The Versatile Leader with Rob Kaiser

Rob Kaiser is a road-worn veteran of executive selection and development in the C-suite and the author of five books, including The Versatile Leader and Fear Your Strengths (both with Bob Kaplan), along with Executive Selection, Filling the Leadership Pipeline, and The Perils of Accentuating the Positive. His work has also appeared in hundreds of peer-reviewed articles in behavioral science and business press, as well as in professional presentations. In the late 1990s, Rob's research identified versatility, the capacity to balance seemingly opposing leadership behaviors such as forceful and enabling, or strategic and operational, as the single most important capability for leading in a fast-paced world of disruptive change. That insight was ahead of its time and still shapes how he thinks about leadership today.

Based on that research, Rob created a suite of tools that place versatility at the core of leadership assessment and development, including the patented Leadership Versatility Index 360, the Integrated Personality Summary, and the Progress Report. He and his firm, Kaiser Leadership Solutions, put these ideas into practice every day, helping companies assess, identify, select, and develop executives who build strong teams and great cultures that deliver outstanding business results.

A Few Quotes From This Episode

• “A strength can become a weakness through overuse."
• "There's only one person in the world you can't see."
• (Temple of Apollo) - "Know thyself. Nothing in excess. Surety brings ruin."

Resources

• The Versatile Leader: Make the Most of Your Strengths Without Overdoing It 
• Fear Your Strengths: What You Are Best At Could Be Your Biggest Problem 
• Kaiser Leadership Solutions
• Leadership Versatility Index (LVI) 360 

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Attend The Global Conference in Toronto, October 28-31.

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

♻️ Please share with others and follow/subscribe to the podcast!
⭐️ Please leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or your platform of choice.
➡️ Follow me on LinkedIn for more on leadership, communication, and tech.
📜 Subscribe to my weekly newsletter featuring four hand-picked articles.
🌎 You can learn more about my work on my Website.

Transcript

Scott Allen: [00:00:00] Thanks for checking in from wherever you are in the world. Welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders, the official podcast of the International Leadership Association. I'm your host, Scott J. Allen, and each week I invite executives and scholars to explore the real work of leadership. This podcast is part of a global community committed to helping leaders thrive.

If you find these conversations valuable, connect with me on LinkedIn, subscribe to the podcast, and share this episode with others. To learn more about me, visit www.scottjallen.net. 

Scott Allen: And now, here's today's episode. 

Scott Allen: Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for checking in wherever you are in the world.

This is Scott Allen, your host, and this is the official podcast of the International Leadership Association. So we hope to see you in Toronto this fall. If you are not familiar with International Leadership Association or the global conference, ILA, look it up. It's awesome. [00:01:00] It's been my academic home for years.

Now, today I have a, a legend, and so I, I'm so excited for this conversation, Rob. Uh, this is Rob Kaiser, everybody. He is an author. He has written, uh, several books. This is one of my favorites. And you know, I, I can't believe, I've been doing this for three and a half... No, actually five and a half years now, and, and I, I am just so excited that we're having this conversation.

And so I know you're an avid baseball player. I was actually... A- and, and fan. Used to play. Maybe you're not. Maybe you play now, I don't know. But I was in a field last night. It was the district finals. My son was involved in three of the five big plays that won the game, so it was just this wonderful evening of baseball.

Perfect weather out. And so I know based on some of our previous conversations, that sports are important to you, sir. 

Rob Kaiser: Absolutely, they're, uh, near and dear to my heart, and hey, congratulations to your son, and I imagine you're [00:02:00] still riding on that high. 

Scott Allen: Yes, yes. For sure. Uh, well- The 

Rob Kaiser: American pastime. 

Rob Kaiser: Exactly, and I know that kind of, uh, you know, when we talk about, like, what got you into leadership, uh, let's talk a little bit about that, because I, I, I have a s- feeling maybe sports were involved.

Rob Kaiser: Well, they absolutely were, you know, but I, I gotta back up a little bit. Yeah. Um, you know, what's it, Kierkegaard's got that great quote, um, "Life can only be understood in retrospect but has to be lived forward." 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

Rob Kaiser: My intro to leadership really followed that, Scott. Mm-hmm. I was, uh, 10, 11, 12 years old. I was really fortunate.

I got to play on a couple of sports teams, uh, uh, football, Pop Warner, and a travel baseball team, the Del Unser League, before they had Little League everywhere. This is in central Illinois, and man, both of those teams were coached by two incredible men. 

Scott Allen: Hmm. 

Rob Kaiser: I'm a young kid. I don't know anything. What I did [00:03:00] know was Coach Mayberry darn near killed us in preseason two-a-day workouts at 10 years old.

I remember he was always walking around, "Boys, if you feel like you're about to die, you're halfway there." He- 

Scott Allen: Sounds like he had Heard Brooks. 

Rob Kaiser: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, we were young. We didn't know what we were doing. But here was the thing Coach Mayberry really did, was he taught us to play as a team.

Scott Allen: Hmm. 

