Dr. Cynthia Cherrey - An Experience of a Lifetime: ILA's Past, Present, and Future

In this episode, Dr. Cynthia Cherrey discusses the past, present, and future of the International Leadership Association.  Her story of the founding is rich and descriptive - an experience of a lifetime.

Cynthia Cherrey is President and CEO of the International Leadership Association (ILA), a global community committed to increasing quality research, teaching, and practices of leadership contributing to the common good around the world. As president of a multi-sector and global professional association, she promotes rigor and relevance of leadership at the intersection of theory and practice. Previously, Cynthia served as Lecturer in the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and Vice President for Campus Life at Princeton University.

Dr. Cherrey speaks to non-profit and for-profit organizations around the world and writes in the areas of leadership, organizational development, and higher education. Cynthia’s interests and research explore new ways to live, work, and lead in a knowledge-driven, interdependent, global culture. Recently she did a podcast series for VoiceAmerica’s business channel on global leadership with Maureen Metcalf, host of Innovative Leaders Driving Thriving Organizations. A sought-after advisor, Cynthia serves on the editorial board of Asian Women and the President’s Advisory Group at Carnegie Mellon University. She is a Fellow at the World Business Academy, a Royal Society of the Arts Fellow, and a recipient of a J.W. Fulbright Scholarship.

Quotes From This Episode

• "This was an experience of a lifetime to be sitting in the same room with James McGregor Burns, who was one of the founders of the ILA along with Georgia Sorenson. And, of course, the person who helped with the funding of that program was Lorraine Matusek, who was a program director at the Kellogg Foundation at the time."
• "So we had 100 professionals from across the country who came together to further this conversation. And I think one of the pivotal moments for me out of that conversation was...it was the first time that Warren Bennis and James McGregor Burns got together in person."
• "In the sense of Lorraine (Matusak) and Georgia (Sorenson), we lost to our founders. And when you think about what they did, in leaving a legacy that's going to echo for generations."
• "I think one of the things that we have learned in leadership, and especially with crisis leadership, is that it opens the opportunity for change."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• The Code Breaker: Jennifer Doudna, Gene Editing, and the Future of the Human Race by Walter Isaacson

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Transcript

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate. 

Scott Allen  0:01  
Good afternoon, everybody. Today on the Phronesis podcast, I have a really fun conversation with Dr. Cynthia Cherrey. And she is the President and CEO of the International leadership Association, which is a global community committed to increasing quality research, teaching, and practices of leadership contributing to the common good around the world. It's an organization that I've mentioned many, many times on this podcast. So today, we are going to the source which I am so excited to do before Cyn was with the ILA. She served as a lecturer in the Woodrow Wilson School of Public international affairs and vice president for campus life at Princeton University. And of course, there's a lot more, there's a lot more sin, what gaps do we need to fill in that, that I've not shared with our listeners so far? Thank you for being here.

Cyn Cherrey  0:54  
Well, Dr. Allen, it's a pleasure to be here. And I have to congratulate you on your podcast series, and on being an ILA Fellow. And for us moving forward to have this podcast series as an ILA podcast along with you. That's it, we are so excited to be in partnership with you.

Scott Allen  1:18  
I am excited as well, thank you so much for reaching out, we are going to have a lot of fun, we're going to have some incredible conversations. And I think this partnership is going to do some real good in the world. I really do believe that. So thank you sin. Tell us about you. 

Cyn Cherrey  1:34  
Let's see, I have been, as you mentioned with the ILA since its very beginning, which started in 1999. But prior to that time, was a part of the KLSP program that brought together about 50 scholars in the field of leadership, to talk about leadership at that time, it was the very first time that had happened. When that was going on. I was actually at the University of Southern California. So I've had a long history in higher education, overall, from the University of Southern California, both in the graduate teaching program in leadership and higher education, as well as in student affairs work. And then from there at Tulane University, as Vice President for Student Affairs and had the experience of being at Tulane during Hurricane Katrina, which of course, brought me then into the whole experience of actualizing crisis leadership, which we can also talk briefly about if you would like at some time, and then Princeton University, but through the thread of all the work I have done, has been the study and the practice of leadership.

