Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Skip the Sexy Stuff: Why Leadership Development Needs to Start with the Boring Bits with Dr. Barrett Keene

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 294

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Dr. Barrett Keene is the Senior Director of Talent Development at Stanford Health Care. He previously served as Director of Talent Development at Intuit, where he led teams that develop leaders in Silicon Valley and across the world. Before Intuit, Barrett worked at Tesla as an executive coach and the Head of Leadership and Talent Development for Tesla’s Engineering organizations. In addition to Barrett’s work as an internal Leadership and Talent Development leader, Barrett spent four years helping nine Fortune 100 companies develop their leaders and employees with Accenture Strategy and the previous eleven years as an independent leadership development consultant within more than 80 organizations.

Before joining Accenture, Barrett completed a PhD at Cornell University focusing on Transformational Leadership and Behavioral Integrity and a Master of Business Management while teaching middle school and high school in Miami and Tampa. Barrett lives with his wife and children in Palo Alto, California.

A Quote From This Episode

  • “We’ve skipped over transactional leadership for too long, but without those foundations, the staircase of leadership falls apart.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode 

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.



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Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00 

Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Today, I have Dr. Barrett Keene. He is the Director of Talent Development at Intuit. And I am so excited for this conversation because anytime, Barrett, as I said to you, before we started recording, I have an opportunity to speak with someone who not only has the academic credentials, but then also has this real world experience of, “I'm actually developing leaders each and every day, designing, going through the instructional design, working through the constraints,” I always love those conversations. And so, I'm so thankful for your time today. And, before we jump in, what do the folks need to know about you? Provide a little bit of context, and then we'll jump into our conversation. 

 

Barrett Keene  0:43 

For those folks in academia, you may be wondering, okay, well, how did this guy, wrapped up, Cornell University, focusing on transformational leadership, full range of leadership model, concentrations, and industrial psychology, organizational behavior, why did he not end up in academia? And I'll just say I was planning on applying for professorships, but there was a kindergarten teacher in East Harlem, and she was really wonderful, and I really wanted to be able to convince her to be my wife. And so, I just took a job that would get me to her and her to wherever she wanted to go to grad school. And so, I ended up in strategy consulting, which I knew very little about, with Accenture Strategy. So huge, massive, 800,000-person company all across the globe, and specifically, in one unit, like kind of the most competitive, most innovative Consulting Group, which is their strategy consulting group. And I ended up really loving it. And so, we moved to New York City. She said, “Yes.” She got into Stanford University. She studies sociology. She wrapped up with a PhD, and now she leads research at the Claim and Gender Institute on campus, looking at domestic violence and sexual assault. And I ended up just never applying to be a professor. And so, yeah. I would have loved that too, but I've been very fortunate the last 11 and a half years to be developing leaders, developing people every day. And after four and a half years at Accenture, 13 different Fortune 500 companies, 11 Fortune 100 companies, five Fortune 50 companies, I had the chance to be able to help start leadership development, succession planning, performance management, talent reviews, and executive coaching at Tesla, where I was the executive coach for five of Elon's directs, which was very interesting, and fun, and dynamic. And then have the chance to be able to help recreate Leadership Development at Intuit, which is a financial tech company that I really love that is focused on helping the little person, the little guy, the little lady. And then, now, kind of the mid-sized companies as well, as well as consumers, be able to take care of what they need to take care of financially, and power prosperity around the globe. And I live in Palo Alto with my wife and my two little daughters, and we live close to Stanford University, and enjoy Silicon Valley, enjoy learning with the really innovative minds out here. But, at heart, I'm still a country boy who loves to read leadership textbooks and research articles and really enjoy thinking about maybe returning to academia sometime down the road.

 

Scott Allen  3:02 

Awesome. Well, you have your own leadership challenge there at home with two little ones. (Laughs)

 

Barrett Keene  3:08 

No doubt. No doubt. 

 

Scott Allen  3:12 

Well, okay, so we're going to hone in our conversation with a very simple question from me today, which is just, kind of, what are you seeing? What are some dynamics that you're experiencing right now? What are you seeing? You’re on the front lines of this work in organizational life. What are some themes that are popping up for you? What are you seeing? I'm just going to leave it there.

