Advocacy Talks Episode 10 - The essential role of Audio Description.

In this episode we talk to Dr Lucia Pintado Gutierrez following the publication of her report The Challenges of Audio Description in Ireland: Bridging Education, Users and Industry (ADESI). This research examines the current provision of audio description services in Ireland across media, theatre, museums and sport and how this could be improved.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Advocacy Talk, a podcast from the Advocacy Team at Vision Ireland. Here's what's coming up on this episode.

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SPEAKER_02 0:10

It makes me think whether it it should be I don't know whether compulsory or a good idea to train those workers within these premises and make them aware of different types of accessibility and what they mean. Because it it really is very basic when you're looking for a service that is supposed to be offered to you. But you may know available because they're not able to explain that this is actually the case.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

And now here's Madeline McNamara.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Hello everybody and welcome to Advocacy Talks and thank you so much for tuning in today. We're really delighted to have you. On our last episode of Podvocacy Talks, I spoke to Jamie Miller, who was the policy officer in Vision Island, and it was all about budgets 2026. So if you missed that and there's anything you'd like to know about the budget and how it affects you, please do listen back to that. Well, today uh we're talking all about audio description and how it plays such an important role in making all forms of entertainment, whether that be television, cinema, and even sporting events, more accessible for people who are blind or vision impaired. So to help me discuss that today, I'm joined by Dr. Lucia Pintado Gutierrez, who is an assistant professor at the School of Applied Languages and Intercultural Studies in Dublin City University. So, Lucia, you're very welcome to Advocacy Talks.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Thank you so much, Madeleine. Uh you are so kind to um to invite me to be part of your podcast, of your series of podcasts. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

You're very welcome. And the reason we've asked you to sort of talk to us about this is because you're an expert in the area of audio description, um, having just had a report published, um, which is called The Challenges of Audio Description in Ireland, bridging education, users, and industry. So, you know, a lot, a lot in that title and a lot for us to sort of talk about to today. But I thought before we kind of delved into the report, it might just be really interesting to sort of just say, you know, maybe get you to tell us what is audio description. It may seem obvious, but I think for anyone who's not not used it or come across it yet, what what is it, what does it mean? What is it?

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Well, audio description in short is a translation of the visuals into words that will help um blind or uh visually impaired people to know what is happening, whether it's in a screen or in a live uh act, such as you know, it could be like sport, opera, cinema, museum, um, but also screen. So that that is put in short. Um overall it's a much more complex um service which is offered in more or less measure um across the different, you know, um, across different parts of the society and depending on what countries in one way or another. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

So really, I mean, it's as you say, I I I only kind of started using audio description myself not that not too long ago, a few years ago now. And I I guess I was always thought, oh, I can see enough, I don't need, you know, thinking of it in terms of television. Oh, I don't I don't need that, you know, I can see enough. And came across it by accident. And then was astonished actually as to the level of detail that I was actually missing uh without it. So it was a real it excuse the pun, it was a real eye-opener um, you know, for me. And now I find I don't want to watch anything really without it because it makes such a difference. But uh, you know, we're aware that there isn't enough of it. So I guess is that probably why you have done, you know, this report, and maybe you can tell us about the report that you undertook. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

So audiodescription is a service, as I was mentioning before, uh, that people can be more or less familiar with or more or less aware of. Um I originally come from Spain, I've been based in Ireland for almost 25 years within academia, and I work very closely with colleagues in Spain in academia as well. And some of those colleagues are experts in audiovisual translation, ABT, and within Spain and various European countries, audio description is actually a service which is researched under the field of ABT, audiovisual translation. And so when working with them across a series of areas, it just dawned on me that number one, there isn't all that many programs in translation and interpreting in Ireland, and number two, that most of the professional or the trained undergraduate um students that were actually going to be working on that field in Spain, but also in many other areas or countries in Europe, um, had been studying translation and interpreting, which is a much more spread out course and popular, by the way. Um, so that's when audio description kind of caught my interest. It's funny because um I would have always been aware of um accessibility issues. My grandfather was deaf, not fully deaf, but he had very he, you know, he had about 20% um of hearing, and I was always very aware of that side of things. And this kind of brought me back to him and and my memories of you know how we didn't really pay attention to him uh because he did mix and mingle very well with everybody. He was a very um warm person, um, and everybody kind of loved him. But then kind of this drove me back to him, and I started to work with colleagues in Spain trying to see uh what are the descriptions, what the status was here in Ireland, and see how I could bring it a little bit more into the classrooms so students could actually try to think that they are experts in communication when they study um degrees such as translation um studies or when they do languages. But as part of those uh uh as being expert linguists and expert in communication, they did not uh envisage that perhaps it could be this could be um a field that they could divorce their professional interest into.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