Rob Kaiser: And it wasn't just him. He had a coaching staff of guys he worked with at a local factory. This wasn't daddy ball. They didn't have kids. They were passionate about young boys becoming men in the game of football. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And I remember the night before our first game, he gets us all down there at the end of practice, you know, we're all on, taking, uh, get a water, and he's down on his knee, too, kind of scanning, looking at all of our eyes.

And he's got this raspy voice, you know, blah, and he says, "Boys, I don't know much, but I do know one thing." [00:04:00] "A team apart is easier to rip apart than a team together." And we're all like, "Yeah, yeah." Then he says, "You might not be the most talented, you might not win, but I will guarantee at the end of four quarters they will know they've been hit by the Mount Zion Braves."

Rob Kaiser: You're fired up. You're fired up. 

Rob Kaiser: Just thinking about Coach Mayberry gets, I mean, the hairs are literally standing up the back of my neck. I didn't know what I was watching, Scott. I just knew what I felt. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: I just, and, and I mean, we had really good success. I think we lost one game in three seasons. 

Rob Kaiser: Wow.

Rob Kaiser: And I'm still in touch with a lot of those guys, but let me make the contrast for you. Here's the connection. I get to high school. Same group of guys. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Mediocre team. Coach not nearly as committed to the team. A lot of politics. Superintendent's kid gets to [00:05:00] start even though he's, should be third on the depth chart, you know, that kind of thing.

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Rob Kaiser: And I, I checked out of sports by my junior year. I got into rock and roll bands instead. I thought, "I've had enough of this." 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: But it was in college, in an organizational psychology class, section on leadership, it all snapped into focus. 

Rob Kaiser: Hmm. 

Rob Kaiser: That was the difference. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and the difference that that one individual makes, I mean, it's just whether that's in the classroom, whether that's on the ball field, whether that's as your manager, direct supervisor.

I mean, my first job, I was a janitor. Like, literally every night for four years in high school, I, I went to school, went to practice. After practice, I was a diver, so after practice, still smelling like chlorine, I drove to Marsden Building Maintenance and I cleaned bathrooms. And at the, kind of, when I tell you that, that doesn't sound very fun, but it's probably one of the best jobs I ever [00:06:00] had.

I had a supervisor in Mike, and Mike was this big guy, basically sat down next to the dumpster all night long. But Mike cared about us. Mike helped us understand why what we were doing was important. He would praise us when we did do a great job and when we got, like, kudos from some of the different offices, uh, in the building.

We actually took pride. He would say things like, "Yeah, my boss is coming, but I'm not worried because you all have this place looking perfect," right? And so it's this weird thing where I'm cleaning 12 bathrooms in a night, right? That's at least part of the night, for four hours. But we had this pride in the, either the pattern in the vacuuming on the carpet.

He would come down and he would say- Great job ... "Great patterns up there in, you know, IBM," you know? And so- Right ... and so, but that could've been a horrible job. And then I was working with some other guys, and we became friends, and, and some of my friends came and worked there. That made it even more fun and enjoyable.

I'd listen to music. You're, you're talking about rock and roll. I'd put in Neil [00:07:00] Young's Harvest Moon, and I'd just kind of start vacuuming and emptying trash, you know? But he was an incredible guy, made all the difference in the world. All the difference in the world. 

Rob Kaiser: What, what I hear in that, though, is you, you didn't work with fear.

Yeah. The standard was the standard. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: The pattern in the carpet, the really clean bathrooms. My boss is coming, I'm not wor- The standard was the standard. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: You had the support and the belief in your ability to meet or exceed the standard. 

Rob Kaiser: Exactly. 

Rob Kaiser: Those things. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so, uh, you know, you have this kind of aha, this epiphany, and so let's talk a little bit about your point of view on leadership.

What are some, some of the highlights and hallmarks of how you think about this topic? 

Rob Kaiser: Well, well, first thing- Leadership is hard, 

Rob Kaiser: full stop. Yes. Yes. It's like par- it's like parenting. It's hard. It's just difficult. You 

Rob Kaiser: have- Leadership is the second most lonely job 

Rob Kaiser: at work. It's a mirror. If y- and if you're brave enough to look into it, [00:08:00] there's a lot of learning for you.

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. Well, and, and you hit on something right there. If you're not a learner, you're not gonna go far on a leadership track, that's for sure. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Because it's so darn demanding. I mean, look, the buck stops here. The job is really, really complex. You gotta deal with business problems, you gotta deal with people problems.

A- and there are two sets of problems, you know? Our brains are two... There's two sides to our brain. We've got a analytical, task-related part of our brain, the prefrontal. We've got an emotional, relational part of the brain, the older limbic system. And these things are sometimes in conflict and all that, but the point is business is fundamentally about money and people.

Scott Allen: Mm. 

Rob Kaiser: Analytically solving the money, organizational problems, dealing with the people problems, that right there is a huge, huge challenge to toggle back and forth. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. Yeah. Not easy. [00:09:00] Not easy at all. No. Not for the faint of heart. 

Rob Kaiser: Well, and, and genetics, I mean, I don't wanna get too much into brain sciences, but the genetics show us that we come out of the chute disposed more toward one side or the other generally.