 

Barrett Keene  3:30 

That sounds great. Yeah, a few things come to mind. The first thing is generative AI. It is massive already, and it will continue to be. I work in tech, and so, every single day, our folks are using generative AI to be able to do what they need to do. If you are not using generative AI to do what you need to do and what you want to do, you're missing out, and you will be negatively impacted at some point in time in the future. And so, if you're not having the chance to be able to dive in and utilize it every week, every day, I would encourage you to do that and to practice. I think that's going to be massive. That's going to shift the way that companies operate. It's going to have significant implications for the way work gets done. And some people, including kind of the father of organizational culture, would say that's what organizational culture is; how work gets done. And so, I was listening to a podcast with the CEO from Anthropic, which is a kind of a newer company in the generative AI space. And he mentioned that he feels like, in the next 12 months, that 90% of coding can be done by AI. And so, consider, if something complex like coding can be done by AI, what else can be done? And so, it's going to be incredibly disruptive. It's going to be incredibly generative, impactful, and accelerant, but it's going to be huge. And so, I think that is one thing. And it may not feel kind of as relevant to us and leadership development, but imagine this, if you are supporting leaders, and you are not helping them augment their capabilities in terms of utilizing generative AI, they and your organization will be left behind. And if you're not helping them help their people build their capabilities in the generative AI space, it's going to be really impactful for folks. And so, yeah. I would just encourage folks to be able to dive in. Some of the time, I'm diving in every day. We're rolling out learning right now across all of our employees, being able to augment their capabilities to utilize generative AI. And that's one thing that's not necessarily traditionally focused on in a response to this question.

 

Scott Allen  5:33 

Well, I love it because I think, even as you think about Claude, or ChatGPT, or Copilot, serving as thinking partners. For instance, if you have a leader who's about to enter a difficult conversation and they need a little just-in-time coaching on some things to remember about navigating a difficult conversation, maybe even on a specific topic, well, that can be a thinking partner. Or if we're going to brainstorm, “Hey, how do we create a culture where Gen Zs feel like they can thrive?” And we just wanna brainstorm and have a conversation with a thinking partner, of course, it's not perfect, it's the internet. It's not truth, but it's another tool, to your point. And if we're not training our leaders to use this tool, I think, quickly, we could be left behind. 

 

