Episode 4: An Interview With My Ex-Wife (Pt. 2)

Continuing the conversation with my ex-wife about the difficult journey from conflict to co-operation in the years following the breakup of our marriage. This episode focuses on what helped us deal with the anger and stress that we both struggled with and how we found an equilibrium in our new reality as ex-partners and ongoing parents. 

Transcript

spk_0:   0:09
let's explore the value of being vulnerable. Oh, they're the kinds of challenges that people have to move all the time. Let's see you get comfortable with being uncomfortable. What are the big challenges that you've had to face before? I want to open up a conversation around mental health. Hello, and welcome to the suicidal man podcast. My name is Carrie Lawless on DH. Thanks for joining me on my mental health podcast where I'm trying to get comfortable with looking at some of the uncomfortable things that can affect our mental health. So, as promised in the last episodes at this is part two this week of my interview that I did with Shaven Larkin, my ex wife. Yeah, last week we covered a lot of ground. We talked about how we got together, and I mean, really, we spent a lot of the interview talking about And what happened when we split up? Um, we talked about the conflict. We talked about anger and stress on DH, the challenges that really impacted both of us in a big way in the, you know, in the aftermath of our marriage ending and the years that followed, so that was the focus last week, and this week we talk more about, I suppose, what helped get us from that place of conflict into a place where, yeah, where we were ableto sit and do the interview in the first place. So, yeah, let's dive straight back in, would pick it. Or pretty much where we left off last week on DH. Yeah, enjoy. So I suppose maybe that's a good place to kind of move the conversation into who are helped, you know, in terms of dealing with all this high conflict emotional anger, pain stuff that we were both kind of struggling with for for the first year or two. Maybe after we split up, you know what was Ah, what helped you deal with us during that time? What help do what Help keep you going without keep you saying there?

spk_1:   2:25
Well, I mean, the most important thing for me was my friends, my family as well. You know, my family were just they just for this cocoon around me and I could sleep in my mother's house, et cetera. My sisters, my sisters were fantastic. My brother was great, but my my friends put one or two in particular on DH, so I could just talk and talk and talk, which was really, really important. Both let me clarify that. And I think this is critical. They were the kinds of friends who would put it up to me. So I didn't just get away with complaining and moaning and bitching and whining about you all the time on There was a turning point for me and I'll never forget it. I can see where I wass I was in the Westbury Hotel in town as an event that you what wouldn't come to it was an event run by Make a Wish on DH. Tig was there and they were giving a fancy night out to the parents of sick Children on DH. I probably been a bitch to you that week or the weeks before that. Inference to you, Never. You never let me get away with it. In the sense off, you wouldn't go all kind of or it all. All right, now let's go and have dinner together and the Make a Wish Foundation. You said you weren't coming because I had been X y resent or whatever on I got off the phone to you. What? I was furious at you because you wouldn't play the game Furious on I rang this girlfriend, this woman, this soul sister of mine. And I said and he this and he doesn't get it. I can't believe I can't believe he's not coming. And I can't believe he said this and oh, my raging. So she let me have my say for about a minute for two. And then then she said, Can I just stop you there? And I was like, What? I said, Can I be really honest with you right now? I said okay. And then she screamed down the phone of me. Oh, I'm so bored off this. I am bored. This is bullshit. Do you hear yourself? Can you not get Are you not bored with this? Well, I was just literally stopped in my tracks. I could feel my cheeks going red and I suddenly stood outside myself, and I looked at myself. I thought, Oh, my God, Shiven, you're like you're like you're like an East End or his character here. No offence. 20 EastEnders fans out there, but I just got it and it was like okay. You know, it's well, what is that saying? And it's like I was taking the poison, hoping that you would die. My anger on my own willingness to forgive you. And no matter what you did or didn't do or said or didn't say it was wrong, you were You just didn't get it was my was my like phrase.

spk_0:   5:20
Yeah, yeah, I've heard that It Z

spk_1:   5:22
Yeah, I got it. And I thought, Okay, you know, on. So those of those friends are so important because it's not just about giving out about you and expressing your emotions. It's also about challenging each one of us in our own personal responsibility. You know, it was only when I really took responsibility for my own anger and owned that I could have a conversation with you about money that didn't come from blame where you could actually hear me. You know, I never forget the difference before and after. I could start to own my own anger and not blame you for everything, you know. Yeah. I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah, that's one of things that friends talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I mean, what else for me to is I You know, I have Ah, I do have a very strong spirituality on DH. I am absolutely clear that everything happens for a reason. And I'm absolutely clear that, you know, the

