Mortgage Note Investing Weekly

EP109: My First Note Purchase With Jay Redding

• Rick Allen & Brett Burky • Season 4 • Episode 109

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In this episode, we have a fascinating conversation with Jay Redding, a note investor with a wealth of experience. Jay shares his insights into note investing, his transition from the real estate world, and details about his very first mortgage note purchase.

He also discusses the advantages of hypothecation in note investing and how it can benefit your portfolio. If you're interested in note investing or considering your first note purchase, this episode is packed with valuable information!


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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:00 - Welcoming Note Investor, Jay Redding
2:30 - Jay's Recent Note Purchases and Strategies
5:15 - A Unique Subject-To Deal
6:05 Pharmaceuticals to Real Estate Investing
7:53 - Transitioning from Real Estate to Notes
11:07 - How Jay Got Started in Note Investing
11:56 - The Details of Jay's First Mortgage Note Purchase
15:44 - Benefits of Hypothecation in Note Investing
18:53 - Lesson for Someone Purchasing Their 1st Mortgage Note
19:07 Due Diligence Checklist 
21:18 - Considerations for Cash Flow in Note Investments
22:25 - Challenges and Opportunities in the Note Market

Learn more about Jay Redding here: https://cassidyinvestments.com/

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Rick Allen:

Welcome back to the Paperstac Podcast. Keeping it going. Rick Allen, Brett Burky. Going on our next we got an exciting one today. We always like these. My first note, we've got Jay Redding with us. User on the platform for sure. I've actually, I think I've sold Jay. A note or

Jay Redding:

two. Yes, you have. Through the

Rick Allen:

platform. Yes, you have. We're excited to have you on, Jay. Thanks for joining us. How are things treating

Jay Redding:

you right now? Things are treating us well, and thank you so much for the opportunity. Certainly appreciate that, and consider it an honor to, to chat with you guys, great.

Rick Allen:

Yeah, no worries. We bump into each other time for time. I think the last time was last November in Dallas.

Jay Redding:

Yeah, last time I saw you, but I saw Brett at

Rick Allen:

DME. Yeah, that's right. Yes, I wanted to go, but I had prior engagements. Couldn't make it. Where are we going to see you next? You guys, you going out to Node

Jay Redding:

Expo, or? We will. We'll be at Node Expo. Yes. Perfect. Looking forward to seeing you. That's our next one

Brett Burky:

too. We got a LAN one, but that's

Rick Allen:

different. We've got a LAN NOS one. And I may end up, I don't know. So I haven't decided. I might go to. Out to California yet for Iman? Yeah, I may go out there. People are asking me to come out and meet 'em out there. Oh wow. I'm like, maybe I'll go do it. I don't

Jay Redding:

know. Traveling. Traveling, man. There you go. Yeah, for real. That's a long trip. It is a

Rick Allen:

long trip. Especially for just a couple days. But Jay, tell us tell us what you're into right now and what kind of stuff you've been buying. Sounds like earlier on we were talking, you've got a lot of different things going on. A lot of irons in the fire.

Jay Redding:

We do. We have a couple of different things going on. We have, we've purchased, recently just purchased a couple of partials. That's what we've done. We've done that. We just purchased a sub two. And we just created a seller finance note. Basically a debt consolidation. Scenario for someone that came to us, actually referred to us by another investor who person owned the house free and clear, ran into some financial difficulties, had been, a good payer for a long time, had some health issues, some debt and then ours got cut back at job

Rick Allen:

and they were just

Jay Redding:

overextended. So we did that in, We're hypothecating that one as well. When you lend them a... Yeah, we just lent them about 50, 50 cents on the dollar to the value of the house, and so we're pretty

Rick Allen:

well covered in theirs. That's good. Tell me about the Subject 2 deal. How did that one wind up in your lap?

Jay Redding:

That was actually brought to us by a former intern of ours who is a realtor and he received a telephone call and he basically called me up and he said you're the only person I know that can help these people. That's yeah, so we do a lot of networking we don't have much of a marketing budget to be honest. It's just basically through networking and working with people and helping people out is what we basically do.

