Do we really need Christian Music? With Conner and the Bible Outlaw

Time for a chat with my musician friend Conner McKinney about the relevance of Christian music in our life. Whether it's Rock, Country or Hip Hop --- is it used by God for our spiritual quest? I say "Hell Yeah!" life would be dry without it. Enjoy!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Hey, welcome. In this episode, my buddy Connor and I chat about the purpose and effect of Christian music on our lives. If you're a musician or just love gospel music, then this is for you on the Bible Level Law. My very first memory of questioning the importance of music was back in about 1984 or so. It was Christmas Eve in Hamilton, Ontario, and I was up at about midnight listening to Judas Priest, as I did, and then my suburban neighbor's house caught on fire directly behind us. It seemed somebody was smoking in bed, and well, it was possibly one of the worst tragedies I've been close to. Most of the people in the house died, and their son lived, and he lost his entire family, sister, and parents. And I just found out recently that he was the one smoking. My brother-in-law was living next door to us back then, and he helped the kid climb the fence to escape the flames while we were waiting for the fire department. I watched most of it from my bedroom window, Christmas Eve. And I recall thinking, I bet Judas Priest doesn't care about life and death issues like this at all, while they're living the rock star dream and singing about useless human ponderances. So yes, rock music is useless. However, 40 years later, I'm still enjoying Judas Priest and rock music. Weirdly and wonderfully, the singer of Judas Priest has lived on to make three Christmas albums, and he says he truly loves Christmas music. I doubt it has anything to do with the incident behind my house, but Rob Halford's kind of an interesting person. So how important is music on the Christian journey? It's a part of our everyday life. Similar to books and movies and driving, it's just part of it. So today I have some fun chatting with my buddy Connor about the importance of music in our lives as Christians. So sit back, listen, grab a coffee, and enjoy. So welcome, Connor.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

My buddy Connor McKinney is here. And we just redid the podcast intro and extra. So you'll be able to listen to that with his voice and my music, which is kind of why we're together today. Yep. So the fun thing about Christian music is as a Christian, it's it actually keeps you going. So when I look back at my entire life as a Christian, especially a teenager, music was a part of that. So I'm curious how that was for you, Connor. Because for me it was all rock music in the 80s and listening to Christian music as much as listening to jazz, blues, country, heavy metal from the other things. But I always had that I need some Christian music in my life as well. Yeah. But what's your story?

SPEAKER_03 3:51

Oh, definitely. Uh I won't dive into my full testimony, but I grew up in the church, and so uh my parents played a lot of worship music, the classics, and so I grew up immersed in that, and it was definitely something that stuck with me. I remembered a lot of the lyrics, I remembered a lot of the melodies, but I ended up falling away from the faith for a while, and then I came back a few years ago. Ever since then, it became a lot more rich and vital to my walk with Christ, and there's been lows in my faith as anybody goes through, and it's been in those valleys where music has been extremely important to me and has helped just pick me up and put me back on my feet, and I think God uses these things. And so yeah, uh after coming back to faith, music was kind of a bit of a lifeline, and there's different genres I enjoy. There's a lot of things that I grew up with that I remembered when I came back to faith, and I put those in my playlist, and then there's a lot of new music that I discovered as well, genres that I didn't even know that Christians had actually dabbled in and tried their hand at, and and they do it very well actually, and so yeah, music is extremely important to me in my my faith walk for sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Oh, it is because I think back I've been playing guitar in church for over 40 years. So I've always had that church music as part of my life, and yet I almost never listen to church music because to me it's it's usually missing something that rock music and country music has. Although I always want it to be there, yeah, which is why Connor and I are often over here recording music, writing songs, because we're trying to make the music that we listen to so that other people can enjoy it as well. That's right. So, but yeah, it's funny. I think back when I was a teenager and I was a typical teenager, I would get drunk and stoned, and yet I would still need to listen to my Christian music just to try and get back whatever it is I just lost or messed up.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

