Dr. Elena Antonacopoulou is the founder and director of GNOSIS an international, interdisciplinary, and independent research and leadership development Institute. She has held full-time Professorial appointments at the Universities of Liverpool, Manchester, and Warwick and currently holds Visiting Professorial appointments at Western University, Canada, University of Lincoln (UK), and the Royal Norwegian Airforce Academy (Norway). Her scientifically rigorous collaborative research in management and organization studies has earned her many research grants, awards, and accolades recognizing the impact of the ideas developed. Her principal research expertise lies in the areas of Strategic Change, Organisational Learning and Resilience, Knowledge, and Crisis Management with a focus on leadership implications.
Elena’s work is published widely in international journals including Academy of Management Learning and Education Journal, Journal of Management Studies, British Journal of Management, Journal of Management Inquiry, Management Learning. She has co-edited 5 books including two new volumes (Sensuous Learning for Practical Judgment in Professional Practice) advancing innovative learning modes that enhance the impact of management practice. She has been elected and served in multiple leadership roles in the top professional bodies in the management field and has received several awards for her outstanding leadership and service contributions and teaching excellence. She is frequently invited to deliver keynote speeches at international conferences, and deliver workshops that inspire and promote action choices that serve the common good. She is a certified coach from the International Coaching Federation.
Connecting with Elena
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Connect with Scott Allen
Dr. Elena Antonacopoulou is the founder and director of GNOSIS an international, interdisciplinary, and independent research and leadership development Institute. She has held full-time Professorial appointments at the Universities of Liverpool, Manchester, and Warwick and currently holds Visiting Professorial appointments at Western University, Canada, University of Lincoln (UK), and the Royal Norwegian Airforce Academy (Norway). Her scientifically rigorous collaborative research in management and organization studies has earned her many research grants, awards, and accolades recognizing the impact of the ideas developed. Her principal research expertise lies in the areas of Strategic Change, Organisational Learning and Resilience, Knowledge, and Crisis Management with a focus on leadership implications.
Elena’s work is published widely in international journals including Academy of Management Learning and Education Journal, Journal of Management Studies, British Journal of Management, Journal of Management Inquiry, Management Learning. She has co-edited 5 books including two new volumes (Sensuous Learning for Practical Judgment in Professional Practice) advancing innovative learning modes that enhance the impact of management practice. She has been elected and served in multiple leadership roles in the top professional bodies in the management field and has received several awards for her outstanding leadership and service contributions and teaching excellence. She is frequently invited to deliver keynote speeches at international conferences, and deliver workshops that inspire and promote action choices that serve the common good. She is a certified coach from the International Coaching Federation.
Connecting with Elena
Quotes From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Connect with Scott Allen
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate (even less when Greek words are being used!)
Kate Allen 0:04
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom with Scott Allen.
Scott Allen 0:13
Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening wherever you are in this beautiful world. My name is Scott Allen and I am the host of Phronesis: Practical wisdom for leaders. I am an Associate Professor of Management at john Carroll University in Cleveland, Ohio, USA. I'm an author and entrepreneur, a speaker, a nonprofit founder, and the host of two podcasts. I'm also a husband and dad of three you just heard from Kate, my daughter, who wrote and performed with a Phronesis intro Phronesis offers a smart, fast-paced discussion and all things leadership. My guests are scholars and practitioners. And we cover timely relevant topics and incorporate practical tips designed to help you make a difference in how you lead and live. Now I am proud to share that Phronesis as the official podcast of the International leadership Association, an association that is near and dear to my heart. I la brings together leaders and those who teach, study, and develop leadership, advancing leadership knowledge and practice for a better world. Learn more at www.ILAglobalnetwork.org. If you like what we're up to, please click subscribe so you can stay up to date as we release new episodes each week. You can also share what we're up to with others. And now, today's show.
