New Apple Accessibility Features and the Latest in the World of Braille – Talking Technology Episode 112

On this episode of Talking Technology, we react to the latest accessibility features announced by Apple.

Peter joins us to discuss updates to digital braille devices, including news on the BrailleNote Evolve and the BrailleSense 7. We also explore the Paige Braille app for those learning braille for the first time with Mairead, while Brian tells us everything we need to know about a new braille book club from Vision Ireland.

It’s bank scams and blue screens in this week’s tech news — and why are all the big technology companies suing each other?

Join the conversation with a WhatsApp voice note now. The number you need is +353 86 199 0011.

0:17 - intro and chat about Apple Accessibility features

8:06 - The actual official podcast intro with the American fella

11:05 - Contact details, MayFest 2026, and the new Google Fitbit Air

19:30 - Peter discusses the BrailleNote Evolve and BrailleSense 7

32:09 - Brian discusses the Vision Ireland bookclub, and David has some canine competition

44:39 - Paige Braille with Mairead

54:33 - Talking Technology News

1:01:51 - outro 

Transcript

0:00

This Fijian Arlen podcast contains chapter markers. If you want to skip the intro or a topic you don't like, you can use chapter markers to do so. Chapter markers are only supported in some podcast apps. Enjoy the show. Hello one, hello all, and welcome into the podcast. We're recording this section. We've already finished today's podcast, but we are recording this segment after the fact because Apple are being very, very bold. We had just done today's entire podcast. The whole thing is there, sitting there ready to upload. Then Apple send out a press release that they are announcing loads of new accessibility features for Global Accessibility Awareness Day. So listen, I'd be lying if I said we were prepared. And we do actually have a full podcast for you that you will be able to listen to in just a moment, I promise. But we did want to respond to this briefly before we send the podcast out in the world. So I am joined from Portlish, Daniel? Yep. Portlish. In the Midlands. There you go, in the Midlands by Mr. Daniel Dunn. Daniel, how are you? Good, good, yeah, so. You've already done the news, so. Yeah, hot off the press. Hot off the press, breaking news indeed. Yeah, so we interrupt. We interrupt your hot every year we're going to head off. We haven't even got to the American guy yet, but there you go. So Daniel, so new announcements from Apple. We're getting a lot of our information just from the Apple website and AppleVis here, but one of the big ones straight away stand out, much more detailed image descriptions coming into voiceover and the magnifier. This is a big deal for people, I think. This, yeah, this is brilliant. Apple Intelligence is going to make the likes of ViceOver and Magnifier more powerful as Apple say themselves. So in ViceOver, when you're exploring images, you're going to get much more detailed descriptions of images all across the system. So whatever is in your photograph or even a photograph of a scanned bill or maybe a photograph of your passport, whatever it is with the new updates that are coming to live recognition, ViceOver users can press the action button on the iPhone to ask a question about what's in the camera viewfinder, get a detailed response, whether that's on, you know, with the camera app open or going through your gallery. You can ask follow-up questions. So if you maybe say, you know, describe what's in this photograph and it comes back and you won't say, oh, right, what color is the sky in that photograph? You know, you can continue it on. So I think that's going to be a fantastic feature because if you're looking for some sort of detail, which while this is going to be very detailed description coming back with Apple Intelligence, you might want to hone in on a specific aspect of that or maybe you feel there's something missed in that description you can ask about or sort of reevaluate and go again for you. So that's, you know, I think that's a brilliant, brilliant feature that's going to come. You can also ask it to zoom in. You can ask it to turn on the flashlight if you're in live camera mode. So I think that's brilliant. Just with your voice. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you're going to see Apple Intelligence being embedded more into the ViceOver system, more into the Magnifier system, into the voice control system. Some really cool stuff from voice control. Yeah, I like this in particular, right? Because voice control is a bit like, it's either for you or it's not. And for people who have took voice control by the scruff of the neck and worked it, they get on fairly good with it. But it does take patience, perseverance, and you know, all those good qualities that everybody should have. Yeah. But I think now with this Apple Intelligence coming to voice control, you'll be able to kind of wander away from the rigid commands that voice control wants in order to be able to function properly. So you can get a little bit more, you know, generic in asking it to do something on screen that maybe, you know, if your friend was beside you say, oh, just tap on that green button there. Yeah. So your voice control could say, oh, you have to say login button, which happened to be colored green, you know? I do wonder if you'll be able to like stack commands. Like, will I be able to say, you know, oh, double tap this and then select the whatever. Will I be able to say two things at once and have it respond? I'm very curious to see if I'm able to do that, you know? You know, open the RTE news app and go to the entertainment section. Do you know that kind of way, like? Yeah, yeah. I'm very curious. Yeah, I don't know if that's gonna be in this, but yeah, it would be fantastic. But I think, you know, open the RTE app and then when it opens, just say, take me to the entertainment, go to the entertainment section. I think that will be as good as it gets. Maybe, maybe, maybe it'll stack the commands. I don't know. Who knows? Maybe I'm being too ambitious. And then for, there's gonna be much more on this in the newsletter on Thursday. So do check out that and sign up if you haven't already. The last exciting one there, more for those who are deaf than blind, but there's a new sign language feature coming to FaceTime that will allow you to use a third-party sign language app and those developers will be able to bring an interpreter directly into a FaceTime call. That's very exciting stuff. I'd say Ira are delighted, Daniel. Yeah, look, it's competition. It's going to heat things up and, you know, this is what drives innovation. To be fair, like, you know, Android and iOS practically knocking it out of the park in their own respective advancements. And I think, you know, if you only had one without the other, regardless of which side of the divide you come down on. I don't think we will be as far along today in any technology advancements without companies competing with each other, you know, trying to do things better, trying to innovate, bring more cool features into it. So, yeah. So look, I take overall Apple Intelligence, which is going to be powered by Gemini? Gemini, yeah, potentially, yes. Yeah, I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be exciting. And, you know, it's a little bit overdue. Apple kind of have been slow to get in on the AI. But I think the way this has been implemented for, you know, particularly for our audience here today, it's going to be fantastic, absolutely fantastic. Exciting times ahead for sure. Right, Daniel, thank you so much for that. We can go back and put our feet up now, as we do. Not, definitely. But there you go. Now, we will move on to our actual podcast. Do be sure to subscribe to all the things. And I'll hand you over now to the American guy to do the actual podcast intro. Welcome to Talking Technology with VI Labs. At VI Labs, we believe technology is the single greatest enabler for people with sight loss and all disabilities. If you're looking for the latest news and conversation on tech, from a more accessible perspective, you've come to the right place. Yes, you