So it was always palette cleanser.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah, and I always loved it, and I never felt like I got too far away from it as I would read the Bible throughout my teen years, no matter what I was doing, just being a confused young person. But the Christian music at the time did the same thing in the bands I had back then: Petra, Barnabas, kind of the resurrection band, the Daniel band, and they were all a part of my journey that kind of matched the secular stuff I was doing at the time, trying to play guitar in rock bands.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah. So one thing that's always on my mind is what is the purpose of Christian music? Whether rock music, we kind of know what church music is for. It's there to worship. But we're not really doing that. We're kind of on the other side of it. We're making entertaining Christian music, which is weird. A lot of people don't even like that at times. And yet, when country musicians or even opera musicians play spiritual music, it's wonderful. Yeah. But if rock bands do it or rap artists do it, then it's like, oh, well, that's not worship music. And I'm like, well, it doesn't need to be. It's it's entertaining theological music that draws us back to the Bible. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

Yeah. First Corinthians 10 31 says, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. And so I'd say there's different ways to worship the Lord, and our lives are worship. And so I think that uh people can have a very narrow perspective of what worship is, and it can be condensed to standing in church on a Sunday and lifting your arms and having a fuzzy feeling. But everything that we do, the way we live our lives, the way that we are the hands and feet of Jesus, the way we interact with believers and unbelievers, everything we do is worship. And uh I'd say that whether it's rap or rock or jazz or whatever it is, we're using the raw materials that God gave us and we're making something out of it that glorifies Him. With secular music, people take whether they acknowledge it or not, they still take the raw materials that God's given them and they use it to make music. And I'm not saying that that's a good thing or you should consume a bunch of secular music. Uh you gotta be careful with that and guard your heart. But for people to say that rap or rock or metal in the Christian way of doing it is not glorifying to God, I just think that's a very narrow perspective, and I think God still enjoys all of it. It's about the heart posture, it's not about the genre, it's about the individual or individuals who are creating that art. And if their heart is in the right place and they truly are doing it for the glory of God and the proclamation of the gospel, then I I think God loves it.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

I've always thought Christian rock music isn't that much different than Christian sports, yeah, in the sense that it's not necessarily theological, it's not a worship service. Sure. It's it's a Christian activity, yeah. Like sports, like Christian movie making, like being a Christian author. So yeah, that's the sports thing has always kind of thrown me that people will put such an importance on that. And I'm like, well, I think Christian rock music is is just as important as American football. As American football, exactly. Yeah. Although I probably just lost a hundred listeners right there. Ah that's okay. We're Canadians, what do we know? Yeah. But that's the fun thing about when you make music that doesn't need to be in the church. It doesn't need to fulfill a certain, I guess, space and time. It's just free when you're sitting on the bus, when you're driving your car, or just listening. That's the importance of music. That's why me and you have been musicians our entire lives because it does something. It's just a part of us, just like someone being an actor or a writer, or even an athlete. That's the gift God gave them. And uh, so it's great that you have a gift of music. But for me lately, the the greatest thing I found with Christian music is that it brings people together.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

And the best example is it brought me and you together.

SPEAKER_04 10:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Because I was sitting around one day thinking, oh, I'm writing a bunch of songs. I need to find a singer that can sing outside of what the church does, outside of what classic Christian music has done. I need a little more, I don't know, a little, a little more rap punk, something with energy, a little more dangerous. So because I needed that, and I'm a Christian, it brings people together. And same as being in a church band, like your wife has been in the church band for many years. And uh, that's the weirdest thing is you haven't. Connor, you've never been in a church band. Never, I know. That's bizarre. Yeah. Probably vacation's a process, probably be a fun place for you, but you don't need to. It's not for everybody. Like, I've never been on a Christian sports team, so there.

SPEAKER_04 11:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

And I often don't attend Christian Bible studies for the kind of the same reason that you probably don't sing in church in the band. I feel like that's it's just it's not what I do. I do my own. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

So sonically, I'm a bit out of their pocket, their their general sound and and sonic sphere, I guess. My wife has a very melodic, beautiful, yeah, worship team-esque voice, and I I don't.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Exactly. That's why I wanted to have you over to my house and start recording stuff because we're like, I don't want to make normal music. Yeah. So even like his voice, if you listen to the intro and the extra of the podcast, I wanted him to try some different things, whether whether talking, whispering, it just music has to be bigger than that. It has to be kind of adventurous and emotional.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

