Leadership From The Land with Dr. Eric Kaufman & Brian Zimmerman

Dr. Eric Kaufman is a Professor, Extension specialist, and associate head for Virginia Tech’s Department of Agricultural, Leadership, and Community Education. He developed and now coordinates Virginia Tech’s graduate certificate program in Collaborative Community Leadership.  He also supports an academic major in Community Leadership and Development, as well as an undergraduate minor in Leadership and Social Change.  Eric’s research investigates and promotes collective leadership, with special emphasis on followership, problem solving, and leadership-as-practice.  He is a past president of the Association of Leadership Educators (ALE) and a past chair of the International Leadership Association (ILA) Followership Community.  His professional recognitions include the Distinguished Agricultural Leadership Educator Award from the American Association for Agricultural Education (AAAE).

Brian Zimmerman has served as CEO of Cleveland Metroparks since 2010, overseeing more than 25,000 acres of parks, trails, golf courses, and the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo. Under his leadership, the organization has added more than 4,000 acres of protected land, expanded access across six counties, added 60+ miles of trails, and revitalized hundreds of acres of Cleveland lakefront. He has also guided major investments in Cleveland Metroparks Zoo, including nationally recognized animal habitats and conservation initiatives. Zimmerman’s work has earned numerous honors, including the 2021 National Gold Medal Award for Excellence in Park Management and recognition as one of Ohio’s most influential civic leaders.

A Couple of Quotes From This Episode

• “You cannot control every outcome and you cannot control every person. You have to empower your people to get there.”
• “If I'm surrounding myself with the right people, and I'm empowering them to be successful, we can accomplish great things together.”
• “We need to stop thinking about leadership as something individuals do and start seeing it as something communities build together over time.”

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Attend The Global Conference in Toronto, October 28-31.

About  Scott J. Allen

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Transcript

Scott Allen: [00:00:00] Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Excited for today's conversation. It's a conversation that I have never had and I can't believe after 300, and I don't know what episode this is, 3 25, maybe 3 28. I have not touched on this topic, and so today I have a long time friend Eric Kaufman, and I have a new friend, Brian Zimmerman.

I'm gonna ask each of them to introduce themselves briefly and then. We're gonna jump into our conversation for the day. Eric, how are you, sir? How is Blacksburg, Virginia on this fine Friday afternoon? 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Yeah, it's a wonderful spring day in Blacksburg. Really enjoying it. Glad to connect with you on the podcast.

Scott. I have been a long time listener. I don't know if I listened to all of them, but I think I've missed, listened to most of your NIC'S podcasts and forced my family to do the same. And certainly we appreciate the history we've had connecting, I think first with the Association of Leadership Educators and serving on that board together.

Scott Allen: Yes. So thank you sir. Professor of Leadership, [00:01:00] Eric Kaufman. Brian Zimmerman, CEO of the Cleveland Metro Parks Award winning. Just an incredible organization. Sir, tell us a little bit about you. 

Brian Zimmerman: Thank you so much for having me. This is a true honor, getting to talk about leadership in in, in the sense of it, it that hubbing around like agriculture and growing up, in rural Wisconsin currently in Cleveland, Ohio.

Never imagined essentially a desk job. Really loved to be, outdoors and whatever that meant. And it could have meant. Walking in the woods, fishing in a stream. It could have been showing cattle at the county fair. It could have been something a leadership journey, judging soils for FFA.

In my current role here of Cleveland Metro Parks, we have approximately 25,418 acres. We have nine golf courses, 18 park reservations, five nature centers. We do have some agriculture. We do some farming. We have a world class zoo. We grow a bunch of our own brows. So it's a very dynamic system.

We have a hundred person police force. We run 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. 

Scott Allen: And I loved Brian approximately [00:02:00] 25,418. 

Brian Zimmerman: Details matter, in leadership you wanna be definitive in how you answer a question so you leave no gray area. That's one of the things I think too often we take for granted that people like they get.

The in-between. Sometimes you have to fill it in between to make sure that they exactly know what you were talking about and what, and it's not directives, but it's most times it's like direction. And so that helps. I always say details matter and it matters to us that we are stewarding the 25,418 acres that matters to us.

Scott Allen: And it's an organization that has mattered to me and my family in very real ways. So for listeners I, it was probably almost 20 years ago now that I stumbled across this organization called the Association of Leadership Educators, a LE, and there's an annual conference. It's every summer.

