Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

From Submarine to Spaceport: Adaptive Leadership with Trey Carlson

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 283

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Harold (Trey) Carlson has served as chief of staff for NASA’s John F. Kennedy Space Center in Florida since August 2022. In this role, Carlson is responsible for day-to-day operations at Kennedy, helping shape the center's strategic direction while overseeing various policies and initiatives.

Before assuming his current role, Carlson served five years as the Kennedy Space Center legislative affairs manager. He directed KSC’s legislative agenda, interfacing with Congress and the State of Florida legislature and advocating for NASA’s exploration and science mission requirements and Kennedy’s multi-user spaceport needs.

During his tenure as legislative affairs manager, Carlson served several months as NASA’s acting deputy associate administrator for the Office of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs (OLIA) and eight months as the acting director for Legislative Liaison Division within OLIA. 

Previously, he led the development and execution of Kennedy’s master plan that transformed the center from a single-use, government-operated federal facility to a multi-user spaceport providing both government and commercial launch operations.

Carlson is a former U.S. Navy submariner and holds a bachelor’s degree in urban studies and planning from the University of California at San Diego, and a Master of Science degree in public policy and management from the Heinz School at Carnegie Mellon University. 

A Quote From This Episode

  • "It’s the people element that is the most important—whether you’re making yeast rolls or launching rockets.”
  • “I’ve never thought, ‘Why did I do this?’ after investing time in a relationship.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode 

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.


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Scott Allen:

Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, we're going to go out of this world a little bit and I'm honored to have Trey Carlson. He has served as Chief of Staff for NASA's John F Kennedy Space Center in Florida since August 2022. In this role, carlson is responsible for day-to-day operations at Kennedy, helping shape the strategic direction of the center while overseeing various policies and initiatives. Prior to assuming his current role, carlson served for five years as the Kennedy Space Center's legislative affairs manager. He directed KSC's legislative agenda, interfacing with Congress and with the state of Florida legislature, as well as advocating for NASA's exploration and science mission requirements and Kennedy's multi-user spaceport needs.

Scott Allen:

Carlson is a former US Navy submariner and holds a bachelor's degree in urban studies and planning from the University of California at San Diego and a master's of science degree in public policy and management from the Heinz School at Carnegie Mellon University. Carlson and his wife, kathleen, have been married for 28 years and they reside in Satellite Beach, florida. Sir, what's not on your bio that people need to know about you? And second, thank you so much for being here.

Trey Carlson:

Oh well, it's great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. You read all the sparkly parts of my bio. You know, when I joined the Navy and I was on the submarine, I was in the elite nuclear power program and got kicked out of that program because I couldn't meet the needs. And then I became a cook on the submarine, which nothing wrong with being a cook. My wife's a cook, she loves to cook. But you know, one was considered the highest tier on submarines and the cook was definitely not the highest tier, it was pretty near the bottom and so that was like a big.

Scott Allen:

I interfaced with a gentleman named Jerry Blesch and he was the captain of the USS Wisconsin in Gulf War I and it was hilarious because he would always tell this story. He would say if you want to find out what's going on in the organization on your ship, who do you talk with? And I would say, I don't know. You're number two. And he'd say no, you go to the night bakery chef. That's the person who knows everything.

Trey Carlson:

He's absolutely correct. I was the night baker on the sub. We basically had two shifts, 12 hour shifts that we served, and so for one of my patrols I was the night baker. And let me tell you what you're everybody's best friend. You know, I can't go to the store.

Trey Carlson:

What was the only place to eat is in my kitchen and it wasn't that big, and so the captain and everybody else on the crew would come through and and the people that treated me well, I'd come in and I, hey, you want a hot roll, I just. And the people that didn't, they didn't. And I will say, out of everything I've done with school and I'm grateful for the schooling I went to and everything but probably one of the things I rely on most in my day job today as chief of staff is probably what I learned in that galley kitchen, even though at the time I was embarrassed that I was there. Those skill sets of working with the director, the commander commanding a United States ship of war as well as anybody else, and being able to interact with them. That really helped set me up, I think, ultimately for the job I'm in now.