have. Hello, gang. Welcome in to Talking Technology with VI Labs, episode 112. Hope you're keeping well. Hope all is going good in your world. And oh boy, things are going good here in Ireland. We've had some fantastic success around the globe here in Ireland lately. Don't know if you've been reading some of these stories in the news, but we had great success at the Tandem Cycling World Cup. Jessica Kennedy and her pilot, Alice Sharp, they did a stellar job coming fifth in both the time trial and the road race, which is absolutely incredible. What an achievement. That took place in Italy just a little bit ago. So that is awesome. Congratulations to them. And we are also having fantastic success on the Braille front because we have two kids from Ireland and they are going to Los Angeles, if you don't mind, to LA, to represent Ireland in the International Braille Challenge from the Braille Institute, which is really, really cool. It's fantastic to see Braille being recognised on the international stage and even for locally, for us here to have Braille being shouted about from the rooftops. And we're having success in Braille, which is really fantastic. So best of luck to them. And again, best of luck and well done to Jessica Kennedy and Alice Sharp. They're absolutely smashed it. So very well done. And hey, we have a great podcast coming up for you over the next hour or so. Hopefully we will smash this too. We have a fantastic show all about Braille actually. We've got loads of different topics. We'll have Peter going through some of the latest innovations in Braille, including the BrailleNote Evolve and the Braille Sense 7. We'll be talking about that in just a bit. Raid will be along to discuss the new Page Braille app for learning Braille. And we are also going to be catching up. Yes, he's here with Mr. Brian Manning to talk all about Braille literacy and a new Braille book club from Vision Ireland. So there is loads to get through and not enough time to do it, but we will try and make time to do it. And we will have fun along the way. And remember, this isn't just our podcast, it's your podcast too. And we'd love if you did want to get in touch with us, whether it's tech news, maybe new tech you've tried, your experiences on Braille, or maybe your experience with tandem cycling, given what we were just talking about, or maybe you just want to congratulate people. Send us a voice note. The numbers that you need and the email addresses, well, here they are. So if you want to join the conversation, there are loads of ways to do so. You can send us a WhatsApp voice note if you like. The number that you need, 086-199-0011. That's 086-199-0011. And remember, you want to use the voice message button. That's located at the bottom right-hand corner of your screen. And it's labeled with voiceover and all that good stuff. So you will find that there. And all you do is give it a double tap and record your message. And then it will come straight to us. So just hold on it if you're using the phone visually. You can also send us an email to content at vi.ie. That's content at vi.ie. So no matter how you would like to get in touch with us or what you would like to get in touch with us about, those are just some of the ways that you can do so. And to catch up on all the goings on from the week gone by, I am joined all the way from Kilkenny by Mr. Joe Larnagan. Joe, how are you? Hi David, I'm good, thank you. And I hear you were at Mayfest at the weekend. We had a VI Labs technology stand there. So how did that go? It was great, Joe. Yeah, busy weekend, actually. But a fantastic one, myself and Georgia, one of our technology trainers from Dublin, who has been on this podcast before. We went to Mayfest on Saturday and we were showing off all sorts of cool kind of fitness-y toys and stuff like that. We had the Withings Smart Scales there. And we were showing off how they can connect to your phone and stuff like that. We were demoing the audio game hub and we had a kind of fun samurai game there were loads of kids about. And one of the kids informed me very bluntly that it's no Minecraft, Joe. Oh, I could imagine it's no Minecraft. But it is what it is, as they say. But what about yourself? Did you try any sports? I know you might, I'm not sure, are you the sporty type? But did you try any? Well, I did. We spent our, most of the day was spent showing off meta glasses and various other bits. But in the afternoon, when it kind of calmed down a bit, myself and a friend, we headed around to a few with the different stations. I tried, I don't know, was it archery? I think it was archery for the first time. That was the one where you shoot the arrow. And they had these arrows with almost like suction cups at the end. So I didn't manage to get a bullseye, but I did manage to do pretty okay for my sins, which was good. But they had this really cool joke called the X-Wall. And this was like a big kind of projector wall kind of a thing. And in terms of like how it sounded, it almost sounded like really fun, like, you know, like the old Nintendo Wii games, but you could throw balls at this wall. You could hit this wall with a mallet or whatever, and it would detect where you hit it. And you were able to do different games on it. Like there was ones where you were bursting bubbles. There were ones where you were playing whack-a-mole. I did okay, given my level of vision. I did okay at a basketball game. I actually beat the person I was with, and she was sighted, so that was good. But I absolutely wiped the floor then when it came to a sound matching game. So, you know, all is good in Love and War, Joe, or something like that. Is that what they say? Yeah, well, you take those wins, David, you know, carry them medals with you. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I learned something else today. I never knew what TT meant when it came to motorbike race and our tandem cycling. Yeah. But it means time trial. And thanks for your number of information there. You're on, and well done to the, well, I know you got fifth, but close to being champions. Wait, there are champions, Joe. There are champions. Yeah, there are champions. They got going over there and taking part in a massive event like that, amazing. Who does the most of the work, I wonder, in these tandems? Is it the one at the front or the back? I suppose, I don't know. I'd imagine that it has to be kind of an equal, you need to be able to communicate equally, I guess. Well, yeah, they absolutely smashed it. And I believe, I don't know if Alice Sharp there, the pilot, was going with Jessica onwards to a different event, but I think she was also competing in Poland just last week as well. So truly going around the world there with the tandem cycling. It's fantastic to see that we're having Irish success in that field as well, isn't it? Yeah, big time, yeah. Absolutely. And on the fitness front, Joe, things are, we're always seeing new fitness wearables and different kinds of things. We had some of them at our stand at Mayfest, but there's a new Fitbit on the way, or a new Google, they're calling it something different now? Yeah, so Google bought the Fitbit service a couple of years ago, and now they've released the new Google Fitbit Air. And this is a band type of wearable. It's not really a watch. I suppose it looks a little bit like a watch, but it's, there's no screen on it, a screenless watch to say. It's more like a pebble, a strap with a pebble on it. So the pebble is kind of the thing that tracks your metrics. So it does 24-7 tracking. The battery, the last seven days, which is really good for anything that anyone with vision impaired is wearing, because we're always complaining about the Apple watch, even though this isn't a proper watch, we're always complaining about the Apple watch and how sharp the battery life is. So if you're into wearables, and you want something that lasts a long time for the whole week, the Google Fitbit Air is the job. But it also has a new service built into the Google AI coach, and that will give you tips, and I suppose it'll gee you up when you're not matching expectations and things like that. So that'll be interesting to see how that goes. It's only out a couple of