Chapters 13-14 | Gospel of Mark

On Today’s show, I’m joined by Brianna Wilkerson and Bailey Welch-Pomerantz. 

In her business Made Well, 345 LLC, Brianna Wilkerson is a Holistic Health and Life Coach, wife and momma, chai tea lover and at-home crossfitter. She helps women find peace with food, feel confident in their bodies again, and develop a healthy lifestyle that’s more than just about their weight.  She is also an Essential Oils Advocate for doTERRA Essential Oils and loves helping women to use essential oils in simple, fun and effective ways for their health, home and family. Outside of that, she's an Elder, Microchurch Leader, Worship Leader, and on the Board with the Underground Network Inc, a collective community focused on empowering small expressions of the church in cities and around the world.

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz is a writer and professional question-asker committed to empowering you to create radically inclusive communities. She is a queer Christian, podcast host, advocate, and creator of Making Room on the Pew: a podcast and book meant to begin a movement focused on fostering reconciliation between minority communities and the Christian Church through respectful, grace-filled conversations about faith, the Bible, and community. 

The three of us get together to talk about what theological debates really matter, our soft spot for Judas, and how remembering that the disciples were also Jesus’ friends might change our point of view on the stories.

If you enjoyed our discussion, I’d love if you would rate + review on your favorite podcast player. This helps more people to find the show and learn with us. 

Then come on over to social media and let’s talk about it! You can find me on Instagram @kateboyd.co and on Twitter @thekateboyd. And don’t forget to check the show notes to find and follow today’s contributors as well. Thank YOU for joining us, and I’ll see you next time.

If you find yourself in the messy middle as a Christian, you’re not alone, and I’d love to help. I’ve created the Untidy Faith newsletter just for you. Together, we'll navigate the many tensions of the Christian life and in the process find ourselves wandering closer to the Way of Jesus. When you sign up, you'll get a printable version of the Messy Middle Christian manifesto to your inbox today and first access to more Untidy Faith resources as they come out. You can sign up today at kateboyd.co/newsletter

Kate Boyd - Book | Newsletter | Instagram | Twitter

Transcript

Kate Boyd: 0:10

You're listening to happy and holy the podcast where scripture comes to life through a small group discussion. This season as we talk through the rough and tumble Gospel of Mark, you get to be a fly on the wall and see what new things we learn with and from one another as we engage scripture and community. I'm your host, Kate Boyd. I'm a disciple maker, writer and speaker who's making space in the church for Christians caught in the messy middle between loving the church and leaving it. We love Jesus, love people and work with God and each other for a better world. Welcome to the show. If you find yourself in the messy middle as a Christian, you're not alone. There are a lot of us out there and I love to help. I've created the untidy faith newsletter just for you. Together, we'll navigate the many tensions of the Christian faith, and then the process find ourselves wandering closer to the way of Jesus. When you sign up, you'll get a printable version of the messy middle Christian manifesto sent to your inbox today, instantly, and you get first access to more untidy faith resources as they may come out, as well as that monthly newsletter. You can sign up today at Kate boyd.co slash newsletter. On today's show, I'm joined by Brianna Wilkerson and Bailey Welch Pomerance and the three of us get together to talk about what theological debates really matter, our soft spot for Judas, and how remembering that the disciples were also Jesus's friends might change our point of view on some of the stories. So let's jump into it. Hello, and welcome, everyone, as we are jumping in to mark chapters 13 and 14, and I am joined by some friends today. And I'll let them introduce themselves. Bailey, why don't we start with you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 1:49

Yeah, my name is Bailey. I'm a writer, a podcast host. And I like to say I'm a professional question asker. And I really value that part of myself that is really curious. And so I was actually born and raised on my family's farm in the middle of nowhere, Ohio, and a really tight knit family. And I still dream of moving back there and building my dream house. My Pinterest board has all of the evidence. But for right now I live in New Jersey with my wife Sarah, and our two cats. I am also the director of Christian education at my church. So I spent a lot of time writing Sunday school curriculum, and adding a ton of glitter to every craft, which my Sexton at church doesn't love, but the kids love, so I'm gonna keep doing it. Um, yeah, that's me in a nutshell.

Kate Boyd: 2:50

So fun. And Brianna, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Brianna Wilkerson: 2:54

Yeah, so I'm Brianna. I'm originally from the Cayman Islands. But I live in Tampa, Florida. Now, I am a health coach primarily. And I just love helping women find peace with food and feel confident in their bodies and develop a healthy lifestyle that's more than about their weight. So that's what I do. When I'm not taking care of my little one year old, who is very energetic. She's a gift, but she's keeps me on my toes. I mean, my husband, we moved back to Florida to work with our church here. And so he's continuing to work on it with our church, and I kind of just serve on the board and a governing elder right now. So it was an elder right now, not on the governing elder level. I don't know if I want to be there to deal with a lot of different stuff. But um, yeah, so yeah,

Kate Boyd: 3:32

that's a little bit about us. Well, I'm so glad you guys are here. I, I feel like I save this every week. But Mark, 13 and 14 are just like crazy action packed chapters, because that's just how Mark rolls. And so obviously, we're going to start with chapter 13. And Bailey, will you recap the action for chapter 13 for us as we get started?

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 4:00

Sure. It's so funny, I was very amused when I saw that this is the chapter that we were going to be talking about today. Because I It is no secret I talk about all the time that this is my least favorite passage in most of the Bible like this. Well, Chapter 13 is rough for me. Um, but it's still in, it's in Scripture. And that's a good enough reason to study it. So let's dive in. Chapter 13 is the story of Jesus explaining the end of the world to His disciples. So as Jesus and his disciples were leaving the temple, a disciple doesn't say which one was marveling at the beauty of the temple and the other buildings around it. And this prompts Jesus to say that all of these buildings will be destroyed. And then the story kind of skips like we know Mark moves real fast and to Jesus sitting on this Mount of Olives across from the temple with Peter, James, john and Andrew. And this is when Jesus really launches into kind of sermon about the end times. And he talks about the things he describes as the beginning of birth pains. And he talks about people who will claim to be Jesus and false prophets who will perform science and miracles. And he talks about I think the big one that I at least heard a lot growing up was wars and rumors of wars, and earthquakes, famines, those who follow Jesus will be arrested and put on trial, he'd really just kind of goes through a lot of really terrible things. I mean, it sounds awful. And then he, and then Jesus wraps up this portion of his monologue by saying that, and he's told His disciples everything ahead of time, so that they might be ready for it. And then he starts to talk about coming back to Earth, quoting those quoting Isaiah, you know, more stuff about this sign will be darkened, the moon will not give off light. And Jesus says that he will return in clouds with great power and glory, and gather the elect. And then it ends with Jesus just saying, No one knows when this is going to happen, not even the angels or Jesus Himself. A lot of mystery in there.

Kate Boyd: 6:21

So much mystery. So what is it about chapter 13? That you don't really like?

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 6:27

You know, I grew up evangelical? I'm pretty Calvinistic, I would say, um, so I see a lot of anger in this in this chapter. You know, like, I think that I was really pointed to this chapter, so that I would follow Jesus out of fear, rather than out of love and adoration. And it was more of like, this is what you're going to face if you don't believe what we believe. And, you know, it was that whole era of the end times the left, hi, hi, thank you. Yes, the left behind series. You know, I, I take a lot of things pretty literally, sometimes I think, um, and so when I was little, I remember like, lying in bed, praying the center's prayer, which is what, you know, we thought would save us this specific prayer, and I would just like, lay in bed and just pray over and over again, in case I died before the next day, like it was just, it was a lot of fear for me. And it's taken a lot of time to really like dig into what I was taught what the Bible actually says, The Heart of Jesus, you know, how God wants us to feel about the end times? Yeah, so this is just part one.

