Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Content Fatigue with Scott Ritzheimer

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 297

Share episode

Send us a text

Scott Ritzheimer has helped start nearly 20,000 new businesses and nonprofits, and with his business partner started and led their multimillion-dollar business through an exceptional and extended growth phase (over 10 years of double-digit growth all before he turned 35. 

He founded Scale Architects to help businesses across the country identify the right growth strategies and find the right guides to get them on the fast track to Predictable Success and stay there as long as possible.

He now travels across the country to speak to and consult with founders, CEOs, and their teams to help them not only grow but scale their businesses and do it all without the hustle.

Quotes From This Episode

  • “The problem isn’t a lack of information; it’s knowing which information to act on right now.”
  • "Pulling lessons from your future into your present only adds weight and slows you down.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.


♻️ Please share with others and follow/subscribe to the podcast!
⭐️ Please leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or your platform of choice.
➡️ Follow me on LinkedIn for more on leadership, communication, and tech.
📜 Subscribe to my weekly newsletter featuring four hand-picked articles.
🌎 You can learn more about my work on my Website.



Speaker 1:

Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world, and today I have Scott Ritzheimer. I have been on his podcast. He is now joining me. Wealth of knowledge, Scott helped start nearly 20,000 new businesses and nonprofits and, with his partner, started their multimillion-dollar business through an exceptional and extended growth phase over 10 years of double-digit growth, all before he turned 35. Today he helps founders and CEOs identify and implement the one essential strategy they need right now to get them on the fast track to predictable success. Sir, thank you so much for being with me today. Very, very much appreciate your time, Really looking forward to this conversation, because you are out there in the wild. You are having conversations with individuals, with leaders, both on the podcast but then in your work, and I think the direction we're going to take the conversation is what are you hearing out there in the wild? What are you experiencing right now? What are leaders struggling with? What are leaders navigating? Thank you so much for being here, sir Scott, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2:

There's always this moment when I bump into another Scott because there aren't that many of us, you know, but there's enough. And it reminds me of this scene from Seinfeld where Kramer is lost in downtown New York City and he calls Seinfeld in a frenzy you know, help me, help me. And he's like well, where are you? And he's like looking around from a phone booth you remember those and he sees the street sign and it's first and first. He's like I'm at the nexus of the universe and I was. When Scott and Scott get together, I think we've got a nexus moment happening. Not that nexus of the universe actually makes any sense at all but, that's how I feel every time, so thanks for having me.

Speaker 2:

I'm excited to be here. Love the podcasting world. I think it's super cool, got into it as kind of a side project and fell in love with it. I think, similar story to you and, yes, met so many wonderful people, learned so many amazing things. And that's actually a little bit of the problem that I'm seeing right now is we have more access to great information than we ever have and it's just pouring in from everywhere and so you can go in any given moment, any given week you can find 50 podcasts with 50 amazing guests that tell you 50 amazing things that you must be doing to transform your business and your leadership. And that's a real problem, because folks that come to me in my coaching practice I hear it a lot they're just torn in so many different directions already that it's like the last thing that they need is more things that they should be doing. That's only going to ramp up, as the you know, I'm not an AI expert by any stretch of the imagination, but you can just see that what is gonna proliferate that information even further.

Speaker 2:

And the real challenge there is how do you know what you actually should be doing. When you have this overwhelming wealth and abundance of information, how do you know what you should be doing? And the reality of it is like it's not actually working all that great. You would think that if we had all this information and we were able to share all this information as freely as we can, particularly in the podcast world, then we would see some kind of commensurate rise in the success of leaders. And the reality we don't. You know, you see successful stories, but you don't see this statistical significant gain in anything from when we start to how we scale and ultimately to the succession process, all three of which myself and my team focus on.

Speaker 2:

But what we've really got to get to the bottom to is how do we know, not what we need to do, but what we need to do right now, and I think that's the real wisdom that folks need. That's the real insight that we need. There's a proverb that says gives me insight and the virtue to live it out. And when we get a bunch of information but we don't have the wisdom to filter it and then we lack the confidence to have the virtue to actually implement it and we end up worse off than we were before, because when we didn't know it we didn't feel bad about it. You know now that we know it and can't do it, now we feel bad about it. So there's this whole shame thing that gets wrapped up into it, and I see a lot of leaders struggling a lot more than they should simply because they have access to all this information but they don't know what to do with it.

