Great Places, For Life – Connecting with Country through Indigenous Design and Research

In this special edition of The People and Place podcast, our guests share a unique perspective on the built environment, looking at our industry through an Aboriginal lens and experience. 

Join our host Michael Hromek – Technical Executive: Indigenous Design, Knowledge and Architecture, WSP and our guests (and Michael’s sisters) Dr Danièle Hromek – Academic, Research and Spatial Designer and Sian Hromek – Senior Consultant: Research and Design, WSP, as they discuss Indigenous design and research, how we can all connect to Country, and the ways that engaging with Aboriginal community and incorporating Indigenous design contributes to inclusive, Future Ready places.

Show notes and References: 

‘Thoughts on the Philosophical Underpinnings of Aboriginal Worldviews’ written by Dr. Mary Graham

‘Cities of Whiteness’ written by  Wendy S. Shaw

‘The Biggest Estate on Earth: How Aborigines Made Australia’ written by Bill Gammage

‘Covered by Concrete’ artwork created by Danièle Hromek, Sian Hromek and Michael Hromek 

Transcript

Intro: Welcome to a special edition of the People and Place podcast where today we welcome three siblings: Michael, Sian and Daniele Hromek who all work across Indigenous Design, research and architecture for the built environment. 

Join us as they discuss how everyone can connect with Country, the journey they’ve been on to get into the industry, and the ways that Indigenous design and research contribute to inclusive, Future Ready places. 

Here is Daniele Hromek leading with an Acknowledgement of Country.

Danièle: [Acknowledgement of Country]

Welcome friends. It's good to see you or hear you or speak to you. 

I'm speaking from Dharug lands. I pay my honest and genuine respect to elders and acknowledge what they've done to ensure that I can be here to speak with you at this moment.

I asked that you tread lightly on country. Country is wherever you are, country is everywhere. And I was speaking in Dharug just then, in Dharug language.

Michael: Hi everyone. And welcome to the People and Place podcast by WSP. I'm Michael Hromek, WSP's indigenous architecture, design knowledge, technical executive and PhD researcher at the University of Technology. Today, I'm joined with my lovely sisters, Danièle and Siân, how are you going? 

Danièle: Hello. 

Michael: So, we're all in the industry in terms of Aboriginal design knowledge, research, country and we all come from different aspects and I just wanted to have a yarn with them.

We're going to talk about getting into the industry, how we all got into. A bit of background about us, talk about indigenous design and place in a little bit more detail, and then moving forward, what's the future of what we're dealing with? So, Siân, Dani, do you want to introduce yourselves? 

Danièle: Which one of us do you want to go first? 

Michael: Danièle? 

Siân: Elders first, Dani. Doctors before non-doctors. 

Danièle: Okay. Well, Siân's just outed me as a doctor.  Uh, I'm a Doctor of Design in the spacial design discipline and how Aboriginal people know love, sense, feel our spaces. How we've always told stories about space and the relationship between space and country. And how through colonization space has been impacted for Aboriginal people and how we can reclaim space using cultural practice.   Since then I've been working in a few different roles, but working at the moment through Djinjama, which is my indigenous corporation.  And we do cultural design and research for projects in the built environment.

Michael: Wow. That's so good to hear you just sum all of that up, in one go, just bam. This is what you're doing. Siân?

Siân:  Hi, my name's Siân Hromek. I'm currently a senior researcher with WSP's indigenous specialist services. I'm also an independent director on the Firesticks Alliance, indigenous corporation. I manage a native Bush foods finger lime nursery, and to what I call collaborating with country like caring with country, but working on country, planting and interacting with the ecology and the nature of a place. And I do that in a team of people in the hinterland of Byron bay.

Michael: Thanks, Siân. So, a bit about me before we get into the yarn. I'm an architect and still trying to complete my PhD, technical exec with WSP and what we're doing there with Siân leading research and a whole bunch of other talented Aboriginal people doing engagement and other roles. We're engaging with Aboriginal communities through design and enabling co-designed practices.   I'm really interested in the design aspects of those things. So really excited to talk about those today. And what I love is that I've learned pretty much everything about that from Dani and Siân. There's a benefit of being the youngest sibling, I think, I get all of your learning and hardships that you both went through. Before we talk about that, do you want to talk a little bit about our family? 

Danièle: For sure. So, we're descended from the Budawang people, and that's now part of the Yuin nation.  Budawang were Dhurga speakers. They still are. That's a language that's being reclaimed at the moment and I'm trying to learn bits and pieces of it. So, the Budawang are from the South Coast of New South Wales around the sort of Braidwood all the way out to the coast around Moruya, Bateman's Bay we've got elders in Ulladulla as well.

There’s actually a national park named after the Budawang, so you can get an idea about where it is. And we've got a lot of relationships all the way up and down the coast. Cause our family were dispossessed of country a hundred, more than 150 years ago now. And they left on a boat.

Our grandmother still carries that story about what happened as part of our oral history. And they went to the mid North Coast around Nambucca where they lived in a place near Eungai called Brown's Crossing, which is named after our family. So, we're descended from the Browns, which is a big mob of people all over New South Wales actually now.  And the Browns, we're actually part of the Black Clegg line of the Brown family. 

We also have European heritage. You can probably tell from our surname that's Czech. Our grandfather was Czech. And I've got my grandmother's French ness in my first name, so Danièle. And they after the war hitchhiked across Europe through the Middle East to Asia. They made it to Vietnam, where of course they were, being colonized by the French at the time. The French were losing the war. And so, because our grandmother was French, they were evacuated to Singapore where they caught a freighter to Carnarvon in Western Australia. They then hitchhiked down to Perth and across the Nullarbor plain, which dad says was just a dirt track at the time, through the desert to Sydney where dad popped out pretty much straight away and spoiled all their plans to keep going over to get all of the wealth of America, which apparently was what they were planning to do.