Scott Allen  2:48  
Take us back to that original meeting. Who were some of the players in the room, having conversations about what would become the ILA? Can you share some stories?

Cyn Cherrey  3:00  
Without names or with names?

Scott Allen  3:02  
With names of course!

Cyn Cherrey  3:05  
This was an experience of a lifetime to be sitting in the same room with James McGregor Burns, who was one of the founders of the ILA along with Georgia Sorenson. And, of course, the person who helped with the funding of that program was Lorraine Matusek, who was a program director at the Kellogg Foundation at the time. So the  Kellogg Leadership Studies Project (KLSP) was funded by a Kellogg grant for four years. And in that room at the University of Maryland, where the individuals like Ronnie Heifetz, James McGregor Burns, Georgia Sorenson, Gill Hickman, Joanne Cuilla, Barbara Kellerman, Bernie Bass, and Peter Vaill, just some of the names that you would think of that would be in that group studying leadership from their discipline or their perspective but had never really gotten in the same room together. So the goal of the KLSP was to bring together eminent scholars who were studying leadership from their perspective if it was political science or business, or liberal arts or philosophy, to gather together for four years to really focus on some key areas and one was ethical leadership, transformational leadership, leadership, and followership to develop concept papers out of that group convened for four years. And when it wrapped up, there was a bridge grant, if you will, which became the meeting of the minds conference at the University of Southern California, where Barbara Kellerman was the lead and then asked if I would host it. So we had 100 professionals from across the country who came together to further this conversation. And I think one of the pivotal moments for me out of that conversation was...it was the first time that Warren Bennis and James McGregor Burns got together in person. They knew of each other's work. They were highly respectful of each other's work. One was in the political science, political theorists for Jim Burns, and more in being in a business area. So they knew of each other's work had read each other's work, in fact, I think had even talked to each other, but it never met. And at that meeting, Jim Burns introduced Warren and more, gave a keynote and more and introduced Jim Burns, and they gave a keynote.

Scott Allen  5:52  
Well, and I have to imagine some of the conversations were absolutely fascinating over those four years. Were there any others that stood out for you moments where maybe even there's not a disagreement in a negative way, but just vastly different perspectives as we're trying to make sense of the landscape? And I was also surprised a little bit that there was a working group on leaders and followership as well, that's interesting.

Cyn Cherrey  6:18  
Robert Kelly, and Ed Hollander and Ed was the chair of that group, I'd say another of that group, there was a moment where you learn in our work, the disconnect, sometimes between what you write about a topic versus the practice, a conversation, where three or four of the leadership scholars were strongly disagreeing with each other, not on content, but on the process. And they were there was a tug and pull. And many of us in the room were just watching this. And at the end, after about half an hour of this going on. You know, it was a wonderful example of the difference between authority and power, right. And at the end of this conversation, Jim Burns, steps in, in his very thoughtful, insightful way, and turn the conversation on its head, and got everybody moving in the same direction. And it was just eloquently and beautifully done. And that's what Jim Burns could do. Right. He was a student of leadership, and he wanted all of us to be students of leadership. And so what he did was he talked about the content of that conversation, and the process of that conversation. At the same time,

Scott Allen  7:56  
I was only in the room with him a few times, only in the room with Bernie Bass a few times. And I'll never forget a conversation I had with Bernie Bass. I think I was still a doctoral candidate. And I said, How are you so prolific? And he looked at me and he said something to the effect. And I'm not going to get the mathematics correct here, because I can't do that quickly. But he said, yo, two pages a day is 700 plus words a year. That's never left me. It's never left me. And I think when I saw James McGregor Burns speak, it was after his book transforming leadership had come out. I think it was one of his last publications. But, you know, with the passing recently of Lorraine, Matusek, and Georgia Sorenson, who I tried to get on the podcast, we were so close to having her as a guest. You know, it's just so special to be in a room with some of these giants in the field and to have been there at that moment with 50 plus giants. And in those early days were of the organization of ILA, where we're still exploring and bringing these different perspectives together. Now, fast forward 20 plus years, and we're still embroiled in some of those conversations.