Speaker 1:

When you called it, you called it content fatigue. I mean that's just a beautiful kind of framing of it. I see this in leadership all the time and again. Having done almost 300 episodes just on the topic of leadership, I mean it's confusing, and so what's really been kind of fun. Scott and I agree with you on we're a little bit of a dying breed. I haven't met anyone recently who when I said what's your kid's name, they said Scott. It's kind of like Carl or Gary, it's just not, you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, it's not going anywhere anytime soon, but you know it's been so much fun in these five years of doing the podcast to try and distill it down to okay, what does someone need to know about leadership? Like, okay, yes, there are literally tens of thousands of things you could know. Do you have domain expertise? Are you self-aware? Do you have character? Are you an individual who can build relationships like a heat-seeking missile? Those are some great places for you to start and kind of cutting through all of that and helping synthesize and really, I think, prioritize that's in some ways, what is so critical for me is just the prioritization of the thousands and thousands of things that are coming at folks and I loved your use of that word wisdom, the wisdom to know what of these to prioritize right now. But that content fatigue, that's great phrasing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it really is, and I think one of the things that I've honed in on. We just released episode 300 of our podcast just recently and in it marked a pretty big pivot in terms of how we're addressing this issue of content fatigue and one of the things that we're doing and our audience is leaders, but predominantly founders of nonprofits and for-profits, and so that's kind of the core of my audience and my target, and so I might slip into founder talk here a little bit catch me if I do but one of the things that we've done for our audience has said hey, there's roughly 70% of our content that you don't have to pay any attention to, because what we've done is I wrote a book on the founder's evolution and we go through these seven different stages that founders go through, and so we've actually used that structurally to categorize and stratify, if you will, the different podcast episodes.

Speaker 2:

To say, hey, when you're in this stage, this is something to pay attention to, but if you're not in this stage, I'd actually prefer that you don't. Now. If you do, that's fine. You can be curious, you can learn, you can get an idea of what's ahead, but you don't feel any need to implement this anytime soon because it's either in your future or it's in your past. Love it.

Speaker 2:

And that's been met really, really well for our folks and, I think, for leaders. There's this same kind of journey that happens, and I think it's a helpful way for folks to filter out. What should I be paying attention to as a leader? What should I be paying attention to as a leader? Because not all things are created equal at all times and there are some things that will be very, very good in your future. There were some things that were very, very good in your past but may not represent the core, and to illustrate this point, I'll start with one of the early transitions. So, first off, our definition of leadership is any action that moves a group of two or more toward their shared goals.

Speaker 1:

Great, that's awesome.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, so pretty simple. And that means that it's not positional necessarily, it's not stylistic necessarily, it's not even all that noble. It's very practical in terms of his application and so the secretary can lead just from stage two to stage three. But for leaders, it's this move from what I call the player on the field to the captain on the field Nice, right, and it's. Some folks will call it player coach, and I think that misses it a little bit, because what's happening is you are primarily responsible for you early on, and leadership looks like doing your job really well in the context of a team, making the team better by your presence, but it's mostly like make sure you keep your position. Your side it's the left side, strong side or whatever it is they say in Remember the Titans, you know, and so you get really, really good at that, and what happens is, you know, success in that stage necessarily thrusts you into the next one, and what's really confusing about it is you're still on the field. Like it would make sense if it was like okay, you're off the field now. Now you have. Now.

Speaker 2:

That's a hard transition to make for a lot of folks, but at least it makes sense, and especially in the sports world because there's now a big boundary line between you and the game, yes, and so it's not quite like oh, I can just be a leader because I have my own job to do still, and I can't not be a leader because I've got you know, we use a football analogy I've got 10 other people expecting me to call the audibles at the ground level, and if you're a shift supervisor, the five or six people reporting to you, whatever it might be, and so what you needed to do to lead well in that star player mode is different than what you need to do to lead well at the captain on the field mode.