So and that's no shade to worship teams and what they do. There's a place for all of it. And I I love worship music. I still, you know, love uh a lot of not all of it. Of course, I'm not gonna like all of the music from every genre, but there is great music that is made for church services and for glorifying the Lord and worshiping him on a Sunday, but there's so much room outside of that as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Oh, there is, yeah. I was gonna ask you, do you have any favorite Christian songs, whether classic or new? Oh man. I made a list of my own. I gave you today. So one of my favorite songs of all time is we do it in church, but it's also not a church song. The revelation song is just about my favorite song. I can play it on guitar for an hour. So good. Nonstop. The other one is called We Believe, which is just pure theology in a song, which is something that's one of the reasons Connor and I got together to work on music, is we wanted to make the Bible come to life in songs. And We Believe, which the News Boys has done and some other bands have done it, I think is is that it's it's the entire Bible message of Christ in a song. Like that's the ultimate kind of achievement when you you know, before judgment day and you stand before God, and what did you do with your life? Well, I worked on this pretty awesome song about your son. Yeah, yeah. God would be like, Oh, that's okay, that's that was worth doing.

SPEAKER_04 13:27

Yeah, well done.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

So that's the thing is whenever you do music, it it really should be worth doing that it might even have eternal significance. So here's the lyrics to one of my favorite songs, We Believe. It goes, in this time of desperation, when all we know is doubt and fear, there is only one foundation. We believe, we believe. In this broken generation, when all is dark, you help us see. There is only one salvation, we believe. We believe in God the Father, we believe in Jesus Christ, we believe in the Holy Spirit, and he's given us new life. We believe in the crucifixion, we believe that he conquered death, we believe in the resurrection, and he's coming back again, we believe. So let our faith be more than anthems, greater than the songs we sing, and in our weakness and temptations, we believe. Let the lost be found and the dead be raised. In the here and now, let love invade. Let the church live loud, our God will say, We believe, we believe, and the gates of hell will not prevail, for the power of God has torn the veil. Now we know your love will never fail. We believe, we believe. He's coming back again. We believe. Wow, how many songs actually mentioned God has torn the veil? Very impressive. What else did I write down here? I wrote down, of course, Amazing Grace. So good. Have you ever actually sang it outside of church or just in church? I've sung it on my own.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

Have you? I sang it a lot on my own, actually. Do you think sometimes I just have the words to certain songs come to me or the melody, and I'll just start singing it just between God and I. And sometimes I actually do listen to those songs and we'll sing along to them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

I almost never do that, but I sh I I'm bad with lyrics.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

Oh man, my head is uh a library of lyrics. Oh, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yeah, but yeah, what a song. And then one of my other ones, don't know if you know this one or not, Uncloudy Day.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

I don't know that one actually.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

The churches used to do it. I think Willie Nelson did it a lot. Really? He may have even written it. Oh wow. But it's a classic 70s kind of Christian church song. That's kind of a country tune, but it's good. What else did I have in here? Because he lives. Which who wrote that? I think Bill Gaither wrote that. And churches have been doing that for the last almost 30 years. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

So is there one more song that uh oh man, there's so many songs from different genres. That's the thing. It's hard, it's always like when it's crunch time to actually think of it and and say it, it's like, oh my goodness. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if anybody would have heard of them, but one of my favorite Christian artists or groups, it's a collective of artists, is uh a rap group called Indie Tribe. Uh they're a Christian rap group, and they just released a an album, a very raw and honest and personal album that I think has never been seen in CHH and Christian hip-hop um to this degree, but it's called Who Do You Say I Am? And uh that's that's probably my favorite Christian rap group. But yeah, there's also a lot of artists outside of that that I love. I mean, I've I've delved into the country Christian, the rock, the metal, the classic worship. There's there's so many um beautiful albums and bodies of work out there. But yeah. Can't think of any particular songs right now.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Okay, no problem. Funny, one of the first things I think back when I met my wife, we were in a Christian band in touring Canada for a year. And the day I met her, I believe I went through her tape collection looking at what's what does she have? Yeah. Who is she listening to? Yeah. And she had a bunch of stuff from Amy Grant and DC Talk. Nice. And uh I just dug through it all and and we realized we both love Russ Taff and a few other Christian artists, Petra, of course. And I'm like, okay, I uh might be able to marry this girl later.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Actually, I just now that we're we're talking about it, uh one of my favorite artists who whose music has been used in the church, uh, who I think is awesome and pretty timeless, is is David Crowder, actually. Wow. And uh both when he was David Crowder band and his his uh stuff that he's done solo, and one of my favorite songs is How He Loves Us. Yep. I can't remember if that's the title, if it's yeah, How He Loves or something. Yeah, yeah. Super phenomenal song, but David Crowder has a lot of really good music.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah, every time I bring him up on YouTube, I'm always somewhat shocked by his music because I always think it's going to be one thing. Because I'll listen to his previous album, so I'd be like, oh, he's probably gonna do that again.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

And he doesn't. It he pushes it on right back or else.