So, you know, back to your learning point, Scott, I think one of the big challenge to become a great, well-rounded, versatile leader is the self-awareness that comes of knowing what comes naturally to me. Okay, I'm really analytical and good with the numbers, problem solving. You know what? I gotta have to lean into the people side and raise my game over here if I'm gonna become an effective leader.

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And that's hard work. 

Rob Kaiser: It's not easy. And that, that tension, you know, people, task people, results, uh, relationships, however we wanna kind of talk about that, yeah, I, I agree 100%. I think most people have, you know, they jump in and they get right to the task, or maybe they're a little more skilled at the relational [00:10:00] side, but maybe they struggle a little bit with difficult conversations, conflict, a lack of harmony sometimes that's kind of baked into the role, and setting deadlines, hard, hard, hard numbers that we need to meet.

I- it's fascinating what it requires of an individual. 

Rob Kaiser: That's exactly it. So first thing I would say on my point of view of leadership is it's really dang hard, largely because you've got to strike these various balances. Yeah. Of course, you just named the big one that the leadership scholars have always talked about.

Yep. Task people, what have you. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Rob Kaiser: But we can throw in a number of dichotomies or dualities that feel paradoxical. Short-term results, long-term value creation, innovation, stability to get traction. I mean, there's any number of these things. And I always go back to that Daoist symbol, you know, the yin-yang.

Rob Kaiser: Yeah, yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And the reminder that it's not either/or, it takes both/and in a harmonic kind of dynamic balance. 

Rob Kaiser: Yes, [00:11:00] yes. Well, and this gets into your perspec- perspectives around versatility, right? I mean- 

Rob Kaiser: Exactly. That, that's where it all came from. I mean, look, so I, I go back, you know, 30-odd years when I was at the Center for Creative Leadership, and I'm getting exposed to all this stuff fresh out of graduate school.

Yeah, 

Rob Kaiser: yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: I'm like a kid in a candy store. You know, this is like Mecca for leadership. 

Rob Kaiser: Well, you know, you were with some th- you were with some pretty incredible thinkers, right? I mean, that, the water in that space at that time, not that it's not there now, but that, that, there's some, there's some legends, right?

Rob Kaiser: It was a special time to- Mm-hmm ... to play cards with Mike Lombardo. To have lunch with Morgan McCall. Yes. To have Randy White take me out for a drink. I mean, all, all of these, you know, luminaries, and I was a kid, you know? Yeah. I, fresh and bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. But here's what, here's where it came together in my head, Scott.

First off, um, Morgan and Mike's [00:12:00] seminal studies on derailment. Of course, they were done 10 years before I got there. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Rob Kaiser: But one of the key insights was, that which was fresh thinking at the time, was a strength can become a weakness through overuse. 

Rob Kaiser: Yep. 

Rob Kaiser: Right? The same things that got these people to the top took them over the edge in excess.

And then I'm looking at all these assessments. I was an assessment nerd. I guess you could say I was born with the analytical brain, a little bit bigger than the relational. I loved assessment, psychological measurement. And I'm reviewing all these tools we use for giving feedback, self-awareness, all that stuff, and nowhere in 360s at the time did I see any space for strengths overused.

Scott Allen: Mm. You 

Rob Kaiser: know, we had all these five-point scales, as if more was better, but yet we got this great insight that too much of a good thing isn't so good. Well, gosh, shouldn't we reflect that properly as helping executives learn, [00:13:00] grow, and develop? 

Scott Allen: Yes. Yes. 

Rob Kaiser: So the first thing I did, you know, I should say we did, as, as we kind of put this point of view together, was recognize, create a place and assessment for too much of a good thing.

So instead of the five-point scale, we rethought it as the Goldilocks scale. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Rob Kaiser: Too little, just right, too much. And give those coworkers a way to let leaders know when they've crossed that line. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: But here's the other thing that happened. I was also... Uh, I studied philosophy in college as well, and psychology, and statistics.

And from Hegel all the way back to the Daoists and all of that stuff, I, I was always taken by this interplay of opposing forces. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And you look at the leadership literature. Going back 100-plus years, people who've studied what leaders do have always [00:14:00] formulated it in contrasting pairs. 

Scott Allen: Hmm. 

Rob Kaiser: Right? 

Scott Allen: Yeah, yeah.

Rob Kaiser: Transformational, transactional, task, people, innovation, stability. So it's like we've got this too much scale. It's like, oh, okay, well, let's define the behavior model to apply that to in a yin yang sort of fashion. We came up with the terms forceful enabling for the interpersonal part, strategic and operational for the organizational part.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And when you measure behaviors in those pairs of categories on the too much, too little, what we started to see in the data was what you would expect, that seesaw, too much of one, too little of the other. And very few leaders who struck a balance on how they lead, what they lead, strategic and tactical.

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. What have you learned about their own perspective on their balance over the years? Is it often skewed based on what others thought? 

Rob Kaiser: Great [00:15:00] question. You know, one of the things I have become really sensitized to and compassionate about is just how hard self-awareness is to achieve. 

Rob Kaiser: Yes. 