spk_0:   6:23
Sorry, I'm laughing because that's that's a phrase I hate. All right? I don't believe it, necessarily at all. So it's it's Ah, it's yeah. No, it is. It's one of those phrases that it's like, Oh, I don't believe that everything happens for a reason. Sometimes shit just happens. But so I'm just unlawful because, you know, we do in some regards how very different belief systems, you know? Yeah. Anyway, sorry very

spk_1:   6:50
well for me. Like, everything happens for a reason. I'm the one that gives it meaning right. So, Esso, I choose as much as I can to give it meaning that even if it's like, even if this is really the worst ever, the pits Horrible. Okay, so what's my learning in this? How am I going to grow and develop through this? Because otherwise, why would you even bloody well bother? You know, You know, I was just sink into a bottle of gin somewhere, you know, And I've done that on occasion as well. But s o for me, like I would have done a lot of different types of workshops. I've worked through song. You're processing my emotions, working through music, working through different poetry, um, art, you know, I've done all of that on DH. Um, there's something there that was also really important. It's just gone out of my head now, and it'll come back to me. Okay? But they're the kinds of things. Yeah,

spk_0:   7:48
yeah. I mean, definitely talking. I mean, I can relate to that. Yeah, I was. I was very lucky. You are fortunate blessed at the time that I had a couple of friends that I could talk with Andi rant on DH. You know, I supposed let my anger gross there because I wasn't able to do it to You are verbally, you know. Um, so, yeah, talking to people definitely helped on their on Dean. You mentioned it earlier. Obviously. The kids, you know, for me, it was just, you know, during the worst times it was I hot to just kind of remind myself carry whatever you're doing here, whatever you're putting up with or whatever you're having to put up with their whatever decisions you're making, you're doing it so that you can have a relationship with the Children on DH. You know, make this as painless for them as possible, you know, are not painless, but that minimise the effect on them, you know, to just on. I mean, I think we both had that. I think I I think more than anything that's probably what and naval lose to kind of get past all that stuff is that ultimately, we had to still figure, you know, I was arrangements. You know, whether it's whatever it wass for looking after the kids and things like Christmases and birthdays not going to still fun.

spk_1:   9:19
I think it's important to say that we always figured that out ourselves, that we never went to court around us.

spk_0:   9:26
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, we did manage to figure me We did, you know, go for a bit of mediation in informal. You know, friends had to sit in a few conversations that we had when, when we were capable of having a conversation, just the two of us on her own. I mean, you remember that? That what that actually helped. And then, you know, we went for some actual mediation, but yeah, I mean, we did manage to figure that stuff, but, I mean, I guess you know why. Unfortunately, sometimes for people that is, you know, necessary on it's also very dangerous and can be destructive because, you know, courts on DH, whatever that process, the impact on the on any Children isn't always factored in, you know, because it's such an adversarial process, you know, it's about It's totally about winning and losing, because it's it's one, you know, legal team versus another. And yeah, I'm glad that we didn't end well doing that push, you know? Yeah. I mean, the focus on how is this impacting the kids? What's this gonna be like for them? I mean, it's it pulled me through those hard times, you know, on DH when I again I know in mediation when I've mediated with couples in this Children and they they are getting caught up in in stuff on DH. Any family mediator will tell you this part of your job is tio almost remind thumb our bring the focus back. Okay, guys, what's what's this? Has this impacts. And your Children? What would they think about what you're discussing here? Or what would they think about the way you're speaking with each other? Yeah. You know, if they were in the room right now and you know, there's some of the kind of questions you'd be asking as a mediator, and, you know, it helps because it helps people step outside of their tunnel vision, you know, anger, hatred that they're feeling for each other right now and remind them. Okay, it's not just about the two of you, you know, and put its difficult. And I know, you know, I suppose I'm very conscious, too, as we're talking that, um, you know, we have obviously managed to work those things out on Bond. You know, I hope we haven't given the impression it's been easy, because obviously it certainly wasn't on. It's not like everything's cool now. Were great. And aren't we great? It's not so you know, I mean, we both had to work really hard on, and not everybody is able to do that. And that's you know, that's unfortunate, and it's it's sad for cause. Well, usually for the kids, because they can get caught up in the middle. And, you know, not everyone has friends that they can talk to. Not everybody has Maybe the kind of support that we had our, you know, the capacity. So another, I suppose another thing I was curious about, wass um you know, we've talked a bit about what helps. Um was there a turning point, I suppose. Well, maybe you've answered that you talked there, but when you're lying, I'm going to guess that it was a murder that, you know, that that was maybe a turning point for you in terms of shifting your approach or your way of tanking or dealing with the and what was going on. You know, Were there any other turning points that you can think of?