SPEAKER_04 18:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

And so yeah, if you're ever bored with Christian music, check out David Crowder.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Listen to David Crowder.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

I'm not really much up on his theology. As far as I know, it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah, yeah. And that's a a huge issue I have with church musicians and as well as Christian musicians is do they actually know what they're singing about? Sure. And I've found that many don't.

SPEAKER_04 18:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Which is weird. And that's why, as as Connor and I are always writing songs, we spend more time talking about our lyrics and what they mean and and how they come from the Bible than actually singing and writing. Because it's it's so important as a Christian that you gotta get the story right. Oh, yeah. And so every time I hear a Christian musician, I'm like, did they get it right? Yeah. And you find out sometimes they they cut a few corners and and most people in that listen to Christian music aren't that fussy.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Which is okay. Everyone's on a different kind of level and path in their journey, but sure, yeah. But when it comes to Christian music and Christian rock music, it's you really gotta pay attention. So I'm glad when I'm there is musicians that pay attention.

SPEAKER_03 19:22

I think that goes back to exhibit A, how we started this topic is like the whole entertainment versus actually doing it for God is there are artists out there who either couldn't make it as a secular artist or for whatever reason didn't end up being successful in that avenue, and so they do make Christian music. Yeah. For whatever reason.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

That's a strange reason. Because there's not a lot of money in most Christian music.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

Most, yeah. Or or they just, like you said, they just don't have great theology, or maybe they don't know the word very well. And yeah, but that's kind of the difference. Some people do it for entertainment, and some people are actually very prayerful, and they have sound theology, they have a really solid relationship with the Lord. I think that it definitely shows. Especially if the consumer also has a good relationship with God, knows the word. That's why it's really important to know scripture and to have sound theology. And uh that's that's a process of reading the word and and memorizing it, retaining it, and and just being prayerful, but you can generally discern who actually has a solid relationship with God.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yeah, it's funny sometimes when I'm in church and we're singing a song, especially in some of my previous churches, I'll go through the lyrics and I'll realize you could sing this song in a Mormon church, in a Jehovah's Witness church, yeah, in Moonies, and you could the songs are sometimes so vague, vague and empty. Yeah. You know, I love you, God. Well, that's nice. Which God? That's very universalist. Yeah, it is. So I'm always like, I want Christian songs, especially if they're coming from a hymnal or they're or they're great church songs. I want them to say something, say something specific that separates us from everybody else.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yeah, it's hard to do that sometimes. Sometimes it's you know, it is just a love song.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

And at the end of the day, it's pulling the the meat from the bones. Sometimes you can't actually discern if like only the Lord knows someone's heart postures. Sometimes there's situations where you can clearly see someone and be like, they're actually not living for the Lord, or you could see them be like, that guy's really on fire for the Lord, but there's situations where you're in the middle and it's like, I don't know, like sometimes people aren't they're not trying to like show it off, or they're just it's a very personal relationship with God, and they're not trying to like push the narrative that they're super on fire or whatever. They just they're confident in their relationship with the Lord, and you can't always tell who's who, but um the Lord knows people's heart posture, and so when you're listening to music, regardless of who's made it. I think that you can pull meat from the bones and you can still worship the Lord and you can still enjoy the music as long as it's not heresy.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah, that's a tricky one because one person's kind of theological love is usually another person's heresy.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

That's why I'm waiting for more people to write, you know, reformation type Christian songs about you know election or God's sovereignty.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Or if you want to deal with the charismatic issues and put that into a song, you're gonna upset one group or another either way, like even if you do baptism or any other issue that is kind of divisive. But we gotta, you know, you gotta write what what you know as a theologian best. So that's what me and you have been picking picking away at saying, Oh, yeah, how do we get some of these uh issues that are maybe a little deeper into a song?