Barrett Keene  6:22 

And so then, in addition to generative AI, three other things that come to mind, A) a set of foundational capabilities. And I studied the full range of leadership model, and I felt like we skipped over transactional leadership as something that you know you need to do well. It kind of needs to be the foundation, but then you get to the transformational leadership capabilities as quickly as possible. You think about [Inaudible 6:44], and then stimulation, inspirational motivation. And you're focusing more on those four, and you're just kind of moving quickly through the transactional. But the assumption that it's like a staircase, and if you aren't incredibly strong, those foundational capabilities, the staircase falls down. Those first few steps kind of get a little bit weak. And I think, in the academic space, we undersell the critical nature of those foundational capabilities significantly. And so, I'll share the other two pieces, and then I'll come back to this and that's okay. The other two pieces are staying focused on the customer problem. It's not something that we necessarily think about a ton, or talk about a ton kind of in the academic realm, but that's critical. And I had the chance to be on a small team when Satya Nadella came into Microsoft, thinking about shifting the organizational culture of Microsoft. And yeah, that was one of the major values that he wanted to institute. And, as you look at what Microsoft was doing in 14, and then what Microsoft has been able to do since then, you can see all over the fingerprints of being able to be staying focused on the customer problem and how that's absolutely transformed their business. We do the same thing at Intuit. That's kind of one of the first part of our leadership framework, our leadership model, we call it a playbook, it's staying focused on the customer problem. So, that's a big deal. And the last thing is leading with a clear vision, Kouzes and Posner will call that inspiring shared vision. But it's just critically important, and it's something that you have to do continually with all of your people. But coming back to those foundational capabilities, I feel like one of the things that I have not done a good job in over the last 11 years is appreciating fully the significance of those foundational capabilities and how hard they are to build in a specific group of leaders. So, Intuit, a third of our managers at any point in time have been a manager at Intuit less than one year because of just that dynamic nature of a tech company. And so, you're always having to invest in those foundational capabilities. And then, also, every time someone's context change, new team, they bump up from being a senior manager, group manager to a director. It's just a humongous change and shift in kind of what they're doing, how they're doing, how they're trying to scale themselves. And so, what it looks like to practice those foundational capabilities, it just gets more and more complex. And so, when I say foundational capabilities, you could go a lot of ways. How we're talking about it at Intuit is goal setting. Really being phenomenal at setting great goals, updating those as needed. They need to be specific, they need to be measurable, they need to be clear, they need to be bold, and they kind of set the foundation for everything. I think, for years, went to a leadership workshop when I was in ninth grade. We heard SMART goals. All right, fine. And goal setting always just seemed a little bit boring to me. And I think I underappreciated the critical nature of it, because it is. It's kind of the foundation for everything. We talk about clear priorities, which is incredibly hard to be able to ensure your team has clear priorities, every single one of your team members has clear priorities on a continual basis, and that they are kind of what they should be. Focused on the critical few tied to those goals. Providing actionable feedback, developmental feedback, and recognition feedback on an ongoing basis to accelerate the development of your people. And the last thing is removing barriers to speed and effectiveness. And I feel like this is also not something that Northouse doesn't have a chapter on, “How do you remove barriers for your team?” So, it can be a little bit under-focused on, I think, in some circles, but critical in terms of… Especially if you're in a dynamic industry like technology, it's all about speed, it's all about scale. And so, how do you move with that and ensure your team is… And so, we actually just rolled out a global initiative that's providing six weeks of blended learning for all of our directors, our M1s, our M2s, and 3. So, all director and below managers, which is over 90% of our leaders. And we've scaled that to all but three of our leaders. And so, coming next week, those last three individuals will complete day two of their virtual learning experience, and then they'll start their asynchronous learning journey after that. And so that's a big deal. And so, for scale, we're talking thousands of folks, but we're down to the last three. Not to get in specific details for the company in terms of number of leaders, the vast majority about, I'll say, 65, 70%, were in person at 10 different sites and then started their asynchronous journey, and the rest of the folks were in virtual workshops. 

 

Scott Allen  11:21 

That's awesome. And, as you were speaking, I'd never really had this insight until you just said it, but it's so true. We jump over management by exception or contingent reward. Jump over them. Leap over them. 

 

Barrett Keene  11:33 

Like something you have to do for you to get what you get to do, and it's off, honestly. 

 

Scott Allen  11:38 

Yes. Well, I see it. I see it so clearly because, if we don't have some of that management development, you could look at it that side of the house, so to speak, a little bit more management-oriented. And, of course, you have the 4Is that are a little bit more leadership, but it's so imperative that we… And this is the Achilles heel, and one of the Achilles heels of leader development is that we oftentimes don't scaffold it well. I've said on the podcast before, we should probably start with active listening. Let's go to a base-level skill that then stacks with something else, that then is the core of a relationship. And then, again, to your point, the actual job of establishing clear goals, setting clear roles, and holding people accountable, or creating a culture of accountability, influencing others, and delegating effectively. There's some basic blocking and tackling that you're bringing into the conversation right now that rarely has been discussed on this podcast. 

 

Barrett Keene  12:39 

And, to be honest, it's not basic. 

 

Scott Allen  12:41  

No.

 

Barrett Keene  12:42  

Not basic because the context is not basic. In the real world, the rubber meets the road where you're having to make massive, significant choices every single day, and you're exhausted. All of these things that seem basic when we talk about it are really hard. When you're making choices on decisions around what are the top five priorities for your team in order, and then making sure that your manager agrees, sharing those with your stakeholders, having points of disagreement about what is important because one team has a different list of five things, and your number one might not be on their number five but your closest stakeholder, and then your team members have different perspectives, and thoughts about what should be happening. Just that one thing is really hard. And then ensuring that each of your team members, they have a clear understanding what are their top three priorities in order. And then, next thing you know, the product that you're working on, that completely gets shut down, and then you're working and pivoting to something else, or there's an external shift, or you learn something from your customers that a product that you're working on is ineffectual in some way. And so, it's just so dynamic every single day that those foundational capabilities, which we want leaders to be able to do in their sleep, it's really hard. And so, in addition to six weeks of learning, we actually are planning April, May, June, July, to then have extension learning activities just focused on removing barriers and feedback. And then, we're coming back to goal setting in August and September. And then, we'll actually be revisiting these basics, these foundational capabilities, literally, from October 2nd last year, when we kicked off kind of this blended learning experience with workshops in San Diego until next December because we're trying to shore up the foundation of all of our leaders in terms of these foundational capabilities. And we talk about an augmentation effect, and then we will try to augment, but the challenging thing is we'll have hundreds of new leaders in the system next year. So, you're continually always working and onboarding their first full year of management. And moving into the way you're newly promoted or you're newly hired, how do we continue to shore up that foundation? And then, how do we revisit every two or three years these foundational capabilities across all of our leaders again? 