Cyn Cherrey  9:23  
But that's what a field is, isn't it? I mean, there should be a sense of debate and conversation. One of the other I think, interesting points of that time together was Joe Rost, who was another individual was at the University of San Diego. And said, you know, we are also close to defining leadership. I think with all this collective brain trust, we should be able to come up with the definition of leadership. And people said go at it and he worked at it for the entire hour. Afternoon for four hours Georgia Sorenson and Jim Burns said "go at it." And he couldn't, because people, you know, you know how scholars get down to them to the ward. And that's part of the strength of being a scholar and a researcher. Right, that sense. But in the end, he just isn't okay. We can agree on general principles. But we really can't agree on the definition. And I think you know what, that's okay. Flash forward. We just had a task force that came together to look at guiding standards for academic leadership programs. And they came away with this wonderful set of guiding questions for academic leadership programs that can really assess the development for new programs, and evaluate how you're doing in your present program. But the other thing they did is they came up with general leadership principles for all leadership programs. That's profound. And we're rolling that out this year. It's on the ILA website right now. But that task force, chaired by Sadhana Hall and Gama Perucci did phenomenal work. And the task force members were from all over the world. It is a very diverse, and wickedly smart group of professionals that work together really hard. And they built off of other areas, which is what happens in this field, right? In the sense of Lorraine and Georgia. Yeah, we lost to our founders. And when you think about what they did, in leaving a legacy that's going to echo for generations.

Scott Allen  11:46  
Would you talk a little bit about them?

Cyn Cherrey  11:50  
Georgia was a person who was a dreamer and a doer.

Scott Allen  12:01  
That's a powerful combination.

Cyn Cherrey  12:03  
She knew she wasn't always the one who was going to get it done. But she knew who to engage to get it done. Her doing was engaging and involving others. All right. And she did this in a very brilliant way. She was a person who often modeled what she talked about in terms of invisible leadership. Right, she was really that sense of purpose and the drive that made things happen. And she engaged others along the way to bring them along. So she was a dreamer and adore. Lorraine had the vision. And she was the person who could convince others that this is what had to happen. And she's known for saying leadership for what, right? So make sure when you do something, you measure it, and you do it, and you do it well. So both of them powerful, powerful scholars, and leaders for the field that both of them along with Jim Burns, right, we had the father in our two mothers, for as our founders, and they did an amazing job at laying the groundwork, and leaving a legacy and building the field of leadership.

Scott Allen  13:29  
And as you think about today, what are some things now that excites you? What are you looking to that is on the horizon, or that's happening as we speak, that really energizes you and it could be something like the guiding standards, that which we'll post in the show notes for sure. But what are some other things that are happening that really energize you?