SPEAKER_04 22:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

So and I don't know if we've done it yet, but we're still working on the darkness and light angles, yeah, which are kind of neat that uh God's in charge of it all. A hundred percent. One of my funnest thoughts I have is when we get to heaven, what kind of music are we gonna make?

SPEAKER_04 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

And it's everything, you know. Are we going to have electric guitars and keyboards? We might. Yeah, maybe we might not. Are we gonna have Christian punk music? We might.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

Yeah, that would be pretty sweet.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

I'm sure we're gonna have, you know, Christian reggae and Christian hymns, Christian classical themes, you know, especially if Bach is there and I don't know who else would have made it. Brahms. There's there's a few Christian classical composers. Maybe Ozzy at the end of his life. Nah, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Last I heard, he professed to be a Christian at the end of his life.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah, but then he sang a song to Satan as he was one of his last songs. Did he actually?

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Yeah. Well, don't take my word for it then. Yeah, that's too bad. That's but we're hoping. Always hope. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah, but I'm always thinking like one of my goals get to heaven and hopefully be able to play whatever whatever instrument they might hand me. Sure. Whether it's a piano or a lute, or maybe it is an electric guitar. I'm I'm excited. I just want to be in the band. Yeah, yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_03 24:16

That's that's actually a great question, and it's something that I've thought about as well. And it's hard when we have this more cultural understanding or picture of heaven and the afterlife, and you picture a bunch of angels singing a cappella to the Lord, and it's like, I don't know. I feel like there could be space for other genres, and even what you were saying, playing a guitar, all these instruments, there might be like advanced versions of what we know as instruments here on earth, and uh just like I think there will be new colors and sounds and things that we haven't experienced here. Wow, there might be different instruments to produce those new sounds. I don't know. I I totally think it's possible, but it'd be pretty awesome if we had multiple different genres and you know, if we sing a cappella for eternity, that's cool. That's fine too. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Although I do expect there to be instruments and drums. Oh, 100%. And I also can imagine, let's say, you know, if there's a billion people in heaven worshiping the Lord, whether it'll be once a week or once a day. I know, I thought about that. It'll be uh it's it'll be a musical church service. Yeah, like we can't imagine.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

And I don't think it'll ever get boring. And the funny thing is, the rock stars of today may not even be in the band. Yeah, it may be some singing slaves from you know back in the Roman era that were Christians, like it may be people throughout history that were musicians that never got to do even close to what we've done in our life as Christian musicians.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

So, do you think that there might be some people who just aren't musicians or singers in heaven? They're just in the audience, yeah. Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

There's always got to be an audience. Not everybody loves music or has a desire for it. Sure, sure. And that I always look at that too, because I meet people who they don't like reading. And so people are always like, You gotta read your Bible. And I'm like, Some people they just don't like reading. Yeah, listen to it, and they can listen to it, yeah, or they can talk about it, sure, but reading's not their thing. And I go through phases where I love reading and studying, and then I'll go two months where I do none. Yeah, and it it's up and down, same as music and you know, even movies. I'll go through phases where yeah, I'm good, I don't need to watch or anything. So, and so that'll be kind of neat to see in church. We're gonna have an eternity of getting to know it and learning these new songs because we're probably gonna get some new songs. I'm pretty sure God knows we get bored easily. Yeah, it's our human nature, even though we'll have a new human nature. Yeah, who's no? I can't wait to hear the stairway to heaven song we're gonna write when we're actually in heaven. Yeah, like a classic that will be remembered for all time. Oh, yeah, but it really will be all time, it'll be for a million years. Yeah, so and then I'm looking forward to meeting musicians. Like, well, Elvis tried to be a Christian. Can you imagine hanging out with Elvis? And that would be cool. That would be kind of neat to see these people, and they'll be humble. You'll you'll get the humblest kind of version of these people saying, I'm just glad I'm here. Yeah, and whether I sing or don't sing, or God wants me gardening or be a janitor, yeah. We made it. Yeah, so music's good. So that's kind of exciting. Yeah, it's funny. We often talk about both of our wives make a lot of music.

SPEAKER_04 27:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

My wife has been making church music for her whole life, yeah. And your new wife has been making church music for a while. I'm not even sure how long.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Yeah, not to say that I have an old wife. I I've only I have one wife. I've only ever had one wife. The wife.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Um, how long has she been making music? Yeah. Oh man. Uh she grew up in the church and she was singing in the choir from a really young age. Oh, I didn't know that. Little kid. Yeah. Yeah, but as far as actually like recording her own music, going into studios, doing that kind of thing, I think she's been doing that for oh man, let me think about it. Probably like seven, eight years. Oh, good. Yeah. Um is it true?