So I guess we're kind of thinking then that audio description is a form of translation because it's translating the visual into the audio. Would that be kind of where you're thinking of this?

SPEAKER_02 7:02

You know this exactly, exactly. Within the field of uh translation studies, um it's that this is what is it's called like a type of translation, which is uh intersemiotic. So it's a translation across different systems, as you rightly say, between the visual and the and and and and and the non-visual, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Okay. So would would, I mean obviously there are people working in audio description at the moment, and and where would they have got their training? Would it have been on courses like yours that they would have their training at the moment, or is it done somewhere else?

SPEAKER_02 7:38

It's funny that you should say that because the only way I could embed this area of audio description was within um one course that I I I would I would have been teaching for a long time for final year students doing translation and advanced language. So what I did is I I tried to follow a very well-known stream in academia within areas such as you know, uh Spain, which is um audiovisual translation uh uh applied to the didactics of language. So I tried my that my students would play a little bit around with audio description and they would produce an audio description in Spanish. And that's yeah, yes, and it's it's actually wonderful. Um that was kind of the start of me trying to see what is out there and who teaches what. Yeah. And this is what the study approaches. So basically, in my uh classes of audiodescription, I would have typically invited a blind or visually impaired person to discuss with my students um ways and perceptions and conceptualizations around audio description, because that's something that they would have not uh thought about. Um so what the study tried to do, or what I tried to do through my study, which I thought would be much more simpler than it actually became, it became a much more bigger study than I initially envisaged. Yeah. Was there any course offered in higher education in relation to audiodescription? But also, what was the status in in the industry? Was the industry specifically the industry of entertainment, were they offering much as in many services of audio description? And finally, were those users, so blind or visually impaired users, aware of the services that were being offered or that are being offered? Um and the results were quite staggering, uh not surprising, not surprising, unfortunately, but uh but but but quite staggering in that audio description becomes vital in that is there any standard, is there any centralized provision uh across you know either the media sector the media sectors or or or any other sectors uh within the arts or or beyond within, you know, say for example um sports. So the results show that this requires a coordinated strategic national effort, because as things are at the moment within the field of audio description, it is a very, very fragmented reality. Um so the provision is inconsistent.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Um and so And there isn't really any legislation that does cover it from what from reading your report. You know, you mentioned a few different sort of legislations, but none of them is sort of very clearly covering it, uh, is it? I mean, the online safety and and media regulation or something act, I think, was one of them, which maybe did talk about it. You know, the EAA has sort of standards for making you know digit the digital world accessible, but it's it was hard to pin down from from what I could read that you know to legislation legislatively it's quite poor in terms of ensuring that these services are available. Would that be correct?

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Is it's very difficult in the one hand because most of the regulations are coming from Europe. Yeah. And as European regulations, they are quite um vague when determining how each of the countries um of the European members are to implement them. So in many cases, it depends on each of the European members to determine how is how these these measures or these regulations are going to be implemented. Now, this is um improving, and with the with the new legislation in 2025, um there is great advances. Yeah. But if you look at the regulations and you compare on how the industry of their understanding of the regulations, the funding that they have um allocated to implement such regulations, and the provision that they can actually offer. So everything it so everything becomes quite complex.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah. I mean, I was looking, you know, for for television. I know you know RTE would have uh, you know, uh an amount, a percentage that they have to provide, so I think it's 10% at the moment, which they have exceeded. So, you know, RTE one and two is what 13 and 0.8% or something of their programs are, and RTE junior is 15%. So they have gone over their sort of required amounts, but it but at least it's something, at least there's some kind of thing. But in terms of the provision in cinemas or in you know theaters or uh you know museums and sporting events, is there any kind of um you know percentage that they anyone needs to get to or or not? I don't get I don't think there is.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