Cyn Cherrey  13:59  
So again, I'll tie the beginning of our founding with today, as the ILA was being discussed. And this association right after the meeting of the minds, and people are saying we have to continue. And to do that we need to have an association. And as we looked at that, the name came up, it has to be not only an association of leadership scholars, it has to be an association that brings those who study and practice leadership together, which then also implied those who teach leadership that had to be there. And second, it can't just be a North American Association. It has to be International. So it was bold and bodacious from the very beginning. And Barbara Kellerman was the first executive director of the ILA for the years at when she was at the University of Maryland at the Burns Academy, and we've always been international and we always draw To have this comprehensive, global membership, and we're continuing to strive at that work really hard at it. But one of the things that I'm very excited about right now is, as we were talking about being international and being a global Association, what does that mean for global leadership? And so Mike Hardy, as the chair of the board, and myself talked about how do we bring together global leaders to talk about global leadership? And so we asked Kim Campbell if she would share this group. And as many of our members know, Kim Campbell was an ILA she keynoted for us. She was on the board early on. And as the former Prime Minister of Canada, and as a founder of a leadership school, at a university in Canada, she gets it. And so Kim said, Absolutely, I'll do this. And we invited Lord John Alderdice, we invited George Papandreou, who's the former prime minister of Greece. We invited Ronnie Heifetz as a leadership scholar Gill Hickman as a leadership scholar, Larry Diamond, from the Hoover Institute at Stanford, as a person who brings democracy to the forefront. And because right now the fragility of democracies, brought this group together and talked about what is and what do we mean about global leadership today? And what do we need to be looking forward to? What are the four sides for global leadership moving forward? Because we know the world is more complicated, more complex, more interdependent, if anything, it's hyper-connected? What does all of that mean for global leadership? In an era when we're dealing with lots of systemic change that's taking place around the world? And it's different? What's that mean, for governments? What does that mean for business was a mean for systems? And what does that really mean? The outcome of this is, what are the questions we should be asking ourselves around global leadership moving forward? What are the questions around global leadership that we should be researching? So that's the nexus of the project. And the next steps are a brief white paper that has a series of questions. And we're going to open this up to a series of roundtables, both online with our ILA membership, and on-site with various partners to dig even deeper, and get more perspectives on what are the questions that we should be asking ourselves moving forward? So I'm very excited about that project.

Scott Allen  18:05  
Well, if we're asking the right questions, that that can make all the difference sometimes. Oh, that's wonderful. Well, what else? What else is exciting you as you look at the landscape right now of ILA?

Cyn Cherrey  18:18  
One of the things that we have a partner, that is IREX, which is a partner that works around global exchanges around the world, and they also support the Mandela Fellowship, which is every year 700 fellows in African nations who are in that 25 to 35 age bracket and are doing phenomenal and amazing work within their communities in all different sectors.

Scott Allen  18:57  
And Deborah, from the ILA, she had mentioned this, and I can't wait, I mean, it's, it's that's a perfect example, Cyn of how this relationship can work so beautifully, because I can't wait to have some conversations with some of those individuals, and capture those conversations and maybe even create a little bit of a series of those conversations, so that people all over the world can hear their stories, right. So I love that.

Cyn Cherrey  19:25  
Scott, you will be blown away by this talent, the talent in these fellows. When the ILA did a conference at the University of Pretoria in South Africa. One of the fellows was there, who's a veterinarian, and he's doing some amazing work, leadership work in his community. He came to the ILA presented the work that he's doing along with a leadership scholar who he had met, and together they're just doing this amazing work. Those are the types. I mean, he's, he's not the only one, there are so many like that. It's a game-changer, right? We also met with a fellow who is changing the way to grow grapes, and make wine in South Africa. And he's creating this entire ecosystem. And again, he connected with leadership scholars and telling the story of how he transformed this family business into this leadership business and into this great example of an ecosystem of today. He's another good person you should interview.

Scott Allen  20:43  
Yes, maybe I'll have to go do an on-site visit for that one.

Cyn Cherrey  20:51  
On-site tasting.

Scott Allen  20:54  
Yes, that's kind of what I meant! Oh, that's wonderful. That's absolutely wonderful. And tell me about your experience of hosting last year's conference online. What are your reflections on that? Because there's been so much that has shifted in this last year. Since I came across this statistic the other day, this is health care. Now I'm switching way switching topics on you. But I think this pandemic has accelerated the digital space. By years and years and years and years at this point. I mean, there were 1 billion telehealth visits last year, 1 billion telehealth visits now, just think how far healthcare would have come in that one year that there were 1 billion telehealth visits. And so I have to imagine all of these conferences that occurred online. I just spoke with the executive director of the management and organizational behavior teaching society, he said that their membership has increased a lot. And it's gotten more global because people had access because people could attend people could be involved in a different way. So what are some of your reflections on that experience? I mean, of course, we want to get back, to live events and being with one another. But there's also opportunity in some of this space, would you agree?