Scott Allen:

Well, that's a graduate degree in human behavior. Is what that looks like?

Trey Carlson:

Right, when you're 150 feet below the surface, there are tensions that come up. Yes, yes, sir, absolutely.

Scott Allen:

Trey, I am so excited for this conversation because you are actively leading people each and every day and, of course, I appreciate just kind of starting out with hey. This is where I started. You are in this really wonderful and important position now, but we all start somewhere and so I appreciated that story for sure. The lessons we can learn from where we come from, I think that's also really, really important. But you know, as you're leading, day in, day out, you're doing the work. What are some things and that's where I'd love to take the conversation is what are some things that kind of are top of mind for you as you lead this very, very complex organization, high stakes. So what are some things that come to mind?

Trey Carlson:

Our core values are safety, integrity, teamwork and excellence. So, an organization like NASA, an organization like Kennedy, an operational space flight center, safety is obviously number one. But we've got some amazing people here who are looking at to make sure that we're protecting ourselves, we're protecting our equipment, but, like with any other organizations, whether you know, if you're like I was building and making yeast rolls on a submarine or now launching rockets, you know, at a cadence of sometimes two, three times a week you know it's the people, it's the people element that is the most important.

Trey Carlson:

You know I've got about half a dozen direct reports who I sign. You know their time card and everything like dozen direct reports who I sign, you know their time card and everything like that. But across the organization my boss, the director, we've got 17 or 18 different directorates out here, people running large sub-organizations, as well as our commercial partners, our state partners. It's not for the six people whose paycheck I sign how I get my job done. It's my relationships having frank discussions with and just being able to talk to all these different folks from within the organization, outside of the organization, on property, that really helps, I'd say, keep me in the know. And I know I've mentioned a couple of times that submarine work. But even before that, when I was in the legislative role, my job was to know about this much everywhere, to know just a little bit about who I get in touch with. And what I didn't realize at the time was those relationships of knowing who to go to ask a question were helping make me in a position that now where I still know all the answers, of course, but what I do know is I have people I can talk to, who I really respect and who I know are going to give me the honest truth.

Trey Carlson:

And it's ironic moving into this job I've been on here about 20 years. So moving into this job when I took on the chief of staff role and I'm very grateful got a nice office, a nice view. At first I had a lot of my friends or people I've interacted with for years felt like, well, I can't interrupt you now and I'm like no, that's why I'm here is because of the fact I have these relationships or everything that we've done together. So you know, I'm still the same person I've always been and in fact I need our relationship even more now to help execute the mission of what we're trying to do. And you can't dial back or be like, hey, do I have to go through all these checks and balances just to get on your calendar? No, we've been texting each other for 10 years.

Scott Allen:

Okay, let's go in a little bit on the relationships piece, because I think, especially in today's culture in the work space, I keep kind of hearing the phrase time starved, that at times we can be time starved, and so protecting that time to really focus in on relationships, because I couldn't agree with you more. There's a famous leadership scholar, especially in student affairs. Her name is Susan Komovas. She says it's all about relationships. It's about having those individuals in your sphere who will tell you exactly, even if it's not great news, but then also those relationships with individuals who can connect you to the answer. So how do you think about carving out that time to still prioritize that work? One thing you just said gave me a clue. Like look, no, you don't need to go through seven layers, send me a text and we'll make it happen. But how do you prioritize that work of relationships when everything else is kind of coming at you? Does that make sense?