Rob Kaiser: Now listen, when I was younger- Again, the 

Rob Kaiser: mirror, the mirror, if you're willing to look in it.

Rob Kaiser: Exactly. But, you know, so I'm, I'm young, I'm modeling all the data, and you've got... You know, you look at the self-ratings, you look at the coworker ratings. Coworkers put the skews. Self-ratings barely track with coworker ratings. That's a robust finding. And, you know, it's easy. Oh, look at all these clueless managers who aren't self-aware, ha ha ha.

Well, then I got my 360.

Rob Kaiser: Oops. Yep. Yep. There's, there's, there... It's the mirror. Oh- ... I can be perceived this way. I didn't know, right? It's like my wife, uh, about a couple weeks ago, you [00:16:00] know, I, I travel quite a bit. And so- Yeah ... I had gotten home. It was probably around, like, 6:30 PM, so everyone's at the dinner table, and I kind of enter the space.

And I just start cleaning things up, and I start asking questions. And so the next morning on, on our walk, my wife looks at me and she says, "Can I give you some feedback?" And I said, "Sure." And, uh, she's like, "Don't... You know, just take this in. Don't respond. But, uh, you can come in a little hot sometimes. And just, you know, when you're coming home, slow your roll, slow down, just kind of integrate.

Like, a- just check in. Don't start cleaning everything." And I, I had no clue that's how I was showing up. I mean, uh, I live and breathe this stuff, right? But, uh, uh, again, like, are you- Yeah ... known as someone who's at least open to feedback, who's willing to hear other perspectives? But it's hard. It's not easy to do, right?

Rob Kaiser: It's not. Well, first off, I want to say it sounds like your wife could be a great coach.

Rob Kaiser: She's... She is. She is. She, she often says- Probably 

Rob Kaiser: [00:17:00] deserves, uh, an, an award of some sort, too. 

Rob Kaiser: I, I think her phrase- You know- ... is, "I made you into the man you are." So that's- ... that's the phrase. And 

Rob Kaiser: I agree. In my house, Molly says, Molly says, in our house, Molly says she domesticated me.

Rob Kaiser: Exactly. 

Rob Kaiser: There's a lot of truth to that. But I want to bring it back around on the reality of self-awareness- Yeah It's biological. 

Rob Kaiser: Hmm. Say more. 

Rob Kaiser: There's only one person in the world you can't see. 

Rob Kaiser: Hmm. 

Rob Kaiser: I mean, it starts there, and then add the psychological parts and, you know, we are the center of our kind of meaning making universe, the story we tell ourself, and then it's- that's hardwired as part of survival.

You gotta have all of that. But again, the learning challenge for a great leader is to transcend that sort of egocentric worldview, embrace a broader perspective, and [00:18:00] learn how to see the world through the eyes of others- Hmm ... including yourself. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. Yep. Hmm. Okay. So let's say someone wants to become better.

They wanna be a great leader. They wanna be more self-aware. Uh, what are some things you think about there? How, how do you think about that puzzle? Because that, for me, is just... I, I, I often say my mission is how do we better prepare people to serve in these really challenging roles? Because- 

Scott Allen: Yeah ...

Rob Kaiser: we, again, back to what you said originally, we know what it feels like to be in the presence of someone who's doing this work well, and we know what it feels like to be in the presence of someone who struggles.

They, they do lean- Yeah ... too far to task. They aren't self-aware in how they're showing up. That's a hard place to be, and I... And, and ultimately it costs organizations, uh, well, Gallup would say billions and trillions around the world, right? When you have people in positions of authority who maybe aren't doing that well.

So how do you think about that? I'm [00:19:00] super curious. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. It, it's a great question, and one I have thought about for a long time. Um, I, I don't claim to have all the answers. I have a way of thinking about it that seems useful. 

Rob Kaiser: Nice. 

Rob Kaiser: And you touched on it. I mean, look, at the temple of Apollo, 3,000 years ago, one of the three maxims etched in the top was, "Know thyself."

Right? So I think it starts with self-awareness in many ways. You've got to somehow find a way to get that mirror. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yep. 

Rob Kaiser: Is it a formal 360 feedback? Is it a spouse or a trusted colleague or a boss who cares about you, who will level with you? 

Rob Kaiser: Yep. Yep.

Rob Kaiser: The good and the bad. I'm not saying just the negative stuff.

I mean, p- people have just a hard time seeing their strengths as they do their weaknesses. 

Rob Kaiser: Yes. 100%, right? Oh, oh, you think I'm... You know, yes, 100%. Yep. 

Rob Kaiser: So I like to say it starts with self-awareness, which [00:20:00] practically speaking, is really about understanding how your operating system runs, so you can come up with hacks and cheat codes to build that operating system out to handle the whole panoply of stuff you gotta do as a leader.

Rob Kaiser: Great word, right? That, that was, that was a good use of that word. I love it. Well, and, and I love the introduction here of the hacks, and so I, I'll give you one example. So, uh, going back to my wife, she is- her mind i- thinks of others in a beautiful way. I mean, her- she's been conditioned for years. Her mom thinks of others, and she just grew up...