spk_1:   12:58
Well, I suppose meeting Mike was not necessarily meeting him. But when I realised that the relationship was important to me, I could see that every time I got angry with you or I was, you know, pistol for with the situation or and I was if I'd go into around with him, I never did a lot because I could see that this OK, if I don't resolve this would carry. This isn't gonna go well with my future relationships with man. You know, eso I could see I could see that. So that was also, um, at a turning point. Now, Dash was washed. I mean, I matched him two years after we broke up, and we didn't really get serious for about another two years, maybe four years after we broke up where I

spk_0:   13:57
and they took in over 10 years. You have my reach.

spk_1:   13:59
I took up

spk_0:   14:00
the way you got there.

spk_1:   14:02
We got there for them. Another thing. And so there was that. That was definitely a catalysing factor in. Nobody wants to do the reader work. I think maybe there are S O do. Dealing with yourself and your negative emotions and having to be bigger than you already know yourself to be is very, very challenging. So, um so yeah, like people like you are shouting at you going? I'm so bored with this bullshit or meeting some B where I realised, OK, I actually make a go with this. So I need to really work my relationship to carry, because it's just gonna have a domino effect onto my relationship with Mike, either he's going to get bored listening to me rant and rave, or I'm going to resolve it for myself with you. So I don't have to be ranting and raving, you know, and what? Another thing. I often look back, and I would describe the 1st 2 years what I was like was a black and white movie with no sound. I felt normal. I felt like I was going through the motions of life in those two years. One thing that I would do, especially before I met Michael, was going over anyone. And you have the kids. I would close the sit room curtains. I would buy a box of baby briquette. I would like to fire. I put the sofa in front of the fire. I'd watch telly. There's no Netflix at that time. I possibly bought one bottle of wine and I had a slice pan on bread and cheese, and I spent the whole weekend on the sofa. Either Sleeping are watching telly, but what I mean, I I didn't know what I was doing at the time. But when I looked back and in France, the phone, the curtains were closed. Never answer the door. It's like Akash going into heart press or a sick animal or a wounded animal, and they just go into the darkness to kind of let themselves Hell. I think I gave myself quite a bit of that kind of cocoon space. Oh,

spk_0:   15:56
what would you call it? Depression or what it wouldn't have. I mean, I suppose some of how you've described that would be the kind of things that somebody who's depressed would do. You know that thing of just pulling the curtains and taking not talking to anyone? Carlin open whether it's in Badger the sofa. I mean,

spk_1:   16:15
yeah, I didn't feel like I was depressed. Um, on DH. I do think there can be value in that cocooned kind of space because it's where it's where healing takes place. You know, I, um yeah, it's where healing takes place on May, and maybe maybe this isn't the time or place to say this, but maybe there's a heat and there is a wisdom in depression on. Maybe maybe it was depressed and but it was healing. I don't didn't I don't I don't think I was depressed. I think I went into a space isis I surrendered to having no energy to just literally not being capable of doing any more than allowing myself that space. You know, maybe

spk_0:   17:14
something of just accepting.

spk_1:   17:15
Yeah.

spk_0:   17:16
Look, I'm I'm wiped. Nothing left to give, and not I'm not able for intern on DH rather than post myself or force me. So I'm just gonna allow myself that time to be in that space. Yeah, Andi, And maybe be in that space and not label it as depression or or whatever just kind of go. This is just all I'm a before. This is what I need right now in the allowing off myself to do that. Yeah, there's, there's there's, ah, you know, comfort as you say, your healing,

spk_1:   17:53
healing, healing on and on. Maybe this is why I've never experienced oppression. I've always felt I've been held by, you know, I don't know what you want to call it. A higher source. The universe, the angels, whatever you want to call it. I've always had a strong Connexion to being held by something bigger than myself. There's very few times where I felt like I was in a black hole, like maybe twice were in that period where I felt I was in a black hole. But I did have the tools to navigate that black hole. As in, you know, I've learned about chanting and meditation, so I would have used those tools in that space. But sometimes, you know