weeks, David, and hopefully we'll get our hands on it some day to test it. And it will be accessible with voiceover, because I know already the Fitbit app is fairly accessible. So, and TalkBack, of course, for any of those Android users out there. So we will test it sometime in the future, and I look forward to even getting it myself one day, but that's one of the new devices out at the moment. And because there's no screen on it, we're all in the same boat. So I'd imagine it's accessible. There you go, that's pretty cool. Notably, you were saying no speaker on it either, Joe. So it's pretty much, as I understand it, just a set it and forget it kind of thing. You just pop it on, and then you check stuff through the app. Yeah, it's kind of described as a pebble in the strap. So, but the straps are interchangeable, so you can get different colors. Yeah, set, charge it, set it, forget it, and just check the app. And I suppose you can turn on notifications and get updated as many times as you want during the day, or maybe none at all. But yeah, your app is the place to go. Absolutely, very cool stuff there from the fine boys and girls at Google. Very good stuff. And interesting to see what fitness wearables and accessibility continue to look like. Lots of conversation over the weekend about how things like the meta glasses might play more of a role in sports going forward. We're probably a bit away from that, but it was fascinating to see all of the different sports stuff that was there at Mayfest over the weekend. So hey, if you were there, maybe let us know your experience, what stuff you got to try, what you liked. We'd love to hear from it. I didn't get to try, I didn't get to try the old, it was like a, what do you call those? Bouncy castles with a disco ball in it, Joe. I didn't get to try that. Genie Mac, I think you might have avoided it, David. That's what happened there. Maybe so, Joe, maybe so. But hey, if you had an experience there, do let us know the number on WhatsApp 086-199-0011, or you can send us an email to content at vi.ie. We'd love to hear from you. So please do get in touch. Now though, there is always loads of things happening on the Braille front, loads happening in the world of Braille. Braille is absolutely not standing still. And there has been loads of innovations just recently, Humanware announcing a new version of the Braille Note, the Braille Note Evolve, and Selvis BLV, Blind Low Vision, as they were called. They used to be hymns, I believe. But now Selvis BLV, they are introducing a new version of the Braille Sense. And we are moving from the Braille Sense 6 to the Braille Sense 7. And to chat all that and more, I am joined all the way from Limerick by Peter Claragebaugh. Peter, how are you? I'm doing well, David. Thank you very much for having me for today. Thank you so much. So Peter, loads happening in the world of Braille. We'll start off with some of these new Braille devices. The first one I think that I became aware of, and we talked about this after Site Village on the podcast last year, this is the Braille Note Evolve. Do you want to tell me a little bit about this device? Yeah, it's a very impressive device, very exciting capabilities coming from HumanWare and the Braille Note Evolve. So with the Braille Note Evolve, this is going to be the first integration with Windows 11 or Windows 11 Pro and having direct access to softwares like NVDA and Jaws as well, as well as Microsoft 365. This kind of bridges that gap of tablet functionality that most Braille Note takers have been utilizing for the better part of 20 years to now full-fledged PC functions. So, and it has a wide range of customizations and customization capabilities with the menu structures as well, allowing from someone who's very new to a Microsoft environment to simply use the key soft services, while as they learn and progress through their technology training, they can eventually move on to the full-fledged Windows operating system. It's very exciting. Exactly, very cool. So this is built, or at least when we spoke about it before, it was built very much around NVDA and I think HumanWare had done some work around modifying NVDA a little bit to their needs. Is that still the case or are they doing a lot more with Jaws now? What's kind of powering this thing under the hood, I guess? So that's a really great question as still, it has not been released to the general public yet and so there's still a little bit, not quite as much information as we're known for. But yes, they have been working directly with NVDA so that you can use the NVDA screen reader with the Perkins style keyboard and the interfaces of Windows 11. But in recent months, they've also been doing a lot of collaboration with Vispero, who manufactured Jaws and the Jaws license and programs. So you can utilize a full Jaws subscription upon purchasing the device though. You are given six months free subscription of Jaws, which is very impressive, especially with the current market for Jaws as well, that is kind of a big selling point. Now, whether they'll keep these similar cheaper options available for subscription after the six months expiration, well, we don't know yet, but we'll certainly see. That's a very interesting play from Vispero's point of view. That's very interesting. It is, isn't it? Yeah, that's really interesting. So, and it just goes to show that they seem to want to really get, certainly from the Jaws site, they're eager to keep Braille users involved and using Jaws there. So that's very interesting to see, fascinating stuff. So what is the big standout of this versus some of the devices that came before? We're talking things like the BrailleNote Touch and others. What's the big difference? Well, we've more or less moved away with the BrailleNote Evolve from an Android setting. So most BrailleNote takers and BrailleNote Touch series prior to this used Android as its operating system with the combination of Keysoft, which is HumanWare's proprietary software. So now it's this complete integration where we'll receive regular Windows updates instead of having to wait to have the Android equivalent configured and catered for for the Keysoft software. So it certainly opens up longevity, which is the primary goal, I believe, of this device is the longevity. Because of course, the issue with operating systems that get outdated relatively quickly, especially on a tablet side of things, is after a few generations of an update, the device just no longer can work with it or the device is no longer compatible with the newer firmware. But if we're adding this level of flexibility with the Windows update system and the active system updates that Windows regularly gets, you'll end up having a device that can last probably three times longer than traditionally. Awesome stuff. And then talk to me about this new device from the folks at Selvis then as well. We've got the BrailleNote 7, or sorry, the BrailleSense 7, my apologies. So talk to me about the BrailleSense 7. What's different here between the 6 and 7? So with the 7, we'll see a big increase in the use of AI assistive technology to give descriptions of overall pages and information. We'll be moving into what's called an active tracking responsive Braille display. So that means as your finger runs along the display and it reaches the end of the line, it'll automatically refresh to the next line, which I think is pretty nice if you don't wanna have to be pressing buttons and you just want a continuous reading feeling. There'll be a scroll wheel, a physical analog scroll wheel that's being added to the device, which allows from the way they've described it, someone who's reading Braille to skin read through a document, similarly how a sighted person would on a printed document. That's really interesting. I'd be skeptical as to how it will work, but that's very cool. Yeah, it's certainly an exciting, again, these are lots of little exciting features that are being improved upon and kind of refinements within the Braille Sense 7. We're seeing a lot more flexibility and open source software being accessed. They're going down a similar route though to being able to use NVDA with a computer or access the device with NVDA remote, which offers the