 

Scott Allen  15:06 

Yeah. The dynamics that oftentimes… You mentioned the Northouse textbook, and, of course, this is nothing against Peter Northouse or Bruce Avolio and Bernard Bass, so don’t take it that way. Oftentimes, these theories are divorced from some of those contextual realities like time constraints, contextual factors that can't take that into consideration, some of the real-time, very real-world issues that you're trying to navigate. Like, “Hey, we're going to have 30% new people in a year and a half, two years. How are we going to design that? How's that going to work?”

 

Barrett Keene  15:46 

And you're going to have that at all times. To be honest, when I transitioned kind of out of academia into this work, it hurt my feelings that nobody seemed to care about these theories. Does that make sense? 

 

Scott Allen  15:59  

Yeah.

 

Barrett Keene  15:46 

It made me really sad, but no one cares. No one cares about the theories that we hold so dear. They just don't. And that still burdens me because I think it's deep underappreciation for theories that can be incredibly helpful. But I literally have to, in my line of work, filter what I'm talking about and just say, “Nobody cares about these giants that we kind of hold dear, and for good reason.” But I have to just drop the names, drop the name of the theory, “And there's research based perspectives that would suggest X, Y, or Z.” And just keep it very simple because eyes begin to glass over the moment I start listing out the names of theories or the researchers that come up with them, which makes me still sad. It's just a different world, kind of, as a practitioner, that's less than ideal, too. 

 

Scott Allen  16:49 

Yes. I know you could potentially go a little bit deeper on those areas that you mentioned, but what else is on your radar? What are you thinking about? What's top of mind for you as you do this work? 

 

Barrett Keene  17:00 

Yeah. The other two are staying focused on the customer problem. I never heard that at all. 

 

Scott Allen  17:05 

Talk about it, because I've never talked about that on this podcast in almost 290 episodes. (Laughs)

 

Barrett Keene  17:10 

All right. Yeah, it's all good. All right. Come back with me to 2013, and let's try to think about some commercials that you might have seen. And so, the commercials from Microsoft were touting… They were comparing Microsoft products, the Surface, their tablet, versus an iPad, or their computers versus your MacBook. And they were basically trying to say, “Look at all these features. They're better. Our computer; the battery is longer, the computer moves faster, the memory is better. They're so much better than Apple in all these ways.” And Apple was serving their lunch to them, absolutely dominating Microsoft. And what they were doing is they were building very capable products that excited engineers, and weren't focused on the user experience as much as Apple. And Apple had simple products that didn't have some of the capabilities that Microsoft products were, but they absolutely dominated Microsoft and a market share to a point where Microsoft was beginning to crumble. And so, they hired an engineer, one of their engineers, to be their CEO, and he came in, and customer obsession became one of their company values. And it's something that we focused on, specifically with their pre-partner population, so think director and senior director. And there were 400 hypo leaders, and we had the chance to be able to develop a leadership development experience with their internal staff that was focused on building capability for their leaders, but all within the context of customer obsession. And shifted the culture with a lot of effort. I just played a very, very small part, but a lot of efforts to be able to increase a focus on customer obsession. And so, at Intuit, we also have a very, very deep history in terms of, we say, staying focused on the customer problem. But we do follow-me-homes where we are with customers all the time, understanding how do they use our products? Why would they use our products in ways that we would not expect for them to use our products, etc? And we try to just stay dialed in on the customer experience, the customer pain points, the customer needs. And then, the first behavior, on purpose, in our leadership playbook is staying focused on the customer problem. And when we crafted that leadership playbook because it was like week two at Intuit, when I heard that we were going to have this opportunity, I was like, “Well, that couldn't be any better.” We had focus on the customer problem. And our CEO said, “No, no, no, no, it's staying focused on the customer problem. That, every single day, you should know what your customers are dealing with, what their pain points are, what they need, and how can you deliver for them.” And that's the same thing. If you're a middle school teacher, how are you staying focused on the customer problem? We might call it individualized consideration. Does that make sense? 

