Talking Technology with V I Labs
This podcast is focused on technology that supports people who are blind and visually impaired. Our panel of IT Trainers & guest panelists discuss all the latest in mainstream and inclusive technology innovations in a fun and informative manner. V I Labs is the technology function within Vision Ireland. Vision Ireland is the national sight loss agency in Ireland. V I Labs provide technology assessments and training for all our service users. We are a not for profit charity, which offers support and services to people of all ages who are experiencing difficulties with their eyesight. Visit www.vi.ie to discover more about our technology services and other range of services Vision Ireland provide
Talking Technology with V I Labs
Talking Technology with V I Labs Episode 93 - Glide not coming to Europe for the foreseeable future
On this extra episode of Talking Technology, we only have one topic on the agenda.
Glidance, makers of the new glide mobility aid, have announced that the product won’t be coming to Europe at launch, and all European customers are being refunded.
We speak to CEO Amos Miller to ask why they made the decision they did, what this means for the future of glide, and how it will impact those who purchase glide legitimately in the launch countries of the US, UK, and Canada.
We also catch up with Kevin Kelly, Vision Ireland’s head of policies, partnerships, and external affairs, to get his reaction to the news. He tells us how he feels personally and how Vision Ireland is responding.
Have you got thoughts to share? Send us a voice note to join the conversation now. The number you need is +353 86 199 0011.
0:00 Intro
2:59 The all important contact details
3:55 David and Joe’s initial reaction to the news on Glide
7:35 Glidance CEO Amos Miller tells us what’s going on and why
43:51 Kevin Kelly discusses Vision Ireland’s response
55:09 Outro
This Vision Ireland podcast contains chapter markers. If you want to skip the intro or a topic you don't like, you can use chapter markers to do so. Chapter markers are only supported in some podcast apps. Enjoy the show. Welcome to Talking Technology with V.I. Labs. At V.I. Labs, we believe technology is the single greatest enabler for people with sight loss and all disabilities. If you're looking for the latest news and conversation on tech from a more accessible perspective, you've come to the right place. Yes, indeed, you have. Hello, gang. Welcome in to Talking Technology episode number 93. Yes, we are at 93 on a Friday, another Friday extra episode. We've just stopped calling these extra at this point because, you know, when you do so many extra episodes, it's hardly worth calling them extra because they stop becoming extra. But there you go. Welcome in to Talking Technology episode 93, where today we have one topic and one topic alone to address. And that is the elephant in the room that is Glide. Glide is well, Glide is no longer gliding to Europe, basically. Glide have announced or rather Glidance, the parent company that are making Glide, have announced that they will not be coming to Europe for the foreseeable future. And anyone who had preordered Glide from Europe are being issued with refunds. They'll keep their place in the queue for when Glide does eventually arrive in in Ireland and Europe. But they are being refunded as of now and no date has been given for a point that Glide will come to Europe. It will launch in the US, Canada and UK first, but is not coming to Europe for the foreseeable future. We'll be catching up with Amos Miller to discuss all that and more in just a minute. He'll be telling us their decisions around that, why they made the decision that they did, and also we'll chat a little bit about the current state of Glide. That's coming up in just a minute. And we'll also catch up with Kevin Kelly. Kevin is the head of partnerships and policy at Vision Ireland and he will be sharing the perspective of Vision Ireland on these new delays from Glide as well. But before we dive into that, a reminder that we'd really love to hear your perspectives on this. We know we have many people come to the wave finding centre not that long ago, back in June, to try out Glide. There was a lot of positive reactions that day and a lot of people were really enthusiastic about Glide. But how are you feeling about it now that it's been delayed? How are you kind of finding that whole experience? We'd love to hear your perspective either with a WhatsApp voice note or an email. And here is how you can get in touch with us. So if you would like to join the conversation and you want to tell us your feelings on how this Glide delay impacts you, would you have been a Glide user? Would you have been interested or indeed had you pre-ordered one? Are you getting a refund and how do you feel about it? Do let us know. If you want to send us a message on WhatsApp, the number you need is 086-199-0011. That's 086-199-0011. Remember, if you were sending a voice message, that's not a call. You want to use the voice message button. It's labelled with voiceover at the bottom right hand corner of your screen. If you would prefer to do things the good old fashioned way, you can also send us an email if you'd like. The email address there is content at vi.ie. So whether you would like to send us an email or indeed a WhatsApp voice note, we would love to hear from you. Content at vi.ie or 086-199-0011 on WhatsApp. Right then, to get his reactions before we jump over to Amos to chat about the Glide delays, I do want to briefly have a quick chat with our Manning Kilkenny, Mr. Joe Lonergan. Joe, how are you? Hi David, I'm good, thank you. So Joe, Glide delayed in Europe, not coming to Europe for the foreseeable future. What's