Braille Sense 7 the ability to access the computer as if though it was still part of the device itself. So it's all built in. Wow, that's really interesting. But it's still running Android. So they'll be starting off with Android 15 and then hopefully over the years, they'll progress on to slightly more advanced versions of Android. But I think this is where we're gonna start seeing a small power creep happen with updates and compatibility. Do you think then that as we start to see these Braille note takers move more and more and integrate more and more with Windows, is that going to lead to better Braille support on the Windows side generally through screen readers like NVDA and JAWS and how is, or even narrator. But, and then how is that going to impact those who are using, you know, more traditional displays if you think of something like the Focus. I fear, not fear. I think it's gonna show great positivity with maintaining those devices as well, or keeping newer versions of those devices up to date. For example, we'll take the Brailliant 40X or BI 40X, which is integrated perfectly with Windows and that has been their goal since the inception of those particular versions of the device. I think at least HumanWare's end goal has to make it as integrated and seamless as possible to have either a Braille note taker or a Braille display connect to your device without any issue or be able to be used independently. So that's where I can see their kind of, and their goal is to make it as completely integrated as possible. But will it trickle down, I suppose, to? Maybe not to older devices, no. I struggle to see it trickling down to things like the fifth generation of Focuses, the Focus 14s and upwards. Just because of their age at this point, they need to either have some massive overhaul in their software or at least a new version released. Now, there was talk and an article released by Vispero several months ago regarding a new generation of Braille displays coming out, but that seems to have gone a bit under the radar now, so we don't quite know what's happening on that front. So we're a bit hesitant. I say I'm hesitant to say anything about the old Focuses because we have just been seeing compatibility issues as newer phones come out, newer softwares, newer versions of Bluetooth come out. We've started seeing how the Focus line is now starting to show its age and it's starting to suffer for its age. Okay, good to know. So overall, you would say, though, you're excited about these next steps in Braille, some really interesting products coming down the line, and competition in this space, ultimately a good thing, Peter? Oh, it's absolutely. I think the biggest problem that we've had for maybe the better part of 10, 15 years has been that when these devices have come out, they've been released two or three years apart from their competitors. So there hasn't really been neck and neck competition to see what is the beneficial device or what's the popular device or what device is showing to be better than the others. But now that both of these devices are due to release some point this year, we're going to see that reactionary situation of what device is popular, what device has been shown to be more reliable, what device's performances are going to be better or worse. Absolutely. And there's going to be more of an attempt to do some of that with software as well, quickly make those improvements and see how that lands. Peter, exciting stuff. Thank you so much for discussing that. And we'll be covering more of that kind of stuff on the podcast, in the newsletter, and all of these places in the coming weeks and months. So do subscribe to all of those things. But for now, Peter, thank you so much. Thank you very much for having me. Have a good day. Thank you very much. Thank you kindly. Righto then, let's move on. We've got some exciting Braille topics still to come. But if you would like to share your thoughts, we would love to hear from you. Would you be interested at all in some of these new Braille note takers? What Braille devices do you use? You can send us a voice note on 086-199-0011. Now, we are always looking to find more ways here in Vision Ireland that people can use Braille. I mean, you know yourself, Braille is used a lot on things like packaging, especially around pharmacies and the like. But oftentimes people want to just use Braille for leisure. And that's great too. And one of the ways that we're working on that is the launching of a new Vision Ireland book club. So to talk about all that and more, I caught up with the one and only Mr. Brian Manning to discuss Braille literacy and what's coming from Vision Ireland. So joining me now on Talking Technology. Oh boy, he is back. I am joined all the way from Cork. Yes, a million miles away by Mr. Brian Manning. How are you? Very good David, and how are you sir? I am very good. Brian, I hear that you are cheating on me with another David. Is this true? Far more cuddly David than you indeed. He's my brother's young dog called David, would you believe? That's a great name for a dog. And you're not the only one, you're not the only one to take umbrage by it because my godson, my brother's son is also called David. And he took huge umbrage when Gavin decided to call his new pup David. So it's a matter of some controversy within the family as well. I can imagine. So there are three. Blessed am I among Davids, I'm almost biblical. There you go, absolutely. I'm almost biblical. And which one is your, am I up there with the, do I at least land higher than the dog? Well the dog is about six inches. You took a very long time to respond there. The dog is about six inches off the ground, so you are higher than the dog. Okay, good. But my nephew has more money than you I'd say, so he could be my favorite. Okay, fair enough, good to know. Well I at least have more money than the dog. That's good to know. Ryan, we aren't here just to talk about the Ol Madras. We are here to chat about all things braille and specifically braille literacy. Brian, braille literacy, we've said this on the podcast before, hugely important. It's very important, especially for certain cohorts. So for example, it's imperative that young kids learn literacy and numeracy. So therefore, you know, young children who are born blind, for example, it's very, very much advisable that they are taught braille just to develop their literacy skills and their numeracy skills. And again, I mean, as we've often alluded to in the past, I mean, it's vitally important for deaf-blind people, for example, to have good braille skills because as a tool of communication, it is hugely valuable to deaf-blind people, particularly the way, you know, AI technologies are developing. And so for example, with the metaglasses now, they're talking about including an action button on the newer models of the metaglasses. So you can assign, you know, the action button to a certain skill level. So you could assign it, for example, for deaf-blind people to instruct the, you press the action button and the deaf-blind person can tip the action button. The metaglasses will take a picture and start reading the text. So therefore it kind of bypasses the need for verbal communication with the glasses. And once the deaf-blind person has a braille display or a braille note-taker, they can read the results of the instructions to the metaglasses. So they have immediate access to literature or post or whatever it is they want to read. So again, that's just one example as to how significant braille can be for deaf-blind people and the inclusion of braille in modern technologies, which I think is even increasing the currency of braille from within the blind and deaf-blind community. I was having a conversation earlier in the week with one of our community resource workers who works on our children's team. And they were telling me that they actually had, I can't remember the exact number, but they actually had quite a large number of kids that were learning braille. And it's good to see that braille is still being developed in schools and that braille skill is still, it's still prevalent, I guess. Well, it is. And again, it feeds back to my initial point about children having been required