I have Elena P. Antonacopoulou. She is the founder and director of Gnosis, an international interdisciplinary and independent research, and Leadership Development Institute. She has had professional appointments at a number of universities Liverpool, Manchester, Warwick, and she currently holds visiting professional appointments at Western University in Canada, at the University of Lincoln in the UK, and the Royal Norwegian Air Force Academy. You are all over the world. I love this. I love this. She has been published in the world's best journals, the Academy of Management, learning and education, Journal of Management Studies, the British Journal of Management, Journal of management, inquiry, management learning, she has co-edited five books, I think we're going to touch on maybe one or two of those today. She is a certified coach with the international coach Federation. And she is involved in all kinds of things to get a little more information on Elena and to learn about how to connect with her, you can look at the show notes. But Elena, what do you do in your spare time when you are not around the world and writing papers and engaging and think tanks and coaching others and Wow!
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 2:54
Well, I do have a life believe it or not. I love my long walks, meditating while I walk with my mate Dexter, the dog who you have seen before the start of the show. And when I am in my fitness mode, which I have to accept that I haven't been as intensively engaged in the course of the lockdown with all the conferences and that implies I like to spend time in the company of my friends either doing Zumba, dancing, salsa, and boxing. And that is and all sorts of fitness regiments. So I do live a full life. And of course, I have two children, which ensures that I don't have any time for myself.
Scott Allen 3:48
Oh, that's wonderful. Well, we met because you reached out to me. And I believe the email said something to the effect of you have this podcast called for nieces. And you have not even explored what that word means. And this is my area of expertise. So I wrote you back and I said, Well, you are the person I need to know. I've had a few people. In fact, yesterday I had someone say I should change the name. And I've had a few people kind of wonder about the origins. Elena, the origin is very, very simplistic. Okay, can I tell you the story? And it's a little bit embarrassing, potentially, for someone who has expertise in this space as you do. There is a jazz band called Phronesis. And I thought wow, that is the coolest name for a jazz band. So I looked up the definition of the word. And of course, you can look and see different versions but it...you know, practical wisdom. So I always just loved that word, but I didn't necessarily study or understand the depths to the degree that you do and some of the other words that are associated with it right? Because we're going to Aristotle here.
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 4:55
Oh, very much. We're going to Aristotle and the Nicomachean ethics. Absolutely.
Scott Allen 5:00
So I think that the origin of it is that I loved the word and I loved the notion of practical wisdom. I love the notion of blending in some ways, scholars, academics, and based on those conversations, what can we take from the learning so I'm excited to sit and listen to you talk a little bit about phronesis. And talk a little bit about maybe even some of your thoughts and observations on words that are adjacent in terms and concepts that are adjacent to it. So
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 5:33
I'm doubly excited because in reaching out to you was, in fact, to come, as I said, in my email to you to congratulate you on enabling the community of leadership scholars to celebrate a concept that it is at the essence of what leadership means. And I'm not the only scholar in our field, who celebrates that connection. My colleagues and now, the people I will be more actively working with at the Leadership Institute at Ivy Business School in Western University in Canada, have developed the leader character agenda where they embedded phronesis and practical wisdom at the core of what it means to develop leader character to demonstrate leader character, and colleagues in Norway, have written extensively on that. Colleagues in Oxford have written about so I'm only one of many colleagues who have appreciated that there are certain treasures, both in language, in philosophy, and in life, that if we bring more to the forefront of our awareness, we can actually use in this most critical of moments as we rewrite the future of humankind if I dare say so, to celebrate why practical wisdom is an essential and practical tool, a means by which we can live life and understand leadership in the process.
Scott Allen 7:00
So well said so well said. So take us a little bit back to Aristotle and his way of thinking, and even maybe some concepts that would be adjacent that we would see in his work.