Trey Carlson:

It does make sense and I'm not sure if I do it well. It's constant. I'm trying to be aware of it. I think a lot of times because of the volume of work that's going on. You know I need the downtime. You know I need time with my wife or whatever like that. But a lot of organizations out here they have happy hours on a regular basis. I'll be like, okay, once a month. I need to make sure I swing by and I do want to do it, but you get in the car and you're on your way home and I've got my music to decompress or whatever to get home. So I could, you know, I think that's it. I think just recognizing just how closely I need that as well, because in some ways it's a hassle to think about making that relationship a priority. But then when you get there, I've never thought, oh, why did I do this? In fact, every time when I do spend time, I think why am I waiting so long to do this? I don't think I've ever thought this is taking too much time.

Scott Allen:

I love how you're thinking about that, because I have this article in my head and it's kind of the hidden task list of leaders. These are those things that are on the task list, or should be on the task list, but oftentimes get taken over by a whole bunch of other things like just simply two or three notes a week to say thank you I noticed it, that was awesome. A quick email it should be on the task list, but oftentimes it's not. And again, that's a part of that kind of relationship piece. So prioritizing relationships is a key piece of how you think about the work. What else is on your radar when it comes to okay, how do I do this work of leading effectively? What are some other things that are important for you in your model?

Trey Carlson:

So this role was sort of refashioned. The director here took over about eight months or so before I became her chief of staff, and so she was deputy for many years before she became the director and she had a different vision of the way she wanted. I mean, my role is similar. When you think of I'd say when you think of the term chief of staff, it's not necessarily a term in title, it's what you imagine when you hear the term chief of staff. But there was no template for me per se, right, which ironically bothered me at first, and I don't like templates, but I think it bothered me that I almost felt like I had too much, like okay, how do I do this? So I was able to get a coach shortly after getting this job. It was coincidence that I was able to get one. It wasn't because I had the job, I went and got one, but the timing was perfect and the one thing that we worked on was really kind of looking at what my role is, who I am myself, what is my intrinsic value of myself, and then the organization Looking at it as like a Venn diagram of really helping me understand.

Trey Carlson:

I work with amazing people at NASA and the director, her deputy, her associate directors. I couldn't ask for better people to work with. Sometimes people get the job they want, but then all of a sudden you're working with these jerks. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'm very blessed I'm not in that position. So I think kind of finding, okay, what was the strength I was bringing to that team.

Trey Carlson:

You know, working with my coach really helped me kind of figure that out, because I think at first you're tempted to kind of model some of what you're seeing around you. They were not bringing me up here because they needed to launch rockets more frequently and I had that ability of knowing how the systems work. Because, no, that's not what I did. You know, although I'm aloofly aware of that and I'm engaged in those conversations, that was not the value I was bringing. So it's kind of a long answer to a short question, but what really helped me sort of perform my role better was really understanding the value that I brought, the additional value I brought to the team, and it wasn't to echo another value or to take on another role that was already being done in a good path, a good manner.

Scott Allen:

There's a couple of things in there that I just absolutely love, and so one of them is that I reached out to a coach. I think leaders are learners I don't know remember who said that and so someone else said that. That is not my quote, but leaders are learners, and so I think having a coach and reaching out to a coach is brilliant because, again, the work is so complex. Who are some of your thinking partners? Who are the individuals you can turn to and say look, I'm getting triggered by this or this is going on, because if you just think about just the natural element of humans existing together, that's not easy. And again, when safety is your number one priority and, of course, there's those other values as well that you had mentioned, but you're not talking just like. This is high stakes stuff. This is not. I put cheese on your burger, Sorry. These are important, high stakes roles, and so having that coach and having that thinking partner, critical, awesome, yes, love it.

Scott Allen:

And then the fact that you and your coach started to explore and kind of move into that space of self-awareness of what are my strengths, what is it that I bring to this role, and that self-exploration, because I'm sure you've learned a ton about yourself as this has been elevated on you. As the role has elevated, you're being confronted now with all kinds of new situations. It's kind of like parenting. You know, when it was just me and my wife, we were cool, but then, when our son was introduced, that's a new type of learning for us as a couple, but also for me as a human, as a parent, and now me as a parent of teenagers. I'm learning in totally new ways there. But as the role elevates, there's all these new opportunities to learn about yourself. So I love that I got a coach and I'm systematizing that introspection, that self-awareness. I don't know does that resonate what I just said?