spk_0:   18:36
which. I've also envy ji over the years, you know, because obviously not, obviously, but yeah, I I don't have that particular faith or belief system. And I think, Yeah, I maybe had it for a while, and then I I kind of lost us when I was 30 and really never got it back. You know, those You know that? Yeah. Feeling of being held by the universe or believing in that higher power that starts still an ongoing journey for me. And maybe that's why over the years I have it might hit, hit my share of lows and dark moments, but on it's, you know, it's a topic I would be returning to with actually have a guest lined open a few weeks. That, and we will probably talk about that in a bit more detailed. So, um so yeah, I do remember thinking God, you know, someone's got her workshops and she's got her her faith and she's got all that and yeah, I didn't. So I suppose I had to drag myself along on and threw it and find may be practical things to focus on whether that was just kind of reminded myself. Okay, just your job is to deal with this for the kids and the storey. Keep it simple. You know, whatever you have to put up with, that's what you have to put up with. It's not always going to stay like this. It's not always gonna be like this on, you know, I was asking you there about turning points for me, I think a big turning point, Wass I'm not sure when it happened it was maybe, you know Yeah. Ah, year, too. Into all that stuff on. It was possibly after a particularly loud phone call, and probably I'd just hope, because that was tended to be how? Because I didn't you know, I couldn't say anything when you were ah, angry at me down the phone and anything I said tended to make it worse. So, um, but I remember one time just kind of realising that behind this anger is pain you know, and I kind of realised. And I also remember something you said to me once after we split up was it was the end of your hopes and dreams in the sense off. You know, you always dreamed of getting married. You wanted to get married. You believed it was gonna be for life. And that that was on then when when we broke up, when I, you know, ended the marriage. Ah, all that was shattered. And I remember that Stayed with me. You know, I suppose all like a picture was a little girl who's, you know, heart was broken on DH on that. You know, I suppose remembering that and thinking about it helped me to kind of have developed empathy for you, Even though, you know, I probably still hated you times and it still Yeah, it was still, you know, But that was the beginnings of the turning point for me was I kind of went Hang on. This woman is really hurting on DH. She doesn't mean half the things she says because they're so irrational and illogical. You know, s Oh, this is This is actually this is pain. This's someone's broken heart. And maybe it's that little girl having a tantrum, you know, or that inner child, whatever phrase you want to put on it. But yeah. I mean, for me, that was definite turning point in terms of just being able to kind of see past the behaviour on recognise this, You know, this is not the full picture. Yeah. You know, this is not who Shavon is. This is just how she's behaving. This is how she's expressing herself. Just like my little boy would hang up the phone or walk away because I couldn't handle, you know, Yeah. Aggression are Yeah, angry And, you know, in my face like that. So I you know, either freeze or run again. That's, you know, Yeah. I mean, I suppose we're all little boys and little girls just going around and adult bodies. So that was Ah, yeah. That was a turning point for me. Definitely. Um,

spk_1:   22:52
you know that that's a good reminder. I mean, I got that quite quickly again. Oh, this's actually the shattering of my illusion. I had projected all my hopes on to you. You were my knight in shining armour, you know? So that's never going to go. Well, ultimately

spk_0:   23:11
that's not going to go

spk_1:   23:12
out that you reject. You are my projection of all my hopes and dreams. Every single picture I painted, his little girl was a bride and groom Rice who seriously, like, you know, I have no idea where that came from.

spk_0:   23:27
Strong Spiderman. Yeah. Maybe you have some unresolved stuff there. Maybe need to.

spk_1:   23:33
We should have known about that before we got married. Anyway, every picture I drew, so So it was like when I when I remembered that when when it was over is going Oh, my God, This wasn't even about Carrie. This was a projection of mine on DH. My projection has all my illusions, and my dreams and hopes have just been shattered. So that's what this is about, you know? And because it's always those layered sze understandings of what's going on, it doesn't mean the anger still went on. You know, you could You could argue that, actually, you know, it's a throne. It's a way that I being that I have in the world off a lot of situations if I feel powerless around control. But in that particular, the anger was rooted in that, You know,

spk_0:   24:24
in the in the pain of your projection or your hopes And your imaginary happy ending being

spk_1:   24:31
Yeah, the road being

spk_0:   24:33
pulled from under you?

spk_1:   24:34
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That was a really necessary learning for me, you know? And then And then there was I mean, I remember. And then, knowing that there was always the connexion that you and I had, you know, we had Children together. That was never there is a Connexion that was going to keep us together,

spk_0:   24:52
whether we like it or not. I

spk_1:   24:53
actually liked it enough. But you could argue that that also was just that was a physical manifestation of a Connexion that we had anyway. So remember, you came into the house once. I was still in number 27 A. So it was early on on DH. You came in and you're kind of following me from room to room. And you you want to say something and I was going I'm

spk_0:   25:15
sorry. Is this after we split up or

spk_1:   25:18
you have to be split after

spk_0:   25:19
he came back from the States?