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 7:11
Of course, the late John Shotter was a wonderful philosopher and practitioner who understood the essence of Phronesis. But he wrote with my friend and collaborator, Haridimos Tsoukas, who is very embedded within a phronetic orientation, both as a scholar as and as an educator. So he is definitely much more knowledgeable than I am. But that but as I said, already, I mean, people like Olaf Eikeland have written books, and actually know, Aristotle's work better than many Greeks together. And he's Norwegian, which is why I appreciate him dearly. But again, just let's be practical, what you set out to achieve here, which is really the celebration of what this podcast is intending to provide is that you bring to the fore the notion of Phronesis and Phronesis in an in Aristotle's notion, if we go back to Nicomachean Ethics was what he understood as the reasoned and true state of capacity to act with regard to human goals. Now, there are many, I mean, we could actually have multiple podcasts on the roots and extensions of the concept and this can be found in some of the stuff I've written because, like many others, I had to go and trace the development of the concept before I to bring it in my leadership research. But again, phronimos in Greek means, "good, well behaved." Okay, so I've learned as I grew up many times, "be a good girl, Eleni, Elena, phroneme," so there is almost kind of an expectation that you conduct yourself. It's not just behavior. It's really, how do you come to be who you are? So for phronimos is someone who is not just acting well, or is governed by some moral and ethical grounds and principles, but it's also someone who creates with the intent to serve the common good. And McIntyre, I guess, was one of those who Alistair McIntyre, who developed this even more in bringing it, you know, with his notion of after virtue, but simply put, if anyone wanted to understand what phronesis is, we can use notions like discernment, practical syllogism, insight, wisdom, virtue, moral excellence, but the thing I want to distinguish and bring to the conversation and appreciation of the concert because that's exactly what I saw you achieve, with all the podcasts because I have been enjoying listening to as soon as I discovered you was that the notion of phronesis is also associated with poesís (δημιουργία).
Scott Allen
Say that again?
Elena P. Antonacopoulou
The notion of phronesis is also associated with the making of things. poesís. It's a beautiful word as is lemuria, creation. And the beauty of phronesis is not to be understood, because you call it practical wisdom. And that's the beauty. It's both practical. And it is about wisdom. In other words, it is both the doing, but it is also about contemplation. It is also about discernment as I said before. So for me, as I defined it in my own writing phronesis is a creative act, especially when navigating the unknown. And that's where for me phronesis matters most, when we are, we're coming to situations, which are not just paradoxical not heard your other podcast colleagues rightly point out to complexity, and obviously the VUCA and all the rest of it. But with all due respect, I think we're missing the essence of phronesis as that which enables us to engage with the unknown on its own terms. It's not just what happens when we're faced with dilemmas, paradoxes, and crucible moments. Of course, that's where our strength of character shines and guides our action choices, which is why we mark it as an act of practical wisdom.
Scott Allen 11:33
Ah, interesting. So can you think of an example in your own life or in maybe events that people would be well aware of, maybe it could be history, or it could be current events, where you see this playing out,
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 11:50
I think it plays out in our everyday life from whether I will choose to have that extra piece of chocolate that I know I shouldn't but I will, all the way to how we engage in interactions with each other. That to me, that's exactly what is beautiful about this concept. It's not about necessarily elevating the expectation that it only belongs to some and not others. Of course, it is about aspiring to develop and reflect our humanity overall. But in everyday life, let me tell you how I educate in my leadership development programs for phronesis. And with a phronetic orientation, let me use a typical example, I bring you to a situation where I invite you to think of yourself as a practicing junior doctor, okay, who is called upon to provide support to an elderly patient at home on arrival, and in the discussion, a brief discussion with the patient, you are being told explicitly that that patient would like to die at home. And in the course of the examination, you see signs of a cardiac arrest, you now have to exercise action, of course, you will provide them the support that they need, right? Medical support. So you take them to a hospital? Or do you leave them at home?
Scott Allen 13:15
What do your students say? I don't want to answer.