Rick Allen:

That's it. When you get out there and you start doing, especially when you move from real estate into notes, you become very creative and people, they're like, Hey, if there's somebody that can do a deal, that's the person. I found that true. Interesting on the subject too, was it something that they'd recently purchased within the past three or four years, or was something they've owned for

Jay Redding:

a while, what was sure. The whole scenario was they had purchased it in, I think, two years ago, between two and three years ago. And they were coming up on 60 days delinquent. The house needs some work, I mean we're actually in the middle of rehabbing it right now is what we're doing, I've got my crews over there. I was over there this morning, matter of fact, talking with my design person and everything and picking out colors. But the ARV on the home, after repair value, we're looking at around 160, we owe about 97, we've taken over the note at 97, 000 into it. And then we plan on seller financing, that's what we're going to do. There's not that much money in it as a flip, but when we got the interest rate at three percent and we'll sell it at nine and a half,

Rick Allen:

I think that might be pretty doggone well. I like the delta there. Six and a half percent and probably you'll have, not that much money.

Jay Redding:

A good chunk. Yeah, we anticipate getting 20, 000, 30, 000 as a down payment. Wow. That's awesome. Yeah,

Rick Allen:

that's the way to do it. I was telling Brett a little bit about the Subject 2s and how the that kind of fits the exact mold of somebody who bought it two to three years ago. They got a low interest rate and something's happened. You can get in there and buy a house right now. Yeah,

Jay Redding:

I'll be honest. It was a sad situation for these people. I mean they had You know they were paying fine. They had a family issue They had to go actually they moved back to Florida back in your neck of the woods and apparently a friend of theirs begged them to rent the house to them and they did and they just absolutely trashed the place. Oh jeez. Terrible. Yeah. And they don't have the funds to be able to re, repair it and there's not enough spread for a wholesale pricing to come in and do it, anything like that. So we truly was their only option in this situation. Was that your first

Brett Burky:

subject too? Or have you done those before?

Jay Redding:

That is my first subject, too. Oh, did

Rick Allen:

you have somebody walk you through the paperwork on

Jay Redding:

it, or was it pretty straightforward? Pretty straightforward. Fortunately, my attorney here locally that we use, he's worked in, when he first came out of law school, he worked a number of years in the banking industry, he understands what we're doing with notes and everything, and he's done a number of subject twos as far as paperwork and everything. He says, to date, I've never had one called on me, so don't you be the first one. That's, so hopefully not. As long as they're getting

Rick Allen:

paid, right? You would think that they're not doing anything, but you never know.

Jay Redding:

Yeah, but we're prepared. Yeah, we're prepared regardless, either way. We've got private lenders if it does happen to get called but it's going to cost us more money. Alright, and the spread won't be nearly as good, but it will still work either way. Of course. Okay

Rick Allen:

Let's dive in. Tell us, where did, how did you get started in notes? As you've heard, you're doing a lot now. How'd you get started in notes? What kind of led you to that path? What's your background? And then we'll dive into the first one.

Jay Redding:

Sure. I did my first, I came from the real estate side. I did my first deal in 2004. I did that on the side while I was still working. I was in the pharmaceutical industry for 17 years. And my plan at that time was about 8 years from early retirement. I'm a late bloomer, late starter. For all you guys that are just getting started that's older, there's hope for you. Okay. But basically about eight years away from early retirement and I was planning on getting some rentals and take the early retirement and be on my way. The company decided that went through a whole bunch of downsizes, downsizing and I. Made it through like the first two rounds, but got caught on the third is what it was. And the bottom line was, is that, okay, we sat down, my wife and I sat down, it's okay, I really don't want to stay in the pharmaceutical industry, I want to pursue the real estate. So that's basically, fortunately we did some significant downsizing. We lived on my wife's income and we literally, fortunately we had everything paid off at that time. We didn't have any debt other than the rims, okay. And we basically went full tilt. I went full tilt on the real estate side. We've done over a hundred flips. And we have, currently have 40 rentals. I brought my son in law on board about, oh gosh, it's coming up. eight, nine years ago now. 2000. Yeah, something like that. His name's Kyle. You guys have met him all right before. But he pretty much runs all the real estate side and now, so we still keep the 40 rentals and he's the one that actually started as we started talking about making the transition for me gradually moving out and what he wants to do down the road. I have one daughter, one child, one daughter, so you know where everything's going on. Yeah. Okay. So that's easy. Yeah, so looking at the transition, in that respect, he, for some reason, he doesn't want to manage rentals for the rest of his life, and I don't know why, but apparently he... He's actually the one that got us involved and interested in looking at the notes, and I decided, alright, we talked and everything, and I said, okay, if we're going to go this route, and I'm okay with it, And let's do our research who has the experience, who has the knowledge, and who has not just, who's just not first typing, but who's really got the knowledge out there, and we'll go to the best people that we can find. And that was Eddyspeed, which I know you guys know very well. Yep. Very well. Yep. And we went through their training, we went through the titanium level so we invested in ourselves and we went through that full training and that's basically how the transition is. Now we're just maintaining the rental side. We eventually plan for that, either bring a A property manager on board to manage the rentals down the road, but we're pretty much Moving all towards the note side is what we're doing at this point in time