 

Scott Allen  20:09

Yep. 

 

Barrett Keene  20:10

You know your customers deeply. If you're a mid-level manager, you know your team. You know their motivations, their insecurities, their deep desires, their long-term goals. What's happening outside of work. But you know your customers deeply, and then you serve your customers. And I just feel like it is under-attuned. Bob Keegan and immunity change, he said, “For too long, in leadership development, we have under-attuned to the development part of that, and we've over-attuned to leadership.” And I feel like that's an area of leadership development that I never heard about either. And then, you get in companies, really great companies, and you realize that is absolutely central to the way that they lead. It's something that we might think about in research as understanding the critical nature of that. How do leaders do that well? Why is it so critically important? But I would say it impacts everything. 

 

Scott Allen  21:08 

Yeah. Well, and you just made me, I'm literally speaking out loud so this might be the most horrible idea in the world, but you could look at transformational leadership at levels. You could look at it in individual level, a group level. But at the organizational level, is the organizational, to your point, of individualized consideration? If the organization is focusing on that population of people, that's a version of individualized consideration. Intellectual stimulation. Apple did a beautiful job of that as a company. The stimulating, “Wow, could I be like Jim Henson?” Again, in some of that ‘why’ literature that Sinek talks about where they sold kind of an identity versus a longer battery life, and it stimulated a number of people and activated a number of people, influenced a number of people to go and buy their products and to value their products, me included. So, it's such an interesting conversation. Well, as we begin to wind down our time, what is one other thing you'd like to express to listeners? What else comes to mind for you, sir? 

 

Barrett Keene  22:13 

Yeah. The last piece is the leading with a clear vision. Again, Kouzes and Posner will call it Inspire Shared Vision. I think one of the things that I have specifically been impressed with our CEO at Intuit, Sasan Goodarzi, is his perpetual, consistent focus on doing that. Does that make sense? So, somewhere between two and four times each year over the past six years, we have had a state of the company, and so that's where everybody gets together. It's a blast. And every single time, he has come back to, “What is our strategy, what are our big bets? Why is this critically important?” We show videos of interviews and videos where customers are talking about their problems, their challenges, and how does Intuit address those. How do we solve those? When you're a single mother trying to be able to get by, taking care of your kids, and you've got a little business, how are you doing that and how does Intuit be able to help you do the things you don't want to do or don't know how to do, to be able to provide for your family? And specifically, in that process, Lord and Brown wrote a book. It's been a while, but ‘Leadership processes and follower self-identity.’ And, in that book, they are incredibly critical of what we do in leadership development, and for good reason. And they basically make an argument that we approach leadership in a way that doesn't appreciate how incredibly complex it is. And when I say ‘we,’ I don't just mean folks in academia, I actually mean, more so, folks like me. And you're kind of, with one hand tied behind your back, kind of within the constraints and assumptions of the organizations you're serving, trying to do leadership development in a way. But what they would say is we basically say, “Look, you need to do A, B, and C, and you're going to get X, Y, Z.” And that is way more complex than that, and we take these behavioristic approaches. And so, what they recommend is a much bigger focus on the follower. They say that leadership might start with the leader, but it actually happens much more within the space in which the follower is making sense about themselves, making meaning about themselves. Who they desire to be, and those complicated spaces in between. But specifically, what some leaders like Satya Nadella and Sasan Goodarzi do incredibly well is they do… And Elon Musk, but to the point of kind of manipulation. Does that make sense? At Tesla, and I can share more about that sometime later because that was fascinating working there and doing leadership people development there. But how do you consistently share the vision on a consistent basis? And I think that's something that we don't emphasize enough. The over and over and over repetition does not ruin the prayer, it only amplifies it in this particular scenario. But then, how do we, as Lord and Brown would recommend, help people attach, who it is they see themselves and desire to see themselves, to that larger vision? And the critical nature of not just doing that, but doing that just like a repeated drumbeat in your organization. What is the vision and how do you help people connect who they deeply are, who they want to be based on their motivations, their values, their interests, to that larger vision? And it's critical. And it's one of the reasons why Tesla, in all of this kind of divisiveness and messiness and everything else, if you look at what they've been able to do, what no other startup in the automotive industry has been able to do, or energy right now, AI, is because they help their people attach who they deeply are, who they see themselves to that larger vision in a way that is so strong that small teams have beaten giants in multiple industries. And so, I think those are some areas that, not only both feel important, but also maybe underemphasized in research, in some ways, at least some of the nuances of them. That could be fun to think about and talk about more. 