But I don't think there is. I I think that's a very tricky question, Madeline. Um I actually have to say that Commission Amon, as the regulators for media accessibility, are doing a great job. I mean, they are revisiting the regulations uh very closely. They're looking at there is a certain certain guidelines um that have to be complied with. Um the quotas have been exceeded, as you well, as you were well mentioning before. So RT Jr. is you know um now at 15%, when Ofcom, the regulator in the UK, is complying with just over 20%. So we are getting there, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

It's definitely improving.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Definitely improving, and and that is great. The problem is that media accessibility is in a very different position to live um events. Um, within theater or arts, say theatre, museums, galleries, um it's a very different reality. Because there is no regulator really for the moment that is.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

And I guess it's such a fragmented kind of industry. Sorry to cut you over you there, but it's it's in the sense that in the television sort of there's a big the big organization, RTE or Virgin Media or or whoever. Whereas in sort of theatre and museums, it can often be, you know, it's one theatre here or there, not necessarily uh owned by multiple people. I guess cinema is a different case where they potentially they should be, because you know, they would have multiple cinemas across, you know, one company might have quite a number of cinemas. But it some it I can see how it makes it more difficult though with something like theatre or museums um to do.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

And as you say, yeah, it's it's it's a very interesting uh so Adessi became a very interesting kind of project because I was able to knock on doors and actually people opened doors for me. So I would have been in contact with uh Oran uh O'Neill in uh in RT. I would have been working with uh with uh Commissioner Mon as well, uh Nev McCall, but I've also been working closely with Podrik Notton, uh who's the executive director in uh in uh Arts Disability Ireland. And Podrick describes a very fragmented and very complex reality in which, depending on the budget allocated, if there is any budget allocated, or if anybody um decides to uh require some money or require some budget uh allocated for the description, it's very difficult. It's very difficult the fact that um Dublin is or seems to be like a central hub. But beyond Dublin, arts become something way less accessible because it's simply very difficult to implement things. Going back to your questions, if we're thinking of cinemas, when films are produced, they do have an audio description, but these rights are not always both with them. Um so interestingly, I try to reach out to in as much sectors of the industry of entertainment as possible, including cinema. And if I am correct, not one cinema got back to us.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Really? Yeah, that's shocking, isn't it? And and you know, as you say, there are so many cinemas, and uh disappointingly, uh one of my local cinemas a good number of years ago now they did a whole total revamp and uh you know took a long, long time. But not all of the screens have the facility for audio description even in them. So not only you know, you're very restricted, so that if a film is showing in a s in one of its screens that doesn't have the audio description, then there's no audio description. And you just wonder why at that point, when that big refurbishment was done, was audio description not put into all of the screens? You know, and should that not be a requirement then, you know, that if you're i i it's like everything, retrofitting is always more challenging. But if if there are changes being done, and maybe that would come under the European Accessibility Act, maybe if they did the refurbishment now, maybe it would have to, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Hopefully, um some I remember a few cases within the uh, you know, blind or visually impaired participants in this study would have mentioned that they actually bought a TV that was supposed to play audio description, but when they tried to do so, it wasn't working for them. Yeah, it was as basic as that that they were already looking for the service, and when they bought the device, it wasn't working. They were unable to use it.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

But very disappointing, as you say, and uh but I think a lot of the time it's because the audio description, as you say, on television it's coming from whether it's you know your terrestrial television like RTE and and and BBC and all that, but it's also on the Netflix. But whether how your television is enabled to access that is a different matter as well. Very technical, I think, the whole area, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 18:49

You know that that's it. You have the social part in which you want to bring you know services and make them available to all the citizens, but then you have the technical, um the technical part that is is is not always kind of aligned with the with the rest of of the needs to implement these accessible services.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