And, and it's beautiful because my, my daughters will come home and they'll start making cookies or something, and they'll say, uh, you know, "I need to make cookies tonight." We'll say, "Oh, what's going on?" They'll say, "Oh, well, you know, Franny had a rough day, so I wanna cheer her up tomorrow." And it's like, oh my gosh, okay, that is awesome.

For me, I, I don't have that neural path just as a [00:21:00] way of being yet. So literally, a hack, and it, it might sound, uh, lame to some listeners, but it- it's helpful. Uh, two tasks. The second task I do every day, one act of kindness, one act of gratitude. It causes me to pause, slow down, look at who has gone above and beyond for me, thank a client, thank someone who kind of did something nice for me along the way, and, you know, that's 14 a week.

Yeah. And that's hundreds over a year. And so, uh, I need that hack. It's a daily... It just pops up on my task list every day, and I need that reminder because that's the- Yep ... kind of person I wanna be, but I'm not there yet. Kind of like running. So you get- I'm not there yet. I have a growth mindset. 

Rob Kaiser: No, no, no. I, I don't think we ever get there.

The key is that we keep going. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah, 

Rob Kaiser: yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Honest. But, but I love that. I mean, you just had a simple lo-fi... Well, digitally. It, it's a digital string around your finger- 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah ... 

Rob Kaiser: to [00:22:00] remind you to do something that's not going to come naturally. 

Rob Kaiser: Exactly. Exactly. 

Rob Kaiser: One of the things I coach execs who, once they get clarity, in their own words, their own way of relating to how that operating system works, I say, "Great.

Let's work on the power of the pause now." 

Scott Allen: Mm. 

Rob Kaiser: When you're ready to go this direction, just a quick micro pause. What's the thing I'm not thinking about? 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And sometimes that means, oh, I need to switch gears. I need to bring people along before I charge on. Other times it's, yeah, I could do that, but I'm not going to for this reason.

And I t- I coach them. I say, "Executive judgment and discernment is key here." 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: I'm not telling you always have to go the other way. I'm just telling you to consider it. 

Rob Kaiser: Pause. Yeah, yeah. Are, is your mind even going there? And that's- Awesome. If their mind does, right? 

Rob Kaiser: Well, I, I, I'm gonna go back to t- the Temple of Apollo.

One of the other [00:23:00] maxims was, "Surety brings ruin." 

Rob Kaiser: Oh, wow, I didn't know that. 

Rob Kaiser: Huh. But, uh, there, there were three of them. We, my, my wife and I, uh, just went to Greece- Ah ... last year. I, I really wanted to go to Delphi and see this story. Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: I, I, no, I've, I've been to Delphi, but w- I didn't, I didn't get this, so this is awesome.

Rob Kaiser: Well, well, the, the, the facade's no longer there. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah, yeah. It's just- Okay. This was in the museum. Here's how it used to look. Tour

Rob Kaiser: guide book. 

Rob Kaiser: Quick, quick story, quick story. We're in Greece, and we're at the Briti- we're at the, uh, we're at the Museum of the Acropolis, and we had a g- we had an archeologist give us a tour for the day, and it was the most brilliant, wonderful, awesome day.

And we're kind of walking through the Museum of the Acropolis, and he's just frustrated with the British Museum. He's like, "Well, that's in the British Museum. That piece is in the British Museum." And he's just, he's, he's frustrated. So two summers ago, we got to the British Museum. We were like, "Well, shit.

They, they do have a lot of stuff here." "It's all [00:24:00] here." So, but that's awesome. Okay, so the surety brings ruin. Is that what, is that what it was? Oh, that's 

Rob Kaiser: awesome. That's exactly what it was. Yep, love it. And, and, and I'll, I'll connect it to where we're at here, that, that cock sure this is what I'm gonna do, that's what's gonna get you in trouble because not every time you pause and look at the other side are you necessarily gonna churn.

But sometimes you are. Mm-hmm. And if you never look, well, that becomes your blind side, and that's when you get into trouble. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. Yeah. And even a leader- So there's times- ... a leader who can say, "What's the downside of us moving in this direction?" You know, at least creating a little bit of space for people in the room to have the psychological safety to say, "Well, you know, this could happen."

But, um, yeah, if you don't, if you don't have that pause or have that gear to shift into, that quote on the temple is brilliant. It really is. 

Rob Kaiser: Well, just to bring it out since you're so interested in it, the three [00:25:00] quotes that, uh, I'm told- 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah ... 

Rob Kaiser: Were there. Right. It was know thyself. Nothing in excess. Surety brings ruin.

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Can you see how all of that stuff is baked into the versatility framework and assessment? 

Rob Kaiser: Oh my gosh. Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And I didn't even know that. I mean, I was exposed to the ancient Greek philosophy in college and all that, but that wasn't my driving thought, "Oh, I gotta represent this and transpose it to leadership."

It was, I think, stumbling into other great thinkers, other great works on leadership, and kind of rearranging the pieces in a new point of view. I just tapped into the main line of ancient wisdom. Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, so I'm, I'm taking us a little bit off track right now, but it's just a fun conversation.