Would love for you to prioritize that if you are in leadership education. And, I stumbled upon this wonderful group of human beings, but the background and the history of that organization, that it's an. Agriculturally based [00:03:00] organization. And so Eric, would you give us a little bit of a history lesson on a LE, but then also leadership from this background of four H, future Farmers of America, FFA.

So go ahead and give us a little bit of a context setting, if you would. 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Yeah and I'll just paint my picture into that background a little bit too. I grew up in Ohio, rural community. Like other rural students, and maybe particularly those that are more introverted probably lacked a little bit of self-confidence.

Wasn't quite sure what I was going to do, and found the opportunity to grow that self-confidence and learn about leadership through a student organization. And that happened to be FFA which historically was feature Farmers of America. It has evolved. It grows leadership far beyond just the production agriculture side of things.

And through that organization that got me involved in agriculture education, because that's the curriculum that's aligned with the student organization and going through that process and [00:04:00]that history of developing youth in these rural areas is something that predates a lot of our formal leadership development programming.

Scott Allen: Yes, 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: and I learned about some of that as I went onto graduate school and studied leadership more and thinking about the history of some of the adult agricultural leadership programs, which also predated a lot of the programs that we see. Maybe you have a Chamber of Commerce programs, something like that really focuses on community leadership.

A lot of those are rooted in what was originally the Kellogg Farmer Study program. And around the 1950s and sixties there was this recognition that farmers being really good at farming and doing their thing on their farm, being really good at growing things, producing things selling them at whatever marketplace they were headed to that was not going to be enough.

The issues in the broader society, whether we're talking about urban rural interface, whether we're talking about, [00:05:00] government regulations or even competitiveness in realizing that, look, in order to make enough money, you've got to work beyond just your own skillset and collaborate with other people.

And there was a recognition that individuals just being a really good farmer was not going to be enough. The Kellogg Foundation, the same foundation that the cereal comes from, they had resources that they said, let's bring together farmers. And help them figure out how to collaborate, work together and address a lot of these issues, develop some of their competencies and speaking, advocating for the work that they're doing.

And that Kellogg Farmer Study Program was the foundation of many of the leadership programs that we see even outside of agriculture today. And so you take that sort of the adult side with the youth side with FFA and four H, many of those things were rooted in land grant universities that have a college of agriculture and life sciences like Virginia Tech.

And so then we saw leadership studies [00:06:00] programs emerging in colleges of agriculture and people outside of agriculture said, what in the world? Why is that in agriculture? Business doesn't have the sole, opportunity to focus on leadership. It's the reality is that business puts money into leadership development, but outside of business, there's a lot of need for leadership.

And we've been doing some work in the agriculture context for quite some time. We're celebrating about a hundred years with FFA and even longer with four H. And we've had people that have been thinking about how do we develop leadership? In that space and setting, and so I'm glad to be a part of it and continue to study that and help others in that space as well.

Scott Allen: And Brian, I went to the University of Minnesota, and so I was on our St. Paul campus where a lot of that programming was located. I know that Brian went to the University of Wisconsin. I believe Eric, one of your degrees is from Ohio State, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Bachelor's degree from Ohio State, and then graduate studies at University of Florida.

Scott Allen: Okay. I think in some of these [00:07:00] ag leadership programs, there's hundreds and hundreds of students in these minors or these majors. Am I correct, Eric? 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Yeah. Particularly Texas a and m has had a large program and they look different ways. Some are using the word leadership.

Texas a and m for a while was using the word development because there were some questions about, who owns this word leadership so you can get competitive that way. But certainly some large programs. And when I was at Ohio State, we didn't have a leadership program per se, but the department that I was in has since been doing more in community leadership development.

And when I went to graduate school, the University of Florida there was some new emerging work there. And it really wasn't until graduate school that I thought, oh, this is, could be a focused area of study. Beyond just someone who might be a motivational speaker at a conference like I knew that existed.

Yes. But the idea that we were going to take more concerted effort to develop leaders and leadership was something that was really exciting to me to think about that was a professional focus that I could have. 

Scott Allen: Okay. Wonderful. So now [00:08:00] Brian, let's talk a little bit about your origin story here, sir.

You came up. Through you're leading an incredible organization right now. You came up through some of this programming. Would you tell us a little bit about that and how that formed you in your own growth and development? 