spk_1:   25:20
Yeah, Yeah, on DH. I think a friend of yours had had a baby and the birth was very traumatic or something like that. And you were following me from room to room. And I knew you wanted to say something, but you were taking your time getting there. And then because it was very hard, I I remember this. It was so hard to be nice to each other. Yeah, you know so well, it was very hard for me to say anything nice to you at all, because I wasn't going to give you any acknowledgment at all for anything, because you were just a bad person, you know? Anyway, you're following me from room to room. And eventually you said to me, I just want to thank you for having our babies at home and for the way you gave birth on that. They didn't have to go through whatever this other baby had gone through, you know? I don't know. Do you remember that? No. Okay, so it was like we would have these little motoring. No. No, you don't. You don't have to remember, but it might be important to you, but it was obviously important to me, because I do remember. So we have these little moments off Connexion, like pure Connexion That was just pure. Tow us every maybe four or five years or often enough to keep us on track as well. There were those more. Or there was one Christmas where we sat up all night talking, you know? So those moments where there was a few of them, you know, in LA 30 years, not definitely not the early years. There was one Christmas where I called Claire and asked just asked her to come and collect me at 11 o'clock so I could get out of there after kids from badge. Remember that. But anyway, eh, So they're all those little moments kind of, Hells, the bigger picture together is well, you know, for me.

spk_0:   26:59
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get that because I suppose for me, too. I mean, no matter what, you know, when you've beena couple, you have a shared history for whatever length of time that is on DH. We did not shared history. There's there's happy memories. Hopefully there's and there's and there's important significant moments whether it's the birth of Children are or whatever it might be. And, um, all that stuff can get thrown out the window when there's a difficult break up or a painful break over an angry break up and all that stuff tends to be the first stuff that's thrown out. You know, like that thing of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Yeah, people just forget that stuff. Obviously, we did many times on DH, but, you know, yet there was those moments where you would remember it or just going on a second. Yeah, this, uh, this woman, yeah, did give birth to my Children and did go on an adventure with me to America and whatever that those importance moments are. So yeah, they could be helpful to remember, even though, yeah, it's talked about more. Sure, it isn't because there's just this narrative out there, really, Don't you know when Yeah, you know the X and that's it. Andi. They're just bad now because they did this or they did that are you know, and it's like it's It's simpler, I think, for people to kind of just take that Ah, simplistic approach to ah break up or separation are you know, they're always needs to be. One person's a good guy and one person, the bad guy or a bad woman are a good woman or whatever. You know, it's not, which is, I think, those people a disservice. It's not helpful because I know I mean, obviously over period time, we managed to get to a place where you know we do. I mean, we do enjoy each other's company, and it was at your wedding and, you know, we do Christmas together with your husband's on. It's all you know. It's cool. And I mean, it took a lot of work to get there. I know sometimes people when the if I tell people about that or they hear about it, they go, Oh my God, that's amazing. They're on. They're a bit shocked because they never here of that happening, really, Or it's not talked about his mature. It's always tends to be the shit that gets talked about and the difficult Onda messy breakups. And after months of breakup that gets focused on on. I think that could be really difficult for people because then when people are in it themselves, that's their only frame of reference. Um, and I suppose maybe that's why I wanted to have this conversation is to just talk about the the difficult stuff. Honestly, Yeah, Andi. But also, you know, to kind of go Well, it's Yeah, it could be like that for a while. And it's really traumatic and is really tough. And it can be dangerous on DH Bush, if you know, I mean, nothing stays the same indefinitely, you know? So it does change. I mean, it doesn't change by itself. Either You've got to put the work in and find find something to hold onto or to motivate you. You know, for us it was fighting with two Children on, do you know, one of whom wasn't out of the woods? Yeah, medically. So, you know, we had to figure out a way working together. Um, but it's suppose it's it's kind of for people. Teo, try and find that something.

spk_1:   30:52
You know, Marianne Williamson says one of the things that always talk in my mind that she said was If If you get to middle aged and you haven't done any of your inner work, don't be surprised that you wake up one day depressed, so we have what we have. Now when we do spend Christmas together and Mike is there, And we were at you were at the wedding and your mother was at the wedding, and it was all beautiful. And I think how you and Mike Word that day will be the highlight of the wedding. For a lot of people who were there that took a lot of work. Yeah, it took a lot of work on DH. There is so much stuff out there available to help us do that work, whether it's a professional development or personal development course, or I've done work with voice work and poetry. And you've done coaching and mediation of counselling can only counselling is there to know there is There is so much stuff out there on DH. So it's putting it. You always get out of life what you put in. If you put in the work, you get back the rewards. They may not always look like what you'd like them to look like, But something something shifts, you know?