to learn numeracy and literacy, it's an invaluable, it's a necessary life skill that we all need to develop. And that is the main channel through which younger blind people can develop those skills. So, and again, the fact that these developing technologies are complementing people's braille skills, I think it's even, as I've already said again, giving more value to having braille. So, yeah, I mean, braille is definitely, it's been with us in the past, it's with us in the present. And I can tell you now, David, it very, very definitely will be with us in the future. So it's something that we all need to hone in on. And it's something that we are, as blind people, it is something that we need to develop even for our own life skills. Absolutely. And as you touch on there, that kind of need for braille and that want that many people have for different supports around braille. This is something that's been in the works for quite a while, but Vision Ireland is launching a new braille book club. Do you want to tell me a little bit about this? Well, yeah, I mean, you know, obviously, we've always been focused in on the importance of literature and reading and access to reading for blind people from within Vision Ireland. I mean, we already have a number of audio book clubs going, you know, in the greater Dublin area, here in the Cork region, Cork area region, we have an audible book club. So we've always been kind of conscious of the importance for literature and for general reading among the blind community. But what we are about now is we're developing that out and we're spreading that out further to the braille reading community. So we're hoping to have a book club with just an absolute concentration on braille reading. So this is for people who read braille, who would like to be part of, you know, the mushrooming culture of book clubs. So this is going to be a book club exclusively for braille readers. Now, when we started upon this idea, initially, we had the thoughts, OK, what we will do is we will be inclusive of all braille readers. We'll have digital braille readers, people with braille note takers, with digital braille displays. But we will also include hard copy braille readers. And we had an inaugural meeting just last Wednesday night. Now, as it happened, all of the people that turned up for the meeting and Lene from the Division Ireland library was also in attendance with us because we obviously, we understood that we'd have to have a collaboration with the Division Ireland library if we were to successfully launch this braille book club. But as it happened, all of the service users that turned up for the meeting on the night all had digital braille displays or had access to digital braille. So at Lene's, you know, with Lene's good counsel, we were able to suggest that we use Bookshare Ireland as the source for getting the books or, you know, reading material for the braille book club, which was excellent because it just makes it more convenient because we can have as many copies of the book available to our club members as we need. As it happens, I think we've had our nine. We've had our nine people who were anxious to be part of the book club. So we can easily achieve having each person having a digital copy of the braille book that we select. No, if we need to extend that out because we have the book or because we have the Division Ireland library in tow with us, if we do kind of, you know, meet one or two people who would like to join us, but who do not have access to digital braille, then hopefully through the library, we can get them a hard copy of whatever publication we're reading. So even though, as of now, we are exclusively, you know, interacting with digital braille users, if anyone out there would like to join us and who would like to, you know, have the physical tactile touch of an actual braille book, then hopefully we can facilitate people like that as well. So I'm really excited and I think that this is something that could really work for us. And it just kind of goes in hand with our determination to, you know, to develop braille and to promote braille and to promote the reading of braille and to facilitate those who are braille readers to have the experience of being in a book club. I, before last Wednesday night's meeting, I wasn't sure if there were other braille book clubs, you know, in existence. No one of the lads would be far more knowledgeable and experienced braille readers than I am. They, for me, that there are other examples internationally of braille book clubs, which is good because we can obviously kind of get in contact with them and learn from their experiences. But as of now, I'm fairly confident that we can run this book club from within our own resources and with the support of the service users. And I really do think that this is going to be a grand innovation and initiative that I think we can work and that can work here from within our own community of blind braille readers within Vision Ireland. Super stuff. So, Brian, how can people find out more? Where can they sign up all of that good stuff? Who should they be contacting here? Well, I mean, we have, from within Vision Ireland, we have myself, we have Mairead O'Mahoney, or we have Chris, sorry, Peter. Peter, you'll have to remind me of Peter's name there, David. Peter Claridge Bowler? Peter Claridge Bowler. So you can contact any of us, our email addresses are, you know, brian.mahoney.vi.ie or mairead.omahoney.vi.ie. You can just contact braille.vi.ie. Or you can contact Lina in the library. So that would be library.vi.ie. Or, I mean, our work numbers are out there as well. So you can contact us directly through our phone numbers. Mine is 0866081215. So just contact us, register your interest, and we'd be delighted to be in contact with you. And for example, if you did want to go down the road or the Avenue of Digital Braille, then we can support you and we can provide you with any training or technical support that you would require to go down that road. Or again, if you did want to stick to the hard copy kind of road and you did want to have the physical tactile kind of intimate kind of touch of a Braille book, then hopefully through Lina in the library, we might just be able to facilitate you that way as well. So come on, it's a book club. And you know what they say, I mean, a good book is better than any airport gate. You can go anywhere in the world with a good book. So, you know, join us and we'll go traveling for the summer. Absolutely, Brian, I love that. Thank you very much as always. And I must ask, did I exceed your expectations or is David the terrier dog still number one? He's sitting there now as we speak with his parking Braille or he's learning Braille. He wants to be part of the club. Good, good, good, good. Excellent stuff, as he should be. We'll get him onto digital Braille next. Brian, thank you so much as always. Really appreciate it. Thanks, David. Thank you so much to the one and only Mr. Brian Manning and his dog, David. That is fantastic. It's always good to get people on the podcast, but why just get people when you can also get dogs? Can't argue with that. Anyway, moving on. If you do want to send us a voice note with your thoughts, we would love to hear from you. You can get in touch to join that book club. As Brian said, send an email to braille at vi.ie. But you can also just send us your thoughts on WhatsApp. 