a hostile mood. And on top of that, he said that I had a strange accent. Where was I from? Well, I had been in a boarding school, when I was 16. I got a scholarship to a boarding school. So he said, "Where are you from?" And I said "Here!" and he said, Well, why don't you have that accent? Well, I've been away from school. Well, none of that set well with him. So he was so intimidating that I actually failed my driver's test, I was just really so shaken, but by his attitude. So you're always knowing that you're going to be intimidated by the police. And you usually are ready for that, but not during your driver's test. One other thing that I did during that time, I couldn't march because I had been in the hospital had been really sick during that time. And subsequently, I found out I had a chronic disease of lupus. And my parents just would not let me participate in the marches. But I tried to do everything else that I could. So the first day they said, the lunch counters were integrated in Birmingham in the stores, unbeknownst to my parents, I decided, I'm going to sit down at the lunch counter, and if they serve me, I will go buy some shoes. If they don't serve me, I'm going home. So the first day, nobody knows I'm going to do this, I go into this department store sit down at the lunch counter, and everything just kind of comes to a standstill. I mean, nobody says anything, everybody's looking at each other. I ordered something, nobody stopped me. They serve me. And it was interesting that there were black cooks in the back, and I could see them through the window. And they were giving me the thumbs up while I was doing this, and so I was very excited about that I didn't think about being fearful or that somebody might do something to me kind of like Fred Shuttlesworth that just felt, look, this is the right thing to do. And sell they serve me, I left. I went and bought my shoes and went home and told my parents and they almost had a heart attack. They started calling the family - "Guess what Gill did today?" Oh, my goodness. So you know, as he said, it just seems like a normal thing to do. But then my family members were so shocked because this was dangerous during those times. So there are a lot of stories about the civil rights movement. But as Fred would say, you didn't think you were doing leadership. And I only was able to appreciate that after I got into Leadership Studies and started looking at, okay, what type of leadership was that?
Scott Allen 13:04
Let's talk about that. Because you've written about Invisible Leadership. Your book with Georgia Sorenson, you've written about common purpose. And maybe we can even apply it to that context if that's the direction we could go in. But I would love to go there right now. Talk about how that informed some of your that experience informed some of your thinking.
Gill Hickman 13:35
Right. It influenced me totally. I mean, it really formed my whole attitude about leadership and how people participate, and how important the whole process is, in terms of leaders and participants, for leadership to work. And in looking back once I got into the Jepson school and Leadership Studies, I realized that our involvement in the civil rights movement was so powerful because of the purpose that we saw believed in and were inspired by the purpose that we were, we were really, really willing to lead or follow. It didn't matter which one as long as we were advancing the purpose. And Georgia Sorenson and I were at the Kellogg Leadership Studies project. When we were all talking about leadership with James McGregor, Burns, and all the other scholars, and people were arguing about the leader and what the role of the leader is, and on and on and Georgia and I looked at each other and said, "we're kind of sick of this argument. We're all focused on the leader. What about, what about everybody else? What about people being inspired? Because they really believe in what they're doing?" And that's that was the start of our conversation about the common purpose as the leader, in other words, invisible leadership.
Scott Allen 15:21
Well, and even as you're saying that and I think about a couple of the stories you've shared, I mean, one, one kind of basic definition of leadership, there's many, but we could talk about leadership being the process of influencing others towards a common vision. So let's just try that on for size for the sake of this conversation, but we could get into, to your point seven, we could make a seven-hour podcast about but you sitting in the front of the bus, inspiring others towards a common vision, people walked on the bus and saw you did you inspire others? That could be me. You sat at the counter, inspiring others towards a common vision, those cooks went home that night and told their family, others saw you kind of putting yourself out there. And even though you couldn't march, you believed in the purpose so strongly, that you contributed in the ways that you could, which is incredible. I mean, that's, I have goosebumps, that's just so wonderful. Right?
Gill Hickman 16:27
Well, you know, I could, I could say inspiring others. And I totally believe that that is one-way leadership works. I mean, so the way that Georgia and I looked at it does not exclude all the other ways that leadership works. But for me, it wasn't so much of being inspired by Martin Luther King. It was being inspired by the experiences we had had under segregation. And knowing that the purpose of releasing us from that experience so that we could participate fully in this society was so important. It was so important that my parents and my counselors got me out of Birmingham, to go to boarding school because Alabama schools were 49th out of the 50 states. And I don't think I would be here now if someone had not had the vision to get me into a program that got me into boarding school. So yes, I would say it's possible that I could have inspired others. But what inspired me was that strong purpose, and I think, sometimes people do come together and inspire others, to lead toward a common purpose or whatever. But in my case, it really was knowing, having strong experiences with reality. Let me just tell you one more story about that's reality started. I was born in Baltimore, and my parents divorced when I was three. And we moved - my mom is from Alabama. So we came back to Alabama after my mom's divorce. And in Baltimore, I was, she would take me out and we'd go, sometimes we'd be at the drugstore, and I'd pop up on the counter and get some ice cream. And so one day in Birmingham, we were in the Rexall Drug Store, and I popped up on this, the store to get some ice cream. And this, the lady behind the counter started screaming at my mother, "get her off of there, get her off of there!" And I'm looking at my mother and I'm looking at her, and I don't understand what's going on. And just to find out that no black people could be served at the lunch at the counter.
