The Ethically Immoral Podcast
The Ethically Immoral Podcast is a program dedicated to long-form conversations with poets, spoken word artists, authors, and creatives who use language as a tool for truth-telling, healing, and resistance. Hosted by Mike Payne, the show travels beyond the typical interview to explore the personal histories, artistic philosophies, and cultural contexts that shape the voice of the Creatives we welcome.
It’s not just about poetry or performance — it’s about the people behind the pen. We talk about identity, healing, joy, frustration, and the journey of becoming. Some moments are deep, others are funny, but all of them are authentic. If you’re someone who values storytelling, vulnerability, and good conversation, this space was created and cultivated for you.
The Ethically Immoral Podcast
Volume Six: Chapter Sixteen - Our Conversation with Leslie Saint Julien
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In Volume Six: Chapter Sixteen of The Program, we welcome Poet, Actor, Producer, Playwright, and Author of the new book Hair Me, Leslie Saint Julien. Making her third appearance on the podcast, Leslie returns to discuss the evolution of her personal and powerful stage project Hair Me: A Journey Through the Rich Tapestry of Black Hair and the book of the same name.
In this wide-ranging and honest conversation, Leslie shares how 2025 became a transformative year after a period of burnout and creative exhaustion, and what she’s learned about rest, resilience, and intention. We explore her journey from writing an award-winning poem to developing it into a one-woman stage play, complete with a companion book, script, and educational study guide designed for classrooms.
She opens up about the pressures Black women face when it comes to hair — not just in terms of aesthetics, but as a matter of survival, self-expression, and social perception. We dig into the emotional and cultural weight of “code-switching” one’s hairstyle, the complexity of navigating critique, and the behind-the-scenes work required to bring a theatrical vision to life.
Leslie is also the author of Brooklyn Stew and three poetry collections. A graduate of the University of Maryland with a degree in Criminology and Criminal Justice, she later studied acting at the New York Film Academy.
Contact Leslie:
Instagram: @lesliesainjulien Website: lesliesaintjulien.com
Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:
Destiny Birdsong – Killing White
Instagram: @bird_songoftheyear Website: destintbirdsong.com
Destiny Birdsong – Mythicona
Instagram: @bird_songoftheyear Website: destinybirdsong.com
Ray Jane – Spoils
Instagram: @itsrayjane Website: itsrayjane.com
Summer Durant: Same
Instagram: @summeraen
Ghetto Jedi the Poet: Strap Up