But I think one of the other big aspects of the report, you know, which we which we talked briefly about was about the service users and the and the fact that the awareness levels amongst people who are blind of vision impaired was quite low, would that be right? Of the availability of audio description.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Well, the the the overall feeling was that it was a very welcome service that there wasn't enough and where there were services offered, they were not always aware that that was the case. Yeah. So that kind of brings in another aspect to audio description, which is the responsibility for those those offering the services to actually make the end users aware that this is being the case. It's easy enough to do it within the screen. It happens frequently uh when you hear, you know, this um this program is obviously described and so on. It's not the case when this is done in other um supports. If if you think of galleries, cinema, and so on. It seems to be like a word of mouth. And I wonder if stronger campaigns uh coming from regulators or even the state should step in and and and help people become aware of what services are offered.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Very very much so, and and I think it is a tricky one because often it you know the the the problem for people who are blind and vision impaired is it's the way that we need to be told about something. There's no point in putting a sign up in the cinema that there's audio description because we can't see it. You know, so it has to be an audio announcement or uh in that way, or or through, you know, the various newsletters or or things, but people have to have signed up for those in order to get that relevant information. So I think it is a tricky one, you know, but it's I guess at the core of it, if if the if the staff who work in the various um places, whether it be cinemas or or museums or or whatever, don't know about it themselves, which can be the case at times, then they can't promote it to their to the people coming, you know, if they're aware that someone comes in the door, it should if they you know see that someone has low vision, then if their service is available, you would hope that they would offer that. And and I I'd be interested to know, you know, is that happening?

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Um I was just going to say, uh, you'd be surprised, but probably you're not surprised, uh Madeleine, to the amount of people around, you know, working around theater, cinemas, and so on, that when you mention accessibility for the blind and visually impaired, they think of subtitles. Really? They think of toppings. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Well yeah, so even even like the the the you know, the kind of yeah, understanding of what it means.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

I think I was actually offered when I was I was did go to an audio-described theatre um performance at one time, and sort of going in and asking, and even though it was a special uh performance with the audio description, and you had to be very which one you know they were trying to give you, you know, it's like, yeah, no, the audio description.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it it makes me it makes me think whether it it should be um, I don't know whether compulsory or a good idea to train those uh workers within these premises um and make them aware of the different type or the different types of accessibility uh and what they mean. Because it it really is very basic when you're looking for a service that is supposed to be offered to you, but you may know available because they're not able to explain that this is actually the case.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah. Do you know? No, absolutely. And that and that is the key of so much, you know, core of of so much of what we need is the training um and the disability awareness training of you know staff in all sorts of businesses. You know, and and now the support, the government supports are there to provide that. Um so if you know, if businesses do want to have training for their employees, it there there are uh funds available to do that. So, you know, we really do hope that people do sort of take that on board and and avail of those, and it would make such a difference to people. Because, you know, audio discussion, as I was saying at the beginning, it really makes such a difference. It kind of, you know, for me, I was able was able to watch television say, but relied heavily on someone, you know, who I was with, you know, filling in the gaps. And now when I watch television, they don't have they don't have to do that. They can enjoy it more now because they're not having to constantly try to inform me of of the what's happening in an action scene or or or whatever. Um so and possibly you enjoy better as well, don't you? Oh, definitely, definitely. Because you're not having to constantly say what's happening, what's happening, who, who's who's talking, or you know, who's winning the fight, or you know, and and even for me, which I find interesting, one of the nice things, it depends on what you're watching, because obviously the audio description can only come in at the times when there's not dialogue. Um, but sometimes it's very interesting to be told the facial expressions of people, you know, which I would completely miss. You can tell if someone's crying, maybe, or if they're very much, you know, really, really smiling or they're laughing. But the the sort of more subtle facial expressions, um, I would completely, you know, miss. And and with audio description, I can can get that. Um so it makes a very much a big a big difference.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

So I really uh there is a big debate in academia um surrounding the fact whether audio descriptions should be subjective or should be um objective, you know, the tone of the of the voice and how much meaning the tone may have or may not have. Um the quality of audio description around trainees, but also required from the industry, sometimes leaving the uh the user a bit aside. So, yeah, it's really interesting. It's a really interesting field, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