Scott Allen 19:05
It's unconscionable today, it's...I can't even begin to think about it.
Gill Hickman 19:11
It was such a common experience that if you go to the civil rights Institute, the first exhibit you see is the Rexall drug counter. I mean, I was just blown away by how, how many people have had that same experience. And it's just to a child of like, four something I just was, I was stunned. I just didn't know what to make of that. So having had those experiences from a very young age, really, nobody had to tell me that I should be a part of this movement. It and, you know, with Georgia, and I did our study in his power of invisible leadership. We thought that you know, it's not just movements that people get inspired by a common purpose, but organizations can do that as well, businesses, nonprofits, and we decided to explore that because, in an ILA conference where we were having a discussion about the common purpose, Dick Couto as a matter of fact said, "Well, I can see how that works in social movements, but I just can't see that in organizations." And we thought, No, no, no, that can happen. And so we had to prove it. And it was a good thing, because we, our ILA colleagues, put us to the test, and we, we took them up on that. And we found out about an organization called worldblu.com. Okay. And www.worldblu.com, awards companies for having democratic leadership in their organizations. And we thought, well, this might be a place where we can find the common purpose as a leader. We didn't know that for sure. But we thought they had a lot of characteristics that we had described as having a powerful common purpose. Well, we were 100%, right, in that we got access to 20 companies, we developed the survey instrument, this survey instrument proved to be very strong. And there were these companies, these amazing companies that had such motivating common purposes that many people said they joined the organization because the organization's purpose aligned with their own purpose. Yes. So it was another place and Jepson school was like that. For me. It was another place that totally aligned with who I am as a person, and so it is very possible to have this kind of leadership, even in a business not to mention nonprofit or universities.
Scott Allen 22:09
So did you go back to Dick Couto and say "Hey, why don't you write the foreword here, buddy? We did some poking and guess what? You're writing the forward!"
Gill Hickman 22:24
No, but we did collaborate on another book that I did on leadership in multiple contexts. And we talked about leading change in organizations in social movements in global environments. And he and I asked him to write one of the chapters. So when we wrote the introductory chapter together, actually.
Scott Allen 22:52
well, and you and you write about, at least in an article that I read from Jepson, that, in these contexts, the leadership and followership roles are fluid, you may be moments in the role of leader informally, but then you might move back into a follower. And so would you talk a little bit about that? The fluidity of things?
Gill Hickman 23:15
Yeah, this is exactly...this goes back to my origins of the civil rights movement, where this is exactly the kind of leadership I saw moving back and forth among people. I mean, and I think about, I remember this so well, that my parents would pick people up, walking down the street going to work when we were boycotting the buses. And I thought the cooperation from the common person during that time of not riding the buses when they absolutely needed to get to work was an act of leadership. I mean, and the fact that my parents had cars, and they would pick up other people and take them to work so that they didn't have to ride the bus. Those were acts of leadership - because everybody knew what the common purpose was. And they did whatever they could to help that out. So you would see, maybe a Fred Shuttlesworth, who was a leader, also driving down the street to pick up people to take them to work. I mean, it was just a very fluid arrangement. And people could make decisions without, usually without asking other people, but sometimes in collaboration with them, but make decisions that they knew would advance the common purpose. And I was just kind of blown away by that. And by the way, Mary Parker Follett was the first person to come up with that term back in the 20s - in 1928. So when we were doing and she was so far ahead of her time, I mean, I just love this woman's writing. I was exposed to it in the doctoral program. When we were researching this whole concept, she described it perfectly in her writings, where she had gone into a company. This wasn't a social movement, she had gone into a company and witness workers being so supportive of the common purpose that they were taking leadership as well.