I just finished a book called Dopamine Nation. Have you heard of this book? 

Rob Kaiser: I have heard of it. I've not read in or it. 

Rob Kaiser: So good. So good. [00:26:00] And, I mean, if you think about kind of us as a country right now, we... You know, billions of dollars are being spent on marketing gambling towards us, or direct to consumer, uh, medications, or you have the pornography industry, or the social media industry, or streaming industry.

And so it... The food industry. And, and so it's really, really fascinating. The news, right? We know that if we keep people agitated, frustrated, scared, worried, anxious, they're gonna come back. And so, you know, it's, it's... So it was a really interesting kind of look on the environment and kind of the waters we're swimming in.

And in some ways, some of those excesses of those industries and the power some of those industries have, uh, especially when we know that, you know, uh, some of those things don't lead to good things, whether it's alcohol or cannabis or whatever it is. So we as humans are kind of like swimming through [00:27:00] these multi-billion dollar ad campaigns directly geared towards us, and you gotta curate that.

You gotta be careful. You gotta be aware. But that, that whole notion of excess and that whole notion of, like, being out of balance, I think at some s- in some ways we've let things get a little bit out of balance of what's probably healthy for us, whether you look at the food system in Europe versus the United States.

I mean, there's just... It's, it's a, it's a fascinating read for listeners. And Rob, I hope you check it out. It's very, very good. 

Rob Kaiser: I wrote it down. I will check into that. Yeah. It's something I'm really curious about. You know, but it wasn't... What was it last year they had, um, the heads of, uh, these businesses that do social media apps all together- Oh, yeah

got called into Washington. And do you remember, to a person they all said they will not let their kids use social media? 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's addictive, and billions of dollars are being spent. I, I think I, I was [00:28:00] listening to a book this morning, and in that the author- quotes Reed Hastings from Netflix, and Reed said something to the effect of, in 2017, "One of our greatest competitors is sleep."

So we're trying to keep you from sleeping. 

Rob Kaiser: Social media is the big tobacco of this generation, Scott. 

Rob Kaiser: Oh, 100%. 100%. Yeah. And, and so- All right. 

Rob Kaiser: So we're, we're 

Rob Kaiser: way over here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Developing leaders. How, what else do we need to have- Developing- ... on the radar? 

Rob Kaiser: Self-awareness. How does your operating system work?

What are the hacks? What are the cheat codes? 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: One. Uh, two, the, one of my best coaching techniques is so simple. 

Scott Allen: Hmm. 

Rob Kaiser: Identify someone who's really good at what you wanna get better at. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Use them as a positive role model. Yeah. Observe them in action. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Approach them and ask them if you can take them to lunch, [00:29:00] buy them a coffee, pick their brain.

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Learn from, learn from the people around you. 

Rob Kaiser: Yep. Yep. Who are those thinking partners? Who's mastered it themselves? Who models that beautifully? Are you surrounding yourself with those individuals? Seek, excuse me, seeking those individuals out, that's brilliant. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. So that's, that's another thing. And then, then the third thing, I mean, you know, s- self-awareness, understand myself, watching good role models.

The rubber meets the road with behavior. Mm-hmm. All right? So now you've gotta do this sort of way. Then, and, you know, the little reminders and, and those kind of tools that you talked about, those, those are helpful. But you also have to develop some behavioral skill, and that means you gotta start doing this stuff.

You gotta practice. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And that's where it gets scary. 

Scott Allen: Mm-hmm. 

Rob Kaiser: It's scary because it can feel risky, you know? Yeah. The, I've relied on this set of tools. It's got me this far. I know it worked to some [00:30:00] degree. Maybe it's not working as well as it could, but boy, this stuff over here is so untested. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: So a lot of the coaching and development there, let's identify fairly low risk opportunities to experiment.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And this can run the gamut. Like, I remember one guy was scared to death of really delegating responsibility to his team. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Rob Kaiser: For all the usual reasons. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Rob Kaiser: I said, "Well, let's start with this. Why don't you let the kids pick which restaurant you go to this weekend? Why don't you let your wife pick what we're gonna stream tonight?"

I mean, we literally started on square one with this guy. Low risk. Not a lot at stake. See how it goes. And then, of course, we ramped up to bring it to work. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah, you might end up at Chick-fil-A, but that's okay. Just sit with it. And, and, and be, and be. Well, I- 

Rob Kaiser: And tell me- 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah ... 

Rob Kaiser: did you enjoy the chicken tenders?

Rob Kaiser: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they probably did. Um, [00:31:00] well, yes. And, and I think, uh, not enough people view work as an opportunity to practice. And, uh, you know, so- I, I think people are at work right now, millions, billions of them, but are they practicing anything? Is anything on their radar, large or small, as an opportunity to, again, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pause before we jump forward.

I'm gonna pause. I'm gonna ask the team what's the downside of this decision?" And whatever it is, uh, we have eight hours a day, five days a week, many of us, there's an opportunity to practice. And so I love that you're bringing that into the coaching, and I love that you're also making it small. Like, let's...