Brian Zimmerman: And I think, starting from where I am now, this is about a $250 million company that employs over 800 full-time people.

Multi-discipline. I think we have 35 doctors on staff of. Of, of all different disciplines. And so that's where the current, but when you look at the foundation and I think of Ohio, 'cause I've spent almost 16 years here, 88 counties. There's a tremendous amount of rural counties in Ohio. And so when you look at the formative years of high school or FFA, future Farmers of America, which is what I knew it as had hard hands health in four H, you had an opportunity to be elected to a position.

So my very first position. And leadership was the treasurer. And so we did ice cream socials and we had to sell ice cream, scoop ice cream, lemonade and things. And we [00:09:00] raised money. And then we got to decide where we went to, where we wanted to spend the money. I remember, and I was the president at the time, and an individual, which I won't say her name, but she had indicated that she wanted to go to some, I don't know.

What I would call historical place, which really wasn't a theme that the kids wanted to do. And I said gee, that's great. But I think the kids really want to go to what I would call Wisconsin Dells, which is like a waterpark. Yeah. And at the time I didn't really necessarily realize it, but that was showing leadership in the face of adults trying to exert themselves.

And so when you get opportunities to, to have some levels of leadership and FFA was the same way. I was the sentinel first and then moved up into the president role in a vacuum because the June we, I was a junior as the president, which historically the president was the senior. The junior, the class above us really didn't have a lot of very good leaders in it.

I aged up and then we got another group to come in. So I got my state farmer degree as a sophomore, which I was only one of two in the entire state at the time to get that accomplished. Some people have that essence of leadership around them and they embrace it and they love it and they want, I call it [00:10:00] driving the bus.

They wanna be sitting in the front seat guiding but their strategy and who sits in the bus with you and how you build your teams and things around it, but you learn, we travel on a school bus from Bel, Wisconsin to Kansas City, Missouri, on a bus. So we slept under the seats. All things you probably can't do now, but you learn how to work with a team.

You learn how to use your voice. And these are some of the things that maybe aren't quite the same. And, there's no video, but you think of the phone the people are connected that way. We had to connect through actual, real conversation. And there's something to be said for the leadership dynamic of having that either personal conversation or understanding emotional intelligence in leadership.

Scott Allen: Eric 

Brian Zimmerman: all rooted in agriculture. That's, we grew, corn, soybeans, alfalfa, cows and those types of things. 

Scott Allen: That's awesome. So Eric, if you would talk a little bit about how you interfaced growing up with any of these organizations. Were you a member of FFA or four H as well?

Yes. I'm almost getting like a hint of almost like a cousin to scouting. Would that be accurate or no? 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Yeah, I think [00:11:00] there's a relationship. Certainly scouting has a strong history in youth development and giving youth opportunities to grow and develop and learn, and all of that is part of that.

Certainly four H has as well. Four H is a little bit older than FFAI was interested in being in four HI think I had an older brother was that was in it for a little while and my parents decided it wasn't worth driving him to the meeting. So they weren't real excited about me getting involved in four H.

The thing that seemed fun at the time is showing livestock at the county fair meant that they could get out of school because the county that I was in, the county fair was during the school year in September, and I thought, boy, if you could get off school and just hang out at the fair, that would be a fun thing to do.

But that, so I wasn't involved in four H. I I had an older brother that was involved in FFA. He thought that he wanted to be a farmer, and so that seemed like a path. I thought, I'm not really interested in being a farmer. I'm looking elsewhere, but my mom actually saw the opportunities for leadership development [00:12:00] through FFA and said, you really ought to try it out.

And so I tried it out, really enjoyed it. My high school agriscience teacher seemed to take an interest in me and my opportunity for development and the goals that I had. And so I was really excited about that. The thing that I think is really important too, that I appreciate about FFA, my understanding is within the United States is the largest student led organization, and so the idea that the students are making some of these decisions, like Brian talked about, like really moving into that space is different than maybe some of the other mentoring.

Relationships that we see in scouting or at times depending on age levels, four H and some of those other organizations where there's clearly some adult leaders who are in charge and they're guiding and directing the students. That happens in FFA. We have FFA advisors, but there were really was encouragement from the founding of FFA to say, we need to [00:13:00] give these youth, at the time, farm Boys, give them more confidence.