Scott Allen 25:30
Well, that reminds me of a book - it was a similar spirit to good to great, but it was called firms of endearment. And it's these organizations where, you know, it's a, it's a Patagonia where we are donating all of our Black Friday sales to, to the environment, and where people are so motivated by the purpose of the organization, the values of the organization, what the organization stands for, that that becomes a driving force, for their motivation. It's not a person or an individual. It's this is our mission, this is what we are trying to achieve and striving for. So whether it's something like Jepson where it just aligned beautifully with your values, or maybe people who are working on the Sustainable Development Goals or in organizations like Patagonia, it was interesting, because these firms were outperforming the Good to Great companies, by a lot. Because again, you know, whether it's like TOMS shoes or other organizations that really had that spirit about them. And I think you also wrote about the orchestra. What's the orchestra?
Gill Hickman 26:48
Orpheus Chamber Orchestra?
Scott Allen 26:50
Talk a little bit about that.
Gill Hickman 26:52
Oh, that's so motivating to me, every time I actually make a presentation on invisible leadership, I play a piece from them. And, and actually, they go on to talk about how, without a designated leader, they are able to inspire all of the people who are in the orchestra to want to strive for this goal of playing music at its best, and bringing out the talents of each orchestra member. And remember, they have Richard Hackman, who has done all this work, who did all this work on teams. And he talks about how he uses that in his classroom, to teach his students about how one motivates and leads through having such an inspiring purpose. And the Orpheus Orchestra is incredible, I've seen them in person. And you don't, you don't see a conductor get up, you just see them kind of look at each other in having cues...and you look at, they have a critical group that comes and it's a different one for each piece that they decide to develop, but they have a critical mass that starts out presenting or putting together the way a piece should go, and then as they refine it, they bring in more and more members of the orchestra, and then they play different roles with each other. Sometimes they're the critics, and they're playing for each other and say, "let's try it this way." And it comes out even better because of all that talented input, which is something that I've always tried to inspire organizations to do. I mean, I think there's so much wasted talent in an organization when they don't allow people to use their full potential and they don't draw from that. And I think Orpheus is just a great inspiration for that idea.
Scott Allen 29:07
Or tap into that "charisma of purpose" that the two of you write about. Would you talk a little bit about that? That charisma of purpose, and we've been dancing around all of that, but this is all right, you know?
Gill Hickman 29:19
Well, I remember the late Steve Jobs, he had a lot of issues, but I think he was right on this. And he was saying that when they invented the Macintosh, they had this special team. And he was saying, we didn't just want the Macintosh to be a great computer. Our goal is to change the way people see computing and what people can imagine doing with it. And I thought, okay, that's an inspiring purpose and the Macintosh team. I know if you go back and look at the original It's of them putting together the Macintosh. They're so excited. I mean, they're talking to each other all the time about it. They're exchanging information. They're just excited to see it work. And that's and that's also the way we were in the Jepson School. I mean, we saw believed in his purpose and what it could do and how it could change students, and how students could be different people in the world, no matter what field they went into, that we were working all the time. When we first started, we were in there on Sundays. And, and it's so hard to explain the excitement in an organization when you were working in that way because you're not only working for yourself, but you're constantly working with each other and exchanging ideas. And as, one of the people said, in our survey, that you actually become friends, and you're in you become people you want to hang out with inside and outside the organization. It just changes the whole dynamic. It's so hard to explain until you see it in action. But not only were we there every day, including Sundays, because we had a million courses to bring up from scratch. But
Scott Allen 31:29
You were writing the texts books, weren't you?
Gill Hickman 31:30
We didn't have textbooks. So we were having to write our own textbooks. If you could see us yelling across the hall to each other from our offices. You know, we, we weren't thinking about whether that look professional, I was like, hey, Tom, are you gonna? What are you gonna teach today? Are you gonna use this? Do you have something I could borrow? I mean, it was so fluid. And there was you just didn't have competition you have people so willing to learn with and from each other. That's what charisma of purpose really does in an organization.
Scott Allen 32:31
Gill, can you think of some contemporary examples that have stood out for you that you see through the lens of your work?
Gill Hickman 32:39
Well, let's see. We did, we did write about not only the Orpheus Orchestra, and actually, when I do presentations, I show them a little film from the Jepson's School's 20th anniversary, where we talk about our own actions. there's a large company that deals with kidney dialysis called DaVita. And it's so people asked us can this really works in large companies, and DaVita has 1000s of kidney dialysis offices around the country and some around the world. And they were actually failing, they were about to close. And the owners decided to have a town meeting and call together all the employees to decide how they could continue. And the input of all the employees coming together to develop this common purpose. They're like, Look, we're here DaVita actually means giving life we are here to give life to people through our services. And, and they moved from there to have all the employees give input into how they could survive. And not only did they survive, but they really thrived as a company. But they kept this townhall concept and this concept where everybody came to give their input to, to keep the company going and to be inspired by their purpose. And so that's a large company, that that makes that work with all the facilities throughout the country.