your reaction to this? Yeah, delayed isn't even a word I'd use. Not coming for the foreseeable future doesn't sound good at all. I'm very disappointed actually to hear this, especially judging on the visit they had to the wayfinding centre there a couple of months ago. And the positive interviews you've done with some service users and users of Glide as well, I suppose wannabe users of Glide. I remember hearing that they liked the way it guided them and they liked the way it stopped and it reversed a little bit when it came to an obstacle. And it was a lot better than the previous prototype the year before. So it was looking very, very promising there for a while and I actually didn't really like the sound of it in the first place. But then after hearing the wayfinding centre interviews, I said, this product actually sounds quite good. I was getting more interested, you know what I mean? It was after building me up a bit and now to hear that it's not coming at all for the foreseeable as they put it, I'm so disappointed. I suppose I was just looking forward to seeing a couple of people, vision impaired and blind people, getting the product and maybe even seeing a couple of videos on it. And just seeing the excitement of doing something practical, like bring them to the shop or going to the shop guided by Glide or Glidance and whatever you like to call it. Or whatever they ended up finally calling it when it's eventually finished in the prototype stage and or even bringing somebody to work in employment, you know. So I just I thought I thought they were going the right direction for us over here in Europe, we'll say. And I know our neighbours there in the UK might have more positive news on it. But yeah, how do you feel about that? Like they're getting into the UK. Yeah, I feel a bit mixed about that, because I wonder what would have happened if the UK like, I know, what is it, probably four or five years now? I can't remember the year they actually left European Union. But I wonder what happened if they were still in the European Union? Would they would they still do the same do the same thing? Because I think the UK have a big, big market of Glidance share there, you know. So I'd say they must have a lot of customers in the UK. And maybe, look, I suppose the fact is they might not have as many EU regulations or hoops to jump through. And maybe they can just land there in the UK market. But I don't feel good about that to put that way, David. Yeah, it's kind of weird when you think that, you know, someone in, let's say, Northern Ireland would in theory be able to access Glide when someone here in the Republic wouldn't. It's kind of crazy when you think about it. But look, time will tell on that. But look, let's dive in then to the conversation that we had with AMOS. AMOS Miller is the CEO and founder of Glidance, the makers of Glide. And I caught up with AMOS to ask, you know, about a few different things, mainly, of course, the delay. But we also started off by having a quick chat about a new four million dollar funding round that has been raised by Glide. David, thank you. Great to be here again. You know, when you build a company with an ambitious goal in an ambitious community and market, it takes time to build up the understanding, if you like, in the investment community about what this is about and why this is a worthy investment and so forth. And it's been it's been a lot of work, but the really the positive turn of events over the last six weeks or so, with the with the funding has been incredible, a great and I think people are really starting to see what this is about and what future this is. This leads into when we talk about a future in which most blind people can be out and about a future of personal robots at the part of our day to day life. I think it's an exciting future. And that funding is in recognition of that. Super stuff. So how will that funding kind of, you know, how will that help Glide move forward? And, you know, who's involved? Can you say who's involved right now? So basically, the funding is part of our ongoing plans, our plans require funding. This round of funding has really been geared in order to take us through the next phase of the development, finishing the the hardware design based on the new design with the chassis and getting that into manufacturing, running the based fleshing out the software team to write to finish the features that are going to be required for launch and really continuing to drive. I mean, this funding will also be supporting the purchasing and initial inventory and everything. So it's critical for for our accomplishment of the of the goals that the milestones that we've got ahead of ourselves and with the with the goal of launching Glide in the first half of twenty twenty six, which is really what we're working to. Yeah. Yeah. Some big names in the funding round. We have folks from OpenAI, folks from SpaceX who've invested with us some incredible, actually a number of AI impact funds in and universities that are part of this round. And just a great group of people who who are seeing who are seeing what we're doing, seeing where this could lead. And yeah, really an exciting group of people funding the project. Super stuff. So I suppose we need to be open about, I suppose, what prompted this conversation in some ways. And we will touch on, I suppose, the current state of play with Glide and where Glide is at in just a bit. But you sent an email to those in Europe who had pre-ordered Glide last week explaining that they will be receiving refunds and that the launch of Glide in Europe was being, I suppose, delayed for the foreseeable future at least. But do you want to just start off by explaining, I suppose, simply why, first of