Rick Allen:

Is the plan to still keep those rentals?

Jay Redding:

Or is it is right now? Yes, it is now. I love that. I'm not Anti rental like some people are okay They're just different. I believe there are some strengths and weaknesses on both notes as well as on the rental side. The nice thing that we found is that we can adjust very rapidly to on the rental side with an inflationary market that's taking place. Whereas with notes, little slower process. You can't hold on nearly as long. You have to account for that. Yeah, definitely. But the notes are certainly, yeah, certainly much easier to manage than than the rentals. Definitely easier to manage. We've got good, yes and we've got good, we self manage, right now, but we got good systems and processes in place mainly because I learned from all the people who weren't doing it okay, locally, okay, to be honest and put our systems and processes in place in things flow pretty well and we don't have much debt on our rentals anymore. So that's great as well. Are our rentals

Brett Burky:

Local

Jay Redding:

to you? Specifically designed that way. They're all within 30 minutes of our office and all 40 of them. Wow. That's cool. So we have the same crew that manages everything if we got to do a rehab or anything like that. The long term goal, some of the lower end things we will probably sell off, sell or finance those or just sell them off over time. But our upper end ones, we plan on hanging on to those. We'll probably reduce in number or flip out a lower end for a better. We've done that a couple times already. We'll flip out the lower end and we've sold that, we've sold that out for cash and then reinvest that into an upper end, much better quality and much better. But the pricing right now doesn't support that, unless we just come across an unbelievably great deal. And once in a while you do that, and if that's the case, we'll jump at that.

Brett Burky:

Where are you out of again? In the country?

Jay Redding:

Oh, we're based out of Fort Wayne, Indiana. That's right, I knew you were up

Brett Burky:

there. Okay, I knew you were up north somewhere. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. That's really cool. And then the first note, how'd that go? So

Rick Allen:

yeah, so you met, when did you sign on with Eddyspeed?

Jay Redding:

2000, I think it was 2019. Okay. 2019. At the end of November 2019, something, I think, may have started. Man,

Rick Allen:

that was about to be an interesting time.

Jay Redding:

Yes. We invest both in performing and non performing. We've already done a non performing and it did well although we got caught during the whole COVID time, what should have been about a 60, 90 day turnaround ended up being a nine month turnaround just because all the cut, all the courts shut down. That's what it basically was here. And it was, that one was local to us. So it was real simple. Yeah. Wow.

Brett Burky:

And after you got, after you went through the training in 2019, was your first note purchased in

Jay Redding:

2020? What month? It was. It was. I didn't take long. Actually, I had to go back and look at the numbers and all the details. We purchased this one in 1 21 of 2020. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my

Rick Allen:

gosh. Oh, my gosh. I'm

Jay Redding:

squirming in my seat with the time frame. It was a seller finance note. That's what it was. The seller was living in Florida. It was 180 month term. That's what it was. And we bought it with 104 remaining. Alright, so it had good seasoning on it, good pay history, honestly, the pay history on it was perfect. That's perfect. It had never been late. So it's okay. We bought it with a little over 11% gross yield, 11. 05% was the gross yield. Nice. UPB at the time was 44, 707. 90 and we purchased it for 38, 975. The interest, the face the face amount interest was 7. 5%. And the BPO is at 78. 9, it's up in Jarmstown, New York, and so RITB was only about 49%. So we had good protection on it.