Scott Allen 34:30
Well, that charisma, that purpose, that invisible leadership, it's such an interesting way to think about it. And the stories you shared at the beginning of our discussion are so important. And even, even as you're telling the story of those early days at Jepson, I mean, you light up and you're, you're animated and you're smiling and you can tell that you've felt that I mean intensely and I have felt That in an organization, I felt that, and I've not felt that at times, and there's a stark difference, there is a stark difference.
Gill Hickman 35:24
People in the leadership roles really have to develop a lot of confidence, they have to have a lot of trust in the people that they are hiring, it has a lot to do with, with the, with hiring people also who are, are really interested in carrying out that common purpose, and people that we interviewed in these organizations, I'm sorry, we didn't interview anybody actually, we sent out open if we started with open-ended questionnaires, and I have never seen anybody write that much information back. Back to the people who are doing questionnaires! I mean, people were so into what they were writing us, agents, there was so much to draw from that we did a whole chapter just on things that they told us. But it really is something that once you experienced it, you don't want to go back into an organization that doesn't do that. And I think even an organization that makes widgets can figure out what it is about what they do and what they can do for the world that can inspire them. But they usually don't sit down and do it. And people are more interested in control than they are finding all of the qualities that and things that people can offer to the organization. But once you open up, because I've experimented with it, even in bureaucratic organizations, as a human resource director, when I came into my office, I decided that, you know, everybody, I don't care what their role was, was going to contribute, and was going to be involved in decision making and how the whole operation was going to run, and we'd have, we'd have these retreats, before retreats were in style, oh, where everybody came brought together, what there what they had to achieve what they wanted to achieve, and what the obstacles were. And you would see, after we did this for a while you would see the receptionist problem solving with one of the personnel analysts, or giving them the information I know of an organization that does this call so and so. And they were telling me for the first time, they understood what everybody did in the organization. And we were experimenting with giving people more and more things to do that they were interested in doing. And it just, it just changed the whole dynamic. So you can do that even in your own unit if even if the whole organization is not doing it.
Scott Allen 38:17
Yeah, I mean, we can find that purpose among our small team of what maybe we can control versus feeling like we have to create that within the whole organization of 60,000 people or something. I mean, I think I couldn't agree with you more. I think that can be facilitated. It's about Kathy Allen who wrote just this beautiful article. I'm not gonna say the title correctly, but it was about energy optimization. And but it was all about are you unleashing the energy of the people and getting them to move in a common direction? Or is that energy kind of squashed? I mean, it was such a powerful, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. And I'll put a link to invisible leadership in the show notes and the orchestra. I will put a link to that so people can check that out as well. What have you been watching that has caught your eye in recent months?
Gill Hickman 39:29
Well, you know, I, I only do podcasts kind of off and on, you know, like Ted Talks and things like that. But I read a lot of biographies and memoirs. And I'm currently actually reading President Obama's memoirs on his first term in office. Yes. So but that's the kind of thing I love. I just love real stories about how people got where they are how they think. What inspires them? what they had to go through in order to get where they are? Which is another thing that I deal with in another book, but we won't, we won't get. We won't get to that. But I am inspired by biographies and memoirs. What real people actually experience.
Scott Allen 40:23
My son was reading that. I have not read it yet. But he said, "he's still in Iowa!" Apparently, there was a long section on Iowa.
Gill Hickman 40:35
You know, I liked his earlier books actually better than this one, but this one goes through. And I think it's because we know about so many of the experiences that he talks about. Whereas in the earlier books, we did not know about his younger life, his father, all of that. And I think I found that more interesting, but this is still good.
Scott Allen 41:03
It's fascinating what they're going through, right, the detail of that experience. It's It's surreal. Anyone who, who takes on a leadership role at that level? that's a different animal.
Gill Hickman 41:17
Yeah. I really would like to know more about their motivation, because of what they have to go through in order to be a leader at that level. I don't know if many people could take that on. I know I could.
Scott Allen 41:33
Well, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you so much for sharing your work for doing the work that you do. I would love to have you come back and talk about your most recent work at some point. We need to do that. Because you're right. We didn't get to it today. Would you be open to that down the road?
Gill Hickman 41:52
Yes, When Leaders Face a Personal Crisis. It's another whole experience. And it's different for me because I don't write about leaders usually.
Scott Allen 42:03
Well, we will put that on the agenda. All right, that sounds good.
Gill Hickman 42:08
I really enjoyed being with you today.
Scott Allen 42:11
Thank you so much. We really, really appreciate it be well.
Gill Hickman 42:14
Alright. Thank you.
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