 

Scott Allen  26:15 

Yeah. Well, Barrett, I'm so thankful for your time today. I'm thankful for your wisdom. I love the fact that you are day to day in the organization, doing that work, and then you're pulling out Lord and Brown. Bob Lord would feel really good right now. (Laughs) 

 

Barrett Keene  26:32 

Well, it's one of my favorite books. Honestly.

 

Scott Allen  26:33 

And so, it's wonderful. And so, we will talk again. We will put that on the radar for sure just because I've learned so much and just really, really enjoyed your challenging my thinking in new ways. And, of course, I just love that. I always close out by just asking what you've been listening to, what you've been reading, what's caught your attention in recent times. It may have something to do with what we've just discussed. It might be that you're watching ‘Severance.’ Whatever it is, what's caught your attention in recent times that listeners might be interested in?

 

Barrett Keene  27:04 

So, I was a middle and high school teacher, actually volunteered three years full-time. I'm kind of a bleeding heart, and I like to push myself, and I like to kind of learn on the edges and learn from people that have very different perspectives from me. So lately, I've actually been reading and listening to quite a lot of Jeffrey Pfeffer. Are you familiar with Jeffrey Pfeffer? 

 

Scott Allen  27:29

Power.

 

Barrett Keene  27:30

Yes, power. And, to be honest, I don't like some of the deep assumptions that are involved and that guide the work. But I'm currently listening to ‘Seven Rules of Power,’ and I have appreciation for informed perspectives that are different than mine. And so, reread ‘Managing with Power,’ which I read for the first time in like 2006. And I'm listening to ‘Seven Rules of Power,’ and I'm just trying to think about how do I question my own assumptions? How do I help leaders grow in ways that are very realistic, but then how do I do that in alignment with my own values, priorities, motivations? And so, yeah, I'm in a Pfeffer stage right now, and I'm being challenged, and I'm discarding some of it, and I'm incorporating what I can.

 

Scott Allen  28:15 

Well, he's down the road from you, isn't he?

 

Barrett Keene  28:18 

Yeah. My daughters love to play at the business school. Yeah. There's some really fun things they like to jump off of. He walked by just a couple of weeks ago. I said, “Hello,” and he said, “Hello,” but I didn't bother him. 

 

Scott Allen  28:31 

That's awesome. 

 

Barrett Keene  28:32 

He's so powerful. You know what I mean? So powerful, I didn't even bother with him. But yeah. And the last thing I would say is I've got a one and a four-year-old, so I haven't been to ILA in a minute. Next year, I plan on going. And so, I would love to get connected, I'd love to get involved. And so, if folks that are listening want to chat, I like learning from people that are doing this great work and studying this great work. And so, if you have perspectives, you have questions, don't hesitate to reach out. I have a lot to learn and then a little to give, and I'm happy to be able to help however I can, and happy to be able to learn from folks every day. So, hopefully, I'll see you, well, not in Prague, but maybe I'll see you next year, wherever that may be at the next conference. 

 

Scott Allen  29:15 

I'm not sure. It may be in Canada again, I don't know. But yes, I would love that. And, as always, thank you so much, sir. Appreciate your time today. Thanks for the good work that you do, and we'll do it again. 

 

 

[End Of Recording]