Trey Carlson:

Yeah, absolutely. I love the fact. In fact, before you said it, I was just thinking about being a parent. And my kids are older now, they're in their early to mid twenties, and at one point I don't know why I thought this, but I thought, oh, when they get over 18 or when they get through school, like everything was going to be done, but I don't even think I've even begun parenting yet. Like everything was going to be done, but I don't even think I've even begun parenting yet. You know like and my kids are great, everybody's kids are the best.

Trey Carlson:

So I think even those relationships I have with them and seeing them change and seeing them become who they are has helped me in my role here of understanding how I've changed, how I need to change the way I go about things.

Trey Carlson:

Probably half a dozen years ago or so, I was a little frustrated out here at work and I was feeling like I wasn't getting the advancement I deserved or people weren't noticing or whatever you know. And I went through a period of time I don't know maybe six months or so that I was trying to think what I want to do and then I don't remember how or why, but I decided you know what? You just stop looking at yourself and look at others. And so I really earnestly started focusing on my peers and even people that were junior graded at me and thinking about how can I help them with their career or how can I help when I first started at NASA? I didn't pursue mentoring as much back then I kind of wish I would in hindsight and so I sort of went out of my way about half a dozen years ago and it wasn't like I went to someone and said I'm going to be your mentor.

Scott Allen:

That would be awesome, though. Do you need a mentor? I'm right here.

Trey Carlson:

I know Right right, but it became really gratifying to see these people like grow and both their personal as well as their professional life, and I know I had a part. I'm not saying they owe it all to me but I also felt like it was very gratifying to see some of them getting married, having kids, taking on more responsibility at work or at home, and it's been really good, and so I think about that as like when I moved into and now all of a sudden I'm working on the senior management team.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, right.

Trey Carlson:

And these people are no longer the people that I revered and looked up to, as, all of a sudden, I was like, okay, they're people just like me, our flawed individuals trying to do the best, pull forward on making what we provide better. Yeah, I do think it had a little bit to do, though, with kids, kind of that transition the way, looking at my kids being like, okay, if I only have kids till 18, then I'm done what I do with this vacuum in my life.

Scott Allen:

What comes out for me right there in a really nice way is that you're investing in relationships, you're investing in others, you're again building relationships with different individuals in the organization and you're other-oriented.

Scott Allen:

And again that's critical when it comes to leadership, because I think we can be so focused on what's happening to us and what's coming to us.

Scott Allen:

That ability to look at others in the organization, especially some of those younger folks, that had to have been so meaningful that someone in your role, in your position, in your authority, tenure whatever word we want to say is investing in them. I had an individual at the university that I used to be at. I had just started and he was a vice president and president in the provost's office and he said, hey, let's go to lunch, and just the fact that he took that time meant so much to me as someone who's a junior in the organization, and I'm sure he learned as well. He probably gained some perspective and better understood someone's experience at a different level in the organization. But we both had this passion for film and so we would go see films together, we would have lunch periodically. But that other orientation in him I always appreciated that I wasn't just someone new, I was someone potentially to build a relationship with and invest in some ways, and Jim was just. He was incredible, and so I very much appreciate that story.

Trey Carlson:

Yeah, I eat lunch by myself, maybe half the time. Most of the time I'm eating lunch, you know, and I know a lot of people during lunch, it would be very easy and sometimes to go in the office, close the door and really catch up. Let's face it, that's a miserable way to live and I've done it. You know you're on your computer eating, you get done and you like drip food all over your keyboard, whatever, and I do that. But a lot of times I try to probably 50% of the time if I'm eating lunch, just have people come up and I'll be like you got to sit in my office but we're going to eat here.