spk_0:   32:09
Hopefully, hopefully, I mean, you know. Yeah, I'm not I'm not I'm not sure it always works out that way, but yeah, ideally, you know, I mean, I know for me and it's a talk about another episodes is definitely out. First I put in a lot of work and I haven't always gotten the rewards. And that's being a source of my frustration. And some of my darker moments is like, Jesus, what more do I have to do? Our, you know? But anyway, that's another podcasts

spk_1:   32:38
are. But this is something else I want to say that that strikes me, and I don't know if you agree with this or not. It seems to me to be quite particular to man. Is this thing off? I want to do it on my own. Does that resonate with you at all? I want to figure this out myself.

spk_0:   32:57
Well, I mean, you've said it to me over the years. Carry your You know what? You're always trying to do it on your own or but sorry, Yeah,

spk_1:   33:05
yeah, eso eso. It's probably quite a male trait because women do talk and we share, and I think that that is not it's not an unfair generalisation, you know. But I think this thing off needing to do it on your own can make it more difficult. So I just

spk_0:   33:26
wanted to

spk_1:   33:26
say that too, Because I see it. Another male friends of mine as well. It's in tight, You know, there's this thing, but I don't I don't know what it is. I'm not judging it, but it just it can make life more difficult. I think you know, I'm not saying should be chatting to your boyfriends or girlfriends all the time, but it's something that might just make you make that stuck nous a bit more ridges or something like that. You know what you think?

spk_0:   33:56
I think that whether you're male or female getting support, getting help, communicating ah, you know is invaluable, you know? I mean, you know, I suppose you can't communicate unless you're aware that there's something going on. Yeah, you know, So I suppose everything starts with some level of self awareness. Okay, I'm ready hurting here, or I'm really angry or really stuck, or I'm really lost, you know? I mean, you can't talk about it unless you're connected. Are aware of us to begin with. Men do men. I don't know. Look, I am going to try as much as possible to stay away from generalisations in this programme because they I said it in Episode one that I think, you know, men and women were far more in common than separates us on. Do you know this? Ah, you know, there are certainly those beliefs or cliches that there that women are better than talking that talking than men. And, man, you know, I mean, every cliche probably has a certain amount of truth behind us. I know you've said it to me over the years that you know why. Why are you trying to do it all on your own? Or And I wasn't always sure what you meant because I felt like I, you know, talk to friends and got support. Yeah, I also know that maybe maybe my aloneness is that I don't have that kind of spiritually well to draw on. So it has felt like I've had to figure it all out on my own. Okay, Deal with it on my own. Without the backup off, higher power, you know that I'm aware of are tuned into or whatever. So, um, yeah, but yeah, it's interesting. So I suppose. Yeah. I mean, we've talked about a lot there, you know, we've talked about how we got together, talked about how we broke up. We talked about what it was like. And after we broke up on the challenge is what helped us What? The turning points Where on, Obviously here we are having this conversation many years later. And, you know, I suppose I was really conscious and hope that it wasn't about aren't we, Grace? And, you know, all small good boat? Because it's not, you know, talked like you said It took a huge amount of work. You know, we still have our moments where, you know, I know you. You annoy me as anybody in any relationship. Well, but yeah, I mean, we have come a long way, and, you know, it was amazing being at your wedding last year, love, Mike. I think he's an amazing guy and thrilled that he's in our lives as a family, you know, both for the kids and for you and for me. You know, he's a good guy. And, you know, I appreciate that He was okay with us, you know? You know, you asked him and I asked was this okay? And there That's ah, measure of the guy he is that he was happy for us to have this conversation on recorded and put it out publicly. But, you know, just to wrap things up, if there was any, is there anything that else thatyou fe feel that maybe we didn't cover? Or if there was something that you know you'd like people who are listening to take away from the conversation? What would it be?

spk_1:   37:22
Well, I mean, what comes to me immediately is the kids. You know, Simon tyke. Um oh, are you know, they're no matter how good to break up you have it still has impact on the Children, you know, bearing

spk_0:   37:39
in mind. Not everyone who breaks of house Children too. Yeah. I mean, this's

spk_1:   37:45
Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know. I I get that. But that's just what came into my mind straight away was the kids, you know, and on DH, I think I know I haven't been perfect in this, but I think both of us have probably done a reasonably good job of where we haven't bitched too much about each other to the kids.