Speaker 2:

And if you just absorb content that is, here's how you manage your time best and here's how you do this skill best and here's how you communicate best, those are all great, but they're missing the centrality of what's necessary to succeed as a leader in that role. So if you can recognize these different, very fundamental shifts, how leadership is expressed at these different stages in your career, it's very, very helpful as a filter saying, hey, is this episode of a podcast actually helpful for me right now? We found that's been very helpful for the founders in our audience and again, I think it's a good filter for folks to use. So I'm not saying turn things off, but I'm saying, hey, when you're listening, you can listen out of curiosity or you can listen to find the next thing you need to work on. Those are two different modes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I absolutely love that. I mean, in some ways you're expressing wisdom in the sense that we are distilling and we are scaffolding the learning. So one way to think about scaffolding the learning is like, if I want to train a surgeon, where do I start? Well, maybe a gallbladder. That's probably a good place to begin, probably even before the gallbladder. But in the action of actually, you know, conducting surgery, or if it's a pilot, I'm going to start with a Cessna, not a 747.

Speaker 1:

And you know, I think it's up to us as content creators. Of course we are on our own journeys of understanding and making sense of kind of the domain. But I love the space you're in because you're starting to scaffold the learning. Again, if I was trying to train a black belt, these are the white belt best practices, the white belt fundamentals you are going to need to know. They're timeless, they exist, they are foundational, and then we're going to move you on to yellow or green.

Speaker 1:

I always forget what the second one is, but I think that is a master teacher, someone who has made sense of that complexity and also someone who scaffolds the learning well, because the challenge I see and you see this all the time, especially with the content fatigue. We are bouncing people's minds around from systems thinking and complexity down to ethics and character, and it's just a shit ton of noise. Sorry for swearing, but it's just noise. So how do we get our own thinking clean? So I love that you're in some ways filtering out, like I'd almost prefer you didn't listen to these episodes until we're in this space here.

Speaker 2:

A hundred percent it really is. And to make it a little funny, if you imagine, because it's all well-meaning and good, right? If someone walks this journey, so let's say we're going from LA to Chicago, right, I've never done it before. What's a wise thing to do? Ask somebody else who's walked that road. You made it to Chicago, what's it like? And they're like I froze my tail off in Denver like froze like nearly died.

Speaker 2:

Make sure you're wearing really warm clothes when you go. And so you're like, good, got it Not going to freeze? Bundle up, take off out of LA and you're like you're ready for the Rockies. Well, before you hit the Rockies, you got to get through Death Valley, and if you're dressed for the Rockies in Death Valley, you're not going to make it real far right.

Speaker 2:

And so again there's this time function of it. It's not what do you need to do, as much as when do you need to do. Yes, you have to be dressed for the Rockies in the Rockies, that's wisdom. But if you're dressed for the Rockies in Death Valley, you're not going to make it through Death Valley because it's hot. And so you get this challenge, where again, we have these wonderful people who are way down the road, who are looking back saying, hey, I wish I had known this, but they haven't quite crystallized it to. I wish I knew this at this point. And so everyone else somewhere earlier down behind them on the road is thinking, well, I must get ready for that, and we're just piling equipment on, equipment on equipment on, and ultimately it's really not helpful and I think, if anything, it actually increases the failure rate because we're fighting through all of that equipment to just try and take the next step.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's so well said and you're actually almost paralyzed with equipment, like I don't even know. I know I need this, but I don't know when I'm going to need it and it's just adding weight and baggage.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So that's the problem. To crystallize this, that's the problem of pulling lessons from your future into your present. It is possible to be over-prepared, it's not. You know, the Boy Scouts are going to be prepared for everything. We were talking about the front end Swiss army knives, right, but at some point there is the possibility for leaders to engage in activities and skills and development and tools and equipment that they don't need yet. So there's that problem of pulling from the future right, which I think is happening more now than ever.

Speaker 1:

There's the age-old problem of hanging on to the past well, yes, I mean, in all of these transitions, I need to let go, I need to morph into a new version of me yes, that's a whole nother domain.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and that's the, the language we use around. That is evolving because it's taking what is and making it something different, but not completely, completely abdicating what was. Now that's really tricky, because it's like what do you hold on to and what do you let go of? And the answer to that is different at every stage. And so, you see, there's kind of an accumulation of skills throughout a leader's career, but the reliance on those skills, especially the early ones, diminishes over time. It's not about what you do with your hands, it's about what you do through others. As we go further in this process and you brought up a really interesting parallel earlier, which was flying and learning to fly. And when you fly the tail dragger or the Cessna, or was it the Piper, I think, is what I flew.