086-199-0011. Now, though, to catch up on a really cool new app for those learning Braille, I am joined by Mairead O'Mahony. Hello, Mairead. How are you? Hi, David. Good, thanks. How are you? Not too bad. Thank you. So, Mairead, this is a new app, the Page Braille app. I suppose we've talked about Page Braille on the podcast before. I think we had Stuart Lawler on discussing the topic, if I recall. But this is a new app from them under the same name, Page, as in P-A-I-G-E. But this is a new Braille learning app. Mairead, do you want to tell me the details here? What does this app do? Yep. So this is a very good app for learning Braille. It works on iPhones and iPads, really. I'm not sure about Android devices. I don't think it does. But it does work with Braille displays as well, which is really cool. So what it actually does is you can learn Braille. So at the very bottom, you have four different tabs, which is really good. So you have the option to learn Braille, where you have the 26 letters of the alphabet, and you have different things that you can learn as well. So you have 13 chapters altogether in this. But to unlock some of these chapters, you need to pay a one-off fee of $7.99 to unlock some of those chapters and games. So you can do the alphabet without having to pay anything. And then if you want to do things like the numbers, punctuation symbols, you need to unlock for all that. It also has a lot of games as well, a few games. So it has a word game, which it might have five letters in the word, and you have to guess what the word is, which is really, really cool. And it has another game as well, where you have to build different Braille patterns and guess what the letter is, which is very good. And one where you have to guess the, you want to get so many seconds as well to guess the letters, to guess the word, which is really good. So it kind of makes you think on your feet as well. So what is really good about it is you can, it also has a translate option. So I think it's a really good option for anyone who's doing any of the Braille courses, like the uncontracted or contracted Braille, because you can select whether you want grade one or grade two. So it has a translate option where you can type in a sentence. We'll say, like, I am here. And you can select whether you want it in grade one or grade two Braille. And let's just say you select grade two Braille. It'll read out with voiceover what the dots are. So for example, dots two and dots four, dot one, dot one, three, four, dot five, and dot H. It'll read out that if you have it in contracted. And also for somebody who is sighted, for any contractions that are there, they are underlined. So it will show that it will highlight the contractions for sighted people as well. So it's a fun and interactive way of learning, I think. So I suppose the only kind of thing I find with it is I do find it a great way of learning. So like, for example, if I went into maybe, let's say, the first section with the alphabet, you might have maybe about 18 different things where you'd have, like, it might come up dots two, dots three, dot four, dot five. You have to guess the letter. You type it in. Or it might come in with the actual letter. And then you have to type in the dots that make up that letter. So it kind of does a random mix of them all. It might come up with a word. And you have to guess what the word is. So let's just say it said the letter, like, dots two, three, four, five. And I typed in, OK, that's T. Like, if the letter is correct, you kind of have to swipe left until you hear correct. And then you have to double tap on it before it will move on to the next question. So it doesn't automatically kind of move on to the next question or kind of make a bing sound when you're correct. You want to plosmer it. Yeah. I do. I do. I want something like that. But yeah, it is a very good way of learning. So I think it is good for that. Awesome. It sounds very like, if I may say, something like the Duolingo app that people use for languages. But almost treating that and seeing how we can use that gamification to teach people Braille in a really cool way, which is awesome. It is, yeah. Like, another really good feature of it as well is at the bottom, like as I was saying there, you have your different tabs. So you have to learn Braille. You have the library. You have games. And there is settings as well. So you have different tabs at the bottom. And if you go into the library, you can either, like if you're just kind of learning Braille and want to kind of refresh your memory, you can either type a letter that you're looking for. So you can type something like the letter T. And straight away, it will come up dots 2, 3, 4, 5. And it will give a visual representation of the letter as well. Or you could type in a contraction or an at symbol. Or you can all the symbols and letters and things are there in the library as well. So VoiceOver will read those as well. So like, let's say, you double tap on the letter I. It will tell you what dots make that up as well and show them visually. And it will show all the contractions as well. So that's a really kind of good way of learning as well for anyone that's doing it. But I think the games is what makes it really kind of good, you know, because it kind of keeps your mind active. And especially the game where you have only so many seconds to guess it as well. To guess the correct letters and words. I think they're, you know, they're really good for that kind of thing. They're different. Are you good at any of the games? Are you reaching the standards you desire, Mairead? I am with some of them, yeah. Some of them. I'm not great at the Wordle, now I have to admit. Okay, fair enough. It's fantastic though that some of those games are available, you know, but that's awesome. I'm looking here. They've got Daily Braille Wordle, which is awesome. They've got Dot Builder, love that brand as well. Do you know what that game is, Mairead? That game is, you just kind of have to match the patterns with the dot like. So yeah, I wasn't great at that one now, but it is a good one for anyone that likes to try those games. And they've also got Streak Run there as well. I don't know. Yeah, that's the one where you want to get so many seconds to identify, you know, the different letters. Super stuff. And those letters in theory. So you're on a kind of a countdown timer with that. Those can show on a Braille display and stuff as well? They can, yeah. Cause actually, yeah, that's another thing. In the settings menu there, you have a lot of, you know, good accessibility options as well. So if you're connecting it to a Braille display, you would turn on Braille entry mode under the settings there. So, and that'll, you know, let you use your Braille keyboard with that then as well. And everything will come up on the Braille display as well, which is quite good. Especially if you're used to feeling it all the time and not kind of thinking about the dots and letters. Under accessibility, you also have other options as well, like for enabling high contrast, dark mode, light modes. Do you know different things, accessibility options that will help like that as well for people. So it's overall, I think it's a very good game and I think it's well worth the 799, to be honest. Fair play. Well done to the team at Page. That's awesome to see innovation like that. And it's, yeah, it just sounds like an awesome tool. I've known Alts, so fair play. So are you working to improve your Wordle skills, Marid? Yep, I am. I'm definitely gonna improve them. Very good. The New York Times won't know what's hit them by the time you're done. I think they own Wordle now. But there you go. That is awesome stuff. Marid, thank you so much for telling us about that. The Page app, we should say, it's available to download for free on the App Store, but some of those games do cost money, as Marid says there, need not purchase. But that's one time, Marid. Yeah, it's just a one time. One time purchase. Thank you so much. 799. For that, Marid, much appreciated. You can find that on the App Store by searching for Page Braille, P-A-I-G-E, and Braille. So thank you so much, Marid, for that. Thank you. If you do want to share thoughts on your journey learning Braille, or maybe you want to try more things on Braille, why not send us a voice note? You can do that to 086-199-0011. Or if you would like to join one of our upcoming Braille courses, you can send an email to training at vi.ie. We have a few of them coming up as well, Marid, I believe. We do, yeah. So the uncontracted one, which is the beginner's one for anyone who's new to learning Braille is, so that is starting this Friday the 22nd. And then the contracted one, which is the follow-on from the uncontracted. So anyone that has done the uncontracted, that's starting on Friday the 29th from 10 until 11. So if anyone is interested in any of those courses, please send an email to training at vi.ie. Thank you so much, Marid, for that. But now, though, it is time to move on because it is time to catch up on all your latest Talking Technology news with the one and only Mr. Daniel Dunne. This is Talking Technology news. So with your latest Talking Technology news, I'm Daniel Dunne. Elon Musk has lost the lawsuit that he took against chat GPT maker OpenAI. The lawsuit surrounded the founding contract of OpenAI, which was originally set up as a nonprofit, but has since begun the journey of converting into a for-profit business. Ultimately, the jury agreed with OpenAI's lawyers who argued that Musk knew that OpenAI wanted to become a for-profit business as far back as 2017. Therefore, Musk taking the lawsuit happened after the three-year statute of limitations. Basically, he took the case too late. It's expected that OpenAI will now go public later this year with an evaluation of an incredible US$1 trillion. It's worth noting that Elon also owns his own for-profit AI startup called XAI, who developed Grok. Grok has been decently successful, but is still much smaller than other solutions like chat GPT or Anthropix Cloud. It's unclear what difference this lawsuit will actually make, but do you think a nonprofit AI model is a good idea? Would it work better than having everything for profit? Let us know your thoughts with a WhatsApp Vice Note. Samsung is integrating more closely with Google's TalkBack screen reader, as well as introducing a number of new accessibility features. The biggest accessibility update involves Samsung embracing Google TalkBack as part of One UI 9. All of this rolls out, once all of this rolls out, Samsung device users will get updates to TalkBack at the same time as everyone else, rather than needing to wait for Samsung to make their own updates. This will hopefully mean that everything moves a little bit faster. A new option called Text Spotlight has been added that allows a user to select text and then have that text enlarged for them in a floating window. This could be particularly useful for those with low vision who don't want to use something like Select to Speak. New options have also been added that allow someone using a keyboard to control their mouse to adjust the sensitivity level. These might seem like small improvements, but they could make a massive difference to someone who relies on these features. Samsung is one of the most common manufacturers for our Android phones. So these improvements will likely make a big difference. We are expecting lots of accessibility updates this week as Global Accessibility Awareness Day takes place on Thursday. So it's exciting times ahead. And now let's take a look at some of the upcoming courses from Vision Ireland Labs. On May 21st, we have Google Gemini. On May 22nd, we have Uncontracted Braille. On May 26th, we have Smart Living at Home. And in Tullamore in person on the 26th of May, you can attend Discover Metaglasses. On the 27th of May, we have NVDA Navigating Windows. And the following day on the 28th, we have Navigating Websites with NVDA. Also on May 28th, Discover Metaglasses in person at Port Leash. Contracted Braille is on May 29th. And our one-on-one technology support hub is also on May 29th. Then on the 2nd of June, we have Smart Speakers Overview. And Vice Over on iOS on Apple devices is on the 4th of June. So if you are interested in any of these events or want to find out more about them, please do drop an email to training at vi.ie. That's training at vi.ie. And for review of this full list of upcoming events, please visit our website, vi.ie. Select News and Events and Upcoming Events, where you can find out a little bit more. Finally this week, Windows is getting a new feature that will hopefully reduce the amount of times people see the dreaded blue screen of death. If a system gets a faulty driver delivered through Windows Update, Microsoft will now be able to remotely roll back to a previous version. It doesn't appear that Windows will be able to do this on its own without Microsoft rolling back the release, but it will hopefully make Windows more stable in the longer run. A new update to Windows is also introducing customizable start menu sizes, which could be useful for those who have low vision. Traditionally, the size of the start menu was tied to the size of the user's monitors. And while this will still be the case by default, new size options are on the way soon. All of these features, as well as a more customizable taskbar, are now in testing and will likely roll out to Windows users later this year. And that's it for now. If you have a tech news that you want to share with us or have views on any of the stories we covered, please feel free to get in touch with us via a WhatsApp voice note. For now, though, it's back to you, David. Thank you so much, Daniel. Lots to talk about there. The blue screen of death. Is it true that they are changing the... This sounds like a joke, but I promise it's not. Is it true that they are changing the color of the blue screen of death to have it as a black color as opposed to just blue now? Is that a thing? David, I don't know. That's news to me now. I haven't heard of that. But yeah, it bemuses me where the blue screen of death pops up. I have seen it on ATMs. I've seen it on airports. I've seen it in McDonald's. That's so funny. So there's plenty of places the dreaded blue screen of death shows up. And it's a terrible thing for your computer just to fall over. And it was a particular big problem back in the earlier versions of Windows. I think there was a Windows Millennium Edition at one time, which was absolutely notorious for this blue screen of death or BSOD as it was abbreviated. And I tell you, for someone who's reliant on a screen reader, it's very difficult because obviously when Windows just crashes out, everything stops. So your audio is gone and nobody has any way of knowing if they're a screen reader user totally reliant on a screen reader. They have no way of knowing what has happened. I was working away. You know, as your NVDA was talking or a narrator, whatever it is you use. And nice thing, everything just went. And computer just starts up and scratch again, hopefully. And it comes back on and maybe you're lucky that you're not caught. Sometimes you can get caught in what's known as blue screen of death loop, where your computer just keeps restarting blue screen, restarting blue screen, and there's no audio feedback whatsoever. So yeah, I think what that blue screen of death was missing was some sort of audible cue as well. You know, like a loud whistle or something. Or something more catastrophic, like... Yeah, exactly. Or just the windows shutting down sound but edited in some way. Do you know the old Windows XP one, the doo doo doo doo? But yeah, that's fascinating. And the blue screen of death has also almost become in a weird way, iconic in its own way. You see it with memes and stuff like that now, which is gas. What a weird thing to become iconic, a Windows technology error screen. But there you go. So somebody had a clip up of, you know, aliens invading Earth and they went inside their spaceship and one of the screens had a blue screen of death on it. So yeah, it's kind of gone, you know, a bit of a cultural meme, I guess. Absolutely, very funny stuff. We didn't touch on it there in the news, but there was also Bank of Ireland warning about companies and shops, actually, with in-person payment terminals, saying one price verbally, but then actually having another price on the terminal. So when someone taps their card or their Apple Pay or whatever the case may be, that they're getting charged for more than was actually spoken. This is Bank of Ireland warning about this. That's very bad form, isn't it, Daniel? Absolutely, look. It might say illegal, by the way. Yeah, like I can understand in very busy environments, you know, where, you know, it's so busy and everyone's at a rushed pace that, you know, so the person charged and obviously has to manually input the price on the credit card terminal or the bank card terminal as it is now. And yeah, like the errors, the simple errors can be made. But, you know, if it's, yeah, like it's, if you really are putting your trust in the person in the cashier or the shop teller or whatever, you know, that they've entered the right