all? Yeah, thank you, David, and thank you for the opportunity to thank you for bringing me on here to to to discuss this. I know, first of all, I want I want to really I really do understand that this is frustrating for people. You know, I I know many of the people in Europe who have pre-ordered by now. I know them personally. I know you how excited you are and have been to be part of this groundbreaking technology the way at least I see it. And it's it's definitely disappointing and frustrating to hear that hold back. We won't be able to get to you just yet. I just really do understand the reaction. It really came about over the last three months or so, we've really delved into what does rollout actually look like and really focusing on this notion of a gradual rollout, right? Glide is not like another pair of headset that's going to hit the market or like a new iPhone that everybody is going to line up. And overnight, you know, you'll have thousands and tens and thousands of people just getting a device and off they go home and have a good time. Right. Like it's a very, very new technology, a very new type of product with lots of questions. And I've been raising those questions in all our engagements and so on. And so it's it doesn't make sense to flash bang this rollout. It has to be gradual and small groups. And over time, as we build confidence in the way that people are receiving the device, people are starting to use it in their home environments, that we are able to support them in the right way. The devices are functioning in the right way. There will be teething problems, no doubt. Yeah. And it just didn't make sense to do that across twenty seven countries in addition to the US, UK and Canada. Sure. And so we that's really the the the moment of truth that we just decided. OK, what's the honorable thing to do here? Yeah, the honorable thing to do and willing to take any feedback was to say, OK, we're going to get to Europe, but not initially. We want our pioneers founding gliders to keep your place as a pioneer and founding glider. But in order to alleviate some of the pressure, we'll give you a refund on your preorder right now, because we don't at least at this stage know exactly when we'll be able to to get to you. So that's that's really hopefully again, I appreciate that that's been frustrating for folks. But hopefully that's the honorable, honorable way to to keep everybody involved. Sure. So why specifically choose, you know, Europe? And I suppose what I'm getting at here is there are a lot of similarities between, let's say, you know, the US, Canada, the UK, but also Ireland. You know, we are English speaking. Our terrain is much the same in many respects as the UK is. You know, what level of additional complexity, you know, would like I can kind of understand it from the point of view of, you know, a lot of other countries and maybe like there's extra, you know, is this regulations? Is this languages? What are the additional complexities specifically that launching in Europe would bring? Yeah, no, look, this is a very valid question, David. And I mean, so it's all of the above, but I think the important thing to just realize, Glidance is not Microsoft or Google or Meta with teams and lawyers and, you know, everywhere in the world looking at everything. Yeah, we're a small team that's trying to change the world and we have to do it a step at a time. So some of those questions we we don't have even the capacity to go and really understand to a great deal of detail. OK, yeah, and we really do have to focus in order to be able to build the confidence in the community and the product we have. We just have to focus our efforts. OK, so could and, you know, over the last year or so, and even some of the founding gliders and pioneers have highlighted, right. But over the last year or so, and we have visited Europe multiple times, we've been to Italy, France. Yeah, we obviously been to visit the Wayfinding Center in Ireland. It's it's it's become a few things have become apparent, right. Clearly, the regulatory environment is different. OK. How different? Still to be understood. The purchasing culture is different as well. Like we have got received a lot of feedback from many from a number of countries, from a number of people. And yeah, the expectations in some of the major countries in Europe is that this will be fully, fully funded by the government. Yeah, but it's only possible if there if you address, you know, you have to qualify and there's there's there's a process to get that we're not going to get through that process. Like there's no way our team can deal with that and deal with ensuring that we deliver an amazing product initially. And so so we have to choose our battles right now. Yeah. And now that is not to say I don't want it to sound like a big elephant that we're not going to touch. Of course, we will continue the relationship with folks in Europe. We just wanted to release, release the pressure a little bit and indicate to folks that it's going to take a little longer before we get there. If someone hypothetically purchases a glide, let's say in the UK, for example, and then either they move to Europe or they come on holidays to Europe, you know, given the regulations and all that, you know, you're saying yourself, you know, you're not fully abreast of just yet. Will Glide function as it would in the country that it was purchased in? This is a great question. Right. There's two aspects here. Right. One one aspect is bullet function. And the other one is does Glide support you using it there? Right. Yes. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, it's the measure glasses question. Regulations and liability and so forth. Yeah, there will be things that we just don't, you know, we don't support. Like and I would say that initially we are very clear that it's going to be the UK, the US and Canada where Glide is supported and where Glide is. Yeah. The point about the functioning in other countries, I mean, it could be somebody like yourself, David. Right. You go over London, you buy yourself a glide, you come home and you start buzzing around with it. It could be somebody who who lives in in London and goes traveling. And the simple answer is that at this state, like, of course, our goal is that it will work wherever you go. OK. But that the fact that it's our goal, it doesn't doesn't mean that we have we are at this stage have tested it and have validated and ensured that it that it actually functions and it actually has the the legal cover, quote unquote, to be used in other places. Yeah. And so I I would say that it's unlikely to be in place when we start when we launch. OK. But but that's more of a in many ways an over the air update. Like like if if if it's basically once we have the data, once we have it tested, once we have it validated, we will over time enable Glide to function in more and more geographies irrespective, regardless of whether Glide has been launched on those geographies. You see what I'm trying to say? These are two different two different dimensions. OK. Yeah. And I know that I'm being vague right now, and it's not because I'm I'm hiding any information. It's just that I don't know yet. Fair enough. Yeah. You may also not have an answer for this question, but I will ask it for what it's worth. You know, when you say, you know, the foreseeable future, what does that mean? Does that mean that, you know, we're not going to see Glide in Europe in 2026, 2027? You know, what are we looking at here as I suppose the best and worst case scenarios, or is that impossible to say right now? You know, when I in the years that I've been at Microsoft working on Soundscape, one of the topics that always gave me indigestion was the geographic rollout. And I always felt that we, because Microsoft was so conservative, we were never able to give anybody any kind of idea of what and when in which countries before we actually rolled out. And I was frustrated. I was frustrated by that. I know how frustrated the community has been by that. And so I, I have no intention of repeating that style of communication with Glidance. I want to give people heads up. And, you know, I think we've earned enough trust and authenticity with the community, that the community understands that if if we give an indication and then we learn something new and have to move the goalpost because because it doesn't make any sense, then we just have to accept that there's always some degree of risk with these things. Yeah, I would. So that that's really if you think of that's my my my philosophy and that's how I fully intend to to act. OK, yeah, the reality is our current plan is, like I said, that we will start rolling out first first half of twenty twenty six. We'll do it in in batches in groups. We'll start with twenty fifty hundred two hundred five hundred. Yeah, like it will grow as we build confidence and we're going to focus on these initial countries. In the first instance, OK. When once we build the confidence and we build the understanding of that, we that we have the right systems, the right capabilities to actually start to scale this and to get to other places. That's we will then be able to. You start to go to start to go to other countries. Yeah, yeah. And so again, without giving you a specific year right now. You can imagine you can expect that I call it the stabilization period. You know, we'll have to go through a stabilization period before we can start expanding. Yeah. I you know, that will start sometime in the middle of twenty twenty six. It's probably going to be a year or so. And then we'll then we'll see. And but but we will we will definitely provide a lot more heads up ahead of time. OK, as to as to how this is going. And like I said, my intention is to be as transparent as I can possibly be. And, you know, believe me, we had discussions internally about should we put out a date or year or time frame? We because we we so do understand that people need to have a sense. We need to build a bit more conviction around that time frame before we can really share it. OK, that makes sense. I do I do want to ask one kind of last question on this. And then I do want to move on to the more positive and exciting stuff about where Glide is at right now. But just in regards to this delay, you mentioned there that you're funding European customers who had pre-ordered. You know, I don't need a specific number, but is that a significant amount of money for Glide? Is that going to create any, you know, struggles down the road? How big is or was the European customer base that you were, you know, that have that you've had to accommodate with this in the way that I suppose wasn't the ideal scenario? But is I suppose your second best option? I can't give a number and I would say that any number is is material to a start up. Yeah, funding is is always even even if we close a round of funding, that funding is being used. It's not just doesn't just sit in a bank and grow. Absolutely. Believe me. Yeah, that would be a wonderful world. It would be a wonderful world, but it's not the case. So I would say, look, we also didn't do a ton of engagement in Europe. We didn't, for example, join the site. What's the site? Site City and some of the some of the big events. You know, even our engagement has has mostly been UK to US, Canada and UK. And that's where we got most of the pre-orders. The great the the lion's share, I would say. 90 percent or 85 percent of the pre-orders came from outside of Europe, so this is not a large, large number. OK, and the other issue in Europe is, of course, that it's two here and two here and one there and one there and one here and two here. Yeah, it's not like like we had, I could say, you know, we had one order in Estonia. OK, does that mean that we like how do we deal with that? Yeah, like it's it's just a bit more more we just need to to have a more solid strategy to support Europe. And we weren't just not ready for that. Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Let's move on. I know it's not fair enough, but look, it's I feel the frustration. I'm just sharing the the realities that I have to deal with as a CEO of a startup that's really trying to do something pretty ambitious, and I have to I have to dedicate the limited resources that we have to at the moment to moving the product forward, getting it to completion, getting it into the hands of people in the wild and really starting that iterative process of of building an unbelievable product for everyone. And that's where I have to dedicate my resources to right now. And look, at least you're being honest about that as well. I mean, there's a lot of, you know, your larger corporate companies that would never be this transparent. You mentioned, you know, the experiences that you've had in the past, you know, we can dislike this as much as we want. But ultimately, you know, you have your reasons for doing it. You've laid them out quite clearly. And, you know, at least you're being transparent and, you know, you're not saying this is a never. You're just saying this is a not right now. Absolutely. All right. Absolutely, David. I mean, I every every time I go on in front of people in demo days, virtual demo days and sessions, I talk about this future where I believe that we will see many more blind people out and about. And many will be still where many will be using canes and dogs, but many will also be guided by some form of an intelligent agent and intelligent guide. And I see that future happening. I also always emphasize that I think it's about it's five, six, seven years out where it's going to be at mass. It's not tomorrow, but it's also not in 10 years. And that's the journey that we're working towards. And it's everybody in the world is part of that vision. Right. It's. And honestly, you know, like, that's the beauty of developing a technology like this is it's so much more scalable. Right. Like the scale of what I mean, the scalability is, you know, I spent time in Singapore working with the local guide dogs organization there to to bring guide dogs to Singapore. That's been going on for years. And we have I just visited there recently and we have. Now, now we have I think we have now 10 dogs across Singapore, like. It's a small number. It's a small it's it's it's hard. It's it's it's not a scalable solution. It's a critical solution, but it's not scalable. And, you know, what we are trying to do with Glide is bring about something that is scalable, that the barriers to use are much lower, but also the barriers to distribution are much lower. And that includes it includes other countries for sure. Moving on, I do want to chat about some of the really exciting positive stuff. We obviously mentioned there that you have a funding round that closed recently. That's awesome. Yeah. But do you want to tell me, I suppose, on the practical, on the product level, what's new with Glide over the past couple of months? So, I mean, our main effort now is taking with taking Glide out of the lab and out of the test environments to people's home routes. OK. In the wild. Some of the capabilities we've worked on since you got to see the device, I think you saw it in early June, if I remember correctly. So, yeah. Yeah. And of May, early June. Yeah, early June it was. Yeah. Where we where we you tested the line line maintenance, where Glide keeps you going in a certain direction and zigzags around people, but continues in the direction it was going. Introduction of the buttons to take turns. So a lot of the core capabilities of freestyle navigation and what we're working on for it to work well in in outdoor, more sort of crazy environments as adding the computer vision layer that enables Glide to actually make distinctions, the distinction between, for example, a path and the lawn. So it doesn't go on the lawn. It stays on the path, even though they're both flat. Right. Or that way you walk along a sidewalk, a pavement and the boundary between the pavement and the road may be very, very low, but it's a clear boundary. So making sure that Glide stays stays on the sidewalk or maybe there's a grass verge. Stay or stay on the concrete. Avoid the grass verge. So all of those real world nuances that Glide has to be able to spot in order and manage and treat correctly to keep you on the path. So that's what that's what we're working on right now. And we are testing that with on on people's routes here in Seattle. We're working with with a number of people here in Seattle on their home routes. And that really my goal from this exercise is that they can accomplish their routes with Glide instead of the existing mobility aid. How's that going so far? Is that looking promising? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And we'll share more information about that and more details about that over the next couple of months. But that that's really where we where our focus is right now. And in parallel to that, we are finalizing the physical design of the device, the mechanical, electrical and everything, taking taking in effect the device that you saw was still the older design. We now have a new design that, like I explained before, is more rugged. It's more it feels more like a a scooter construction, if you like. It's kind of metal all the way from the wheels to the handle, strength and durability and so on. And that's going through final engineering, final design stages before it gets into manufacturing. So really, really the combination of those two really. Bring us to ready us to get to to to expand data and to really start to test the device with more and more people as we as we approach launch next next spring. So what needs to happen before, you know, outside of that testing, which obviously you'll need to do for safety and so on and so forth. But what has to happen between now and launch and is everything on track for that? Oh, a lot has to happen. Yeah, you're like you have a to do list that's quite long. We have an incredible team and a very diligent team across. Like working with the manufacturer to take all of our designs and all our engineering and build a manufacturing line that can produce these devices and produce them to the quality and to the reliability. They will be going through all the environmental testing that they need to go through, the certification testing that they need to go through. So a lot of a lot has to happen on the physical side of the device and a lot still has to happen with the software and making sure that the user experience comes together. We are currently, as I remind people, are focusing on initially on freestyle navigation and basically making sure that as a as a glide user, you can use glide as your primary mobility aid. And on that, we are starting, we will start to build all the other bells and whistles and map integration and so forth. So there's still a lot to develop on the software. Like I said, the key building blocks are there. It's more about integration and strengthening and testing, testing, testing and iterating. Super stuff. Before we do wrap up, is there anything else that you guys at Gleidens want to share? You know, be that to, you know, any glide customer, really glide customers who are receiving the refunds on a practical level. You know, is that going to be happening soon or has that already happened? You know, what's next and is there anything that we didn't cover that you guys do want to cover? So first, I just again want to reinforce that I appreciate that it's it's disappointing for folks. I want I really beg ask people to stay with us, keep with us, keep and keep engaged. We will get to Europe. We need your involvement and the refunds will be processed in September. I think the notice to the folks specified that. But you are still a from our perspective, at least you are still a pioneer, still a founding glider. And that's how how we would love to keep the relationship relationship with you. Super stuff. Amos, thank you so, so much. I know this was a very short notice conversation, but in fairness, you were more than open to it. So thank you so much for that. And best of luck with what is still, I think, a really exciting future. It is. Thank you, David. Thanks very much. And there you have it, that's an interview with Amos Miller, the CEO and founder of Glidance. Not an easy time for them. You know, it's it's an interesting one. I think you can hear there, I think Amos seems to get the reaction and why people in Europe are disappointed. And they are disappointed. One point that you mentioned there, Joe, and that you were reacting to is that they didn't necessarily rule out, you know, a software lock almost on people who, let's say, would would purchase a glide maybe in the UK. You know, that could cause some problems for people even if they they brought a glide over to Ireland. It does raise some questions, doesn't it? It does raise some questions. I personally wouldn't purchase one in the UK and then use it here in the Republic as your constant mobility device, because I imagine Glidance will be going on a subscription type of service, like every other, like everything these days, everything is a subscription. So I imagine Glidance to keep their business model going, they will do the same to make the deal. They'll pull back on a couple of areas and then they'll charge for the extra good bits, if you know what I mean. So if if you're living here in Ireland, which is part of the EU, you're going to be asked to register under your name and address and all the rest of it. And I'm presuming there'll be some lockdowns on that. So I'd hold fire if there anyone was thinking of, we'll say, I won't call it breaking the law, but going over the border and getting a glide device that way, I wouldn't do it, to be honest with you. I'd hold fire and wait and see, will Vision Ireland maybe fight our case and see, can we get it over here in the foreseeable future, as Glidance put it. But look, and then maybe somewhere down the line, there might be a developer out there that will spot a niche in the market now that they're not coming to the EU and they could make a better device than Glide, who knows? With all the influx of AI out there now and different cameras and light art, there could be someone out there that has the foresight to see we need something like this. And there is demand for a product like this. So we'll live in hope, David. Absolutely. You know, it's interesting that that whole idea of a glide black market almost in the UK. We can advise all we want, I think, against people, you know, ordering a glide from the UK. But we saw this when Glide came to the wave finding centre. There were people that, I kid you not, were flying in from across Europe to check out Glide at the wave finding centre. So I can almost guarantee that no matter what we say or what Glide say or what anyone says, people aren't going to listen. There are going to be people that are going to go to the UK and they are