And I was just looking at some material today. Down the hall because the department that I'm in at Virginia Tech is the home, the founding of Future Farmers of Virginia, which became FFA. And the one of the very first state FFAO or State Future Farmers of Virginia officers ended up being the president of Virginia Tech years later.

Okay. And our basketball coliseum is named after that that individual president castle. And anyway, those things are really appreciated. I appreciated going to leadership development workshops and conferences. I enjoyed public speaking competitions. I know Brian mentioned earlier something about a soil judging competition.

I did that was another thing where at the time I think I was just walking in the hallway. I lived near school and so I was in the school after the school day was over and my ag teacher said, Hey, Eric, do you wanna get outta school tomorrow? I said, sure. What are we doing? He said, soil judging.

I said, I don't know anything about soil [00:14:00] judging. He said, I'll teach you on the way. So 

Scott Allen: there's bad soil and good soil, that's all. Yeah. 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: So there certainly is learning. Yeah. Yes. But part of it is taking advantage of opportunities. And then recognizing that each of us do have things to contribute leaning into those relationships.

I ended up being the state FFA president in Ohio and did that for a year, sort of a gap year between high school and college. Oh, nice. I really enjoyed that. That expanded my perspective because I traveled around the state, visited different schools, helped out with FFA camp during the summer.

Just lots of different opportunities and those experiences helped me to grow in my ability to engage in leadership and collaborate with others on shared approaches to leadership. 

Scott Allen: And, okay, so love this, Brian. Now, if I remember correctly, you're a member of Alpha Gamma Row A GR. Okay?

Yep. Good. And you got a degree in soil, right? So talk a little bit about we, we moved from. The undergrad or from high school to undergraduate experiences. So you get [00:15:00] to Wisconsin now. How does the theme continue here? 

Brian Zimmerman: First and foremost, e everything that Eric was talking about and, I think of ex.

Extemporaneous speaking, parliamentary procedure. There were a lot of things that you learned that you didn't really realize at the time that were going to be valuable later in life. And earlier in the podcast we started talking a little bit about the 88 counties and how rural Ohio is. A lot of our elected officials come out of those counties, and so if they have a background in leadership in some of these things, it actually helps on a higher level.

But yes, growing up we grew up in the shadows of Madison. My hometown was only about 15 minutes from campus, so we. As kids spent a lot of time up there, sometimes authorized and sometimes unauthorized time. On State Street. Yes, on State Street. Yeah. Halloween was a no-no for us, but we tended to end up there a number of times.

But, my parents were guardians of their kids. And my first semester I stayed at home and really didn't have the richest college kind of freshman start. I think they were nervous. I run fast very fast and I think they were just like, you were gonna get yourself [00:16:00] into trouble very quickly.

But I did rush a fraternity, a GR became an officer in the fraternity. Did get into trouble for a little bit of time, but then, that taught me, I had to figure out how to get myself out of it. And sometimes you do things, there's cause and effect and there was no way to others to help and I had to do that myself.

But the degree and soils. Really opened up the doors for a lot of other opportunities along the way to be educated at a land grant college. To be part of an ecosystem is I don't know if there was a better place for me at the time than that group and that fraternity, the 50 guys that lived in the house all still, I would say very close to a few of our battling cancer and other things, but the connectedness that you have to that group.

I was an anomaly. Most of 'em were dci dairy science major. So the cow guys, they have their kind of like ecosystem that they lived in. So there was only two soil guys, a couple engineers, ag engineers, the nerds as we called them. But we, we tended to we tried to bring up the average at least a little bit in, in brain power there.

Scott Allen: That's awesome. Eric, comment on [00:17:00] that. 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Yeah, no, it sounds like a great experience. Some similarities with with my experience at Ohio State, I was in what was alpha ta Zeta. There was an alpha zeta fraternity that started at Ohio State as an honorary, and over time that needed to shift.

And I was in a Alpha Zeta was the fraternity, which is now a farmhouse fraternity at Ohio State. Yep. And so had that agriculture connection there. Ended up serving as president of the fraternity. My major was agriculture education. So because of that experience in high school, I thought, boy, that'd be great if I can help others serve in that same role that my high school agriscience teacher had.

I think I was also president of the Agriculture Education Society and other groups. Groups got very involved there and really looked to some opportunities thinking about agriculture education, knowing that. What I appreciated most about my own experience was the leadership development, but it was in this context of agriculture.