spk_0:   38:09
No, no. I think we both I think we've managed starts very well,

spk_1:   38:14
managed it fairly well, and then it gets tricky as they get older because tigers 19 and size 22 they ask questions. Why did you break up? You know, So that's That's a tricky one to navigate. But I suppose I just guess moved by the impact off breakup on Children on DH, then how that gets carried forward in their lives. You know, I mean, Oliver, childhood experience get carried forward into our lives where there are parents together or not, but I think that's quite a tricky one. So what I would leave people with who are breaking off who have Children is I would love. People would just reflect on that more on DH. Watch for that more in terms of how they're dealing with the break up on with there ex partner or wife her husband's

spk_0:   39:10
on. What about people who don't have Children again? Are dealing with that difficult?

spk_1:   39:15
Yeah, I think it comes back to what you said. They're on DH while I got for myself in relation to you, you know, is that look, anything, anything that you are saying to each other, it's not personal. I know it feels personal, I know that, but it's not personal. It's each person working out whatever it is that they need to work out and it's getting projected onto each other. It is not personal. And if you can find a way to reach beyond that feeling off experience off, this is personal. I have to hurt them back. You have a way forward. I hope that's not too on concrete. No, no, I mean but that's it's just not personal.

spk_0:   40:04
Yeah, I mean, I totally know what you're saying. I get us. I think I suppose we learned that us on ly the hard way because I can imagine people. Isn't that going? What are you talking about? Like she did this or that he did daughter. He said I was not not personal, but I know what you mean. And yeah, I mean, I get that because, like I said earlier, I think it's he always have to look past the behaviour. You always have to look past what's being said. Tow what's going on behind us? You know, the deeper you know on DH. My belief is that you know any kind of behaviour like dots are talking like that are you know, it's comin from a place of pain and pain, I think is a very often, you know, pain and fear are very closely linked. You no one can lead to the other. And because, you know, break up can, you know, brings up a lot of fear for people. Fear of the future. And you know, if this kid's of course, that's it brings an extra dimension. But even if it's not always about, you know parents. But no, it could be 22 years old and breaking open. You got that fear being alone or fear what people think or fear of off. Will you ever find somebody else again and on From that fear comes hurt and then anger, and it's it's But yeah, I think it's that thing of see past behaviour inside, past, behind behind the behaviour. There's a person is hurt. Really, If I said that's that was a very long winded way of saying, you know,

spk_1:   41:45
the short

spk_0:   41:46
version is behind all that behaviour is somebody whose heart is struggling on. If we can focus on that or Reminder says that it might just help us get that little bit of empathy or a little bit of patience or or a little bit of hope, you know, for figuring out a way forward.

spk_1:   42:01
Yeah, on also that everyone is always doing their best. I mean, they're best may not be good enough, you know, like, you know, in the Times when I was frustrated with you around how you might Adele to one the kids about something or around mourning or something like that, it was just like I just the only time I only started to get peace and be able to not take it personally again was when I got he's actually doing his best here. He's I don't mean that in a derogatory way. It was just you were doing the best that you could do in that time. Whether you're stressed and I don't it doesn't matter what what was in the way of you doing it differently or better. And there's no such thing is better. You were doing the best that you could do at that time on me, ranting and raving and given out was not going to change that. Actually, it was gonna hold everything back, you know, So everybody is doing their best. Yeah. No matter who our stuff seems like toe people around them. Everybody is doing the rest.

spk_0:   43:03
Yeah, well, there you go. There's one belief we do both agree on because I I absolutely believe that in life, you know that everybody is doing their best on. Do you know, of course, you might look at somebody, Dune. You know, behaving, sir. Wing over. That's but in the moment. Yeah. You know, I know you never know what's really going on for someone yet people are doing their best on. It's funny you mention that because I remember a turn another turning point for me in terms of dealing with everything that was going on when things were hard. Andi Guilt, you know, I mean, I carried massive amount of guilt for ending the marriage and for the pain that I was causing, yet obviously for not, you know, for not being there with kids day in, day out, as you would be if you were still a couple on DH trying, Tio, you know, do my best. And it was never good enough. And, you know, that was that was really frustrating thing. I'm a turning point for me was when I went. Carrie, you're doing your best right now. Of course, you'd love to be able to do more on Shivani. I'd love you to be able to do more and the kids and everyone and love you to be able to do more. But actually right now, right in this moment, I am there is noting I have nothing left to give. There's nothing more he can do, you know, um, on that kind of talk, a bit of pressure off, you know, because it was just when I could accept that Look, this is all I've got right now. And in a week's time or a month's time that my change and decades, Then I will doom or give more. Right now, in this moment, I'm doing my best on DH. That's it? Yeah, you know, So that helped me with me and voice. And like, was when I recognise that in you as well, you know? Okay, Savan is actually doing her best right now. Even though it's, you know, whatever she is, this is This is the best she's got right now, you know, on, and that that will probably change. And obviously it did. You know, for both of us, so Yeah, it's a good point. Yeah. You know, everyone is only doing their best. And we don't often view it that way because we tend to get caught open focusing on what people are doing wrong on how they're do have They're not doing what we want them to do or expect them to do. And that's what we focus on. We don't take the minutes to kind of go. Oh, okay. But there's a reason why that there doing that? Yeah. You know, that's all they've got right now.