Cyn Cherrey  22:19  
Absolutely. And we all know that. in crisis, there is different forms of innovation. That is one of the beautiful things that mean, that I have learned and that the research shows us that in crisis, it amplifies our weaknesses and amplifies our strengths.

Scott Allen  22:40  
Well, and there had to have been some opportunities that emerged with even the digitization of the conference last year in November. I mean, it was wonderful that we could get Ron Heifetz and Ron Riggio and ones in Hawaii, I think he was in one was in California. And we can hear a dialogue between the two of them and people from all over the globe, engaging, and there were these virtual happy hours that I was attending for a couple of nights in a row. It was so much fun, and it was so wonderful to engage in that way. I guess my question for you would be what was your observation? I mean, obviously, we want to get back to face to face. But what's your observation on that experience, as you reflect on it?

Cyn Cherrey  23:23  
I think one of the things that we have learned in leadership, and especially with crisis leadership, is that it opens the opportunity for change. Right, and that we know that humans love to connect and that humans are creative. And so with this last year, technology just ramped up considerably. And individuals with their need to connect, found ways to learn very quickly into adapt to the new technology very quickly, all in this focus of wanting to connect with each other and to feel some semblance of, of the work that they do around leadership, or whatever the profession is, right. So this sense of connection. So putting on a conference, a global conference, if you will, like this does lend itself to the opportunity to invite individuals who you could never get to fly to San Francisco for a short period of time. The fact of having Dr. Tedros, the Director General of the World Health Organization, to spend time with us, and he stepped out of the United Nations meeting in Geneva, to join us online that of course, no one else knows. But we know from in terms of his stepping out of one room and into another on one computer and not to another computer, but it's that sense of having the ability for people to join for you to keynote. For me to keynote in different parts of the world, now, I personally have to say I miss the meeting with the people and immersing in the culture, which you can get a taste of, but not the full banquet when you're online. But there are other ways add that add benefits, even more, it allows those who couldn't join and couldn't attend to now, join us at the global conference. So there was this increase of members from different parts of the world. So those type of things, and that allows for different types of interactions. So we will continue to do that type of work. I think the future of the association of the ILA and many others is how do you create these hyflex models? How do you develop those on-site conferences and summits and meetings that are so important, where you immerse yourself in the culture of a place? And also have the online virtual sessions? And how do you do both?

Scott Allen  26:11  
Because there were folks that I met from Europe, I had Jonathan Reams on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. And, you know, editor of the Integral Review, and that was a wonderful conversation. And I met him as a direct result of because I think, again, there's a myth, well, we're not gonna you can't meet people and mingle in the same way. Well, you can, it's different, it's different. But I think some of those aims can be met. And I think it's just a really interesting time that we're in because it'll be fascinating to watch how we reintegrate into the world.

Cyn Cherrey  26:45  
And at the same time, I think we take cues from our kids, as you do from yours, in the sense of, I can think of my grandkids, they're saying, they're so excited to get back to school, and they see their friends. And it's okay to be online and see them on the other as a square. But they're so excited to be back in school. And they also want that, that human touch that social context. So taking cues from our younger generations of the younger generation of how to connect in different ways, if it's online for certain things and in-person in other ways. It's just going to be important in how we move forward, that's going to be the interesting thing. How do we continue to get creative and innovative, even when we don't have to as much?

Scott Allen  27:37  
We'll send one more question. And this is just from your purview of the field because so much crosses your path. What are some opportunities that you think we need to explore as, as a place of inquiry? What needs further investigation? What are the opportunities in that space? 