going to get Glide. And that's going to cause problems for Glidance. It's going to possibly cause questions for us in Vision Ireland. And we'll get to that in a second. But like it's a really awkward position that this is putting everyone in here because people really, really want this device. And for those who, you know, really believe in it, they're very passionate, Joe, aren't they? Oh, they're very, very passionate on it. And look, I can see why the marketing videos make it look really, really cool and it looks like it works. You know, I haven't had my hand on it, you have. You could tell us for sure if you liked it and all the rest of it. But I think it makes sense for people, you know, I'm not saying it won't replace a guide dog. Like in some cases and in others it will. And the guide dog is a great companion for people as well, apart from getting them from A to B. But this device would have done that for people as well in the long run, they hope. I know AI is definitely moving forward, but also it also has its blockades and its issues. So I think that's why this device hasn't been released this September, like they thought. They have a lot more hoops to jump through before they get there. And if they get released, there's no definite that they'll be released in 2026 either, David. So I'm not being negative on the company or anything like that. But if they're having trouble getting into the EU regulations, we'll just we'll see. We'll wait and see. And I do hope they are successful. And the four million, as you said, that they've raised will get them to the top of the mountain and eventually over here. But we'll just wait and see. Absolutely. Well, let's hear now from Kevin Kelly. Kevin is in charge of partnerships and policies here at Vision Ireland. He is also a guide dog user himself. And I suppose, look, let's just have a listen to Kevin's perspective. I think it's really interesting having tried Glide and also, you know, you know, having that insight as to the regulations around this as well. It's a really interesting perspective. So let's dive in to Kevin's perspective and get the official response from Vision Ireland. So joining me now on Talking Technology, I am joined by our head of policy and partnerships, Kevin Kelly. Kevin, how are things? Things are well, David. Delighted to be on the podcast. Hope you're keeping well yourself. I am. Thank you very much. Really, really good. Although we did in this episode, we have some not so positive news, Kevin. I suppose you've heard the interview with Amos of Glide. You've also used Glide yourself in the past. What's your reaction to this and what's the kind of response generally from Vision Ireland? David, it was, you know, with regrets and a level of frustration that we learned last week that Glide's launch in Europe was going to be delayed. And I suppose wearing my personal and professional hats, it was a bit of a double whammy. You're correct in saying that when Glide visited the Wayfinding Centre back at the start of June, I had the opportunity to use Glide, as did in excess of 50 other people who are blind and vision impaired. On that day, the feedback was tremendously positive, very upbeat. Everyone was very excited. I genuinely thought that there was, you know, something very positive here in the not too distant future in terms of mobility for people who are blind and vision impaired. Glide have made the decision to delay the European launch. I have spoken to the founders myself in and around the timing of their announcement. And I understand from a business perspective where the gents are coming from, but from a Vision Ireland perspective and the perspective of someone who is blind myself, who's very eager to see Glide introduced in Europe, it's quite sad news. So they mentioned their things, you know, like they touched on regulation and even the fact that one thing that they didn't explicitly say and AMOS didn't explicitly say, but it was kind of hinted that even if someone, you know, purchased a Glide in Britain, let's say, and they brought it over to Ireland, either on holiday or just, you know, almost a black market, if you call it that, that there would be a kind of question as to whether that was going to work in a fully featured fashion. Do you think like these kind of EU regulations, are they, you know, as scary as are stated? And is this hindering innovation in a bit? Because we've just come off the back of similar issues in some respects with meta glasses. So is this an issue and how is Vision Ireland responding to that? I would have the view that certainly it is an issue. Do I believe that they are insurmountable challenges? No, I don't. I think that a lot of companies are grappling with compliance with EU regulations. I do have a level of sympathy for Glide because if a company like Metta are struggling to comply, a start-up company that's quite niche, and I'm sure you know what I mean when I say niche, there's a limited market for the product. So I've extended the offer to Glide that we will work exceptionally close with them to try to overcome any EU hurdles and advocates on their behalf. Because I fully recognize, as does the wider team in Vision Ireland, the significant game-changer Glide potentially could be once the final version is launched. And you hit on something quite interestingly there, David, like 70 miles from Dublin, people next spring or next summer are going to be able to purchase a Glide, but someone who is the other side of the border won't be able to. And there is going to be a level of, in adverte commas, Glide tourism. That does present a series of challenges for Glide themselves, for organizations like Vision Ireland. Can we help and support people with a product that's not licensed for