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 13:19
Even doctors don't want to answer because it is those junctures where your professional education and therefore "techne," your technical and epistemic scientific knowledge, are guiding you in what you choose to do. But ultimately, your phronesis is what defines what I would call your moment of leadership. Yes, it's standing up for what you stand for. In other words, I would personally if I was a doctor, although I know the rules would expect me to have taken this patient to the hospital because that is the expectation, I would have opted to provide the care to ensure that if indeed these are their final moments, that their wishes are respected. Now, does this make me a better doctor than someone else who follows the rules? Well, the Miracle on the Hudson River is one other example as I used to say miracles are called miracles because we step beyond the standard operating procedures and create the conditions which would have been perceived impossible or too risky to take. So for Nexus provides, in fact, that capacity to master almost kind of entities, of course, rightly associated with the strength of character, because it is about how do you create that sense of stability in yourself...groundedness, in fact, is how I call it centeredness so that you are one with the situation and your reflexivity is not a knee jerk reflex reaction, but it is a way that I found in my research with me Military, what happens with pilots when they are faced in dangerous situations? They are not flying the plane? They are the plane.
Scott Allen 15:09
Oh, that's an interesting way of phrasing it.
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 15:11
Totally. And I see it in everyday life when I drive my car. And of course, many of us have forgotten what driving looks like, which is fine. It's getting a bit of getting used to. But, you know, we don't often think that we the right judgment, when we navigate and negotiate the use of the road with other cars, cyclists, pedestrians, and everything else that may show up unexpectedly. But phronesis is that which I would argue, could and should guide us more to muster the temper when someone cuts our way. Also to consider why is it that, for example, breaking the speed limit? Because I'm in a hurry is not something that I would consider? And believe me, I'm as guilty as charged. I hardly have this impression. Don't say that to anyone - let's keep that between you and me. I have my Michael Schumacher moments. Not does that make me phronemos? Well, I would argue the capacity to see ourselves. And therefore how we act and choose to act is partly what phronesis is about. phronesis is not just about always doing the right thing? There are moments when we don't.
Scott Allen 16:35
So if Sully needs to land the plane, I imagine there wasn't protocol for landing the plane in the Hudson River.
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 16:43
Well, and again, because we've done extensive research in analyzing those cases, many other colleagues and other professionals have found value in looking at that. They say that Sulley was trained to land, you know, in water. And that and of course, from again, my experience of aviation, in my broader research in the sector, reaffirms the fact that simulation gives them a whole range of terrains to negotiate as part of their training ongoing if you will practicing, which is the other thing which is critical in all of what we're discussing today in relation to phronesis. In this particular case, the expectation was that he should have flown back to the clear the nearest airport like it from which they departed. And yet if you follow the film, I think for me, the golden moment was the moment he explained that he eyeballed it. That's phronesis, if you want the best example of phronesis is how is it that I come to that moment call for judgment to act? He didn't know that he could land the plane safely on the river, the river was actively utilized by the boats who were transferring passengers. So it wasn't as if it was all common clear. And we know for a fact that even after the successful landing, there were mistakes in that they didn't close some of the pockets. And of course, that's why the plane started to receive water. But it was also dangerous for the boats that approached the plane to rescue the passengers when they came out on the wings of the plane if you remember, because obviously of the suction effect and for the disturbance with you know the presence if you will, but the fact that he broke the standard operating procedures was the thing that a fact that was also valuable in the way that this event was captured in the film. That's actually when it was produced. And in that, it shows that he took the risk of however many years 40 plus years of experience flying for a few seconds of a choice. But for him, he was compelled to do that and break the rules. Because his judgment is was what guided him to do what was for him, the right thing to do. And he proved that he took multiple attempts in the simulator before they could confirm that it was possible to return to the airport.
Scott Allen 19:11
Wow. You mentioned a moment ago practice. Talk about practice, talk about practice. One of my favorite scholars is k Anders Ericsson. He's, he's the individual who coined the term deliberate practice. And so he wrote about expertise and how people become what to put themselves in a situation to work at the highest levels, regardless of domain chess or memorization or surgery. And it was really interesting because I think there's a lot of connections we could make to leadership and oh my goodness, right, but talk about the role of practice.
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 19:48
And right so lets we've done enough Greek lesson. Let's do an English lesson now. This is 20 years of scholarship Scott!
Scott Allen 19:58
I love it. I love it. No, I'm so excited!