Trey Carlson:

It's a way that I've just keep up with people, you know, and then, of course, you talk about things, but then you've talked about work things as well, you know, and some people are very private, possessive of their lunchtime, which I get it. That's just for me. I just found okay, since my time is so limited, I'm definitely going to eat, and the worst is when we actually have a meeting and I have to actually eat and they're all sitting around my desk watching me eat. But if you walk out and you get like something in your tooth for the past two hours, or not, you know, so Come on guys.

Scott Allen:

Let me know that that piece.

Trey Carlson:

I tooth for the past two hours, or not, you know. So, come on, guys, let me know that, that piece, I know right.

Scott Allen:

What else, anything else come to mind for you as you think about your transition to the role, as you think about leadership. What's another kind of North star for you as you? I mean, I'm hearing relationships, I'm hearing self-awareness, I'm hearing reaching out for, for coaches. Those are all kind of shining through. Anything else come to mind for you as you think about the role.

Trey Carlson:

Yeah, one thing I did shortly after moving in this role is so the federal government-wide they do this federal employee viewpoint survey. They survey all the federal government every year and it's like how are you feeling the condition, work environment, whatever and so NASA has been like the number one medium-sized agency for the past seven or eight years and Kennedy is like the number one center five or six years in a row within NASA of like our viewpoint survey.

Trey Carlson:

So, we already feel very connected to the work because hardware comes in and then we see it launch. But the one thing that you know when I stepped in this role is I felt like we needed more focused time on just getting together with our senior management and discussing strategy. We would have offsites once or twice a year, a couple of days to kind of get away. I really felt like we needed a more frequent. So every other month actually once a month we cancel our staff meeting on Mondays and one month we'll do a leadership thing for our senior management team a speaker or some sort of and then the off month we'll talk about strategy and whatever that is like something that we're trying to pursue and I found it's selfishly, it's helped out.

Trey Carlson:

My role First of all helped kind of get most of the leadership team on the same page. At least they're hearing about it more than twice a year at the annual offsite or the biannual offsite. They're hearing about a little more frequent basis, about oh yes, we're trying to get this done and then sometimes we even make like a social at the end of that too. But that's been extremely helpful in my role. And you know people are resistant, some people don't like doing that and that's fine. You realize that quickly who it is. But if it gets to the point where it's less pomp and circumstance, it just becomes more of a who we are we're talking about. Hey, we see this happening, what do we think we should be doing? And these people, just like me, have very busy schedules, so it's not like they have time to sit around and do this. But that's been very helpful for me and it's been very helpful for my boss, the director, as we're trying to set the strategic direction of the center and get everybody in alignment with each other.

Scott Allen:

Well, and that can be some of one of the most challenging aspects of leadership at times is aligning the human beings right, getting everyone kind of oriented in the same direction. What are we doing here Exactly? And so I love in that statement right there you've got we're systematizing our learning. Leaders are learners. Are we learning about leadership and are we learning about our own leadership? There's a great quote, jonathan I'm sorry you're going to get so tired of me saying this on the podcast, but my friend, jonathan Reams says leaders create the weather, and so I love that quote.

Scott Allen:

So what are the weather patterns we're creating as a leadership team? And that's a critical question. And there's another quote that I love who you are is how you lead, so who am I? And that's an important question, especially if others are in your care back to that self-awareness conversation, that coaching conversation. But I think you could take that who you are is how you lead to another. We're setting the weather patterns we are putting into place, and that requires some intentionality. You got to water that plant for it to live. So, as you're prioritizing some of that time, not only to get on the same page with some of the strategic initiatives, but also from a how are we going to do this work? What are we working on? But how are we going to get work done through others? What are the weather patterns we're going to create? Who we are is how we lead. That's important. You said something earlier, which another quote. I'm just going to throw quotes out left and right.

Scott Allen:

All right, this is a really good one too. I do some work with an architecture firm in town, and this was a group of high potentials who'd kind of been elevated, and a quote that came out of that group was so this is not mine, this is theirs, we are the they now. Remember younger in your career when you could look up and say well, it's them, they haven't. We are the they now and I just love that. So you prioritizing that time because you are the they now, it's you. And how are we doing this work and what weather patterns are we putting into place and are we elevating our skills? Very few people went to school for leadership, but now we are leaders.