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Did our wives kind of meet in at the women's retreat at our church?

SPEAKER_04 28:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

And were they both in the band? I believe. Oh. They might have been. That would have been three years ago or more. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Yeah, I don't know if my wife was in the on the worship team at that point. I wasn't sure.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Um, yeah, if it was that long ago, I don't know if she was, but my wife Julie met her mother. Yes. And and they became good friends back at this women's retreat. Can confirm that is where they met. Yeah. Which is neat because part of that is through music, yeah, and stuff like that. But then Connor and I I should probably tell you listeners out there, he's my son's best friend when they were growing up. And so he spent a lot of time at our house, well, his whole teenage years.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

And but we never did anything with music together until 15 years later. Yeah. When you got married and moved on, and my son has moved out.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Yeah, I hadn't seen you in years since I was a kid. I was just that kid that came over and ate all your food and watched movies in your baseball.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Only big. You should be bringing food over every time you come. That's true. So eventually you're still eating my food, and that's okay. I'm still eating your food.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Some things never change.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Every time I get Connor to come over, usually my wife makes something for him. Oh, that's awesome. We just eat greater. And he's always hungry. Always. I don't think I've ever seen you. I'm always hungry. Yeah. Yeah. Which is good because my wife loves to cook and she's good at it. But yeah, it's funny. It's just great how music I've met so many people in my life, whether church musicians or other musicians or guitar collectors, just through music. And you're telling me you have friends in the US and all over.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Yeah, no, I've there's a lot of people in my life that make music. It's the universal language.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

I think it is. Yeah. Because no matter what country I'm in, when my wife and I go on vacation or cruise, we find music no matter where we are, whether it's Guatemala, Colombia, Mexico, Alaska. My wife and are always, where's the music? Yeah. Let's go find something.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

And that's the beautiful part, is no matter what language it's in or what instruments they're using, respective to their culture, you can always appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yeah. And it really isn't, it doesn't hold anyone back. Yeah. Because it's sound.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

And you everybody is allowed to contribute sound. Yeah. Whether you're a dog or a screaming baby, there is sound you can bring to the occasion.

SPEAKER_04 30:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

And that's funnily enough, that's one of the things I love about church. That if you do have little kids running down the aisles playing and screaming, that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

That's the sound of church. Yeah. And I know some people get upset and you know they want it to be quiet and respectful. And I'm like, I'm just glad they're here. Oh, yeah, 100%. Thank you. Sounds like heaven. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a a thought this week because I was thinking, you know, as much as I love the music I make, which is almost always rock music, that if I could get my grandkids and my kids to go to church, I would go and listen to whatever they have. Yeah. I would be willing to put aside my own worship music just because they're there. So, and I know a lot of people wouldn't do that. They like what they like. But for me, if my kids were going to a church, I would probably leave my church. My wife and I, we'd probably go where they're going. Sure. If this is a chance to be together with family and grandkids on a Sunday, it's worth it. Oh, yeah. So the church is more important than the music.

SPEAKER_04 31:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

But at the same time, if you're going to be there, you might as well make great music. There's no reason not to.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Yeah. And that's the beautiful part about the church is it's uh it's not just reduced to a building. The church is the people, it's the human beings that make up the body of Christ. And so anywhere you go, you're gonna be fellowshipping with brothers and sisters.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Oh, exactly. I often tell people when I'm chatting in music stories with them that I'm pretty sure as a Christian I've played with a hundred drummers. Oh, yeah, in differ in different church bands. Because my wife and I have probably been involved in eight or nine different church bands and conference bands and stuff for church. And we've I've met a hundred drummers. Oh yeah. And I usually say that, well, maybe five of them were really good. The rest were okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

But the same as guitar players and singers, you meet so many people. And I tell people online, I'm on a few um church worship music forums, and a lot of people tell me they've never played music outside of their homes. They have no one to play with, they're lonely, they own instruments, and I like, you know, if you join a church, yeah, you can actually get out and play.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

And because there's not as many bars and and restaurants and you know, clubs as there used to be for live music.