Kate Boyd: 8:02

I can definitely relate to that. I also grew up evangelical and still have my foot in that world a lot. I would say, I'm probably on the fringe of that at this point. But definitely understanding and, you know, like you left behind was really scary for me, I actually couldn't even read those books, because they were so scary for me. Don't even think about any of that, you know, Last Judgement. And if I'm in and if all of that, like matters, and what that looks like, it was just too scary. And like you like I in junior high, I went through a phase where you know, every night I was like, Am I saved? Am I saved and looking for that assurance, and like praying to be saved. And so I definitely relate like, even though I loved Jesus, I always wondered if it was enough for a while. And yeah, so that fear, I get it. It was definitely a part of my upbringing. Brianna, did you have sort of the same experience? Or was it different for you?

Brianna Wilkerson: 9:02

I definitely experienced some of that, right. Like, I actually don't even know I fully understood the passage. It just felt like Yeah, I just felt like the it is the end of the world. And it just, you know, when you watch these war movies, you're just like, they're fighting, fighting, and you're like, is this now so every time I think I think about this passage, even when growing up, it's like, you know, people in your environment in your church, just like it's happening now. And then like, 20 years later, it's happening now. And so you're kind of like, is it happening now? Or is it an extended period? So there's just a lot of questions around, it's just like, what I should be looking for, what should I do? Like, how do I make sure that I'm like, good, you know, so I think it's very similar to what you're saying, I don't know, if I had as much fear of like, I wasn't going to necessarily, I felt like I felt like I wasn't, I'm gonna go up. I'm not gonna be left behind. But it did bring a lot of questions like are people that do people that love are they going to be left behind? So yeah, a lot of questions, I think, come up from this passage for me.

Kate Boyd: 9:54

Yeah. So maybe let's talk through some of what we read and see if I don't know if it helps with our questions or not. So we'll start with the destruction of the temple because that's sort of where he starts. And then we'll go maybe into the foretelling of the persecution, because I think that's a big part here. So yeah, what jumped out at you guys, whenever y'all were reading through this particular passage about those things?

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 10:20

I guess, okay, I guess this may not be at the beginning. But I, when I was reading this chapter, I kept reading it over and over again, and I kept thinking, like, was the goal of putting this chapter in the Bible? Was it based on fear? Or is that just all about me? Does that make sense? Does? Did Jesus mean it to be scary? Or even taking Jesus? out of it? Mark, or the people who put scripture together? You know, was there a goal of fear? Or was this just Hey, this is what happens. And we're gonna put it in here. And it kind of snowballed into, you know, as theology progressed, as people started thinking differently about heaven. And hell is that when everyone started focusing on this passage as like, hey, if you don't believe in Jesus, this is what's going to happen to you.

Kate Boyd: 11:30

Yeah, so I guess I feel like it's more eschatological. Like, I'm, I'm not afraid of this kind of stuff now. And maybe that's something that has changed. As you know, I've grown up and learned more. And as my view of the end of the world has become different than the left behind version that I was given. So yeah, I mean, I don't I guess now I don't see it so much as a scary thing as an awareness thing. Like, if a scary thing is going to happen, you know, would you rather know about it or not know about it this like, challenging thing? So yeah, I don't read it as scary anymore. And because I don't know, I like knowledge. And I like that awareness of like, What's going to happen? And that we know that good stuff, the best stuff is on the other side of even this hard stuff. Yeah. So I'm not sure how that affects why it's included, because we know that similar stuff was included in Matthew in some chapters. And so it seems to certainly be a part of what Jesus was doing or teaching about, you know, in the temple around the temple close to the end of his life while he was here, so it's definitely part of his core curriculum for lack of a better example, Breanna, how about you? How do you read this?

Brianna Wilkerson: 12:56

Yeah, I think for me, I it's almost like what when I was reading it, asking myself, why place it even now. So I mean, I think I asked similar questions where you guys asked me, but like, why? Mark 13? After like, he sent all this with the disciples right before the Passover. Is it like, Is he really trying to tell the disciples something about what's going to happen with them? When he's gone? You know, he talks about, like, everyone will hate you, because of me. He's like, the stand firm, he's like, are like, Okay, this is a great pep talk. Alright, you know, and just like, I think it was almost just like, he wasn't going to be around and tell the disciples this stuff. So it is kind of what you guys are saying, it's just like, this is what's going to happen, but know that it's supposed to happen, and just continue to stand firm, you know? So yeah, but I mean, so like, so reading it, I don't necessarily know if it instills fear now, as you're just saying, but I think I just leave with a lot more questions like, okay, he was talking to the disciples at this time, but what does it have for me? Like, what is he trying to say to me, given this context of everything?

Kate Boyd: 14:01

Yeah. I think another important level of context, and I think this is something that you sort of touched on, Bailey is that mark is writing to, you know, this in the late first century, you know, to the early church, like, so this is stuff that's happening to them, they're like in the midst of this. And I think that Jesus's words about how this is coming, and how it's part of what it means to follow me. I think it may have given some hope, or some comfort or something in the midst of what the early church was facing, you know, to remind them of what it means and to be there with it, you know, because it wasn't what they were going through. You know, it wasn't pretty, what they were facing was like really, really hard. Not, not pretty?

Brianna Wilkerson: 14:57

No, no, and all the disciples like this came True for almost all of them, right? Yeah. So Oh,

Kate Boyd: 15:03

yeah. I mean, they gave their lives. And they did it willingly. I mean, I don't think anybody wants to or like volunteers to give their lives but they did do it when confronted with that choice. And I guess I don't want to say that they weren't scared because they probably were. But I think that this may have had something to do with it. Like maybe it was sort of, you know, warning them of like the opposite of the prosperity gospel like suffering happens. And just because you're suffering doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong. So yeah, maybe hearing it, it's supposed to happen is a comfort to those for whom it's actually happening in the moment.

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 15:49

Yeah, I've never thought of it that way. But as you were talking, I was thinking about a quote, I don't know where I heard it, heard it, somewhere from someone. And it was basically saying, the opposite of fear is not courage, the opposite of fear is knowledge. Maybe that's, you know what this was to have, like, you don't have to be scared of everything you're going to see. Because here, I'm going to tell you that these things are supposed to be happening. So that, you know, redemption for all things so that the new heaven and the new earth can come about eventually.

Kate Boyd: 16:27

I like that. I mean, I am an enneagram. Five, so any reason to amass more knowledge is always going to be alright with me. Okay, so we've talked about the destruction of the temple and persecution, but then there's a little bit more to this chapter, you know, he's talking about Son of Man uses words like abomination of desolation, and gives some lessons from a fig tree. So yeah, what from this back half? Sort of jumped out at you guys are like, What questions do you have that would be helpful to talk about?

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 17:06

Yes. Um, so let's get real gritty. And people do well, however they want to feel. But because I grew up, pretty Calvinist, all I could think through this is predestination, because I kept seeing the word elect, you know, like, all through it says, you know, the chosen or will gather the elect, or the elect, well, for the elect, all the time, that were just kept jumping out at me. And I was thinking about, what did Jesus actually mean? Obviously, we're not gonna know, who knows what Jesus actually meant by the elect. But I think that it's an interesting thought, because so many predestination teachers point to this passage. And similarly, Mark, on day 22, where it was talking about how, you know, many are invited, but few are chosen, you know, it's that same Greek, Greek word chosen and the elect. So we we have our ideas, I certainly have the ideas that were taught to me of these are who the elect are. But I'm just wondering, like, who did Jesus mean? Who did the disciples think, you know, did the disciples think, oh, that's us?

Kate Boyd: 18:39

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good question. And to your point, we won't know and, you know, ever and I, I think also maybe, like, once we do know that we won't care, you know, like, I just don't see myself standing around in the new heaven and new earth like arguing about that. And I think it's really hard sometimes to have conversations about a term like, elect because it means so many different things in so many different people, that it can we can really miss each other, like in those conversations. I mean, just had conversations today on Twitter, about Calvinism and what people like and don't like or consider important or not. And, and there's just so much back and forth, and disagreement and about all these things. Like we're always talking about the stuff and, and honestly, and I don't, I don't know what this means about me as a theologian. But I'm to a certain point, I'm not sure that it matters, you know, like, I think it matters that we do work in discipleship. I think it matters that we make disciples. I think it matters that we share Jesus that we share the gospel, but I'm not sure that it matters exactly who and in which way, people are the elect. You know what I mean? Like, those arguments can get so granular because you start getting into like order of salvation and how did God planet? And what did he do it do and how did he do it? And I love that people love to think about those things. I love to think about those big things too. But at a certain point, like, I'm not sure that that matters for us to be able to do the work that we're called to do it to be able that we have to understand all of that stuff. So yeah, I think it's important to keep that in perspective. But again, to sort of your point, I'm curious to, from a cultural perspective, what would have been noted for them when Jesus is talking about, you know, chosen or elect? You know, I'm curious what, who they would have thought is in or what that means to be included in a term like that? Certainly, I would think that the disciples themselves would count, but, um, or would think that they were in being right there. But yeah, I don't know.

Brianna Wilkerson: 21:02

It's almost so like, yeah, it's hard to know exactly what the electors are, who's in that. And maybe that's the whole thing about this passage and whole thing behind left behind, like, are you going to be a part of the elect, right? But it's almost like Jesus is like, kind of giving you a way to not make sure you're in there. But when he keeps just this is what came up for me just keeps talking about like, keep watch stand guard, you don't know the hour, you don't know the time. So it's almost like helping us figure out what is what does it mean to keep watch? What does it mean to stand guard? And if we do that, will we be a part of that elect? Well, we know so i guess then you can also get a little bit insecure. Like, am I doing it? Right? am I standing guard? Right? Am I keeping the watch? Right? So maybe that helps answer the question. I don't know. But yeah, I just think in this towards the end of this passage where he just talks about you don't know the hour, you don't know the time. It just really makes me like not scared. But it does make me ask myself, am I doing what I know, I look at this stage in my discipleship, being a Christian for so many years. Am I doing what I know, I need to do what he's calling me to it in order to stand guard or am I just kind of like cokes? Am I sleeping? When he's about to knock on the door? You know? Um, yeah. So I think that's just a question that I had, as I was looking like, what is it? You know, we don't know, the hour. So how do I know if I'm keeping watch? How do I know if I'm standing guard? The way I should?

Kate Boyd: 22:23

Yeah. And I think, you know, we've been talking about how the opposite of fear is knowledge. And so, you know, I think what we're seeing is like, here's what's going to happen, and here's what you can do about it. Like, stay awake, did stuff in all the ships, you know, at midnight at koco at dawn and evening, like those are the ships that people would actually work watches. So he's saying, like, all the time, like this is happening, keep doing it anyway, like, keep doing all the things that I've been talking about, and all the things that I've been showing you like this whole time. And, like it feels so like, if we're gonna go big picture, excuse me, it feels like you know, Mark, the whole time has been showing how the disciples are messing up, right? They're like, constantly frustrating, and disappointing. Jesus. And so I think it could definitely be part of the narrative here. Like, he's saying, like, get it together, like, there will be a time when I'm not going to be here. So you guys need to get it together and do better. I mean, even in the next chapter, you know, here he's saying, stay awake, like Be alert, keep watch. In the next chapter, we're gonna see Jesus like walking in while they're literally sleeping, when he asked them to do that. So like, I think the whole time mark is showing what to do, like Jesus is talking about it. And we're seeing the disciples always sort of as the example of what not to do, like, have them doing the opposite. And I mean, even as an example, like if we're like, if we skip ahead to the end of the book, Mark, chapter 16. And we see like, where it cuts off, or if the earliest manuscripts anyway, where it cuts off. Like we see them walking away in fear, you know, instead of doing what they're supposed to be doing, because Jesus is alive. And yeah, so I do think there is like an awareness piece that is trying to, like get through the head of the disciples, that even though we're seeing them not get it in Mark, like, Jesus is really trying to hammer home that like this is really important to do. And Mark is not not very kind to them. And in the depiction, you know, they're sort of, like I said, the bad example. And we're supposed to do the opposite of that. So I do think there is part of that probably happening here too, like we've been talking about. Okay, so any Anything else in chapter 13? Before we roll on to chapter 14? No. still wondering. We're just still wondering. Yeah, I think I think that's what's hard. Yeah. I mean, that's what's hard about something like that. Because it's more. And yeah, it hasn't happened yet, like on one level for them, like the temple has been destroyed. But on another level, it may mean something more something that's like in the future. So there's definitely a part here. That's a mystery. And as we look at what's to come, and I don't love that any more than anybody else is, um, you know, I would love for there to be a solid answer. But yeah, I don't I don't know that we're afforded that here. So, okay, let's switch gears. Go to chapter 14. Breanna, do you have a recap for us? Because there's more action in chapter 14 here? Yeah, there's a lot of shifting of the story. Yeah. So going on. Yeah.

Brianna Wilkerson: 25:59

So at this point, you know, the Passover is coming up. And I would say like, if you read the context of markets, like, they're kind of like in hiding at this point, like him and his disciples, because it's, you know, talks about in verse two, like they're there, they want to arrest Jesus in secret and kill him kill him. So they can't find him. You know, he was in the public, he was in the public courts in the temple for a long time. But now he's kind of in hiding, because they're trying to arrest him. But then they're at it starts the chapter starts with them being at a lepers house. So, you know, bring some questions like is Was he a leper? Or is he still a leper, because if he's still a leper, I'm pretty sure you won't be wouldn't be at his house, but we're assuming that maybe he's healed or is someone that Jesus healed. And then a woman comes and just basically takes this very expensive jar of perfume that, um, if you look at the commentaries would have been like a lot of money, a lot of money and just kind of like, pours it out Jesus and his disciples, who he actually just taught, like, you know, the poor will be among you care for them. They're just like, what are you doing, this is such a waste of money. And he just, like kind of corrects them, because he's, you know, he's saying that you're kind of missing the point, she did what she could in order to prepare me for my burial. And we'll get into the context of all that, but basically, per doing that, is it there's a statement here that really, this is what got me on my rabbit trail, just that she's going to be remembered whenever the gospel is told she's going to be remembered this particular story. Um, and then Judas comes and basically goes to the chief priests who are looking kill Jesus betrays him and saying, Hey, I'll hand him over to you. And then they go and make preparations for the Passover. Jesus has like some secret agents or something like that saying, like, just go to this man. Tell him this, and he'll prepare place for you. And at this Passover, God, Jesus, basically, like one of you are going to betray me. And they're like, No, no, no, surely not me. And they all say that, and he's like, no, one of you is going to betray me. And then later on, he actually then I think, talks about how they all are going to betray him and leave him and desert him. It's really looking really good for them right now. And he just talks about again, he's been preparing them for like the truth of like, all this, this is going to happen when the world ends, but I'm going to be delivered over and I'm going to be killed and murdered. And then he is Oh, then they go to the garden. persimmony and as you were just talking about Kate that they're supposed to be praying and his history disciples must be praying and the art and you know, before that he talks talks to Peter about your going to the gym he was like surely surely not me. But when the crow goes three times and then yeah, Judas comes in they This is very common phrase that he betrays him with the kiss kisses Jesus and saying, this is the one that disciples tried to like fight cuts off the high priests here, Jesus healed him. And then everyone flees, and then this odd little exit reports like this man runs away naked. And then yeah, they're just kind of putting Jesus on trial. And I what I think is interesting here is she was like, no one can actually be can't get all the eyewitnesses to line up. And that was a very important part of them condemning someone. And then it's almost like Jesus condensed himself when he says, like, I am this and they're like, that's it. That's all we need blasphemy. And it condemn him worthy his death and then at the end just ends with not only Judas betrayal, but Peter denying him three times. So a lot of action packed chapter.

Kate Boyd: 29:37

I know it's it's a very different experience reading jeffer 13. And there's a lot to get to so yeah, so the plot to kill Jesus. They've been plotting to kill him basically since the beginning of Mark. But they don't want to make a big deal of it at the festival because people like him now. So yeah, so the anointing at Bethany, let's talk about the story. Cuz I love this story. How do you how do y'all find the story? What do you think?

Brianna Wilkerson: 30:07

I think this one's interesting because I do think it's one of the ones when we talk about like worship or just like sacrificial worship. This is a passage that comes up. But I just think it's interesting because some some commentators also say that it's it might be Mary like the Marian the mock the Martha, the sister there, and just like how she might have been the only one that understood what was happening. Because it does seem like a very odd thing like a random woman coming at the lepers house and just like, throwing this on here. So I almost for me, when I read this, like, what does she get that I don't get? What does she get the like, understand that the disciples don't understand? And what's the true symbolization of this, you know, anointing him for burial. And I think this this passage, this story is from the whole thing kind of leaves me just like this is, this is something I would love to do, but I just need to understand it more like what does this mean? Yeah.

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 31:02

It's, it's interesting to me, every time I read this story, I just think, how passionate this woman was, like I see so much passion in this story. during Lent, this year, I read through Joshua and Mark, and I was reading a devotional on this passage, talking about the woman who poured the perfume, and Judas, and it's kind of simplistic. I think Judas has a lot more going on than this. But basically, this devotional, put it side by side and said, this woman who anointed Jesus gave everything she had, you know, her most prized possession, just to do what she knew, was right, you know what, what Jesus was calling her to do. And so she gave this extravagant gift. And then Judas was busy looking for momentary gain with getting the money that he was going to get from betraying Jesus. And again, I think there's a lot more with Judas going on. And I'm sure we'll talk about it, but just that idea of putting those two side by side does make me think, you know, how, how easy it is for us even to to look for momentary gain of just like, who want to be really simplistic about it, like, skipping my prayer time in the morning, because I want to get to work early, you know, simple things like that of, are we looking for momentary gain what we want to do what the world tells us to do? Or are we focusing on living a life that Christ has called us to live?

Kate Boyd: 33:00

Yeah, the way you put that about giving all she had, it reminded me of something I read in the notes in my Bible about this appointment was probably worth a year's wages, which is a lot of money. Um, and, and even sort of thinking about, you know, for looking back in Mark, it sort of reminded me of some of the imagery at the end of chapter 12, where he talks about the widows offering, and how she gave out of her poverty, and they gave out of like, their abundance, or whatever. So there may even still be some imagery he's trying to pull through and this another thing that I found interesting was that it says he was anointed for burial. But the way she anointed him is also consistent with how they anointed kings. So like we've been talking about, she's seeing something she's recognizing on a different level than everyone else there. Which also kind of like makes sense, given what we know about the disciples and what they recognize. And it goes back to what you were saying, Breanna about that she's seeing something else that she gets more about what's happening. That even as she annoyance and death, she's anointing as royalty. Because there there is that peace, that through his death, we get the liberation of the Jewish people, of course, but even all of us, right, and that's when like the kingdom breaks in. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot. And they use it a lepers house, which I think you brought up, I think is interesting, which says to me that the leper probably was healed, because he has a house and people are there or, I mean, I guess it could just be that the people with Jesus don't care because Jesus doesn't seem to care. But lepers were typically cast out of the community. So in my head, I imagined that he was healed as well. So yeah, another person in maybe the circle of people who followed Jesus fairly regularly, because you don't just hang out on anyone's house, you know? Okay. And, yeah, like y'all said, it's really interesting. And in mark that this woman doesn't have a name, but he says that everyone will know her. And even if we look to the end of the book, in chapter 16, we see that the ones who come to anoint his body and burial are the women. So they're the ones who stick around through the crucifixion. And Mark, Mark doesn't name a lot of women, but they're definitely present at a lot of the crucial moments in the life of Jesus, which is interesting, considering the Bible is a document written in a patriarchal society. Yes.

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 35:57

Yeah. I love when reading through stories, looking at the women, and you're right, even if they're not named, I mean, these are spiritual giants, if you want to, you know, talk about them in that way of, of, there's so much we can learn. I, this is someone who I have like, on my list of people that I want to, you know, I don't know, have coffee with in heaven. It's like this woman. I mean, there's lots of people, but this is one that I'm like, I don't know her name. I have no idea who she is. But this story, I think, is so beautiful. And it makes me want to know her and to know what she knows.

Kate Boyd: 36:46

Yeah, because I mean, it presumably she didn't have any more access than the disciples did to Jesus somehow receiving the same or maybe less information than them. And she's still the one in the story who seems to get it the most, you know,

Brianna Wilkerson: 37:04

I think the verse eight two, when she talks about when she talks about, she did what she could, I think that's just a very interesting phrase. I remember sitting this with a group of people, actually a few, maybe a few weeks before we did this, and that phrase just stood out to me like, in going back to what you're saying with the, the woman, the widow, and just like giving what she could like, seem almost like what she could in this moment was basically, an actually very, I was it was abundant. It was a lot, actually. Yeah. But I think I just wonder, like, why did Jesus say that? Like? Because you usually when you say you give what you could it's like, it was a little bit. But no, it wasn't, it was a lot. It was a lot what she was giving. And so I don't know, I just feel like that even that phrase, just really, you know, stands out to me to about this passage.

Kate Boyd: 37:54

Yeah. And we're coming up the end of 13. When he's saying be awake, be aware, Be alert. And she seems to be the only one here who really is, you know. Okay, moving on to good old Judas betraying Jesus. What stands out to you about his meeting with the chief priests, if anything, because it's only a couple of verses.

Brianna Wilkerson: 38:21

It's just interesting. Obviously, other things may have happened between the story in that, but it's just interesting that it's right after, at least in Scripture right after that story. So you know what Bailey was talking about that comparison, like, what led him to do it right after that? Was he like, Man, this guy's fool? I don't know. He was thinking, you know, obviously, in different scriptures, it talks about how you know, you know, saying enter him or whatever. But I just think it's curious. I've just again, question of like, why after this, like, are you because you got to do this before you knew the child looking for him?

Kate Boyd: 38:56

And I guess what's interesting, and maybe I'm mixing up my Gospel accounts, but like, wasn't Judas the treasurer? Like, wasn't he in charge of the money? And so, you know, it says that there were those who upset were upset about the expensive appointment, and like, how the money could have been given to the poor, back in the anointing story that we just read. So in my head, Judas is part of that conversation. You know, like, I'm the money guy. Why didn't they give the money to me? And now we see him going and getting money. And maybe maybe that's not to be read into that because his, his name's not there. But it is interesting, you know, to think about if you was and that we go from hearing she's done what she could to Judas going and getting money for the opposite of the thing that she did, you know,

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 39:53

yeah, you know, I have such I think a lot of people get really uncomfortable and I say this, but I have such a soft spot for Judas. Like, I, I get it, it's easy to paint him as like, you know, the worst one who essentially killed Jesus right, like handed Jesus over. But But I keep wondering, did Jesus have this is another? So sorry, a big question here of free will of did Judas have free? Well, you know, did he have free will and God just knew that he would do what what needed to be done? Or did he not have free will, which makes me really uncomfortable? And, and really did? Actually we'll stop there. Let's talk about that.

Kate Boyd: 40:52

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that goes back to some of the earlier questions about the elect. And what that means, like I sort of feel like the freewill elects kind of goes together. And I mean, I think if any of us have free will, and Judas had free will. And I certainly believe in free will. So I would say so. But yeah, I don't know. It's an interesting question. Another thing I think about when I read this, and it hadn't really occurred to me before, is, is that Jesus even trusted him to do this in the sense of, sometimes if confronted with, you know, I know what you're going to do, the person won't do the thing. But in this weird way, Judas was really trusted to follow through it. Like, obviously, Judas is painted as the bad character, he turns him in. But I also have a soft spot. Like, I think he was a human who did human things. And I think it's easy for us to see his example. And think we'll do differently, but I think he was a human doing human things. And it happened to be a really big, important thing that he did. That was also really bad. But it led to something good, you know, and he's not so different in that way, then, the way that I might betray people in my life, not that I, that I try to betray people, but it happens sometimes, you know, and, and that Jesus trusted him to do that and follow through. I mean, it's kind of a big part of the plan, right? Like, it's a big part of the story. And when I think about him and his role, and the disciples and what they know, and how close they are to Jesus, it sort of feels like there's another bit different kind of trust there. It's like giving someone the trust, to hand you over. Because it has to happen is also a weird, trusting act. To me, you know?

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 42:58

Yeah, yeah. And I kind of fall along the same lines, you do have, like, I'm pretty sure Judas had freewill. But then that leads to a whole other line of questions, right of like, so did Judas understand the role he was playing in this larger story, you know, did he grieve what he was going to do? Because I personally, think he did. Like, I think that he knew that he was going to have to do this awful thing, because it was a part of the story. You know, this had to happen. Jesus had to die in order to be resurrected in order for everything to be redeemed. Right? That's what we're taught in, in Scripture. And I don't know, I just think i think that that makes me have that soft spot, that idea of, I'm pretty sure Judas wrestled with what he was going to have to do and knew he had to do it. And I think we see that even in the story, right. He tells himself afterwards, like, I think that I don't know, I think he had a lot of grief. And that makes me

Kate Boyd: 44:27

sad. Yeah. So we move from Judas to the Passover and the institution of the Lord's Supper, and foretelling a Peter's denial. So what are some of the things that jumped out at y'all from this part of chapter 14?

Brianna Wilkerson: 44:49

I mean, what were they thinking? Like? It went from like, Okay, let's do a Passover of a lamb from Exodus, which is, you know, then Jesus come in and say this, this cup is my blood. The spread is my body. Like, what? Like that escalated very quickly, you know, like, we were just doing this have a lamb now it's your body and just like, and then they sing a hymn and then they go about their weights like, you know, just kind of like, did they understand again? Did they understand fully what it meant? Or they're like, hey, Jesus doing another weird thing, let's just go along with the motions. But um, yeah, I just think that I mean, if I was his disciples, I would just be like, it reminds me of the passage in john where he does talk about like, my disciples have to eat, eat my flesh and my blood and some disciples leaf like they're like, this is this is hard, like, this is weird. I know. So I just think like, in this moment, I give so much props to the disciples, because, you know, in a way, Jesus is just going against everything they've ever learned. And this is like the culmination of that saying, like the Passover, like, I am the sacrificial lamb, which he does talk about, you know, throughout Scripture. So I just, I just think that portion again, it just leaves me wondering, like, props to you, disciples, because that's kind of crazy.

Kate Boyd: 46:03

Yeah, it is crazy. And I think Mark would say, I mean, at least we're looking back on what Mark has already sort of shown us about the disciples this whole time, I think it's, I think we can guess that they don't get it. I that they're probably just hoping it makes sense eventually. And even like, if we look forward a little bit later, when they get to get 70, and they can't hang, you know, we see all this, but I think it's taking everything they celebrate, like you were saying, Brian, and he's been doing this the whole time to them. Like this whole time to like all the Son of Man, Son of God, all these things. They're all concepts that are very familiar to the Jewish people, and especially those who are super familiar with their scripture. So like, the whole time he has been reorienting, how they think about these terms and symbols, as he is, you know, just been flowing through his life and working with them. So I don't think that they'd be surprised if they thought he was doing something here. But they certainly didn't seem to get get it get what it was. You know, I think other gospel writers are more gracious to them than mark is. But yeah, it's a valid, it's valid question, because it is a weird thing to say or think about, you know, eating the body and drinking blood. Like that's not that's not normal. Um, anything anything for you, Bailey in this?

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 47:33

I think? I think I agree that it's weird. And that sounds weird. Right. And, and I think, especially because he hasn't died yet. You know, like, I think that had Jesus done this after he was resurrected, it maybe would have made more sense, because you would have the disciples would have already known, okay, he died. He came back, I get the comparison. But the fact that he does it before he has died, I think makes it a little bit more confusing. Like, what are you talking about your body? You are sitting right here. But we're eating something that you say, is your body? Yeah, so i think i think that's interesting. I also think it is, I'm sure it was hard for the disciples, but I love how Jesus is constantly reinterpreting scripture in a new way, right? It's like, all through Isaiah, the Psalms. He's always pulling things out. From the Pinta to, he's always pulling stuff out saying, Hey, this is what you know, that it says, and then kind of shakes it in a new way. And he does that same thing here with the Passover in the Lord's Supper of Hey, this is what you know. And we're going along this path of Yeah, this makes sense. Makes sense. And then all of a sudden beers.

Unknown: 49:03

Yeah,

Kate Boyd: 49:04

he keeps them on their toes, that's for sure. Yeah. And maybe no one more than Peter, because he's like, by the way, Peter, you're gonna do some bad things. You know, right here. I'm curious Vallely. Do you have the same sort of soft spot for Peter as you do Judas or? I mean, I guess I don't know. Maybe because Peter feels a bit to me like an enigma or maybe that's, maybe that's not the word. But I, I find that I feel different things about Peter in different times and circumstances. And yeah, I guess I'm curious if you have the same ambiguity or feeling

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 49:50

interesting. Yeah. I love Peter. I, um, he's another one on my list that I really want to talk. Yeah, I think that he brings a lot of comedy. For me, personally, just like, I mean, my favorite. One of my favorite stories with Peter is after Jesus is resurrected. And they are, you know, the disciples are on the boat, and they see Jesus on the shore. And Peter jumps into the water. And I just imagine that like, the boat probably gets there before he does, you know, like he gets really excited and jumps in, but I'm sure the boat gets there before him. And I imagine like, all the disciples are there talking to Jesus. And then he, you know, Peter comes like running out of the sea. Like, wait, I'm here. And I just love how how passionate he gets and how many mistakes he makes, but he still ends up being the rock on which the church was built.

Kate Boyd: 50:57

Yeah, if there's hope for Peter, there's hope for all of us. Right? Exactly. Yes. Briana, how do you feel about Peter?

Brianna Wilkerson: 51:07

Yeah, I mean, I think we similar to what you guys are saying like, I just think you know, Peter, she's so dedicated to Jesus really does, like love him. But just like any other human, it's like, if someone says to you, like someone that you've given your life to covenant, do it. It's like, you're not going to betray that. You're, you're going to betray me. You're like, No, I am totally with you. I'm totally for you. And then you're scared. Let's Pierce like probably scared later when everyone's like, I'm surely you're with him as a Nana. I wasn't with this guy. And, and then he realizes, I mean, I think Peters response, once he realizes what he's done is like, so like, so genuine. Not just like, Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I betrayed him. Even if he's like, I can't believe I did that even after I said, I wouldn't. And I think a lot of us can see ourselves in Peter, but we know we're like, we're committed to this. We're committed to this. And I just think my heart breaks too for Peter. Because I feel like I'm Peter. I, you know, I just oh my god, I'm never gonna do this, like I'm totally with you. And then later on, like, Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I did that. Like, I can't believe I didn't even realize I was doing that. Did Peter even realize he was doing what Jesus said, you know, when he was happening? So I do think I resonate with Peter. And I think that fact the fact that mark in the gospels could capture Peter in particular, I think they're trying to communicate something to us, right? Like they're trying to say, like, there's hope for you yet, like, Jesus knew what you were going to do. Even if we talked about Judas, he knew what Judas was going to do. Yet he included him in the circle and loved him like no less than any other disciple. He knew what Peter was going to do. And I just think it's a testament to even who Jesus is like, how can we sit there and say, like, Jesus doesn't love you or love us? Because of what we've done when he clearly showed through his disciples that he would and he does, he died for all of them, you know, so? Yeah, yeah. I resonate with Peter lie.

Kate Boyd: 53:03

I think two, there's an interesting sort of literary thing happening here, too. Because we first see a meal with people and the anointing. And then we see Judas agreeing to betray Jesus, essentially. And then Jesus has a meal with the disciples, and Peter is confronted with the info that he's going to deny slash portray, and, and he's like, No, not me. So like Peter and Judas are confronted with the information thinking that they're going to do different things, but only one of them as aware that they're actually going to betray Jesus and the other ones like no, I'm not, and he does it anyway. Yeah, just sort of interesting to think of it if Mark may have even intended to contrast them and their eventual responses.

Unknown: 53:57

This way.

Kate Boyd: 53:59

Okay, I get so many. I don't know why is it that so cheerfully. Jesus goes to pray and he gets arrested. Anything interesting hear about the prayer or keeping away like or falling asleep, which again, I think it's interesting off of the hills of a sermon about staying awake, as you know, the main application point. And right here at the moment, he needs them. They can't do that. So yeah, yeah. What do you guys see in getsemani?

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 54:34

Um, you know, I have always really liked this scene and guess 70 I don't know if it's like the dark or the quiet. But I've really, I've always really loved this story. Especially because Yeah, it does. He Jesus just told them stay awake, keep watch. And I'm sure during that sermon, they were like, yeah, yeah, we're, we're here with you, we are going to do exactly what you're saying. And they kind of missed the point, you know, and I think it's so relatable because there are so many times that all here, you know, I'll read something in the Bible, or I'll, I'll hear something that God is trying to communicate to me. And I'm like, Yes, I'm here with you. I got it. And then two days later, I it completely, you know, like, I don't remember it until I'm back, like looking at my journal or looking at notes or something. And I, I love that. This is included, that we are so relatable to these disciples, who I think we often think are these super important spiritual people, which they are, but they are also people, right? They're also human. And I kind of find some solace, maybe in knowing that we're all just doing the best we can. And it's never good enough. You know, it's never what the fullness of what God asks us to do. And that's kind of the point because we don't have that yet.

Unknown: 56:26

Yeah.

Brianna Wilkerson: 56:27

Yeah. I mean, I think I agree. Just, it's, I think it happens often where, you know, we're told even as young as a parent, now, I tell them, I think my daughter's only one, she doesn't understand half the things I say, but I, you know, even you know, you someone tells you to do something you're like, for sure, for sure. And you just don't realize that when the opportunity comes up to apply what they just said to do, like, you just it doesn't even equate and so sometimes I'm like, do we just have to mess up the first time? And then the second time we got it? And so I kind of see that? Well, they messed up three times. So maybe not. Maybe it takes us takes us a little bit. But yeah, I mean, I think I sympathize with them. I think they were they probably were just tired. It was the middle of the night. And they probably did not connect and say like, this is what Jesus is talking about. Right here too. And but I also just think about Jesus, like, what was he feeling? What was he going through? Literally, his soul, his soul was overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death? Like he probably felt like he could die just then and and was he anticipating the fact that on the cross that a lot of people would say that in that moment, he felt the weight of sit in the world, and he was really separated from the Father, like, was he anticipating that and, like, I just can't even imagine what he's feeling in that moment, knowing as God what he was about to like, physically, emotionally and spiritually, physically, both through. And yet in that moment, he's just like, please just pray with me to his closest friends, because three is his companions. And yet they couldn't and so did he feel very alone? Like, did he feel like what's the point? And yet he gets up from this moment, he's like, not my will, but yours be done. He's like, Alright, it's time about to be handed over. Let's go do this. And because he was fully man, he could have just been in that moment, like, I'm not gonna go through with this. But he wrestled with God wrestled with himself, and still chose to do it. Like, I just, I can't even imagine I've never gone through something like that. And I probably will never will in that extent. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 58:25

I think it's interesting. You bring up that? Yeah, these aren't just people who followed him. These are people who shared his life with him, his friends who shared some homes with him to sleep in, in the dirt walking around and and people who he trusted to go out and heal people and talk to people about the kingdom of God coming, you know, his big message. And yeah, so it it is something like it's a really hard moment that like, I can't imagine what it feels like to be processing all of that in the moment and to like, be dealing with him. Or even to like, sit in this and to go through his life with them so that he's ready for all of this when it does happen. I mean, anyway, it's a lot. And yeah, do you just shows up and he's got a crowd? I mean, I guess I never realized it was like a big crowd. priests and scribes. Yeah, but he's also got more so it's very much like a mob sort of thing happening. Which is something we have talked about on a couple of episodes so far about this like mob mentality and the fickleness of crowds in Mark specifically, and that the drop of the hat Judas apparently has a crowd from all sorts of groups. So yeah, he pulled that together really quick. So betrayal, man a kiss, huh? That's an interesting way to do it.

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 59:57

I know I think about that. All the time I also have Well, first of all, I, um, it's funny that you bring up that mob scene, because every time I read this, I think of that scene in, in the beauty and the beast when they're like going after the beast, and they're like knocking down the door. For some reason. That's what comes up to me every time and I'm sure it was not that dramatic. But yeah, I just think of that, that idea of like, all of these people coming Yeah, with weapons, you know, so passionate about, you know, Jesus has got to go. And then Judas shows up, not with a sword to say, hey, the one I stab, you know, the one I stabbed in the back the one I slap? The, the one I

Unknown: 1:00:56

know. And

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 1:00:59

I think, for me, that brings up more of those, like, soft feelings for Judas of, you know, was that Judas his choice of like? How he was going to betray him? You know, did God say? Did he know that he was gonna have to betray him? And did he choose? You know, even though I am going to betray this friend, this teacher, Son of God, I'm going to do it with affection. You know, like, even though the whole point of the kiss was to turn Jesus over. But did Judas somehow find a little bit of solace in the last thing he did was kiss him.

Kate Boyd: 1:01:56

It sort of reminds me of that friend thing too, like it was a kiss, like a kiss is an intimate and greeting. And the fact that he walks up to him and greets him and kisses him, in his act of friendship is the act of betrayal, like even among these close other friends. I mean, psychologically, that is fascinating to me, like what is going through his brain? Yeah, so much to think about, and Judas. And so as we continue on, we've got the ear cut off, which Jesus is not a fan of. And everyone runs away. So like, first they're sleeping, and then they desert him. At this moment. There's just there's just a lot going on. And of course, for comedic effect, a streaker. Which is weird. But there are actually a lot of theories about who this person is. I asked on Twitter. Yeah, I wish that I could find it quickly on there. But I remember asking, and some people think it's Mark himself, because apparently he likes to insert himself into the story. Um, I feel like someone said that it might have been Paul. But that feels weird to me. I mean, a lot of people have a lot of different ideas about who this is. So if you need to entertain yourself, ask on Twitter, people will have lots of theories or just Google it. I'm sure there's some good, interesting things. I mean, I don't think we'll know for sure, but it just seems like such a weird thing to put in the story. Yeah, I think it's like, go ahead. No, no, I

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 1:03:34

was just going to agree that it's such a weird, tiny little, what is it? two verses of just like, and then there was a naked guy, right in the middle of this huge, dramatic, you know, heartbreaking story. Yeah.

Brianna Wilkerson: 1:03:50

I think Yeah, some people say, I mean, it's mark, because it's almost like he's inserting himself in. I mean, he's not beating himself up in any way. He's just like, I was naked and I ran away. It's almost like he is like admitting that he to flood. But he just fled in a way that was weird. But yeah, so I think that's why well, that's what I've heard too, is just like, oh, okay, marks just like making let us know that. Like he's not just writing a story about all the disciples who fled but he was for sure. There he stood by Jesus like he fled to, but the way he talks about it, it's just like, wow, like, you're really making a point to say like, You're no better I guess, you know, if that is true, if that if it was my own?

Kate Boyd: 1:04:28

Well, I think to, to your point, it shows that like, everyone was leaving Jesus, like everyone close to him was handing them over or falling asleep, or running away or cutting off an air like all of them were leaping, deserted him by Jesus, you know, and even the people following and secret like are out to the ones that we don't know their names. They're like peace, leaving it. And if I think about it from a literary perspective, like I As the skies naked, and there's a lot being revealed or about to be revealed, like we're seeing the disciples and Judas in the fullness of, for lack of a better word competence around him, right, you know, and we're starting to see the motives of the council as we go into the trial. So like, I think it's an interesting, albeit very unusual way to set up that, like, I've been telling you all this stuff, and now we're at the part where it's gonna happen. And now you're about to understand it, you know, thing, and like, why I've been trying to remake all these symbols all the time, like Jesus is sort of like, it's, it's being revealed now. And so maybe it's probably more than Mark intense. But I think it's an interesting detail. Like, why include that this guy ran away and that he's naked? It's such a weird thing, but might be a little device that sets up this like uncovering of the plan, you know? All right, the council and his first trial. We'll start there, and then we'll get into the denial. Brianna, I know, you are wanting to talk about witnesses and their need for that. Like, do you want to talk about that? You want to give us some details there?

Brianna Wilkerson: 1:06:15

Yeah, just I mean, most people probably have read this book, but like, you know, the case for Christ. I love that book, just because it just talks about, like, all the different, you know, proofs of Jesus and stuff, but he just talked about, like, as a lawyer, I think and just the need for like, witnesses witness accounts to line up, but just like, we know, when they brought him forward, like, basically, they're like, there's just a lot of false testimony, because none of these statements agree. And so they actually could not convict Jesus of blasphemy or anything like that. But then, you know, I think up until this point, you know, when people back some who you Who are you, he's just kind of like, given a political answer. And it's just like, Oh, you know, this and this, but he just very blatantly in 62 says, like, I am the Messiah. Kind of admitting that for the first time, I think, because he knew, like, you know, these humans can't necessarily convict me. So it's almost like he himself is saying, like, I am this and I know what I know what's going to happen after I say, I'm the Messiah, you're going to charge me for blasphemy. And then we're running up this show going, you know, which I just think is just so interesting that like, no matter what people could have done, humans couldn't actually convict Jesus. Like he had to be the one that you know, even Judas, like Judas, set them all up. But Jesus was the one to say, like, No, I'm going to step into my full identity, but I know that this is going to make the fulfillment of what needs to come.

Kate Boyd: 1:07:34

Yeah, that's an interesting point. I've never, never really thought about it from that perspective, like that. They couldn't even figure it out. And like, we know that they were gonna figure it out, because they were determined to but um, we're just like, why they have the trial with Rome, because they want this particular outcome. But it was Jesus Himself saying, No, this is it. You know, I'll say what you need me to say because it's true. And I feel like it's interesting to you in light of like, earlier in the book, every time people are like, truly, you're the Son of God, like, or you are Messiah, or whatever. He's like, don't tell anybody that you know this. But now he's the one standing in front of people saying it like, definitively. That's really

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 1:08:19

interesting. I've never thought of it that way. But, um, I, as apparently, and in all of Mark and all of the Gospels really think of Peter again, because at the beginning, he it says, like, he's following at a distance. And he says, He says, If I, you know, and it's like, it's, I just think of Peter like, trailing behind, like, no, I told you, I'm not gonna betray you. Um, but he, he wanted to be close to Jesus, you know, like, it doesn't say anything about where any of the other disciples were. And I think about after seeing Jesus arrested, I think, if I were a disciple, I think I would go home, like, I'd be like, okay, you know, like, something is happening that I don't understand. But Peter is still there. Just following, you know, faithfully behind Jesus. I just think it's a it's a really sweet couple of verses that it keeps adding that Peters there along the way.

Kate Boyd: 1:09:27

Yeah. Which is, I think is interesting. So like, as we move into as denial is that one thing I noticed in there, the distance, it's like, every time he denies, he steps further away from where Jesus is like first, he's in the courtyard, the needs in the forecourt and so he's it. He's sort of like that physical distance that he's been away from Jesus, but it also becomes, like representative of the spiritual and emotional denial of him that distance to so I think that's an interesting thread in this So, how do we, I mean, we all like Peters. So how do we feel about or what do we see in the denial story that stands out to us?

Brianna Wilkerson: 1:10:11

I think it's interesting that at the end, you know, it talks about how, you know, reminding him that Jesus said you just saw me and disowned me is a very powerful word. And when you think of the sound someone you think of like, we were what you were once related to me, I want to love you, but no, you're no longer a part of me. And that's actually what he's doing like and but you know, Mark uses the word deny. And so it denies like, Oh, no, like you just denying the truth. But then at the end, he says disown. And so it's almost like I think Peter didn't really see that he was, well, he blatantly says, I don't know this man. But I don't think he realized by denying him that he was disowning him until like the rooster grows. And he's like, remembers what Jesus said. And he broke down and wept. Like, I didn't realize that I was completely dystonia. Maybe it was just like, I'm just going to keep myself safe by denying it while I'm watching what you're saying, like, well, watching from a distance, and he realizes more and more people recognizing, so I'll just continue to watch from the distance. But then he realized, oh, my goodness, I've actually been disowning him this whole time. So yeah, I didn't know I think that's what I think about, like, just the idea of like, maybe he doesn't fully know the weight of the denial that he's doing. To the end.

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 1:11:23

Yeah, it does seem to happen really subtly, doesn't it? It's just kind of like, Oh, no, that wasn't me. You know, it. It's very, to me comes, comes across very like flippantly. You know, like, he's, it doesn't seem like he's trying to be like, he's not trying to discern anybody, right. He's not trying to sever ties. But it's so, um, it's such a drastic change in such subtle

Unknown: 1:11:57

movements.

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 1:12:01

I don't, I don't know that I really have a lot to say about it. Other than like, that, you know, it's just kind of blows my mind that it happens so subtly, but it's something that is never going to be forgotten, right. until the end of time, although probably after the end of time, too.

Kate Boyd: 1:12:22

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure. I mean, I'm, I'm pretty sure Peter gets asked that a lot. Like, what were you thinking, Man, he just told you, um, you know, and I like I, I love that it includes that he broke down and wept, and that he understood and saw and had this breakdown and remorse about this opportunity. Like, things are starting to click for him, like, now Jesus is going to die. And he thinks that this is the last thing he's ever done for Jesus before Jesus is gone. I would probably break down and cry too. It's a lot in. And I think he feels the weight of that. That's, that's heavy. You know, poor Peter. No. Okay, so that brings us to the end of what we're talking about today. So it's time for us to start talking about army? And are we thoughts based on what we learned today in our discussions? So Bailey, how about you? What's your meat and your wheat?

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 1:13:31

Or my we thought I was or for my knee thought, I'm sorry. Um, I haven't really been thinking about since we talked about it. At the very beginning, you guys kept pointing out of like, doesn't matter. You know, the end times to the electives doesn't matter. And to me, for some reason, it does it hurt, like, I want so badly to know who the elect are. But it also feels to me like I am doing the same thing that was done to me in more conservative circles. These people are in these people are out and you're out. And so I feel myself like being that right of trying to decide who's in and who's out. And so I think what I've learned a lot about myself today is stop worrying about the theological issues, right? Stop worrying about predestination and free will and just live as Christ did, right? Because that's the point of all of this is to live as Christ did. And follow those two big commandments love God and love others. And I was also thinking of a quote by Sara Bessie that I know I'm gonna get wrong. But she basically says that theology is living out what we believe. And I think for me, that helps a lot of I don't need to live in this theological space of what's right, what's wrong, who's in who's out. All I need to do is live out what I believe about God, about Jesus about the world, the church. And that is really comforting. For me. I feel like I had a lightbulb moment this morning. Oh, good.

Kate Boyd: 1:15:33

Is that similar to your we thought? Or is there something else that you would want to know? Um, no,

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 1:15:42

I think that that is probably probably the we thought for the most part as well as

Unknown: 1:15:51

the church as a whole. Okay, the American

Bailey Welch-Pomerantz: 1:15:56

church as a whole really likes to do the same thing focus on what's right, what's wrong. And and I wonder how different our communities with luck? how different the western American church would look, if we just focused on? We're gonna do what Jesus said. And that's it. Yeah. Brianna, how about you?

Brianna Wilkerson: 1:16:19

I think when I studied this with a group people, um, a few weeks ago, I think this statement of she did what she could just really sit out with me. And I think that is still my thing, where, you know, I'm in a different season of life, like, I'm a new mom. And just with that, I just feel like in many ways, I have not been able to, like, pursue Jesus the way I used to. And the way I feel like maybe you know, your normal should. And so I feel like he's just constantly coming back to me, like, what can you do? Like, what can you do? What can you do? I just want to know, you did what you could. And I think that's into being intentional, that that's still me being intentional, like, Oh, you know, like, my daughter didn't sleep, so I'm not gonna have quiet time. No, it's like, okay, where can you fit it in, and just so, but it's gonna look different than what you may be used to. But that's okay. And so I think that is just what Jesus kept coming back to me, because I think I've disqualified myself from even a lot of like, getting really raw here. But like, really ministry things, because I'm like, I'm like, do I even know how to say the Bible anymore? Like, this is these little things. And so I just think, in every season, not even when I feel like I'm like spirit all, you know, spiritually connected, I just want to remember that, like, what can I do and just be faithful to that. But then I think the weird thing is, I just keep chapter 14 just keeps, like, resonating with me, just Jesus, in his most desperate time, is still like, lovingly, like telling us, this is what's going to happen, you're going to deny me but like, basically, I'm still going to the cross for you. Like, I still love you. And so I think our I think when we do need to listen to what Jesus is saying, and not just like, oh, he's gonna love me no matter what. But also know that even when you're trying your absolute best, as I believe most of the disciples were, you're gonna fail. But know that his grace is so like sufficient for you. It's the hardest thing for us, I think us to recognize because we do do that like binary thing with black or white. But Jesus does love for us, it's like, right in the middle. Like, even when you're doing things amazing, even when you're not doing things amazing, like, I still love for you and love you the same. So I think he listened to his words, try out your best to follow them, but also know that you're gonna mess up. And that's okay.

Kate Boyd: 1:18:23

Yeah, that's good. For me, sort of what some of you were saying that, that sort of keep awake phrase keeps hitting around my head, like, keep doing what you can and stay aware. I mean, there's a lot we don't know. And we can still do things that we know to do. And that's been an important thing. And I know that I often get caught up in this, like thought that if I haven't figured it all out yet, I can't move forward. But sometimes you don't have the clarity to move, like very far until you've moved. And so I think it's about doing what you can and being aware of, so you can know what the next right thing is, like, each step of the way. So like keeping in step. And I think for my we I just keep coming back to this idea that his closest friends and the tightness of the community around Jesus and how that was developed, and every day in in the ministry and in the way that they like a developer's house, and they went with them to a garden to pray and they came back together and they went to the wilderness. And so my weed that I guess is community like is this need of that even when Jesus went to be by himself, he came back to his people, even though they weren't doing what he asked them to. He came back to them and he spent time with them. You know, teaching them and he didn't just write them off and move on whenever they got it wrong, like he stayed in the week. And I think that's really important for me because I tend to isolate. Even though I believe in community so strongly, it's easy for me to isolate if people aren't doing what I think they should, or if I'm not doing what I think I should be doing. Um, but I think it's important to remember that they are with him, and in his life and their whole messy selves. And like, you know, this is the kind of community that like, gave money and supported and you know, that they cared for each other. And they supported each other in lots of different ways that I'm, what we're here that's like, part of what it is to be here and what we're supposed to be awake and do. It's part of the stuff that we do know. So I'm keeping that with me as my we thought. Thank you guys for joining me today. I really enjoyed this and, and that we ended up with a lot of questions. We didn't solve them. Sorry, everyone, but hopefully, maybe it'll help prompt them, you know, that's for other people, or maybe just the acceptance of not having to note all right now, you know. Thanks so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed our discussion, I'd love if you would rate and review on your favorite podcast player. This helps more people find the show and learn with us, then definitely come on over to social media and let's talk about it. You can find me on Instagram at Kate Boyd co and on Twitter at V Kate Boyd. And don't forget to check the show notes to find and follow today's contributors as well. Thank you so much for joining us and I will see you next time.