Trey Carlson:

Right.

Scott Allen:

Wow, just critical.

Trey Carlson:

Yeah, we at our last offsite, I think late September.

Trey Carlson:

You know our most valuable resource is people, like anywhere else, and everybody knows where the stars are and everybody wants the stars in their organization, as they should, and the last thing you want to do is lose a star to another organization.

Trey Carlson:

You know they should, and the last thing you want to do is lose a star to another organization, you know. But we were talking about some intense times coming with work that we see coming down the pipe, and we really needed leadership and some folks and for the first time ever, these different organizations were willing to talk about their star players that could possibly go and work in another organization to serve the greater good, which many of the directors in the room were like wow, we've never been in that position before, and so I think a lot of it had to do with. I feel very blessed. I think we're an organization where we're trusting each other, trying to work well, recognizing the volume of work, and recognize that we got to build something that people want and hopefully the people will want to stay and if they don't, you've put them in a good enough position where they can go somewhere else. So, my boss, I really give her a lot of credit for that, for creating that environment to have people that could do that.

Scott Allen:

Yep, and back to creating that environment. The reason I love Jonathan's quote leaders create the weather. What's weather over time? That's climate. What's another word for climate? Culture? The weather patterns that individual and that team puts into motion. It has very real ramifications, very real ramifications for organizations, and so I love it. Trey, as we begin to kind of wind down our time, anything else come to mind for you that you want to cover?

Trey Carlson:

I've never met anybody that says I'm overpaid for what I'm doing. Maybe there are people out there that are overpaid for what they're doing. I don't think I'm in that camp and very few people. But I do think a big portion of what I do is finding people the immense satisfaction and value of what we're bringing, like the greater mission, and I think definitely at NASA we feel that connection not only to the science, the exploration, but the inspiration that we know that comes with our agency and what we do here at Kennedy. Scripture says, for much has been given, much is required.

Trey Carlson:

That was also in Spider-Man 2, depending on where you get your. You know it was sort of amended a little bit, but that's really how I think I view my role. My role in how I work and really, hopefully, how our organization works and how we lead our folks is that they feel like that we have their best at heart. When I came up to the Senate Director's Suite as the Chief of Staff, I remember the first six months. I was blown away how much we talked about many times a week about putting the right person in the right place. You know because it occurred to me after about five or six months. Oh yeah, I don't really do anything anymore. I have other people that do things right.

Scott Allen:

You know, in the orchestra you are conducting.

Trey Carlson:

And so having the right people in the right place that really should be what leadership is talking about all the time, because certainly the center director is a building a rocket in her garage or we need the right people doing the right things, and what I've enjoyed about my job and what I like about it is through the relationships and hopefully the culture that we're able to kind of accomplish a mission through that.

Scott Allen:

You know it makes me think of the Jim Collins. You know the right people on the bus and in the right seats. It makes all the difference if that's the case, because you can have a violin that's out of tune and that ruins the entire orchestra in the performance. And so, yes, kind of conducting and looking at that whole as a leader and I loved your phrase in there I don't do stuff anymore necessarily stuff, stuff, but you're conducting and you're making sure everything is happening so well as we wind down our time and again, trey, thank you so very, very much for your time today. What's caught your attention recently? It could have to do with leadership, it could have nothing to do with leadership, but is there something you've been streaming or listening to or reading, just consuming, that's caught your attention, that listeners might be interested in?

Trey Carlson:

The past couple of years I've really gotten into podcasts. I know they've been around forever, but not forever, but the last 10 years or so. But I have a 45-minute commute to and from work. There's a few things. I listen to President's Daily Brief. I listen to that which is more international affairs, everything that's happened on that side. It's hopefully a little less. I don't think it's as much political. I listen a lot to Jordan Peterson and he's all over the map.