Cyn Cherrey  28:02  
Just off the top of my mind, and probably because of some of the things I'm reading right now? How do we move forward around the topics of leadership and trust? Right, trust in governments trust in business trust in systems? Good. Another big area is around leadership and democracy and the fragility of democracy, but also leadership in autocratic societies? And how do we live and work in a world that is operating with both? Those to come top of mind, I guess, leadership for humanity, and continuing to think as I'm so focused right now on leadership in this global world, in this interdependent interconnected world? How do we think about leadership differently? How do we get out of the leader model, the individual perspective, to thinking about leadership embedded in the system and leadership for all and with all because as the World Economic Forum and others have talked about, in this world, how do we think about competition and cooperation? and both are important.

Scott Allen  29:22  
And balancing those right? How do you ensure that large factions of people at least have access to even the base level needs and so that they have a hope of self-actualizing hope of progressing getting further that for me is the ultimate leadership for what it's how do we level that playing field and provide an opportunity for millions and millions of people to thrive?

Cyn Cherrey  29:52  
Right. I think Scott, you are. One that so many people are grappling with. We need to grapple with is around leadership and equity. And if there's anything this pandemic has done, we've slipped back on areas around the gap in poverty, the gap on gender equity, those gaps have gotten larger again. And it's hard after there was progress made for a few years. So equity and leadership are going to be a critical piece of all of us working towards in the very near future.

Scott Allen  30:32  
Well, sin, let's wind down there. And I always close out the podcast with a couple of questions. And it's really just about what you've been streaming or listening to or reading that stood out for you in recent months. And it could have to do leadership, maybe it has nothing to do with leadership

Cyn Cherrey  30:51  
Well, probably another, which I would say is a big and huge area that I didn't even think of top of mind was around sustainability and regenerative futures. So as I'm reading Bill Gates' book right now around climate, and what I love about it is what each of us can do individually, as well as what we need to do collectively. So that's actually a book I'm reading. And the other one for fun is Walter Isaacson's book on the codebreakers, which is a good book but takes a while to go through. But he's a wonderful writer. And I've learned something every time I read one of his books.

Scott Allen  31:31  
Yeah, I think I read Einstein that was Isaacson. Correct. Or at least he wrote a book about Einstein, and then Steve Jobs. Yeah, I haven't I have not explored, it called codebreakers? 

Cyn Cherrey  31:42  
Codebreakers, it just came out. And Einstein was a wonderful book. And having lived in Princeton and live close to where he had a home, it was like, being a part of history, it's unfolding, used to walk by a statue of Einstein every day on my way to work. And it was right by a stoplight and it had some of his major sayings on it. So you would stop and if you almost hope for a red light because you could read another one of his quotes and just ponder it for a day. Right? So the beauty of living in towns like that, and the joy, I mean, I, it's a joy of that type of work. But I am so honored and have such a privilege and a responsibility to be a part of the International leadership Association. And the work that the members are doing. I mean, you gain so much energy, by what others are doing. And then I'm always be talked about being an author of being in this group of 50 individuals who are the founders, in many ways of the ILA, I am in awe every day of the work that ILA members are doing around the world. It's phenomenal research, and practice, and teaching this taking place.

Scott Allen  33:06  
It's so cool. I mean, again, if you look at my list of guests, a large number of ILA members, longtime ILA members really doing very cool work in their space, and exploring and conducting research and engaging in the practice, and developing leaders. It's just such a wonderful community. It just is. And it's been an honor to be a part of it. Since I think the conference in Seattle was my first which might have been in the 90s back in the 90s. Cyn, thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for really creating a space for all of that work to occur. I think, again, my primary relationships in this work have stemmed from this organization, which is a result of your work and the work of others, of course, but of your work over the years and creating that space for people to make those connections, build relationships, and hopefully do some good in the world. So thanks for all you do.

Cyn Cherrey  34:14  
Thank you. The work of many...collective leadership.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai