Episode 3: An Interview With My Ex-Wife (Pt 1)

In my first podcast interview I jump in at the deep end for a frank conversation with my ex-wife Siobhan about our marriage break-up and the challenging aftermath. Relationship break-ups can often be times of enormous stress and conflict, and ours was no different. We talk honestly about the impacts and fallout of this difficult time, and how it affected our mental health. Pt. 2 will be out next week. 

Transcript

spk_0:   0:09
Intro: Let's explore the value of being vulnerable. They're the kinds of challenges that people have to deal with all the time. Let's get comfortable with being uncomfortable. What are the big challenges that you've had to face before? I wanna open up a conversation around mental health.   So hello and welcome to this week's episode of The Suicidal Man Podcast. My name is Kerry Lawless on this is my new podcast, where I'm trying to look at issues that affect our mental health in a way that's honest and open and, yeah, I mean, hopefully helpful to people who are listening out there. And thanks for joining me. This is a very special episode because it's my first interview. I said in episode 1 that I was going to be trying to interview people regularly on the show. So yeah, this is the first one. I actually recorded it a few months ago. I recorded it before there was any Corona virus lockdown. Before our lives changed dramatically, as they have now. And actually I recorded it before I even recorded Episode one. So it was actually the first thing that I recorded for the whole suicidal man project and, yeah, I mean, talk about going in at the deep end. It's an interview with my ex wife and very early on, when I had the idea for the project, I knew that I wanted to interview her. I knew that I wanted us to have a conversation about our well, I suppose, really focusing on the break up of our marriage and the aftermath. I chose that because it's a topic that's very relevant to mental health. I think it's the kind of thing that can cause huge stress for people, it can cause huge conflict and I thought that it might be worth us talking about it on here. So yeah, it was my first ever interview.  Siobhan, my ex wife was very brave and I'm really grateful to her for coming in and doing the interview with me. It turned into quite a long conversation, so I don't want to push my luck here with my new listeners to this show, and I've decided to kind of break it up into into two parts. So rather than throw a lengthy interview at you in week three of my show I've decided to split it into two parts. Part one will be this week and part two will be out next week. So without further ado, let's just jump straight into it. We cover a lot of ground and I hope it's interesting. I hope you see the value in it by the time it's all said and done and, yeah, enjoy.        So what can I tell you about this woman? This woman has been part of my life for over 20 years. She has been probably one of my greatest teachers, both indirectly and directly whether she wanted to be or not. She has been someone who I have both loved and also at times hated and sometimes both at the same time. Um, she has infuriated me. She has challenged me. She has wrecked my head. She has also been an inspiration in many regards. So we've had a complex relationship over the years. I should say also that she is the mother of my two children. I was delighted to be at her wedding last year. Last summer she got married to a fantastic guy who I'm very fond of also. So I would like to introduce you to Siobhan Larkin, my ex wife.

spk_1:   4:18
Hi, Kerry. Who would have thought we'd have been here like this? 

spk_0:   4:24
Yeah, so look, thanks for coming in. Thanks for agreeing to do this. We're probably both going out on a bit of a limb here. It's a bit of an experiment. So thanks for coming. Thanks for agreeing to do this. How are you feeling?

spk_1:   4:41
I'm feeling good. Yeah, Slightly nervous and yet it's all so perfect. I had no hesitation in saying yes when you asked me so, yeah, I'm glad to be here.

spk_0:   4:57
Okay. Great. I I mean, I suppose in my introduction there, when I'm saying that there were times that you wrecked my head and there were times I hated you I also meant to say that I'm sure it was the same for you. I'm sure you had similar feelings towards me at times, you know?

spk_1:   5:13
Oh, yeah, Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think any of us are under any illusions about it. 

spk_0:   5:19
I know, and we will get into that later. So yeah, I suppose just to explain why we're doing this crazy interview and where the idea came from. Look, you know, marriage breakup, separation, and not just marriage. You know, any kind of relationship break up can be hugely challenging for people. It's a very emotive time. It's a time where there's massive conflict or there can be massive conflict. Not always. And it can, you know, I know that in terms of research that's been done around suicide and suicide attempts that one of the big factors, particularly for men committing suicide, is after a relationship ends. That could be, you know, due to conflict with with the ex partner, it could be around financial issues. It could be around issues with the children. It could be a combination of all those issues. So, you know, it's a hugely challenging time for people and, obviously, it's challenging for women too. I'm not saying it's only men that find it difficult. So I just thought it would be interesting to kind of have that conversation. And, you know, when we split up the first few years were pretty rough. They were. And I thought it might be worth..... Obviously we're not in that space now and we're both happy to be here having this conversation. But, you know, I thought it might be interesting for both of us to kind of think back to that time about what it was like, how it affected us. What helped us to get through it? And that it might be of value maybe sharing some of that with people who are listening given that it is something that does have a massive impact on people. And just to name it, it's also been shown that it's a time of high risk, particularly for women. After relationships end there could be violence. A lot of violence can be inflicted on women. And women, you know are often.....I don't know if often is the right word. I don't know the exact statistics, but I know that in terms of murders and serious violence against women it is often in the break up or following the break up of a relationship. So, you know, just to name that. It is a highly emotive time and a challenging time and we've bean through that and it was a very challenging for both of us. So that's why I thought it might be interesting to have this conversation, and it might be interesting for people to listen to.

spk_1:   8:12
Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it should be. I think it is a time that causes a lot of stress. I think it brings out in both parties the worst and, hopefully, the best of each person. It's a time of potential huge growth. It's a time of emotional and mental stress. Probably financial in a lot of situations as well. And it's an everyday occurrence. So I think it could be really interesting and important to talk about it.

spk_0:   8:45
Yeah, Good. I'm glad you're up for it. So I suppose before we roll up our sleeves and get into the tough stuff..... Do you want to just say a little bit about before we broke up? Or how we got together or the marriage and, you know, put a bit of a background on that before the the break up.

spk_1:   9:11
Okay. Okay. Well, well, I mean briefly. What happened was we met through a mutual friend. I was in college. You were unemployed as far as I remember and living in the area and we met through a mutual friend and we actually became good friends very quickly. And we were very were close friends and then suddenly we were engaged and it's literally happened almost overnight like that. And we got married nine months later after getting engaged. Yeah, Yeah. So we kind of went from being best mates to being engaged.

spk_0:   9:55
Yeah, really, we didn't  do dating, that middle piece. 

spk_1:   10:00
No, we seem to have missed that for whatever reason. So we got engaged and then you moved in and then we got married. And then it was two and a half years later or something like that, Sadhbh, our daughter was born in early 98. And then in 2000 we moved to the States and as we were moving I was pregnant with our son Tadhg. He was born and unbeknownst to us, he had very, very severe congenital heart disease which necessitated the guts of two years in hospital and five open heart surgeries and a couple of other ones. Living life on the edge. And then the marriage broke down. Yeah, he was just gone two when the marriage broke down on. Then six weeks later, I moved home to Ireland with the kids and I think six months later you moved home.

spk_0:   11:08
No, it was because I remember it was around Christmas or just before Christmas that you came back. I think maybe the November

spk_1:   11:16
November 28 it was Thanksgiving Day? Yeah. There's some dates I'll never forget.

spk_0:   11:21
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. And then I came back. I was supposed to come back in early April and then, you know, to add insult to injury, my dad died unexpectedly. So I had to kind of scramble around and finalise things over there and come back a little bit earlier than planned. So yeah, it was full on. And I suppose even listening to you say that......we were nearly seven years married,

spk_1:   11:50
We were just over seven years married.

spk_0:   11:52
Yeah, Yeah. And, you know, I mean, we had a lot to deal with in the marriage. I suppose we moved broadly, set up a life in a beautiful part of the world, Santa Fe, New Mexico. And for me it was probably a place that I've felt more at home than I ever felt anywhere else. Yeah, I loved the place, the high desert there. And we were starting to build a life there, and then, obviously, you know, when Tadhg came along and we found out about his heart conditioned....Yeah. I mean, everything just went haywire then. Yeah, it was a challenging few years, you know, in and out of hospital and trying to look after him and trying to look after Sadhbh. And I mean, obviously that put huge pressure on the relationship. And I think, you know, when things had settled down with him after his initial flurry of operations and he was doing all right..... I mean, I suppose, yes, it was me that kind of, you know, made the call. O r just, you know, realised that the marriage wasn't working for me. I I mean, look, I suppose I was about 23 when I decided to jump all in. And you were six and a half or seven years older than me. So you probably had a little more maturity than me. But I think when I look back I think I probably wasn't ready. I think in my twenties I was still very much all over the place and trying to figure out who I was and what I was about. And, yeah, I mean I know even to this day it was definitely the hardest and biggest decision I ever made. And the scariest. That was where I was at and that's what happened. So I remember us having that conversation, and I know it was.....

spk_1:   14:14
You just turned 30. Yes, you're 30 the month before. 

spk_0:   14:20
Yeah, yeah. So maybe it was my first midlife crisis are an early midlife crisis or whatever it was. Yeah, I was just turned 30.

spk_1:   14:33
I mean, if you look at it now, Sadhbh is 22. We met when you were 22. I mean, you can see how somebody of that age is just finding her way. And if she told me she was getting married now, I'd be like, Are you crazy?

spk_0:   14:51
I know!

spk_1:   14:52
Yeah. Yeah, but there you go. I mean, we, you know, I do believe that everything happens for a reason.

spk_0:   15:00
So thanks for giving the background to the marriage there. That's the potted history. Let's take it now to that point where we did split up, you know, we had the conversation. I think if memory serves me you were, you know, maybe a little bit surprised or you weren't expecting it at the time. Because I suppose I'd been struggling with it for a while but because of everything that was going on with Tadhg and just, you know, myself. I I was carrying it inside, I was trying to, you know, ignore it or fight it. I was terrified about making that massive kind of decision and then verbalising it to you and to everybody else. But anyway, you know, in the end, I did. So can you remember what that was like for you at the time? You know, when you heard that, your initial reactions....

spk_1:   16:05
Yeah, I suppose, OK, so you're the one who made the decision. And you're the one who had to have the courage to follow up and act on that decision. So from me, from from my side of it, it was like you were very hot and cold. And, you know, one minute you'd be very loving and wanting the relationship. And then this apparently came out of the blue. And you could argue that definitely we were so depleted emotionally in every way because of dealing with Tadhg's illness and all that. That meant I could have said that listen, now is not the right time to make that decision. But I think we'd had a couple of rows that year where we did have that conversation and now is not the right time to talk about our relationship. We have just about enough energy to keep ourselves going in and out of the hospital never mind dealing with our relationship. So that night, while at one level it came as a surprise at another level, it was like, OK, that's it. Yeah, you're right. It is done. I remember possibly in a dramatic fact fashion taking off the wedding ring. I don't know if you remember this. I threw it in the fire and I said, You're right, it's over. And you said, 'Whoa, that's a bit dramatic. There's no need for that. Like throw the ring and the fire.'

spk_0:   17:34
Probably not the right thing to say under the circumstances!

spk_1:   17:37
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I was just so clear. No, this is a symbol. It is over. And there is no coming back from this. And I was saying this moreto myself than to you. And then there was the grappling with what's the circumstances of our lives like. Tadhg, while he was well at that time was going to need more surgery. You were going to move out. You were moving out that night. How are we going to do this financially? We can barely afford one household. What happens of I go home? You're like, I'll come home and visit you every month. And so just all it was all a little bit nutty, you know? And that maybe lasted an hour, two hours. And then you packed. I think you had your bag already packed and you left and.....I don't have I ever told you this? We had this gorgeous balcony at the back, and it was overlooking the mountains. It was dark, but I went out onto the balcony and I remember looking up into the sky and I saw a falling star. And it was the first falling star I'd ever seen. And I just had this thought. Okay, this is gonna be really hard, but this is actually going to turn out to be one of the best days of your life. This is the first day off the rest of your life. Now that was like a fleeting thought, it was as fleeting as the falling star. It didn't cure the emotional pain and turmoil that was going to be there. But that was my memory of that night,

spk_0:   19:24
No, You never told me that before.

spk_1:   19:26
Yeah, Yeah.

spk_0:   19:30
Okay. And then so, you know, I suppose the next part was about a month later that you left and came back to Ireland, about six weeks later. Yeah, you came back to Ireland. I had to hang on for another couple of months to, you know, take care of some business over there and we had some debts that needed sorting out. And I had to put the house, you know, that we were renting and, you know, sort out the furniture and all that stuff. And yeah, then I came back, and I suppose, just to throw into the mix, my dad had just died. That was totally unexpected. So I came back. I suppose I was in heap when I came back, you know, and you've been back in Ireland for a few months with the kids which I know was tough for you because you were suddenly doing the single mom thing. And yes, so what happened next? I mean, I suppose that's where things got pretty tough.

spk_1:   20:35
Yeah, well, what happened was when you came home there was the funeral, your Dad's funeral. And there were all these mixed emotions, because, I mean, obviously, I was at your father's funeral. I always got on really well with your mom and your sister, so that didn't change. Your mother and my mother were at the airport to meet me when I came home with the kids, you know, So your mother was always great. So actually, Tadhg was in hospital when your father died. So Tadhg was in hospital, I was minding him and hospital, and your father died. Then you came home. It was just all very intense. Then we were at the funeral together, and I was there as the mother of your children. But people would come up and say, 'Oh, why did you two break up? You're so good together. You were obviously meant to be.' All these kind of people who don't want the love storey to end, you know? So you're dealing with this. I can't remember if I was still living in my mother's back bedroom with all of my belongings in two cardboard boxes. Or maybe I was living in the apartment. I can't even remember

spk_0:   21:49
You were in the apartment downstairs in Rockfield.....

spk_1:   21:52
Yeah, yeah, but before that, you know, before you came home, it was in January. I'll never forget it. I got a really strong sense...... because even though we weren't together anymore it doesn't mean that the connection disappears overnight just because the relationship is over. I just got a really strong sense that you were struggling with your mental health. I had this fear that you're going to do something or try something. It may have been unfounded, but that was my sense. And I knew that if anything was going to keep you around, it would be the kids. So I remember calling you nearly every other day for a period of a week or two weeks and having the kids talk to you. Because I I wanted to keep you connected to something. So I don't know if you remember that, do you?

spk_0:   22:47
Well, I mean, I remember those few months after you came back to Ireland, it was without a doubt one of the darkest, toughest periods of my life. Yeah, And I suppose my whole world had come crashing down around me. You know, we had gone to the States and we'd gone to the States kind of full of hope and optimism and, you know, three years later......Yeah, the marriage had ended. We were broke. We'd just spent the best part of two years in hospital with Tadhg. And I just felt like I'd had the shit kicked out of me by the universe. You know, I thought, I suppose in my twenties, I had a certain kind of spiritual belief. I suppose it was maybe a bit New-Agey or whatever it was. It wasn't a religious faith, but it was a faith in the universe or a belief in 'if you follow your heart and if you do the right thing then the universe will look after you'. And you know, here I was aged thirty and a half and everything had just gone to shit. So yeah, I was in a very dark place and I was absolutely overwhelmed and I was scared about the future. And I definitely had some very dark thoughts at that time. I remember it vividly. That January, February, March I was trying to take care of work stuff and money stuff and the house. But I was struggling to get it..... You know, there was days I couldn't get out of bed. There was days I definitely had suicidal thoughts. I just thought 'You know what? This is a mess and Siobhan's back in Ireland with the kids and maybe, you know, with me out of the way, she can just get on with things. And she can start afresh and maybe meet somebody new. And yeah, I mean, absolutely those thoughts were there. It was a horrible time. But, I mean, like you said, it was, you know, I missed the kids and I wanted to see them, and I wanted to be their Dad whatever it took. I didn't know if I had what it took to be their Dad, but I didn't want to give up on that responsibility at that time. And it is probably what kept me going. So anyway, I'm back in Ireland now and I suppose you and and I have to figure out a lot of stuff. I mean, you know, we both came back with next to nothing. We'd sold our apartment while we were in the States. So you were renting and I moved back home with my Mum. And I didn't know what I was going to do work wise or for money and, yeah, I think that's when it really kind of hit both of us. How when you split up there's so many things you have to think of and try and figure out, whether it's arrangements about the kids and the practical financial stuff. But at the same time, there's all the emotion going on. Okay, so I've just come back from the States. We haven't really seen each other for four months. That was pretty full on. That's when things started to get real for both of us because we were living separately. We had two young kids, two and five, and it was time to kind of figure out what the hell we're going to do next. And so, you know, emotionally let's say, what was going on for you at that time? What was that like for you now that I'm back in the same city as you?

spk_1:   26:46
Um, right, Probably when you came back you were coming back to your father's funeral. So it wasn't too different for me before. Not that immediate kind of moment where we went through the process of the funeral and I didn't.....I mean, I knew we were separated at that stage. But I was the same way at the funeral than I would have been if we weren't separated, if that makes sense, because I was still close with your family. But in relation to just everyday life, I was numb. I was numb after I came home and any time I tried to think about the enormity of the situation, it was like.... I couldn't let myself think about, because I think it might have taken me out. You know, I was living in my parents back bedroom with all of my belongings. The kid's clothes and my clothes was all I had in two carbon boxes at the end of the bed, sleeping in a double bed with two kids. It was brutal because both of them wanted.... let's say, for example, this just a simple example. It was like they both wanted me in the middle because they both wanted to cuddle. But I couldn't  leave Tadhg on the edge because he was too small, he might fall out of the bed. You know, that kind of thing. It was just torture. It was really hard. Um, and then you came home and I probably..... I think I asked you to mind the kids a lot. And so obviously it was all, from my perspective, it was all very calm on the surface. But I'm sure there was a lot of passive aggressive behaviour because ultimately I was incensed and furious that you would have the nerve to leave me. And of course I couldn't name it in that way. The anger spilled out in passive aggressive ways. Like I'd be late or I'd demand that you come over now and mind the kids. Or if the kids were having a row I'd ring you and go, 'I can't do this anymore'. I can't even remember anymore what I did. So I went, I vacillated between being normal and being completely overwhelmed. I remember driving out of the driveway in my mother's car one day and the kids were in the back seats crying. I remember thinking, Oh my God, if I could just have a mini nervous breakdown where I could go to St Pat's for two weeks and have an emotional holiday where I don't have to think about anything. I don't have to mind anybody. That would be great. I felt like I was hanging by a sliver of a thread to my sanity, and I remember thinking, The one thing that I know for sure is I won't end up in the gutter because I have good friends and I have a good family. Because I don't know if I can keep myself out of the gutter. I remember that was the

spk_0:   29:57
When you say 'the gutter' what do you mean? 

spk_1:   29:58
Having the money to, get a house. I couldn't think about going back to work because Tadhg was waiting for more surgery and we didn't know when that was gonna happen. And it was just like I didn't know if I was going to be able to do it. Ah, um, So So that's what it was like for me emotionally. Yeah.

spk_0:   30:20
Yeah. And I mean, I remember that time vividly. I was obviously, I was grieving my Dad's unexpected death. I was grieving having to leave New Mexico, a place I loved. It was hard coming back to Ireland, you know, I wasn't necessarily ready to come back, are wanted to come back. But this is where my kids were, so that's, you know, the only reason I came back. But I didn't know what I was going to do work-wise. I didn't have a penny. I was broke and, yeah, I suppose I was. ....You know, I wanted to be there for the kids and try and support you, but it was....yeah, it was very hard. I knew you were really angry with me. And it did, it did play out in terms of.... you know, you'd be ringing me up saying 'you've got to get over here now, I need to get out. I need to go away for a few days'. And I suppose because I wasn't working at the time I would. And I found that very challenging because I felt powerless. You know, I suppose I wanted to be supportive but I didn't know who I was in the middle of it all or what I needed, you know? And I suppose that was it. I didn't know what I needed. So I was just trying to help with the kids, help you deal with all the practical stuff. I mean, I remember in that first couple of months back I ended up in hospital, I think three times, with panic attacks. I mean, at the time, I thought I was dying or that I was having a heart attack, which I think is how people describe panic attacks. But yeah, I remember. I remember a few times I ended up in the hospital just completely unable to breathe, chest pains, all of that and thinking I was going to die. So obviously that was all the the stress and the anxiety I had going on that I probably didn't even realise was there because I was so numb and and worn out from it also. Yeah, I remember it being really tough and that feeling of just powerlessness because I..... I don't remember saying I wanted to be the best ex husband ever but I remember thinking, you know, I obviously I felt a lot of guilt because I ended the marriage and I knew you were upset and angry about it. So I suppose I was trying to make up for that. And I was trying to make sure you were okay and make sure the kids were okay. But, I mean, I wasn't okay. Yeah, So it was. It was chaotic, really, wasn't it? For both of us, It was just, it was horrible, you know. And I remember at that time..... Yeah, I do remember there was a few times where I was sitting on the edge of the bed crying and thinking......I remember looking at my arms a couple of times and I was thinking, I just want to go into the kitchen and get a knife and maybe just cut myself here. It wasn't that I was going to, you know, kill myself, but definitely the pain...... you know, I'd never really thought about or even heard people talk about self harm before that. I wasn't overly familiar with it as a concept. But I do remember vividly sitting there on the bed thinking 'yeah, I just If I just do that it will take me away from this emotional and psychic pan that I'm feeling right now.'You know, I didn't do it at the time, but yeah, I do remember thinking about...... I remember thinking about maybe it's just easier if I wasn't here. So yeah, it was a really dark, overwhelming time. And obviously for you too. I suppose we handled that in different ways and it played out...... I think my memory is that you were..... you've always been good at expressing your anger. You know, you are and I'm not, You know, that's something I've often struggled with. What I tend to do is kind of bottle it up or try and deal with it internally, which isn't really dealing with it of you bottle it up. But, you know, I was never comfortable or able to really vent or explode or express anger. And in the intervening years I've realised and have worked with people around, you know, there's nothing wrong with anger. Anger's important and it's healthy. It's just how you express it. You know, if you can express it safely, then there's nothing wrong with it. It's necessary to express it. But I didn't know that. So I just thought it was great because I wasn't flying off the handle and screaming and shouting. And you know, I was like 'well she's doing it so I'm not going to do it because then we'd both be doing it'. You know? So I thought I was great and that you were.     but you know I also remember I envied you.

spk_1:   35:36
Really?  I thought you thought I was just a total nutter. Which course made me even more angry. 

spk_0:   35:46
Yeah. I mean, look, some of the things you said and screamed and shouted didn't make a lot of sense and weren't logical. But, I mean, that's the nature of it and it's very hard to respond to that are know what to say. So obviously I tended to just say nothing, which made you even more angry, which made..... So that was a frustrating dynamic. But I do, I remember saying to people in the past that 'God, I wish I was able to do that. It must feel great to just, you know, get on the phone and just scream and shows and be completely unreasonable and irrational.' And, you know, the vitriol, the poisonous stuff......But it's the emotion and yeah, there were times I envied your ability to do that.

spk_1:   36:46
Well, I mean, yeah, it's great to be able to do it and one of the things that I had to recognise was, you know, it's as you say, it's really important to express anger. But how you do that is also critical. So a lot of how I did that and, you know it's still a lesson or a journey that I'm on, and hopefully I'm much further down the road than I was.... What? How long is that now, 20 years ago? More or less, 15 or 16 years that whatever it is, is how damaging it is. Yes, so it put you further into your shell which, of course, made me even more incensed because I I wanted a reaction. I wanted to hurt you back, you know? I mean, that's not a logical thing, but when I look at it, what I wanted was to hurt you back because of the feelings of rejection. I often said to people you can't take your son's illness personally but you can take somebody leaving the relationship personally. That's personal, you know. It's actually not, but that's what it feels like. It feels personal. So, um, I was really, really angry and I had to learn and recognise the damage that that did to anything that we were trying to create together, even if it was only for the kid's sake, how my anger was alienating you. And I have to get responsible for that at some point. Obviously not then, it took maybe two or three years for me to kind of go 'okay, this is just, this is a waste of time, a waste of energy, getting angry all the time'

spk_0:   38:38
Yeah, well, it did. It did take us both a couple of years to get over that. But I don't want to get out of that just yet in this conversation only, and  again, going back to what I said at the start, I think that is the bit that is the most damaging for people. You know, that space for men and women, and it's the time when the most harm can happen. You know whether that's self harm, suicide violence, you know, from one side toward another. You know, it's.....What's that about? It's the.....again.....what was going on for me? I absolutely felt powerless. I did know how to deal with your anger. I didn't know how to fight back or respond. You know? So I suppose my thing was I'd either hang up the phone or I'd walk away, leave the house if that was going on when we were physically present with each other or drive away or whatever it was. Which obviously made it worse. So there was this kind of cycle or sort of dynamic between us for quite a while, you know, maybe the first 6 months or even a year where it was just horrible. Yeah, an unbelievably stressful for me, which obviously it was for you too. But I remember so many times sitting in the car just crying after a phone call or a row and just feeling like helpless. I didn't know what to do or how to break that cycle. I mean, I was angry too. I was angry, I just couldn't express it. You know, I remember, it's funny. I remember watching..... well it's not funny at all but you know that film that's on Netflix 'A Marriage Story'? And there's a scene in that film where.....you're nodding your head..... I don't know if you're thinking of the same scene but there's a scene where the husband just loses it. You know, he just loses it and he screams in his wife's face that, you know if....... what is it he said? ' If I thought the kids were going to be OK, I wish you would die. I wish you would be hit by a truck or get some horrible disease and I just wish you'd be dead and gone.' And I remember having those thoughts. I remember a time thinking, I remember wishing you were dead because that would just make everything OK. There'd be no arguments about kids or...... I mean, it's horrible to say it now. But I suppose if  we're talking from what it was like at that time, you know that thought was there. So I mean I get how when people are in that  space violence can happen and it does happen.

spk_1:   41:49
Absolutely. I I know. There was a very clear moment, it was only a few days after we broke up. We were still in America. There was a very clear moment where if I had been one bit more angry or enraged I would have done harm to you physically. If I thought I was strong. enough. But you don't mean it, I was just so overwhelmed by anger and rejection and your silence and arrogance. And this isn't a place of blame, but it just it drove it up more where I just wanted to hurt you so badly, kill you so that I could be relieved of this emotional pain. I'll never forget it. I threw all your clothes down the steps. I don't know if you remember that.

spk_0:   42:38
I do remember. My memory, I mean, it's a long time we go but I remember the phrase 'if I had a knife in my hand right now'. Ah, yeah, it lodged in my memory because I mean..... I remember the look in your eye and I remember thinking 'Jesus!' Yeah, it was scary.

spk_1:   42:57
Yeah, you know, Yeah, it was that moment in my.....

spk_0:   42:59
We can laugh about it now, and it's all grand, but, you know, at the time yeah, that's the level of hurt and anger and.....

spk_1:   43:10
And fear. And that's why I actually love that movie Marriage Story. It's the first of those movies where I've seen 'Oh, my God, I know those moments from my own life.' They didn't shy away from it, you know? But that aside.....

spk_0:   43:26
This podcast isn't sponsored by Netflix in case people are wondering.....

spk_1:   43:32
I mean, yeah, it's hard to keep the sequence of things. You know, one of the things that, I don't whether you found it a relief, but what helped me process things emotionally, were films and songs and poems. But that's not what this podcast is about. But what was I going to say? It's maybe slightly uncomfortable to speak about this and to own it, but I do think it's also a really important part of processing my own emotions, one's own emotions, and owning all of that so that you can get to the stage where we're at, 16, 17. or whatever years later where we can sit here and have this conversation almost objectively. You know, where we've owned our own impulses enough and our own reactions enough to be able t o go 'God. You know, there is that bit of me that could do that, you know, or could have done that at that time.'

spk_0:   44:38
Yeah I mean, you're right. That's very honest. I mean, that's in all of us if we're triggered enough or if we're pushed enough or scared enough or angry enough and it's to...... I mean, I suppose that's why we're talking about it. It's to recognise that that's there. And I had those moments, you had those moments, we both had those thoughts. Thankfully it didn't happen, but it can do. And I suppose that's why I think it's important to talk about this stuff. It's the power of those emotions when you're in that space of overwhelm anger, fear, and helplessness. Yeah, and like you said, if you could have done something to me, it would have made everything okay, you know, which obviously it wouldn't. But that's, I mean, I suppose that is why people do extreme things

spk_1:   45:41
Totally. And I think it plays out in different ways as well. You know, it may not be as visceral as that, but I would remember we when we were in court around maintenance and sitting with all of the other couples who were there. Sorry, not couples, each party was sitting with their solicitor or their barrister or whoever was with them. I remember overhearing conversations where people were arguing, they were gathering receipts with the price of milk or, you know, just small minuscule things. But they weren't really small things. What they were..... that was the projection of that person's anger and hurt. And it showed up in the world. in these conversations where you're getting so petty with each other. I use that word with compassion because it doesn't feel like you're petty at the time. It feels like you're fighting for what you deserve or you're fighting for something so that you don't actually have to feel the pain and hurt or the grief of the relationship being over.

spk_0:   46:48
Yeah. I mean, yeah,

spk_1:   46:50
We went through that, not in that way, but we went through similar stuff, conversations around money. And, you know, again, I think a lot of those conversations is just that unresolved hurt and grief projected into a circumstantial fact of life, if that makes sense.

spk_0:   47:10
Yeah, totally. It was. I suppose, you know, I would have seen that because you know what we went through, to cut a long story short, probably ultimately led me to training to be a mediator and specialising in work with separating couples, which I did a few years later on. I definitely when I was working with separating couples, I would have seen that a lot. I mean, you know, things that from the outside you kind of go, it's not that important or it's not....why are you making ? Why is the whole agreement hanging on this trivial......? You know, obviously it's not trivial, but, yeah, on something relatively small.. But when I saw that I was able to, and probably because I experienced it from the other side, I recognised that this isn't...... this is nothing to do with, you know, an extra 50 quid a week or or an extra hour with the kids once a month or whatever it might be. This is one person who's still incredibly angry and hurt and scared about the future and scared about.....and this is how they are expressing that. And so sometimes they express it through anger or are getting stuck on something that you kind of wonder 'What? Why is this so important?' Because, logically, it's not important. But it's life and death, yeah, because at an emotional level, it is

spk_1:   48:46
Yeah, totally

spk_0:   48:49
It is life and death when you're in that space

spk_1:   48:50
it's also......

spk_0:   48:51
It feels like life and death. It's not actually life and death

spk_1:   48:53
Oh, no, it feels like it's about winning and losing and, by God, you want to make the other person lose. Like, I have to win so that you lose? That's my way of paying you back for leaving me. That's coming from my perspective as the woman who was left, if you want to put it that way. Um, so I had to remember making a conscious decision. I had to stop describing myself as 'oh, he left'. You know, I just started saying 'our marriage broke down' instead of saying 'he left me' because that was painting me as the victim, you know, and I didn't I don't want to be the victim in any part of my life. But I had to make a conscious choice because, you know, I got a lot of sympathy. Oh, yeah. You know, men are, you know, that whole conversation on bastards.....You're all bastards. Absolutely. Totally. So you know what that paints me, then, is the victim, and I don't want to be the victim. And I don't want to experience myself as the victim and I want to claim my power. But a part of that then was acknowledging all the places where I was making you pay, where I was being a bitch, where I was being angry. I don't know why I'm thinking about this now, but I'll just say it anyway. I think the one thing that kept us speaking to each other was that we both had a commitment to Sadhbh and Tadhg, our children, having as much of an experience of family life as possible instead of our mutual anger where we could have easily gotten stuck and just hate each other for the rest of our lives instead of looking for the best in each other. So I think there's only one Christmas that we didn't spend together as a family. Is that right?

spk_0:   50:40
Yeah, yeah, if that.....

spk_1:   50:44
There was one, do you remember? I went to Athlone and you picked up the kids and we were driving away six o'clock in the morning on Christmas Day.  And I remember thinking that was rough. And then every year I listen to these radio shows coming from and the Children's Court, where they're reporting on the arrangements for children over Christmas. Like now, even still it breaks my heart every year. I'm not saying I particularly enjoyed every Christmas for those first 3 or four years because I was still bitter out. But Sadhbh and Tadhg got to have Christmas with their mommy and daddy, and we did everything the same like we do, the German way or the Czech way. We open our Christmas presents on Christmas Eve. And they did that every single Christmas with their babicka and you and me and the whole family around them or my parents. And we were able to get over ourselves.

spk_0:   51:37
Well, it was, yeah.....

spk_1:   51:39
That's my memory. I don't know what yours is.

spk_0:   51:41
No, I mean we did. And I suppose just in case people are wondering what she's saying about babicka and German and Czech? Yeah, I was born in Czechoslovakia, and Siobhan's mom is German. And so we would have done the additional Christmas thing on Christmas Eve, which both the Czechs and the Germans do. So just to give you a bit of context. And babicka is Czech for 'granny'. Anyway, just on that, yeah, the first few Christmases definitely were really tough. And there were a number of Christmases I didn't want to be anywhere near you and I know you didn't want to be anywhere near me. It was, yeah, it was really tough. But like you say, we managed it most years part from one. So I suppose maybe that's a good place to kind of move the conversation into what helped, you know, in terms of dealing with all this high conflict, emotional, anger, pain stuff that we were both kind of struggling with for the first year or two. Maybe after......... Okay, so I'm gonna leave it at that for today. I mentioned at the start of the episode that I was cutting the interview into two pieces because I don't want to push my luck by putting such a lengthy interview or conversation out on week three of a new podcast project. So I hope that's okay. I hope you found something of use in the episode today. We covered a lot of ground and, yeah, I mean, Siobhan was incredibly open and honest. And I just want to say a massive thanks to her for doing that, for jumping in at the deep end with me. Um, there'll be more next week, so yeah, look after yourselves. In the meantime, if anything that came out today was particularly difficult or challenging, there are a list of supports and organisations that offer mental health support on my website at www.thesuicidalman.ie  Thanks for listening and tune in next week for part two. In the meantime mind yourselves, mind each other, and see you next week.