Brett Burky:

Yeah. Did they at all falter once March, April, May, or did they just

Jay Redding:

keep paying? No, they pay, they have continued to pay perfectly. That's awesome. Absolutely perfect. We held on to it for 14 months, that's what we did. And we collected 5, let's see, 549 was our net, alright. So we collected that on a monthly basis. We held on to it for 14 months and then we hypothec, we did our first hypothecation. Nice. Okay. Alright. There was 90, 90 payments left and we found a local investor that we borrowed it. At that time we were into it at 31, 288 and we borrowed 30, 000 at 6% and we got the balance of our money that we were into it in the first year and it's been paying us 134 a month ever since. Nice. Great. Just like clockwork. And we have no money in the deal. For me... Now, obviously we've gotten better, we don't do them that small, but at that time, as far as the monthly spread, but at that time, that was a proof of concept to me. Sure. Yeah, this will work, that's the first note, it's paid well it's continued to pay well, and I feel like we did all the things right as we should have in that respect. Yeah. I'm anticipating. Yeah. Absolutely. Eddie's got a,

Rick Allen:

Eddie's got a saying. He's make sure you can just get the race car around the track the first time. You ain't looking to set any records. You're just making sure you don't wreck it. If you do that, if you do that, you're good. The next one, you'll get better at it.

Jay Redding:

Now we do the same type of thing, but we don't do anything less than 200 and between 200 and 500 typically is what we are, which is a nice price range for us. So that's I hope Eddie doesn't mind that I dated my impression. No, I Eddie ism there. Yeah, he's

Rick Allen:

got a lot. So well, that's cool. That's fascinating, man. You're

Jay Redding:

doing your

Rick Allen:

First deal and you've already first of all, you bought it at a time that would have been like, Whoa, Nelly! Yeah, I remember that. And then, But then you've done a hypothecation on it, it's paying you. And, was that deal something you marketed for, or you you found it on NotesDirect,

Jay Redding:

or where'd you find it? It was we purchased it on NotesDirect. Yeah. That's what we did.

Brett Burky:

How'd you learn about the hypothecation method? That seems pretty,

Jay Redding:

That's through NoteSchool. Oh, you have it. Hypothecation, yeah, through hypothecation or partials. Partials. We like the hy, we like the hypothecation. model a little better than the partial right now mainly because we're still growing and building out our company and we want the monthly cash flow. That's a very important. In my IRAs, I've done I've gotten rid of all my rentals in my IRAs and those are all notes now. I would partial out of my IRAs and we will, we'll partial probably some down the road. But as we're in that growth phase and building out, we gotta have cash flow to be able to support the growth and those types of things, so that's what we're doing. Do you

Rick Allen:

do you find the hypothecation right now, it becomes more expensive with the rise in the rates?

Jay Redding:

Yes. Yeah, I figured that would be. We're paying out 8% now is what we're paying. And. All right. As far as our lender.

Rick Allen:

20 months ago, you were getting it at 14% or you're at a 6%.

Jay Redding:

6, at 6%. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so now we're going to be looking at, if we're buying we're looking at, a deeper discount to be able to get in that 12 and a half, 13 and a half, 14 yield to get our spread and make sure that we, the Delta is good in there is what

Rick Allen:

we're looking at. So 13, yeah, that's, that makes sense. Okay.

Brett Burky:

How long after the first one did

Jay Redding:

you buy your second one? That was the NPL that came right after that. And that was local to us. And I actually purchased, I purchased that through SN, through David Polio. David Polio, okay. And, yeah literally that one's, that was local to us. We did, I was able to look in the court case where everything stood, alright, and just filed the whole court case. It was literally already foreclosed on and just ready to go to sheriff's sale. It should have only took about 60 days. We got it. And then all the courts shut down. So we're just sitting here twiddling thumb, until we got through that. I'm still working on one

Rick Allen:

right now that we were getting

Jay Redding:

judgment in April

Rick Allen:

of 2020. And it was, it's in Cook County.