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 20:02
Well, I wouldn't say cost me my career. But I did put my neck out that was the Sully of my of the practice based on this debate. Because as I'm sure you know, one of the themes that have populated the leadership debate is the leadership is practice. And in the same way, as there has been a "leadership as practice," there has been a "strategy as practice" and "entrepreneurship as practice," and many, many other management practices which somehow the preposition s practice makes that makes them and I see them differently. Having spent 20 years researching social practice theory, and understanding what it means to look at the Praxis, the practitioner, and what it takes to perform an act that we can call a practice, I concluded that there is a practice we have not understood fully yet. And that's the practice of practice. Now I've lost your listeners by now. And...
Scott Allen 21:05
I feel like we're going down a rabbit hole!
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 21:08
Hopefully not! Hopefully not! Because the reward in the current that awaits you pick your head up from that hole, is to recognize that there is a big distinction - and this is where I'm afraid the use of the two concepts with the same spelling is confusing many. There is it's not about the verb, "practicing" with that and the noun. I'm not playing the YPN notion of organization organizing, managing I am, of course, I respect that immensely and it is part of the process, you process your unfolding of which phronesis are also an important element of, but I am talking about what happens when we repeat, a doctor is in practice, but is practising every time they perform a surgery. So you can perform the same surgery a million times, and you can still be in a "practising mode." Practise is about repetition, not replication. I emphatically highlight in my work the distinction between repeating and replicating. I draw on Deleuze, who asserts that repetition is always about the difference. Hence, for me practising is about the leap of faith." So that's exactly what Sully again had done. Right? So he might have practised over 40 years, multiple times in simulations for multiple terrain landings. But when he had to rise to the moment, practising became that very process, which enabled him to try out something that he was not going to be clear from the beginning, it would result in the desired outcome. But his intention became the impact he worked to deliver. That's why he is being called the leader. Yes, at that moment. So practicing is what we all do all the time, not just mastering any practice, but in choosing how we live.
Scott Allen 23:14
I like that phrasing "in choosing how we live." So when you're having this conversation with students or others, what are some other concepts that you often weave in? What are some other ways of thinking about this or some other topics that are adjacent to this conversation?
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 23:32
Well, again, I'm going to add another layer of complexity now that we are swimming deep.
Scott Allen 23:40
We were in a rabbit hole and now we're swimming! I love this!
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 23:43
Of course, we've always been swimming if you play with Sully analogy, we are very much landing on the river and where there is water there is potential and life. I would say that one of the things with which mattered a great deal to me in the way in which we would need to advance understanding leadership, not just as a practice, but "leadership in practice" was how are we are practicing leadership. And in they are staying with the water metaphor, is what prompted me to make the two points first, to see and highlight the sheep in leadership. And you can take it literally and metaphorically. By that I mean, what platforms do we create, so that we collectively grow? And within that, what does this growth mean in terms of advancing our humanity, which I also see as a central aspect of both phronesis and leadership. Now, there is where we go back to not only discussions around issues of you know, not moral Physicians and ethics alone, of course, we do that. And that's why ideas in and around leader character matter a great deal because of course, that's what we tap into and bring in this practicing to figure out or as others would say, "are in our wayfinding pursuit." So practical wisdom is not that in the flip of your finger, you come up with the idea, that deliberation before you act and decide that that's the wisest thing to do implicates the practicing that is happening, whether you're deliberating or as I would say, reflexively reassess a situation in my conversations in my, in my village development programs, in my writing, one of the things that I have been particularly keen to see that we understand better is the value of reflexivity, which is different from just viewing something, reviewing it, or reflecting on it, or in the course of doing it as Donald Schon would say, reflection in an on action. So a review of you there are ways of seeing is a way of looking, right. So we view things from a particular perspective, now phronesis is a critical component in that, because it allows us to ponder Curiously, is there more to it? Yes. The second point is to review after the event. When you replay, you will literally view it again. Yes, except this time, the post rationalization is the danger of interpretive mechanism, like sense giving, and sense-making, which may post rationalize and provides explanations that create the truth.