We're not trying to shift your behavior overnight, but you're in the game at least, right? 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. You're getting in the... Let's, let's start in the shallow end. 

Rob Kaiser: Well, I mean, it's no different than, I think, back to our, our conversation around sports. If I want to create a football [00:32:00] player, where do I start? If I want to create a baseball player, where do I start?

I don't, uh, start in some places that we start sometimes in leadership education, you know, talking about systems and such. Well, that's completely the wrong... That's the, that's the 747 that, you know, start with a Cessna and kind of build our way up. Let's 

Rob Kaiser: stack up to the big stuff, guys. 

Rob Kaiser: My freshman leadership class on complexity, you know?

Ugh.

Oh. 

Rob Kaiser: Well, you know, that, that's part of it, and there's any, any number of examples I could throw out there, but I think the point is made. You know, Scott, I, I have had the privilege of working with a number of extraordinarily capable, and also a number of extraordinarily incapable, of senior people in my career.

Scott Allen: Hmm. 

Rob Kaiser: And I have respect for all of them. I mean, I s- it sounds judgmental, but what I mean by saying that is I've seen a wide spectrum of senior execs and [00:33:00] their development challenges. I want to say this. We talked about three things you gotta do- Yeah ... to become a great personal leader. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: But there's a fourth thing I want to talk about, and I think it underlies all of it.

Rob Kaiser: Okay. 

Rob Kaiser: It comes down to identity and how you see yourself. 

Rob Kaiser: Okay. Say more. Say more. I'm intrigued. 

Rob Kaiser: Well, what drives a person to overdo this behavior and avoid that behavior? 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Well, in part is they have an over-idealized conception of these behaviors. Let's say it's forceful, it's driving, it's getting results, racking up points.

That's, that's the premium. And, and I'm a winner. That's what I do. 

Scott Allen: Yeah, yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: You know, I'm not a loser, I'm not namby-pamby. So they under-idealize the other side. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And in that process, they over-identify with the preferred side- 

Scott Allen: [00:34:00] Mm-hmm ... 

Rob Kaiser: and they disidentify with the other side. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: And I always notice this.

The thing they identify with, they describe in glowing terms. 

Rob Kaiser: Wow. 

Rob Kaiser: Other side, though, it's not fair and balanced. They describe in pejorative terms. It's more of a caricature. 

Rob Kaiser: Yes, yes. I just had a leader, a, a potential coach, uh, the, a, a potential engagement that I was having a conversation with my entry point into the organization yesterday, and she said that this leader views education and de- and leader development as just touchy-feely.

That, "Ugh, that's, we don't want touchy-feely," right? So is that an example of someone who's- Yes, it is. Dead giveaway Yeah. Ugh, right? Like... 

Rob Kaiser: Dead giveaway. When, when I'm, when I'm, I'm mentoring our coaches, you know, through, through our s- our system here at Kaiser, that's one of the things I sensitize. Look for the language they use.

The, the term I use is look for where the bad attitude is. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:35:00] Exactly. Because you're exact- I mean, yes, it, it is not all about touchy-feely and, but you know what? Self-awareness. And, and what I said to her was, "Well, there's real numbers behind what happens when someone isn't skilled at the touchy-feely stuff."

You know? There is, yeah. Being, being able to build a relationship with another human being. There's real numbers behind the downsides of that. That's right. Right? Oof. But, 

Rob Kaiser: but you know, Scott, all the data in the world's not gonna convince somebody. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah, yeah. No, you're probably exactly right. Some, some folks it will not, for sure.

Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: They have to have a lived experience for the tumblers to fall into place. Yeah. And, and look, can I give you an example? Yeah, yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Please, please. 

Rob Kaiser: One of my favorite coaching techniques early on in the relationship, try to suss out their mindset and those identity attachments. This is a, this is a real person, um, a very senior guy, a global company.

He ran a big chunk of business, so very successful track record. Former D1 college athlete. He's about 6'4", broad shoulders, [00:36:00] jutting jaw, the whole package. Got the image? 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah, I do. I have the picture, yes. 

Rob Kaiser: I said to- One thing more than anything else do you think great leaders do? And he said, "That's easy, Rob.

The best leaders bring a brutal width of clarity." A brutal width of clarity, what do you mean by that? "Well, they're crystal clear on what we're gonna do, what we're not gonna do. They call balls and strikes, and they let you know where you stand, even if it's not very tall." 

Rob Kaiser: Okay. 

Rob Kaiser: Got it. What's the opposite of that?

"Oh, that's that go along to get along, wouldn't stick your neck out for nobody, kinda gutless leader." Well, that doesn't sound very good. "No, it's not good. And if I'm honest with you, Rob, that's probably the number one source of inefficiency in the global economy, these managers who lack courage." Well, gosh, Rick, I've worked with a lot of executives.[00:37:00]

I've never had one of them tell me, "You know, I'm kind of a go along to get along leader." 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. He 

Rob Kaiser: said, "Let me try this again." Of course it's important to be clear with people. But what's the other good thing for a leader to also do? You know, like yin and yang. It's not like, you know, night's good, day's bad.