Speaker 2:

And when you fly those and you get your pilot's license initially it's basically a visual license. You're able to fly during the day, when it's not cloudy, and over distances that you can travel without Limited distance, limited height. Why? Because the way that you navigate, the way that you keep from dying, is by seeing the ground. It's like where are you trying to go? You're looking out the window. What happens when you try and cross the Atlantic by seeing, you know, like you can't. What happens when you need to fly above the clouds? You can't fly visually.

Speaker 2:

And so a big part of this is you've got a pilot. It's like well, I've flown visually, I've always flown visually. It's always been good enough, granddaddy flew visually. You know, and we get into this mode of like, that's how I've always done it. And you know again, regardless of how you fly, eventually, if you look out the window, there's a mountain there, like I don't care what the instrument says, like, so you don't abandon that, yeah, but you enhance it, you complement it, you learn to fly by controls, and so a big part of what happens again as leaders is that at some stage in our career right, and we can talk about how to identify that you have to stop playing visually. You've got to move from that. Hey, I know how to make decisions because I'm there in every single moment to. I know how to make decisions because I've got this set of controls ahead of me. That's giving me the feedback I need to make great decisions. So it's a new skill at a new time. We don't abandon the old one, but we adopt the new one.

Speaker 1:

Well and the stakes get higher. I'm no longer in a Piper or a Cessna, now I have 400 humans with me and that could be a very, very nice parallel to a VP who's leading a division and if they have not successfully made that transition, successfully kind of integrated into that new way of being, let go of what they and again, that's the wisdom what do I need to let go of? What do I need to live into and transform? But to your point, in the original kind of the content fatigue, I think in some ways we can be part of the problem in our own exploration of, in some ways, learning in public. It becomes a lot of noise in the minds of the individual. I see that in the classroom all of the time when it comes to the topic of leadership. We are telling a player about how to build teams and they're not there yet. They just need to be playing well, they need, you know, ethical behavior.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, it's 100% right. You got to learn to manage yourself right before you can manage anybody else. So there's enough to work on Like. There's just enough to work on to like get yourself like I'm the toughest guy for me to lead. Let's just all be honest with that. And so when we complicate it with and you need to know all these strategies and you need to have all these techniques and you have to have all these.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's too much, at the wrong time. And and again, nothing against all of those things. They're critical for someone who's stepping into that VP type role, but they're not as critical for the new leader coming up out of business school.

Speaker 1:

Well, too much at the wrong time. I mean, it's just beautifully phrased. How else are you thinking about navigating some of that? Scott? I think it's up to us to get our own thinking clean, and it sounds like you're in that process of getting your thinking clean of look. This is when you need to know this, and these are the fundamentals at these different levels. Any other little nooks and crannies of that conversation that are kind.

Speaker 2:

So another part of it if when is a really important question, that kind of presupposes a journey. There's a beginning point and at least one destination point and maybe others along the way, and so if we're going to navigate the when question successfully over time, we've got to have a clear sense of where we are and where we want to get to. And again, this is particularly true of founders, but there's a lot of parallels to leadership in general, and so one of the things in writing the book, one of the big challenges that I've come across, is that everyone automatically thinks that they need to get to stage seven because it's the last and the greatest stage, and it's just patently false. There's nothing that says you're a better person by evolving to the next level of leadership, and so we've got this kind of bigger is better mentality in everything, and so a huge part of what compounds the emotional pain caused by content fatigue is that we start absorbing content and even when it's right for taking us to the next level we don't actually need to get to and we shouldn't get to the next level. It's actually not in alignment with where we want our career to go, and so you get this compounding effect of all this information.

Speaker 2:

Now you're responsible for all of it. You feel this pressure to go up and to the right and you leave behind the thing that you love to do. You know, like there are a lot of you know I'll use the coffee shop owner there's a lot of people who start coffee shops to make great coffee. And when you get and you do that well, people like you should open another shop on the other side of town. You should open another shop on the other side of town.