And so I learned about some aspects of production agriculture beyond what I learned [00:18:00] from growing up in, in a farming community. And and used that to launch off into a professional career. To begin with teaching high school agriscience, I ended up going to Florida. I met a Florida girl at Ohio State and we decided we were gonna get married.

And so I applied to jobs in Ohio and Florida. And yes, Florida agriculture is very different from Ohio, even more different than I realized. But had the opportunity to teach high school agriscience there and Florida near Daytona Beach for three years before going on to graduate school. 

Scott Allen: Ah.

Sounds rough. 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Sounds 

Scott Allen: rough. 

Brian Zimmerman: You know what's also interesting? So at Madison, my father was at DTS Delta, theta Sigma. And at the time they probably weren't as growth minded. And so a GR was where I went and my son went to a state college state university in Columbus. And so he rushed DTS yeah, which I thought was interesting.

So it, there was, there must be a generational skipping thing, but. Our son very much enjoyed his time. He ended up getting a degree in supply chain logistics, [00:19:00] operational systems, but then he got a minor in horticulture. So our family runs a little small farm, little Sunflower farm in Carroll County Ohio.

Still deeply rooted in agriculture, which is pretty cool, like the third, fourth generation. 

Scott Allen: Okay, so let's zoom forward a little bit. Brian you mentioned Robert rule Robert's rules or parliamentary procedure, some extemporaneous speaking, I think, what are some of those things that you learned back in high school that has that that still inform your practice day to today leading this multimillion dollar organization?

Brian Zimmerman: I think there were some defining moments. Really along the way, having to, I would say build a coalition of high school, classmates at times that's, you have to learn how to build a coalition of support. So I think that was one of the things y you know and so I had a very good foundation, I think from leadership.

But certainly as Scott or Eric had mentioned got to spend time in Washington DC at some leadership things ended up inside of an ice machine. At one point in time, I was a sophomore of the [00:20:00]seniors. I must have been small enough that they thought I would really be really cute to put me inside of it.

But you also had to learn your place. There was times that you had to learn in leadership. Sometimes that's one of the things of having a level of emotional intelligence. But, the last job that I had was I was number two in charge of a 15,000 acre park system in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

And I use this often. Leadership development. Use your voice for good. I don't know what you're thinking if you don't tell me or articulate your position be succinct in that. And there are times when you have to use your voice and stand up. You don't have to be disrespectful. You just have to use your voice and detail what you're trying to get across.

And I can think of many examples where. I advocated for something and I, I can tell you there was one very defining moment where I got put into a corner. The chief of staff for Scott Walker was a general, and he was a general, and so you had to be very succinct in your conversation fairly quick.

And I tried to articulate my position as best I could, and I just got, I got crunched back pretty quickly and then I got yelled at by my current boss and then other people, and I was just like, wow. So then anytime I went [00:21:00] to something I was. Like the Boy Scouts would say, be prepared and in leadership you need to be prepared If you're asked something people always asked why I got more than others.

It's 'cause I had a list of five or six things and I had an elevator speech less than three minutes. 'cause if that's all I was gonna get with somebody, I need to be succinct as possible. And that mantra still lives with me today. It's if I can't get it done in three minutes, then it's probably something that.

Dictates or it gets to move on. So it's the level of detail, the level of conversation and having that direct conversation is extremely important. But the platform really was set with those, very early on agencies. 

Scott Allen: Eric, what I would love to hear from you right now is. Obviously you are embedded in the leadership and followership literature.

You know it like the back of your hand. So looking back to some of your experiences, what just from an experiential standpoint, sticks with you? It just aligns beautifully with the literature of what we should be doing. Can you anything come to mind for you? 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: [00:22:00] Certainly there's aspects of path goal, leadership theory that really come to mind.

And I've held onto that a lot, be part of what I was taught in my early FFA experiences was about goal setting and being clear on what the goal is. Brian, you talked about that having some clarity being, focused on those things and I think that can be really useful. And then what's the leader's job in that goal Setting theory is removing the obstacles and providing support.

And that's what my high school agriscience teacher did. And provided opportunities for me to grow and to be successful in areas that without him taking an interest in what my goals were and helping me along the way, that wouldn't have been possible. And that path goal theory, I think is really useful.

The other things that, that stand out to me, I've been in recent years more focused on leadership as practice that really looks at. The behaviors and the things that create leadership that are not as much about an individual leader, but [00:23:00] instead this space between. And I think that becomes really important in our.