Jay Redding:

Oh, Illinois. Oh my gosh,

Rick Allen:

yes. And it's still, it went through foreclosure. I'm supposed to have the foreclosure and everything done and approved on the 30th. The 31st of this month, but it's just been, it's been in like quicksand and sticky mud trying to get this thing through. And Cook County will, they will find every reason not to push it through. That sucks. That's terrible. That sucks.

Jay Redding:

Yeah I'm not a big fan of Illinois. No, not

Rick Allen:

at all. Yeah, I will, I'll never buy another asset in that state ever. Whether it's real estate or it's the notes, the taxes will get you, just the county will get you. They're just, they're going to nickel and dime you from the minute you cross the state line until the time you leave and they smack you on the butt on the way out the door. They're going to take every

Jay Redding:

dime they can get. So with the

Brett Burky:

with your first note purchase, what's like some of the, like a lesson you would like for people that are looking for their first note purchase? What's some of the stuff you would say?

Jay Redding:

Do your homework. Alright, do your due diligence. You've got to do your due diligence. We actually have created a checklist of things that we go through that for both performing as well as non performing because there's 20, 30 different items that you need to be going through to make sure that you've got all your bases covered. And even then, something might sneak in there that you're not aware of but we try to get everything covered. And that helps us from a processing standpoint to make sure that we don't forget something because it's a check the box going down the list type of thing. Is that

Rick Allen:

your own internal document or did you get it from note

Jay Redding:

school or? No, that's our own internal document. So that was our own journal that we created that

Rick Allen:

we wanted to do. What's that? I can see the comments in this podcast, YouTube channel already. Hey, can you share that? Can you share your checklist? Can you please send that over to Brett and Rick and see if Jay will give us that?

Jay Redding:

Yeah. The thing is this, I'll say, You need to create your own in the reason being. You guys invest differently than I invest. That's right. So what I'm looking for and what I want to make sure that I protect for is, I mean we all have your basics, okay, but, my ITV, my investment to value, or how fast I want to recoup our capital back is different than what you guys are, okay? That's smart. Yeah, so every investor is different and those are part of the processes that we put down that we run the numbers through to see if a note is going to fit what our buy box is that we want for what we're trying to accomplish. And I would say as a new investor. What's your end game? No, what are you going to do with it? What's, not, just because you buy one, great! Okay, now what? Alright. And you really need to know

Rick Allen:

before you're going into it. I, we, I always tell people you should know what's your goal before you buy the note. It should be like, here's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to, it's simple as if I'm trying to build cash flow, probably an NPL is not the way to go.

Jay Redding:

Yeah. Yeah, let's see I've built out a couple things that, we're basically looking at using the hypothecation model. So we're looking at, all right, what's our net yield? What's our spread here? Can this, will this give us our cash flow if we need to leave a little money in the deal? How fast do we get that back so that we can basically recapitalize and go deploy it again? Okay. On the NPL side, I've got some private lenders who actually, since we have some of the rentals this is for their comfort level, okay, because I've got some of our rentals that are actually a fair number of them that are free and clear, I'll use that as collateral to secure the money with the private lender to be able to go and do the NPL with a note that's going to be at least two years in length, but I have the ability to pay off at any time.

Brett Burky:

Wow, that's smart. So you're leveraging

Jay Redding:

the rental before the, okay. Yeah, and the interest accrues, I don't pay anything until the property sells or we get it. That's how we structure it.

Rick Allen:

Interesting. There you

Brett Burky:

go. Huh, any other questions?

Rick Allen:

No, it's fascinating stuff. Appreciate it. Thank you for being a user on paper stack, and then thank you for coming on here and sharing your experiences. Definitely interesting. It's definitely

Brett Burky:

interesting, the time we, when you got started, and you must have thick skin, because I know that time scared a lot of people, because I remember just talking to people on the phone at that time, and they were, a lot of people were unsure of the

Rick Allen:

future. Oh my gosh.