spk_1:   45:32
Yeah. Yeah. So there's two of the things that come to my one is again. It reminds me of that lawyer in air. The lawyer person in them. Marriage Storey. You know, the way that there is the pool for taking them to court, getting half form or whatever. So there's that that pull or, you know? Yeah, basically taking them to court and getting access. Sir, maybe there are times when it's absolutely necessary. I really get that on. There were times when I wanted to take you to court for different reasons or whatever. Andi, I'm always so grateful for the fact that I had people around me. Who said Do you really want to do that? Do you really want to do that? Actually, if you think through to the ends degree, you already have a good set up right now. What is that about? And what it was about was me getting getting you, like, get not you hurt You whatever. Whatever it wass Um Andi, I had to deal with my ego saying, you know, he does this or he doesn't do that. You just know that he still gets to have his kids. Do you know? Because that was real for me. At different points on, I wanted to make you pay for that. I am my ego. Say no. He gets old good and doesn't Doesn't put in the work or or whatever, you know, Um, So I was just so grateful for the fact that I had people around me who were pulling against the conversation that's out there. Get them, make them pay that kind of way. Yeah, that's one thing. And then the last thing is, somebody said this to me once, and I just think it's brilliant for every situation. You did what you did. You didn't do what you didn't do. If you could have done it, you would've done this. Now forgive yourself. Get a complete and move on.

spk_0:   47:29
Wow. Yeah, Well, I think as a as a ending to a conversation. It's kind of hard to top that one. So maybe on that nose on that lovely, simple put clear knows. Ah, we'll wrap this up, Sean. Thanks a 1,000,000 for common au pair tanks for taking a leap into the unknown with me all those years ago. Just going to say yeah, not for the first time. Exactly. Thanks for being really honest. Um, I hope that this is useful for somebody out there to hear. Thanks for being brave. Thanks for being an amazing mother to our Children. You have great taste in men because, you know, Mike's awesome. He's deadly. And I'm delighted that you guys got married. I was delighted to be their thanks for comin. Thanks for the chat. Thanks for the honesty tanks for doing the work that enabled us to get to this point over a long period of time. But we got here, and I suppose if if nothing else, maybe that's a good takeaway for people is the You know, they say time is a great healer. But you know what? It's not a great heater You need to put the work into at Tyre time by itself is necessarily, you know, But, you know, if if you want things to be different or you want, um, a certain outcome, then you know, if you put the work in, it is possible. Which is not to say it will always happen, but if you don't put the work in, definitely won't happen. Um so lovely having this conversation with you. Really? It's been Really? Yeah. Ah, Powerful. And tanks

spk_1:   49:14
for me too. Glad glad you asked.

spk_0:   49:17
Good. Well, I'm glad you accept us. Okay, So there you have. That was part two of my interview, which have on my ex wife. Ah, nde. You know, I have to say it was a really pleasure doing that interview with her. We both took a big leap into the unknown when we decided to do it. Neither of us had done anything like that before. I wanted to do it because, as Shivan said at the start of the last episode, breakup and marriage, breakups are an everyday occurrence. Whether you have Children or not couples break up on it could be an extremely difficult time. It can bring up all kinds of emotions it can lead to conflicts on. It can have a huge impact on people's mental health. And for that reason, I just wanted us to talk about our experience and to share some of that at not because, you know we did. It's perfectly far from us. This interview was the distilled version of a very long process that took a number of years. Nothing changed overnight. It took us a long time to move from that place where you know, we couldn't stand the sight of each other where we couldn't talk to each other in any kind of constructive way. And ultimately it is about just letting go of those emotions. Those, Simone said, does that poison. You know, the anger, the bitterness, the resentment, those negative toxic emotions that can that can consume you when a relationship ends. You know, I hope it was useful. I hope it was helpful. I hope you get something out of it. If you're going through something like that or if you know someone going through something like that. Maybe, you know, maybe shared around. Thanks for. Listen, I'm gonna wrap it up there again. If you want to support me in what I'm doing here, you can go to my Web site at www. Dr Suicide lemonde dot i e You can donate all financial contributions would be most helpful on DH. Yeah, look after yourselves on stay safe on, look after each other and talk to you next week.