Trey Carlson:

But what's fascinating about here we are in January of 2025 is, I think, on a local, national and global, just things are happening everywhere. Maybe the news we just find out about it more because we're more connected, but just the changes all over the place. And I'm not just talking about, you know, the US president, I'm talking about Canada and Mexico, the Middle East, europe. It's interesting to see. To bring it back to what this is about Venezuela I was just listening to that this morning All of these leadership cycles happening all over the place, all turmoil maybe not be the right word, but definitely upsetting the apple cart and what that's going to happen, usually as a federal agency, rolling into an election year like we just got to make it till November and then we can breathe easy.

Trey Carlson:

But I think 2025 is going to be very interesting and I'm hoping it's not negative interesting. I'm hoping that it's interesting getting people engaged and hopefully feeling more connected to their, to what they do, to their families, to their relationships and what's important to them they do to their families, to their relationships and what's important to them.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, there's a gentleman I don't know if you've come across him, ian Bremmer. Have you ever come across Ian Bremmer for any reason? Yes, yeah, okay, so yesterday I watched it was his thoughts on 2025. It was just an interview. It wasn't a TED talk although he does have a fascinating TED talk, which I'll put a link to in the show notes and he basically just took the interviewer on a tour of the world. Right, here's what's happening in Mexico, here's what's happening in Canada, here's what's going on in the Ukraine, here's what's happening in the Middle East, and he's just whether or not you agree with his predictions or his assessments. He's just very interesting to listen to and I think you're right. The seismic shifts that are whether it's geopolitical, whether it's digitization, whether it's any number of other ways we could have that conversation around shifts five generations in the workforce, gen Zs and millennials moving into leadership roles there's just a lot of shifts, a lot of shifts that impacts leadership in a very real way, a hundred percent.

Trey Carlson:

We grapple with that all the time about. There is no template. We've got folks in their early twenties that like, I want to be on property, I want to be on site every day, I want to see what's going on. And then we've got the reverse people that are their entire career. That is like I never want to step on property again, I'm happy to sit, and everything in between. So how do we manage in that environment? How do we lead?

Scott Allen:

Yes and yeah. I imagine you have folks in their seventies and I imagine you have folks in their early twenties. As you said, Some of those engineers don't want to quit. They keep going.

Trey Carlson:

Right, we got people here that our last accident as an agency in 2003, you know they were in diapers then or certainly went around in 9-11, you know. So it is an amazing time to have this volume of people out working together and trying to. So of course, it's going to be like a. It's going to be like a Thanksgiving meal. It's just a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. You've got kids at the kid table. Sometimes I feel like I've been at the kid table for 45 years now. I'm like simply adults, adults.

Scott Allen:

Well, Trey, thank you for the incredible work you do. Thank you for spending some time with me today. I really appreciate it and I look forward to connecting again, hearing about your progress, your observations on doing this work. I often think of leadership as just my personal mission. How do we better prepare people to serve in these really challenging roles? Because they're not easy, and so it's always fun to connect with folks doing that work and better understanding how you're making sense of it. You work for an incredible agency that has changed history and it's just so much fun to have that conversation.

Trey Carlson:

Well, thanks, Scott. This is enjoyable. I've been looking forward to this for several months now, especially after the holidays and everything. I appreciate it. I've enjoyed talking to you and since I've become connected with you, I've started listening to your podcast as well.

Scott Allen:

Oh well, good, Thank you for listening. Go launch a rocket or something.

Trey Carlson:

I got to get out of here.

Scott Allen:

Thanks, Okay relationships, learning and creating the context where, as a team, they can orient themselves in a way they can learn, develop and grow. Ensure that they are marching in unison, so the organization is doing so as well. Trey, thank you so much for your incredible work. Thanks to all of you for listening. Take care everyone. Have a great day. If you haven't done so, check out the show notes. There's a link to start thinking about Prague ILA, prague 2025. Take care everyone. Bye-bye.