the European market? It does pose a lot of questions, and it also poses questions for people who are blind and vision impaired themselves around, are they willing to purchase the product, deploy it when they know it's not licensed in the European market? It poses some exceptionally big questions. These are questions, though, that need to be asked, need to be worked through, to ensure that we can have Glide available to people in the Republic of Ireland as soon as possible. And I think in fairness to Amos, if I recall his interview with yourself correctly, he acknowledged that they haven't deep dived on the EU regulation piece, which gives me a degree of hope and optimism that a resolution will be found. And when they do come to Europe, that Ireland will be first in the line or in the first batch of countries, because I think it's easier to launch in Ireland, quite frankly, we're an English speaking country. The geographical landscape, the regulations, designs of streetscapes are largely adopted from the UK. So it should be quite a seamless transition to deploy Glide in the Republic of Ireland once any EU regulation hurdle is overcome. Were they receptive from the conversation you had with them to that kind of partnership whereby Vision Ireland will be willing to almost advocate a little bit on their behalf? Was that a positive conversation, would you say? I feel it was a positive conversation and I've worked quite closely with Amos and Luke for, you know, in excess now of 18 months in the run up to them coming to Dublin to do their demo day. There's a strong interest, a level of engagement, and I think that comes across in the interview. So I believe that the relationship with Glide will continue. It probably won't advance at the same rate and level that it was. But I do believe that they are open to partner with organisations like Vision Ireland and Amos and Luke. When they were in the Wayfinding Centre and David and you know this yourself, you were there on the day. There's very few days where you can come to work and everyone that's in attendance is hugely positive about a product or device. There was a great atmosphere on the day. So both Luke and Amos know that there is a demand and a strong interest in Glide in Ireland. So hopefully that will weigh heavy when they make the decision as to what European countries they will launch in when the time is right for them. Kevin, thank you so much for that. I do want to ask you before I let you go, how are things going with the Wayfinding Centre? What's been happening over that neck of the woods? Things are going exceptionally well for the Wayfinding Centre. We have been operational now since April 2024. Where does time go during that time period? We've had over 4,700 people in through the doors of the Wayfinding Centre for a mixture of training, technical masterclasses, visits. There's a strong level of interest and engagement. We're delivering disability and equality and awareness training to Irish Rail and Lewis with conversations with the other operators very much underway. And we are partnering with a number of local authorities to run consultation events and provide their staff with training around projects that relate to active travel. Because some of those designs can, if not done correctly, have an adverse impact on people with disabilities. So things are going well at the Wayfinding Centre. And as always, I would encourage any of your listeners to visit the wayfindingcentre.ie website for more information. And if anyone's interested in becoming involved in the work of the Wayfinding Centre, you can find a forum to join the transport access panel. And that is a forum that we use to provide people with an opportunity to get involved in our work, whether it be co-design or user testing. So there's lots of ways and opportunities to get involved. Valuable stuff. Kevin, for now, thank you so much for joining us. And I'm sure you'll be back again sometime. No problem at all, David. And there you have it. That is Kevin Kelly, Head of Policies and Partnerships at Vision Ireland. A really interesting perspective and good to know that Vision Ireland as well will be hopefully supporting Glide. And hopefully, as Kevin said, Glidance will be receptive to that. Time will only tell on that. And hopefully, we won't be just left in the lurch here indefinitely. I mean, there is a lot of passion for Glide, there is a lot of excitement for Glide, and there's also a lot of potential. Glide absolutely has its issues, some of which are indeed fundamental, but there's a lot of passion, excitement and potential there. So it's going to be one to watch over the next year or two, and we shall see how it goes. But hey, that is our show for today. We're not going to do talking technology news or anything like that today. We did that on Tuesday so you can have a listen back to episode 92 if you'd like all of the regular stuff. This was just an extra episode to update you on all the goings on with Glide and Glidance. But for now, that is our show. We'll be back in two weeks time when we know there is going to be an Apple event on the 9th of September. That is official now. So we will be covering that and much more besides. So do stick around, do subscribe on the VI Labs YouTube channel to talking technology with VI Labs on any of your podcast apps of choice. And we'll be back in two weeks time for a brand new episode. But for now, thank you so, so much for listening. We'll see you soon. And hopefully at some stage in the future, we will be getting Glide in the EU. See you soon. Thanks for listening to the Talking Technology Podcast with VI Labs. If you'd like to support our show, please visit vi.ie slash donate. 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