Agriculture context. Brian, you talked about, your involvement in these different parks, and I think what is a difference in that setting versus someone who is leading a factory that's, producing a widget, a very particular thing. Your parks have lots of different issues. I'm sure there are systems and systems of systems that you've gotta be paying attention to, and you start to realize you can't cover all of that.

You don't know all of that. You don't have that insight on your own, and it was really a little bit in college for me that I had this recognition that being a really good leader myself. Wasn't going to be enough. I found myself over committed, involved with lots of different organizations at the time, and I realized I've gotta rely on other people to be really good at what they're doing and let them do their thing.

And if I try to force that we're not gonna be able to accomplish the goals that we've set. We're [00:24:00]really going to make some mistakes along the way. I had to show up to some meetings knowing I wasn't as prepared as I would like to be. But if I'm surrounding myself with the right people, and I'm empowering them to be successful, that we can accomplish great things together.

Scott Allen: I'm so thankful for this conversation. I think I don't know that a large, that the public understands that, that this space exists. That this space has existed for decades and decades, has been a precursor to much of even maybe the Center for Creative Leadership or some of the public leadership programs like a leadership Cleveland for us here in, in Cleveland, Brian.

Or leadership Columbus or any of those types of organizations. You all have been doing that work. FFA and four H has been doing that work for decades. Some of the collegiate level organizations extension, we could start going into that conversation. But I think and what I really appreciate about this is that the experiential nature of it, in and in, in [00:25:00] some ways the competitive nature of it as well, in the sense that, why do people practice?

To compete or to perform. And so this created that space to give us a reason why, to engage in some of the work, build coalitions, influence others, build relationships. Know your spot when it was your time to know your spot, as Brian said, and have a goal and make a difference in your community.

Eric? 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Yeah, I think you bringing up the competitive nature is an interesting component. And we think about different sports, the competitive nature. Probably at times plays out on a certain level you may be competing with others, but on a different level you're competing with yourself. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: And so then in that mindset, then there's also an opportunity for people to collaborate and share with one another and support one another along the way.

And so I think we see that happening. If you think just in terms of farmers there's an aspect of pride that they wanna have the best. Crop or livestock or whatever, and they want to do that. [00:26:00] They also are very willing to support one another when they know that somebody else is in need.

And we see that in some of these programs as well. When I was at graduate school at the University of Florida, I had the opportunity to help coordinate what is the wedgworth Leadership Institute for Agriculture Natural Resources. So we're combining the agriculture community with natural resources and recognizing a lot of these environmental issues and bringing people together.

And it was very much an experiential program, giving people the opportunity for traveling, seminars, learning with one another along the way. It is a two year program. We've created something similar here in Virginia, the Virginia Agriculture Leaders Obtaining Results Program. There's similar programs like this around the country, but the experiences of bringing people together.

Give an opportunity not only to see where you know each participant, where they are in this larger system, in this process, and figure out how they can improve and contribute, but then also engage in the problem solving. My experience is when somebody completes that [00:27:00] program, they appreciate that network that's built because when they run into an issue.

They're no longer having to solve it just on their own, but now they have a network of people that they can call and say, Hey, this is what I'm struggling with. What ideas do you have? Or how can you help with that? And there's an opportunity for people to take some of these issues that they see in their broader society and realize, look, that's not something I can tackle on my own.

But collectively, we can address some of these larger issues and needs and challenges. And I think that's where a lot of these agricultural leadership programs focus, especially when we get it to, into the adult level, is figuring out how do we collaborate together. 

Scott Allen: I'm seeing like a, whether it's youth or through adulthood, we have life stages and states.

Covered. Brian, what do you got sir? It, 

Brian Zimmerman: It's interesting just and I know we're coming up on the end, it's about mentorship. Eric, me mentioned that early on, having good mentors and, so if you're listening to this and you're at a younger. Find a good mentor that you can bounce ideas off and learn in in a one-on-one [00:28:00]setting.

And he also talked about empowerment. Empower yourself to be a leader because at the end of the day you have the right to step up. And I think that's one of the things. And also, empowering your staff. That's one of the things you learn in leadership. You cannot control every outcome and you cannot control you.