SPEAKER_04 33:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

So once again, throughout history, the church seems to have all the music. Yeah. I'm not sure how much you've looked back at at music through history and especially through the church, but I found out most historical music has been church music. And most art throughout history has been through the church. There's been so much, and now we kind of lost it. I don't know what happened. There's a some period in the, I don't know whether it was the 60s or 70s. We forgot what colors were, yeah, we forgot what good music was, and and we got stuck back in the 1800s for some reason. We got an organ and a piano the way God intended. And I'm like, well, no, organs and pianos were brand new at one time. Yeah, as were a modern drum kit, was brand new at one time, yeah, and same as keyboards and electric guitars. And so I'm always thinking the church should once again be where you go for art and music. And I've been learning about the the Christian movie industry as well as the Christian book industry, and finding out the church is very busy. Yeah, we're always making art. Yeah, it's just doesn't seem to rise up and get the popularity that it should, because some of it's not very good, yeah. But some of everything isn't very good. Yeah. So that's why I like to think when Connor and I work on music that maybe it is the future of church music. At least at least it's music we're gonna like.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Sure, yeah, yeah. And whether it gets played or sung in churches, it can still reach believers and and unbelievers alike. Yeah, it can it can reach people who are in their walk with Christ and meet them where they're at, and they can listen in their headphones or their car even if they're not at the church, and hopefully it still resonates and it helps them, because that's been my experience. Again, there's a lot of times where I enjoy the music on Sunday and I lift my hands and worship to the Lord and I sing uh these songs that we often sing, but a lot of my journey has been listening to very honest, raw, personal music, just like the psalms. I think a lot of people can get stuck in the we need to just focus on pushing past all the negative and the hardship and just just worship the Lord regardless. And there there's some truth to to that, to um being content in all circumstances and praising God. But we go back and we look at the Psalms of David and they're very honest. There's parts where he's like, Praise the Lord, this this is great, and there's parts where he's in the valley and he's like, I want to die. Why why was I born? And it's it's raw and it's honest, and those are the songs, the type of songs and artists that have met me where I'm at and have really helped in my walk with Christ. Because I'm like, hey, I'm not alone in this, in this struggle, in this wrestle, in this race that we're all running, and I can relate to this. It gives me hope because there's a tension of yes, this is really hard, but God is also good simultaneously.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Yeah, I've always had hope and joy through church music. Even as a kid sitting in church, I would open the hymnal and I just start reading the words to some of the hymns we've never sang before. And you find out some of these things are amazing, either they're battle hymns, yeah, or they're just people crying out to God, or they're just a moment of biblical theology in a song, and you find out, well, if they don't have a catchy tune, they generally don't get sung. Yeah, but they're still great lyrics. So I think some of the classic hymn songs need to be redone.

SPEAKER_04 37:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Which is when Connor and I got together here, um, one of my goals was we need to take the Bible, especially verses and and some themes, and put them directly into songs. So that's what we agreed on when we first started making music together. Yep. And now we're just trying everything we can to make things listenable and and kind of dangerous, and yet make a theological point about some part of God that people might grab onto and be like, oh, that's that's something I need to think about more. Yeah. So that's the great thing about music, is it's limitless for what discussion or topic you would always want to put into a song.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

Yes. Scripture is endlessly interesting, and there's so much that you can do with it sonically.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Yeah, there's not enough talking donkey songs. Oh, yeah. I'm I I'm aware of that. Yeah, a bunch of things. Even David and Goliath, there's not enough songs like doing that. For some reason, we all I guess the great musicians of history have just they found the nice things to think about.

SPEAKER_04 38:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

I'm like, I want to hear people sing about some of the weird moments in the Bible.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Oh, yeah, or the the battle songs that are sung. I mean, even when the Israelites cross through the Red Sea and it swallows up the Egyptians, and then they all bust out their percussions and they're singing this wild battle song. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

So I'm always curious what your future is. Because Connor and I here, we make music together, but he's he's got some projects outside of that, and as do I. I'm always writing instrumental guitar parts and songs. But uh, what are you working on that we can expect one day?