Speaker 2:

And now, all of a sudden, you're leading three shops. You're not making coffee at all. You're sitting behind a desk, you're trying to figure out why you're not profitable and you mean you're just, you're hating life and it's like you built that thing. Why would you build something that you don't want to do? And again, the same thing is for leaders Like you don't have to get to the next level of leadership. It's again another plane metaphor, just like being on a plane. Sometimes the closest exit is behind you. Sometimes the best destination for you is where you just were and you can go hang out there, at least for a while. And so a big part of it is normalizing for folks that there's no moral mandate to reach the next level. Sometimes all we need to do is learn to thrive where we are right now, and I would argue it's actually most of the time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because that individual who was the pilot and now is the chief pilot, or that individual who is the architect and now they're leading the studio we just go down the list of these examples. You know the accountant that is now gunning for partner and engaged in business development and they just love being behind a screen looking at spreadsheets. You're completely changing my job and my energy might not be there. So all along these ways kind of interjecting conversations for people to at least, because there's nothing worse than putting someone in a position of authority who doesn't like people, want to care for people, elevate others it's just not going to work well, it's not sustainable.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because it's better right and we can't even say why, you know. And there are things that are better, don't get me wrong. Like there are advantages in every stage, but there are disadvantages in every stage as well. And so for some reason, we like disregard all the disadvantages of the next stage and just pay attention to the advantages, and we disregard all the advantages of the current stage and just pay attention to the disadvantages. And then we weaponize this need to get to the next stage because somehow that's going to solve all the disadvantages and leave us with all the advantages and neither one is true To your point. Like, if you're not designed for that next stage, not only is it not better, it's worse, because it's just not what's for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Now I don't know if you've seen this, if you've been engaged in some of these conversations and I don't want to turn this into a generations kind of conversation only because I struggle with that some and something I'm hearing in accounting and in law and healthcare is that Gen Zs and maybe millennials are a little more aware of what they do and don't want.

Speaker 1:

And so what I'm bumping into is you know, you have some of these firms and organizations that are kind of predicated on a cohort of humans killing themselves to elevate to a certain level, like, let's just say, partner, and millennials are saying, yeah, I'm not really so interested and I'm going to be with my son and I'm not interested in traveling 40 percent of the time. I mean in those conversations a little bit more. I mean in those conversations a little bit more. And then, of course, the senior leaders, gen Xers and, in some cases, baby boomers, a little befuddled because they're like well, what do you mean? You don't want to be partner? What do you mean? You don't want to? You know, rise to the next level, kind of that unconscious, just assumed you know end goal. So I'm in those conversations more and more. Have you seen any of this?

Speaker 2:

Notice this. Yeah, let me frame it in a slightly different way that I think is helpful. I think that previous generations were very good at I have to, I have to show up, I have to do my dues, and the system was dependent on a group of people committing to what they had to do. We had to do that to get through World War II. So there's a certain element that just became the ethos but that inherently creates resistance. Nobody wants to have to do something, especially for someone else, for an extended period of time. So there's this inherent resentment that comes from that.

Speaker 2:

I think that you see in later generations a recognition of that resentment and an accurate diagnosis that a significant portion of it came from this idea that we had to and a questioning of that, and so the proposed alternative is I want to, and that's not a whole lot better. Right, it solves some of the problems, but it's like there's lots of things that I want to do and most of them are mutually exclusive. Like I want to be in shape and I want to eat ice cream, I want to sleep in and I want to be productive. It's like being moved by our want-tos. You sacrifice a whole lot of resilience, because those want-tos are so emotionally based oftentimes that they'll just move and flip and flow, and that's not all that great either. I think where we succeed as a society is when we really move to what we choose to do right.

Speaker 2:

It's that high agency. I want to achieve this, I need to achieve that, but this is what I choose to do and so it's not. You know, it's informed but not moved by our wants. It's informed but not directed by our needs, what our have tos, but it's what we choose to do. Hey, I see that opportunity and I see what it would gain and what it would cost. I see this opportunity, what it would gain and I choose this.

Speaker 2:

And when we can take agency for that, when we can own our decision of our trajectory and our path and where we're going and we stick to that language of hey, I chose this, it's hard, but I chose it. Man, like it unlocks such an extraordinary power. You can see people do unbelievably hard things because they choose to wow. The different generations have different takes, but it's kind of equal but opposite errors. And I think what goes down the middle of that and what is available to both sides of the generational divide that you listed there is the ability to say, hey, sure, there's all these things I feel like I have to do, but this is what I choose to do. Yeah, all things I want in my career, but this is what I choose to do. Yeah, all things I want in my career, but this is what I choose.

Speaker 1:

I like that framing. I like it a lot. I really do, because, yes, the I want to or don't want to can be taken to an extreme and is just as unhealthy and it keeps people stuck sometimes. And I mean there is a level of resilience, grit. I mean there's a balance. In any job I have to do some things that I'm not so excited about, and that's a piece of it. And in any job there's things I choose to do and there's things I want to do. But if we go to either of those polarities to a certain extreme, it's unhealthy. It feels to me like the choose is a nice kind of place.