Scott Allen 26:51
Say that one more time,
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 26:53
when you review something, after the event, you enter into a process of post-rationalization. Now, the danger is, of course, this process of interpretation, I came to what we talk about in our field as sense-making and sense-giving are in equal measure potentially biased views. So that's my, that's the main message there. Which, which says, if you look at something, be curious and ask is there more? If you review something, don't just say what has happened? But why am I understanding it this way? And why is it making sense in another way for someone else? Okay. There is more to it. When you're reflecting on something, either, once you're doing it, or after you've done it, reflection has that capacity of questioning your assumptions. Okay, so you build through your character, the confidence to say, "Now hold on a second, why is it that I assumed that if I did this, this would have been enough?" And that's how, going back to the example with which we started, if you were a doctor, you can't assume that only what the rulebook says is, what is the right thing to do. So everything has to be adapted as things emerge. And that's where phronesis matters. But phronesis matters, and is manifested even more in our action choices. And that's where reflexivity lies. Reflexivity is this moment where we are in a situation fully present. So we show up, and we are experiencing it by allowing ourselves to feel and participate as an insider, at the same time, simultaneously, as we have the capacity to extrapolate and see it from an outsider's perspective.
Scott Allen 28:47
Yes, Ron Heifetz might call that getting on the balcony, you're kind of in and out of the game or reflections in practice, like in the moment?
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 28:56
Let me give you a way of looking at it slightly differently if you if, I mean, we are most of us are stuck in front of the TV watching football these days with you know, with a soccer game and the World Cup. And so here is the point, when you're in the field of action. As a football player, you don't really see you're in the game. And yet, you have to be able to have this panoramic view. So that you can project that "I am ready." And for me, that joy is when I watch the player sensuously correspond with one another.
Scott Allen 29:33
Say more about that.
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 29:34
Oh, my God, sensuousness is the secret intelligence that I don't think we've even begun to tap into, which is so important to phronesis. So many people say how do you know you've done the right thing? Well, you can wait until after the event, or you can actually place yourself as you deliver what you do and such and placement. allows the reflexive gaze for you to form a stance and better still stand up for what you stand for. That's the new concept in leadership studies that I've been working on for the last few years. We first developed it in order to explain what does intrapreneurial entrepreneurs? And this notion of entrepreneurship as a practice, how can we understand it? And that's where we explored and placement as an extension of enactment and embodiment? Because emplacement is our entanglement in the event. Enough, though, for us to be able to practice our response, whilst responding reflexively accounting for that which emerges.
Scott Allen 30:47
So Elena, what is your background because you have such a wide variety of issues, experiences, knowing that you are bringing to one space. Talk about that a little bit. You've been embedded in business schools, you've published in management journals, you talk about your background that brings this very expansive perspective to the space.
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 31:13
Thank you, Scott, for it both in strength and a curse, as they say! I am very curious as a person. In fact, if you asked me, what do you specialize in, I will often say I'm a "learning scholar." In the double sense of the world work, and more recently, I've positioned myself as an axiologist. I'll say something in a minute about that, to me being a learning scholar is that I have devoted 30 years of my scholarship as faculty in business schools to aggregate. And therefore I've always cared immensely about the quality of learning experiences, and experiences of learning that I was helping to shape and the impact of such learning enough for me to have felt that in doing justice, to beat the importance of understanding the role of learning in a change in renewal, and growth, beats strategically, organizationally, individually, socially, I needed to tap into anthropology, philosophy, human geography, psychology, I am broadly read. And actually, that has been what made always it very difficult for people to only limit me because I arrived at organizational learning broadly and organization change. And I can see just as comfortably within colleagues that are within the OB/HR, Human Resource Management space, as well as with colleagues in strategy and public policy, and so on, and so forth. So, I am someone that sees entanglement not as a concept, but as a way of thinking, breathing. And what I actually, one of the most important principles in my identity as a scholar, is that I practice what I preach. And here is the essence that for me, I can't speak about something unless I lived it. And that's why you see me so passionate in fighting with colleagues who insisted on practice with a C, and I kept insisting on practice with an S. And at some point, it was called the "S & C War."