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Oh, it's a great question. I can't uh say exactly when it'll come out, but I am working on an album right now for those that don't know. Well, nobody's gonna know. Um I I make Christian rap, uh CH, uh Christian hip hop, and so I'm working on an album right now. It'll be my first body of work that I'm putting out. I plan on putting out a single right before I release the album, or at least a few months before I release the album. But yeah, I'm just working a regular job right now and saving up to put money into that. Uh my wife and I have twins on the way, so you know, I'm trying to be responsible with finances and provide and that's exciting. Yeah, and simultaneously invest in uh my art and my future. So hopefully sometime towards the end of this year or beginning of next year, I'm gonna have at least a single out and then hopefully the album rolling out as well. Yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Yeah, we're gonna have to find time around babies. Yes, around your twins, yeah, to make music. So well, Connor and I usually get together once a week. So that's our goal. Yeah. But as life gets busy and we both have careers and I'm often truck driving, it's it's a challenge to get together, but we've told ourselves this is important enough that we need to keep doing it.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

So, and when we do finish songs, we'll put them on this podcast because that's what it's here for. This is kind of why I made the podcast, just for all of my Christian journey to kind of be captured, whether musically or theologically, or as a Bible study. Someday, hopefully, my grandchildren will listen to. Amen. And and my kids. It's it's like my diary. That's why I made this podcast. So thank you for all you people out there that have been listening to it. It is my thoughts and and my experience and my questions and what I rage against and all thing, but there's always Christian music attached to it. That's why I wanted to make a new theme again. And I thought, oh, okay, let's let's see if Connor can can help me make my theme just a little bit better. So I'm still working on it, but you heard it in the beginning, and there's another one at the end. And music is just fun. If if you don't do music, you should probably find an instrument. Yeah. Because I have a theory that every person on the world in the world is musical. They just haven't found their instrument yet.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

And for me, I tried piano, I tried drums a little bit, I tried singing. It was horrible. And then I played guitar, and guitar was just it was the instrument I was meant to play. Yeah. And uh, same as my wife, she's tried many instruments, but singing and drumming just speak to her. Yeah. And uh, like other instruments don't, like guitar and bass and and piano are just a different way of thinking. So I hate when I meet someone who has the wrong instrument. And I can usually tell in a few seconds that that's not your instrument.

SPEAKER_04 41:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Which is funny. That's why I invited you over because I knew you could sing.

SPEAKER_04 41:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Just because there was something there that a lot of church singers I work with don't have. They can sing nice, they can even lead worship, but you can't put it on an album. You can't, they they got the passion and emotion isn't there to be worked with the way it needs to be in a real song. Sure. So that's why we make music to try and capture that and share it with other people that may not be able to do that. That's not their gift that God has given them.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

And I'm I'm honored to be a part of this on the podcast and just uh part of your music journey as well. And I I do think that God brought us together, and I don't know what the outcome of that's gonna be, but I've enjoyed the journey so far and it's been a lot of fun, and I think that we're making some really, really good music that uh people actually enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

So yeah, it's pretty exciting because I wasn't sure at first. I'm getting older and uh you're still in your youth. Yeah. Well, kind of. I'll catch up. Yeah, but we're like, oh, we gotta start finishing some some work, yes, finishing songs, finish an album. That's why we gave ourselves kind of a deadline, yeah, you know, of a year. So it's that thing you gotta do, you gotta get stuff done. So whether you people out there, whether you're writers or actors, no matter what you do, or you build gardens for God, anything, you gotta get it done. You have to chip away at it and just contribute to your success.

SPEAKER_04 43:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

And so that's what uh that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_04 43:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

So it's exciting. So yeah, well, let's wrap this up with a prayer on the way out. And you can all join me at home there. So thank you everyone for listening. And uh I'll say thank you, God, for all you've done in our life, that this journey of being a Christian, dealing with your truth and the passions you give us and the Holy Spirit that works with us. That uh thank you. That you're just an amazing God that keeps speaking to us and using us, that we can reach out to others and make disciples in all nations, that people will come to know you just based on how you work in our lives, and then they can carry that on to their kids and grandkids and neighbors. And so, yeah, the Christian journey is is so much, it's well worth doing. It gives you a joy that nothing else I've ever found or tried in this life has done. So thank you so much, Lord, that uh you have. You've called us to something that is exciting and that just draws us closer together. Because in other words, Connor and I have to sit around talking about sports, which we're not gonna do. So thank you, Lord. Uh just the joy in the journey. An amazing thing. So thank you, listeners. So have a good one. The Bible outlawed.