Speaker 2:

Well, and it's interesting, gretchen Rubin talked about her four tendencies and it's basically an Eisenhower matrix of where do you get the input that you need to move forward? And it's either you need it from the outside or you resist it from the outside. You need it from the inside or you resist it from the outside, and it's the four different combinations of those two. And that's really what we're talking about here.

Speaker 2:

Want to is the intrinsic, I'm moved by my own desires, and need to is the extrinsic. I'm moved by external desires. And I would say most of us are to some extent wired in some combination of those two. And again, choose to what choose to mandates is hey, I recognize this natural wiring, but I'm going to own it, I'm going to control it, I'm not going to let it move me. And what it requires is some degree of vision for where we're going, some degree of purpose, mission, fill in the blank with whatever noun you want to use there, but there's a destination to use the language from earlier in the conversation, and that destination is exceptionally powerful. And it's a destination to use the language from earlier in the conversation, and that destination is exceptionally powerful and it's a bit tricky as well.

Speaker 1:

Scott, I very, very much appreciate the conversation. I think we've given listeners a lot to think about and reflect on. Very much because, again, you are in these conversations, you are helping these business owners. I love your framing of what is the right content right now and how are we going to scaffold this so that you can be successful, so that you can navigate one of these hidden landmines which is content fatigue. That's a hidden landmine and again, I think often well-intended individuals can be a part of the problem. And how do we as content creators, how do we as educators, get our thinking as clean as possible to help people navigate that? I think it's a wonderful mission. It's an absolutely wonderful mission.

Speaker 1:

So I always conclude these conversations by asking guests what they've been listening to streaming, what's caught your attention in recent times? It could have something to do with what we've just discussed. It might have nothing to do with what we've just discussed. For instance, I've been watching the Bear season four and it's awesome. So what's caught your attention? Listening to streaming, reading what's something that listeners might be interested in?

Speaker 2:

So I don't have a specific source of this. I wish I did. But I have been highly intrigued by sport science, particularly as it pertains to organizational psychology and how much the sciences of sport you know stimulus, recovery, adaptation plays out organically in organizations, and so I've been nerding out on a whole bunch of sport scientists from all kinds of different disciplines and just been intrigued by the parallels between that and the work that I do with organizations.

Speaker 1:

Oh, it's amazing. I mean, you know I've been working a little bit recently on helping leaders just develop their own personal leadership profile, like, okay, you're the coach, quote unquote what is it like to work for you, what are your non-negotiables, what are your expectations? And it's amazing how great coaches John Wooden framed that up beautifully, down to like how you should put on your socks. I mean, he may be bordered on micromanagement, but he was damn good and you knew he cared right and he cared about you as a human. But but he had a philosophy. Coach K had a philosophy. And so I see it all the time in organizational life where you have these people in positions of authority with no clue of what their philosophy is, of framing up what it's going to be like to work for me and be on this team. It's just amazing. So I 100% agree with you.

Speaker 1:

I think there's a lot of lessons that we could take from that domain that are incredibly valuable. Yeah, absolutely Very much so. Even the literature K Anders Ericsson I don't know if you ever came across him. He was one of the founders of the expertise literature, so how you become an expert and he didn't care what the domain was violin, cello Gladwell's 10,000 hours came from his research, but it was bastardized by Gladwell in many, many ways. But, yes, I mean, there's so much that can be learned from that space. That nicely translates, of course, not everything, but I love it Sports science, yep. Well, sir, thank you so much, appreciate the conversation today, appreciate you taking the time, and you know what. I'm going to put some links in the show notes for listeners so you know how to connect with Scott and his work and his books. And, sir, thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

Scott, thanks for having me, it was a pleasure.

Speaker 3:

Content fatigue. I sometimes wonder if I have been contributing to that.

Speaker 1:

I think I have Failing forward, failing forward, but you know what A new version of this podcast is kind of on the horizon and I'll share a little bit more about that soon. But this conversation with Scott my fellow Scott has really helped inform how I might just approach that podcast and for that I am super thankful To all of you. I'm thankful Almost five years we've been doing this podcast and you've been listening and I appreciate that and I am thankful for that. Take care, everybody, be well. Thanks so much to Scott. Bye-bye.