Jay Redding:

You know what? Ignorance is bliss. Let's put it that way. I didn't know what I didn't know at that time. That's it.

Rick Allen:

That's it. You don't know what you don't know. It's

Jay Redding:

like heaven. That's been a huge opportunity. And that first one was in New York. I'm not sure that I would be doing it. Unfortunately, it was paid perfectly. So I'm, I'm not sure that I'd be going tapping the well again in New York for that's near at this stage of the game, where we're at right now. But so far it's, we're anticipating early payoff on it, so hopefully cause they've been inquiring as to, with the servicer what's their unpaid, they're starting to inquire as far as how close they are to having it paid off and everything, so I'm thinking we're gonna get a lump sum somewhere down the road here. That'd be nice. That'd be

Brett Burky:

fantastic, yeah. That'd be nice.

Jay Redding:

Yeah, which boosts our yields even better. We like that too. There you go.

Brett Burky:

We can see you next at Node Expo in November?

Jay Redding:

Perfect. Yep, we'll be there. We will certainly be there. Hopefully, I have a couple case studies that I hope to put into that competition contest that NETI always puts together for the Node School people. We'll see if If we get in there, I've been a finalist, but I've never won it. I've been a finalist two or three times, but I've never won it, so we'll see. Did you win it? You won it once.

Rick Allen:

No, I didn't win it. I actually didn't even get to present it because we were, we came in late. And Kevin Shortell presented it. Which, I don't know how I didn't win that one. That one was a home run deal.

Brett Burky:

Yeah, I remember that

Rick Allen:

one. Yeah, we got, we purchased one. I think it was like 90 grand in debt. And this was 2013.

Jay Redding:

And we

Rick Allen:

bought it for, I want to say it was 15 grand. And the property was worth probably 40 grand or 35 grand. And the lady ended up making a payment of 4, 000 to us. to do a loan mod. We did a loan mod and put her on a a trial plan and she got to within two payments of her trial plan completing and stopped making payments.

Jay Redding:

Oh my gosh. And then went

Rick Allen:

and got hard money, or not hard money, got hardest hit fund and wound up getting something like 35 or 40 grand in past due money to catch her up. We ended up getting all of that, and then we had a perfor, we had a perfor, and they paid the next 24 months for her monthly on what was at that point like a 75, 000, 78, 000 loan. Wow. And then we ended up turning around and selling that for 35, which had I known anything, done any of like. Partial or hypothecation, I'd still have that loan, but it was just we, we killed it on that deal just

Jay Redding:

between I gotta say, that's a home, that is a home run.

Rick Allen:

And it's one of those things where you're like, wow, we, we made back all of our money. Plus, and then we're in the deal for nothing. That's nice. Yeah, so that's one where, hindsight 2020, you keep that one in your back pocket and just say, that's enough right now, but we just sold it. And that was fairly early on. And so that, that's when I submitted, but I couldn't even pitch it because we were our plane arrived later. And I was like, man I told

Jay Redding:

Kevin Shortell,

Rick Allen:

I'm like, How bad of a salesman are you that you couldn't get that one to win? I was like, anybody could have made that one a winner.

Jay Redding:

Oh, that's funny. I love infinite returns. I think you guys do too. I love it when it breaks the calculator.

Rick Allen:

That's my favorite thing, when it's just error and I'm like, nope, that's not an error, that means we won.

Jay Redding:

That's right, it's enough. As Eddie says, it's enough. It's enough,

Rick Allen:

Jay, hey, we really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. To all you guys out there, thanks for listening to the Paperstack Podcast. We've got some exciting ones coming up following Jay Redding. Bob Repass is coming in. Troy Fullwood. Who else? Oh, we have a list. We got a list. Hey, you can, when you see Bob again, you say, yeah, I was on the podcast before you were, Bob. Should be good. Good seeing you, man. We look forward to seeing you in November, Paperstack Podcast. We are done. Catch you on the next

Jay Redding:

episode. See ya. All right. Thanks. Thanks for having me, guys. I appreciate it. All right. Good seeing you. See ya.

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Rick Allen

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