Scott Allen 33:31
Well, as we wind down for today, what are you reading? What are you listening to or streaming that's caught your eye in recent months that you would want listeners to be aware of or to know about?
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 33:43
In some respects, I know I was cheeky, if I can use that term to say, having listened to your podcast? I would certainly encourage listeners to spend time tracing and systematically following the discussions because each one of them is unique, and there's so much learning in each of them. And I think if one word to look at a body of knowledge that the podcasts are creating, to me, they manifest different dimensions of phronesis as a concept, and I love that so thank you for being with me on my walks if I am not meditating, I hear I hear you, I'm listening to you and your other beautiful people that you've featured thanks to my friend Sally Newman. I'm reading The Alchemist by Coelho . Although I knew his work on other things. I hadn't actually read the alchemy. So thanks to her who presented it to me as a present she sent it to me at all. I have not to play with it, but I've never short have the stuff to read. Unfortunately, I'm one of those that always carries enough paperwork and the reason why I have the Aurora is my background is I'm so full of...
Scott Allen 34:57
books!
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 35:01
But it wouldn't make for the most tidy background compared to yours!
Scott Allen 35:08
Well, that's a great way to be. I was watching a documentary on, I think it was Bill Gates, and, he has a total of just eight or 10 different books that he is constantly carrying around to learn about different dimensions in the world. But I love your description of yourself as a learning scholar. I think that's wonderful. I absolutely think that's wonderful. And, you know, I listened to these probably two or three times. So I'm looking forward to re-listening to this episode two or three times, and really taking it in really, because, as you've been told before, I'm sure you're thinking, well, I could say 50,000 feet. I mean, you are looking at this in a very unique and very cool way, I think.
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 35:54
Thank you, Scott, I believe that it is in these interactions that we see more in each other than any one of us can see in ourselves. And that actually the beauty of what you have created and, and the search for phronesis, we can't be phronemous in and on our own. We need others to allow us to discover more of what we can bring to the world by being who we are, and settling with ourselves in just accepting that being who we are is enough.
Scott Allen 36:26
Yes. Well, thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate it. Thank you for the good work that you do. And for advancing our thinking and new realms and new dimensions. I absolutely love it. Have a great day. And I look forward to our paths crossing again soon!
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 36:41
I look forward to seeing you again Scott as well, thank you for the opportunity, really appreciate it.
Scott Allen 36:46
Be well!
Elena P. Antonacopoulou 36:49
You too. Take care!
Scott Allen 36:50
I would be lying if I said that at certain times in that conversation. I wasn't swimming a little bit. Back to this water metaphor. Elena is thinking about leadership and thinking about the world and how we help prepare people to be successful in incredibly challenging scenarios, challenging situations. And I love that I love engaging in conversations, where maybe I don't understand all of it, where I can look back, reflect and challenge my own assumptions. expand my own thinking. And Elena, you have done that for me. And I'm sure for some of you who are listening. And that is the practical wisdom for me in this conversation. That to get new places to grow, to advance. We have to challenge ourselves to be comfortable, engaging in dialogue and conversations where maybe we don't always understand where we are being stretched to think in new ways. And Elena helped me do that work today. for that. I say thank you for your good work. Thank you for advancing our thinking. And for all of you listening. Listen again, because you'll hear something new, I promise. Be well, everyone. Bye bye.
Scott Allen
You my friend have just finished another episode of phronesis practical wisdom for leaders. To get in touch with me visit www.scottjallen.net. Or send me a note at www.scottjallen.net. I can also be found on Twitter and on LinkedIn. Now if you have feedback, I would love to hear it. And as always, thank you so much for listening to Phronesis if you like Phronesis I have a second podcast. It's called the Captovation podcast that's an O Captovation podcast where I speak with experts on the topic of designing and delivering incredible presentations. And now Kate's twin sister Emily, with the outro
Emily Allen 39:15
You've been listening to Phronesis: Practical Wisdom with Scott Allen
Transcribed by https://otter.ai