amount, that they've communicated the correct amount to you. Errors can happen, but, you know, if it's really happening a lot at a particular place or, you know, and you start to question, is there more malintent going on? And like, it is no different than, you know, handing in, let's say, 20 euro note and you're getting back the change for 10. That can happen, but, you know, it's, yeah, it's very disappointing because it's not something, at least when you're handing in the 20 euro note and maybe you get back to change of 10 and you're expecting the change of 20, you still have in your hand, you can kind of count and you can go back on it. But when it's tapped, you know, there's no, unless you get, you know, a lot of places will not give you the printout, there's a printout that comes out of the machine. Lots of places don't bother with that unless you specifically request it or they may even ask you, do you want the receipt? And you must be just say, no, I'd want another bit of paper going around my pocket. So unless you have that and engage in that, you're really nothing to go back and check on, you know? And I always get nervous about being double charged. You know, like, you know, I was in actually, and I don't want to pick on this particular industry, but I was in a taxi the other day and I was paying by card in the taxi and the person in the taxi told me, oh, it doesn't seem to have worked, try again. And in fairness to him, in that case, he was being honest with me, it genuinely hadn't worked for whatever reason. But when you're in that position, it's easy to get nervous because he could have very, very easily pulled the wool over my eyes there, you know? And it's very hard for me to check because sometimes you won't get that notification from your Revolut or your AIB or your Bank of Ireland straight away. So, you know, it's very easy to get stuck with something like this, you know? Yeah, now there is, I use the Bank of Ireland and in fairness, there's a piece in it, you know, when you log in onto the home screen, there are all these little tips and little cards, let's say, information cards, and I've seen it a few times come up. Have you been charged twice? Do you want to, and it'll actually scan through, you know, your last two months of purchases, it'll identify where, you know, you got charged twice, what it thinks could be charged twice for, you know, for the same purchase. Yeah. And, you know, particularly, I just, you know, if you're out for a pint or a cup of coffee, maybe you got a second cup or a second pint, and it's obviously going for the same price. So it picks up on all these just to make sure, you know, it said, oh, we know if you're in this cafe, you paid, you know, 380 twice, was that double charging? It kind of brings you to that on the app. So, yeah, you know, hats off to Bank of Ireland for putting that in. I think it's a very good feature. Interestingly, one where I come up personally for me was in a petrol station, there was two charges, both one was for getting a small bit of diesel, and the other was for getting petrol for the lawnmower, and they actually worked out pretty much the same. Yeah. So that explained that, but still it was good to say, hmm, actually, I wonder what happened there. Oh, yeah, that's, you know, you wouldn't think back. That was the day I topped up the lawnmower. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go. So just be aware of that, people. Bank of Ireland's warning about it, obviously, not something that you need to necessarily panic about, but just to be aware of it. So yeah, there you go. And Joe, an exciting week on the accessibility front. There are loads of updates usually come around this week. Global Accessibility Awareness Day is on Thursday. So we're expecting stuff from Apple, and we're expecting stuff from some other companies potentially. But we don't know what to expect just yet, but exciting times. Yeah, usually we get an announcement, and sometimes they come a few days early, just before Global Accessibility Day, but not yet. And hopefully before the end of the week, we'll have something exciting to report on. But yeah, Samsung, as we've heard their talk back now, will be kind of integrated with Samsung, or Samsung will be interested in the talk back, we'll say, their screen reader. So the updates will happen a bit more seamlessly now. Also, if anybody has a Samsung Smart TV, that's also recently received an update. So you can expect it to work a bit more smoother, and some of the TVs will receive audio description better than they used to, because audio description comes through a different track, you see. I can't guarantee this, but I've seen it have been reported that audio description is working better on terrestrial TV. But look, I suppose wherever you're getting it from, it might be a different stream coming in. So we'll have to hear back on people's experiences in the next few weeks. Super stuff. Yeah, it's great to see updates for these things, and hopefully we'll get some nice new accessibility features and continue moving in the right direction. So yeah, great stuff there. And any thoughts there before we wrap up, Joe? On Elon Musk, they're losing that court case with OpenAI, who seemingly want to now take a lawsuit against Apple. OpenAI, again, reportedly wanting to take a lawsuit against Apple. But they love their lawyers, all of these companies, Joe, all these big companies, they love their lawyers. Yeah, they're the men that are making all the money from this, but I think Elon Musk is kind of annoyed that he's not in the OpenAI bracket anymore. I know he has his own grok system going there, but he's obviously trying to get under OpenAI's skin, and I don't see it stopping anytime soon. So it's also reported that he might go back in again for more court cases against OpenAI. But anyway, OpenAI are also, or the ChatGPT one of them, is also upset with Apple, because Apple have, they expected to make more money and get more subscriptions from Apple, but they didn't. Kind of Apple have their system so locked down, I suppose, that it didn't rebound in that way. But Apple still get the benefits of where people can use Siri to ask ChatGPT questions, and still get an answer, you know what I mean? You kind of get the best of both worlds. You get to use Siri and kind of use the ChatGPT free service, if you know what I mean, through that way. So yeah, they're not getting the return they wanted out of it, and they're thinking of bringing it to court as well. So hopefully that doesn't mess up the fact that the next update from Siri promises to be a whole lot better. So we'll see, we'll just watch this space. Absolutely, watch this space indeed. But yeah, as you said, Joe, it's definitely the lawyers making the money, so more power to them. But there you go, thank you all so much for listening. That is our show for this week. If you do want to check out some of the courses, you can, as Daniel said earlier, go to the upcoming events section, the upcoming events section, that is, of our Vision Ireland website, vi.ie. And you can also get in touch with us on any topic that you want by sending us an email to content at vi.ie, and we would love to hear from you. We will be back in two weeks time with more from Talking Technology. But a reminder as well, before you go, do sign up to our newsletter. You can do that by searching the labs newsletter sign up from Vision Ireland. You can just search for it and do sign up. You can do it through the website as well, or just give us a ring and we'll get you signed up, or send us an email and we'll get you signed up. We're always covering loads of stuff that will be coming out on Thursday. And hopefully by then we will know more about some of those announcements for Global Accessibility Awareness Day. So if you want to stay up to date, that is how you do it. But for now, thank you so much for listening. We'll be back in two weeks time and do stay safe. Thanks for listening to the Talking Technology podcast with VI Labs. If you'd like to support our show, please visit vi.ie slash donate. Talking Technology is proudly sponsored by IA Labs, the market leader in digital accessibility services. 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