You'd like to know where the work product is gonna get to, but you have to empower your people to get there. And I think the last thing is really that, that lifelong learning. We never stop learning. And when we look at, we're in our middle ages. But you still are learning.

And I think of, we invested in a farmer's cooperative in Carrollton, Carrollton, Ohio, and they have a board. And if you wanna be on a board of a cooperative, you've gotta go through a training and some leadership. So I think there's just, there's always this want to and this hunger to learn and continue to learn and how do evolve.

And leadership is about that. Understanding where you're at and where do you want to get to. 

Scott Allen: Love it. Eric? 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Yeah I'll just round out on the learning piece because the cooperative extension, which is part of land grant universities, I think that's where that comes in. Scott mentioned that the Association of Leadership Educators was founded by cooperative Extension Professionals.

And honestly, a number [00:29:00] of those that founded that were not. Agriculture focused professionals. They were focused on the home economics side, but they were in a college of agriculture and life sciences because of that extension piece. But was, they were really focused on how do you meet people where they are, what's the thing they need to learn next?

And they were doing some community leadership programming and they said, how do we share ideas? And they came together for some workshops and said, let's start an association and learn from one another. Even before leadership education programs were available as a major or even a course like at Ohio State.

There was one class that was created that I could get into that was leadership focused. We didn't have necessarily leadership focused classes. You learned in a variety of experiences. I teach leadership focused classes now, but it's not something that you have to get into a book and study the terms to, to these theories.

But you can actually experience it and you can learn a lot that way. And I really appreciate that part of my appointment at Virginia Tech is with Virginia [00:30:00] Cooperative Extension and helping to facilitate lifelong learning. I even think about people that are finishing up a career and they've got a lot of life left and they're figuring out how do I contribute?

In my community and the way that they need to lead in that community setting may look different than how they needed to lead in that business setting. Especially whether it's, shifting from a for-profit to a nonprofit or having employees that had some sense of obligation in a transaction.

All of a sudden you've gotta figure out, okay, how do I motivate people to come together for a community? Project and effort and I think there's a lot of things that we can continue to dig into that to learn. There's lots to continue to uncover it. It's an exciting place to learn and research.

I really enjoy it. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. To the two of you. I am very thankful. I think probably what I'm about to hear there, there may be some level of repetition. There may not be, but I always end up the podcast by asking what is the practical wisdom in this [00:31:00] conversation. So Eric, I'm gonna go to you. What do you think is the practical wisdom in the conversation we've just had?

What stands out for you? 

Dr. Eric Kaufman: I think a key part is whether you're in agriculture or other spaces, if you really wanna address these challenges that are broad system level challenges, we need to stop thinking about leadership as something that individuals do and start seeing it as something that you.

Communities build together over time. And I think you can do that a lot of different ways, but I think if you're learning in a community, I think if you're growing in a community and you're sharing leadership in that community, I think we can address a lot of the issues that we're facing in this world.

Scott Allen: Awesome. Brian, sir? Practical Wisdom. 

Brian Zimmerman: I'm 

Scott Allen: gonna answer it this way real quick. 'Cause we just talked over each other. Brian, practical wisdom, what do you think, sir? 

Brian Zimmerman: I'm gonna answer it this way. Common sense isn't always that common. And so when you think of how to solve solutions together, sometimes it's laying out what you know and what you don't [00:32:00] know, and then how do you work together.

When we look at the divide across this great nation whether you're on one side over the other. There's gotta be a handshake, there's gotta be a cross between differing opinions and leading through to lead. And at the end of the day, those are the things that, that we look for.

And I call it GSD. And this is a podcast, so I won't use the middle initial, but it's getting things done. And the reality is whether you're elected or whether you're in a leadership role, the practical part is you are. Empowered to do something, get something done. And so for us, we call it moving the ball.

How do we move the ball down the court? How do we move it down the field? And that's in the practical side of things every single day. Why we're probably the, I mean we've won the National Gold Medal five times, which is best managed Park district, is because we believe in what we do every day. We set goals, objectives, and then we deliver on them.

And that's the what this community needs across this great country. 

Scott Allen: Ah. Gentlemen, thank you so much. I really appreciate you. For those of you who are listening, there are some links in the show notes. I want you [00:33:00] to check 'em out if you'd like to learn a little bit more. And you know what? I really am thankful for your time today, gentlemen.

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Thank you. 

Scott Allen: Be well.

Dr. Eric Kaufman: Thank you.