It really is. And I get the sense that it's one of those things that's that there are you know you're not gonna get consensus probably because I think people would like different things. I mean, personally, I I there are sometimes when you're watching something, maybe a drama programme or something, and the audio description, it's almost it almost makes it like like uh reading a book that you're getting that contact, you're getting the scenery, you know, the the feeling, the surroundings, and and it, you know, it's it's lovely. Um, but then other times I I was watching something recently and it was so annoying because it kept saying, such, you know, the person's such and such speaking. And you think I know who's speaking, I can tell by the voice who's speaking. You know, it's good when the person is introduced initially, so that you know, you know, John uh Johnny's gone up to the the door or whatever. But then when that person speaks, you know that's them. You know what's so I think it's it's it's trying to find the balance, I think, isn't it, for people? And uh and what what works for the majority of people, I suppose, is gonna be the thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 26:24

But but then you have like um you know different types of programs for adults, and then you have kids, uh, which may require uh or who require actually a very different type of audio description. With my students, I work on on cartoons, and it's amazing the amount of observations and different ideas that come through, not only from describing what to describe, but also the tone of the voice uh that you know may enthuse a key to stay in front of the TV and actually watch the same cartoons that the rest of the of their friends are are watching.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

That's very interesting, actually. Yeah, the the different the different tone and engagement that's needed for the for the different things. But as you say, that's television, and we won't go on too much more, but um a very different experience for something like a museum, I think, or a theatre. Um you know, and uh and I guess one of the challenges for theatre is that it's having to be done live. So therefore the cost is more because you're having to actually you can't kind of pre-record that. It has to be done at the time, doesn't it? It's not like a television thing. Once the audio description has been recorded to fit that, it can be you know used obviously so many times. Whereas uh for theatre it's it's a person having to be there doing it at the time. So that that poses its challenges, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 27:44

With with theaters, there's an interesting um uh aspect, Madeline, which is that of the torch tours, in which you know, before the the show starts, um some attendees might be able to go and touch the um the clothes that are being going to be worn to kind of like have a feeling or of what the stage may be like and so on. So there is kind of complementary aspects uh within theater, within museums as well. They're starting, I I know in the Hunt Museum in Limerick, they were starting to reproduce certain objects um that you know the blind or visually impaired could actually touch and get a feel of what they were being described, um, that typically you cannot touch because they are you know behind a glass or anything like that. And if you think of uh of live um audio description, uh if we go to football, for instance, the bohemians are um uh a team that have implemented audiodescriptions since 2019-2020 uh with James. So uh it's a totally different experience. So audiodescription, you know, it just has so many doors to open.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Absolutely. Yeah, no, they're both great examples in the Hump Museum. I've heard so much about that because quite a number of our service users were involved in the project um, you know, happening there. And it just really uh an amazing what work they've been doing. I think what they what they did, if I'm if I'm right, is they made 3D models of some of the objects so that people could actually experience, you know, to actually touch them without having to touch the rear, you know, if it was a delicate item or whatever, they could they could uh still get the sense of what it what it was. So yeah, there are so many different avenues and ways that things can be made accessible. And it's it is great to to see that in increasing and improving all the time. But thank you so much. I mean, hopefully, you know, I know your report is is being officially launched in February, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 29:45

That's correct, yeah. So uh there will be more information about the exact date and the venue which will be in DCU. If anybody is interested in attending, it'll be an open event, so just contact me.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Oh, fantastic. Well, I mean, I'm just hoping that the people who need to know about it to in order to maybe, you know, make the changes that we need, we'll be there and get to obviously read the report and and and take on board all of your recommendations and make it uh so much so much more fulfilling and uh inclusive world for all of us which would be which would be fantastic. So thank you so much for for for talking to me today. It's been it's been really fascinating to learn all about it.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

So look Madeleine my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

You're very very welcome. And uh just to say to everybody if you know if you have anything that you need any support from Vision Island you can always find us at our website at www.vi.ie or you can call our info line on 1-800-911250.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

But look until next time we'll see you then bye bye Thanks for listening to Advocacy Talks to get in touch with our advocacy team send us an email to campaigns atvi.ie or why not join one of our local advocacy networks where you can work together with others to solve some of the biggest problems facing blind and partially sighted people in Ireland. Thanks for listening and see you next time