You need both in a lunar cycle. Yeah. What you need is a balanced leadership approach And this really sharp guy just gave me this blank stare. The wheels were turning, smoke was coming out of his ears, but he couldn't come up with a good thing that was in contrast to brutal clarity. So after that awkward pause, I said, "Look, Rick, you absolutely have to be clear, especially if people aren't measuring up.

You need to level with them." 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: But I'm also thinking there might be a place for m- maybe some tact and diplomacy, you know? So- 

Rob Kaiser: Every once 

Rob Kaiser: in a while. So, so they can hear what you're saying without getting [00:38:00] hung up on how you're saying it. And this is what he said. He said, um, "Yeah, tact, I've been given that feedback before, but I still believe in brutal clarity."

Rob Kaiser: Wow. 

Rob Kaiser: So what's happening? He sees himself as a tough guy. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: That's his identity. Yep. He's a tough guy. 

Rob Kaiser: Yep. And it's a long created pathway in his mind, right? So how do you even begin? And as, so as we begin to kind of wind down this conversation, Rob, we need to have another conversation. But how do you think about beginning to, uh, d- you know, chip away might not be the right phrase, but chip away at the, the kind of the grip that that identity has on his ability to connect with a wider spectrum of people?

I mean, how do you think about that? 

Rob Kaiser: Well, let me tell you the coded Rick story- Yeah ... 'cause I think it's in there. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: So, you know, fast-forward, uh, he did the, uh, Leadership Versatility Index 360, got feedback, shocked. People thought he was too forceful. So, all right, he's kinda [00:39:00] hard. Then we put together some development goals, and you could tell his heart wasn't fully...

He recognized that's what they wanted more of and less of from him, but he's kind of going through the motions. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: The breakthrough happened about a month later. He came to a coaching session and he says, "You know, Rob, this soft stuff is the hardest stuff of all in leadership, and I major in hard stuff."

He'd finally turned it over enough in his head to where he could define that other side in terms that he could relate to and see himself behaving in a way that was genuine, authentic him. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: But the thing is, look, you or I could've told him what the other thing was. We could've told him he needed to do it.

Then I'd be coaching for compliance. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah. He just had to- 

Scott Allen: Yeah ...

Rob Kaiser: dig it all up and create some, you know, discomfort and then have his head turning until he could come up with the right answer. So now I can [00:40:00] coach for commitment to a more expanded and capable version of Rick. 

Rob Kaiser: I love it. Yeah, I- That 

Rob Kaiser: he authored.

Rob Kaiser: Well, I think of the Amy Edmondson quote where she says, uh- The soft skills are the hard skills. So you just had to convince him that these are the hard things. Well, 

Rob Kaiser: no, that was the beauty of it. Really, it's, it's, it's like jujitsu. I didn't convince him. 

Rob Kaiser: Yeah, yeah. You used his energy to... Yeah. 

Rob Kaiser: I provoked the heck out of him.

I was poking at him. Mm-hmm. But that was just to keep him in that space of dissonance and trying to get it all to add up- Mm ... so he would come up with his own definition of better. 

Rob Kaiser: Wow. Well, Rob, we need to do this again. We need to do this again. I mean, I, I, I have loved this conversation. And, I mean, as you think about just the conversation we've had so far, what do you think is the practical wisdom for listeners?

What stands out for you? What do you want them to take away from this conversation? 

Rob Kaiser: Well, you know, practical wisdom, [00:41:00] Phronesis, the name of your pod. I'm gonna go back to something I earlier said, maybe underscore it. Know thyself, nothing in excess, surety brings ruin. 

Rob Kaiser: Right? I mean, uh, they knew these things back then.

Which brings me to the whole other part of our- Maybe we'll start our next conversation with the human condition of, you know, you, these, these concepts have been around for years. And, and so how do we as humans, uh, better live into them? I mean, it's a fascinating puzzle. It really, really is. But, um, I love those three, and I, I, I appreciate you bringing those to my attention today.

Those are awesome. Maybe that's what we'll call the, uh, the p- the episode. Uh- The three things you need to have on your radar to start. 

Rob Kaiser: Ancient wisdom

Rob Kaiser: with Scott 

Rob Kaiser: Allen. Ancient... Yeah, ex- exactly. Oh. Well, sir- Scott, I wanna say thanks a lot for having me on. And gosh, if you'd like to have me [00:42:00] back, this has been a kick in the pants. I always enjoy talking with you, so put it on the dance card. 

Rob Kaiser: Awesome. Awesome. Thank you, sir. Be well. We'll do it again. 

Rob Kaiser: Take good care.

Scott Allen: Thank you so much for 

Rob Kaiser: listening to Practical Wisdom for Leaders, the official podcast of the International Leadership Association. Be sure to leave a rating, share this episode with someone in your network, and visit the show notes for links, references, and additional resources. You can also subscribe to the Practical Wisdom for Leaders newsletter for more insights and resources.

Link is in the show notes. I lead retreats for senior leadership teams, conduct engaging workshops, and deliver inspiring keynotes for organizations across industries. To learn more, visit www.scottjallen.net. Until next time, keep changing lives.