Michael: They wanted to go pick up gold from the streets, right. Expanding on the other side of our family, this leads into the kind of question, the next question of how do we get into our field? Tell us about how you both got into it in relation to understanding our heritage and that kind of thing. 

Siân: To be honest I was inspired by you, Michael. I thought when you started architecture, I thought, wow, if Michael could do that, I can do that. Because I'd never thought that I could do something like that, even though I found it interesting. And then after traveling Europe and seeing some of the places our European side had come from and lived in, I was quite inspired by how impressive the built environment can be.

So I started studying landscape architecture at Griffith University and once I completed that it was once again, Mike, you were propositioned by Firesticks to work for them, and you were doing your PhD. So, you passed it onto me. And I picked up that work and learned about cultural burning and how to look after country through  applying the right type of fire, the good fire, that the country needs, which is a cool burn rather than a hot wildfire, which is what happens when we don't burn.

So learning all of this has pushed me along that pathway further into that collaborating with country sort of space. Where it's a reciprocal relationship that you develop and you learn, as you learn, you can help the healing process within yourself and within country. That's how I've ended up towards this field.

You needed someone to help with research Michael in, in WSP. And so, this is how I landed in this job. But I think it was through our Covered by Concrete project that really, we started developing the methodology together, which is investigating country. And then coming up with a design response was fed by the research and understanding of country.

Michael: Yeah what do you do in your daily work, Siân.

Siân: I generally spend the day developing Aboriginal designs principles document for each project that we work on in WSP. So, in the major projects department in WSP, we aim to have 80% of all major projects to have an Aboriginal design principles document. And this informs the project team, as well as the client whose country are, they working on and what are some of the unique attributes and features of that country that may be able to then feed into the design response?

It’s a way also of bringing community into the conversation quite early.  So that we're not progressing and finishing a project and then going, oh, we need to bring community in, cause that's just the backwards way to go. So, we're doing it the other way, which is bring country in really early into the project team awareness and, putting the design opportunities on the table.  And yeah, I research country people culture and get the ball rolling on that document.

Michael: And so much in that. Got to unpack it all, but that's awesome, Siân. Dani, how did you get into this?

Danièle: I was trying to think about how I got in. I actually don't know if I have an answer to that. Mum says that she used to wake up when I was a little girl, before you two were even with thought of, and I'd already created a whole book and drawn everything, and I would tell her the story.  That's probably how I started trying to tell stories. I'm still not the best storyteller, I’ve been trying now a few years.

As a teenager in high school, I did a lot of design work and a lot of that had spatial outcomes. And then went and explored Europe for quite some years. And then had my own business over there, which was a design business and amongst other things.

That's probably when I thought this could be done as a job.  So, I decided that I was going to get the qualifications and not just work around the edges, but jump in. And when I finished those ones, I was like what am I going to do now? So, I just kept going and went to the top of the Western qualifications that I could get.  I don't look at myself as being an entrepreneur or a business owner, but I keep running into that and having businesses and having my own thing. And perhaps it's just a part of a bit of an independence in me that likes to have my own way of working and be a sovereign person, if you want to put it like that. And also, be able to give back to other people through the process.  

I can make decisions about how to bring community into projects really easily and elders as much as community into projects and see those outcomes in a rich way. And I can also make decisions like, acknowledging that women are always behind things in men at the moment, because we live in a patriarchal society. And I can say those sorts of things too, as a small businessperson. And readdress those sorts of things as an Aboriginal woman, who's even at the bottom of the pile, by making sure that Aboriginal women that I work with have something to work towards in their future. 

I try and look at those kinds of things as part of not just something I have to do, but something that's my delight to do because I was gifted the opportunities. Because our grandparents on both sides worked like donkeys to get us to the point in jobs that were completely manual labor and tough going and probably underpaid and undervalued in order that we could do what we do now.

Michael: That's such a good point.

Siân: Very true.

Michael: We'll talk about what we do now, which is wrapped in principles and guidelines. And Dani, I think, could you talk a little bit about your research and your work journey. 

Danièle: In my own work, I work on projects of state significance primarily. That means things like hospitals, schools, precinct planning, master planning courts, things that community directly need in order that this system that we have keeps working. And that's challenging because I want the system to not work as it currently is because I don't think the system does work, but at the same time, I want to change it.

The projects are very varied, if you think about how you design for all of those different types of structures or places or precincts or scales.  They're all requiring different outputs, be that feeding into literal plans and architectural work to research that is really a different way of thinking about How the process of designing can happen and should happen.

And that helps to even if it's one mind changed per project; it helps to change minds. And maybe in the, this is my hope in that each project, somebody does something a bit differently. And as a result, things are better for country.  And hopefully as a result of things as being better for country, they're also better for people and all the other that share country.

Michael: So, to get there, we're talking about principles to apply to whatever given project or whatever, given focus on country.  So how did we get to those principles? What's the origin of that?

Danièle: I have a question that I ask, I'm going to start because I'm the oldest. I'm just going to start with this question that I ask, which most people don't know I'm asking in projects, which is how we can live here in this place forever.

And when you ask that question, you have to come at it with a different perspective. And it forces those working with me to think about things like sustainability in a different way and materiality and how things are going to be accessed and how things are going to be referenced. So that's the starting question that I have for all projects at the moment. I don't know if that'll change, but I want us to start to think about foreverness in our projects.

Michael: What's a great framing to get your thinking about aspects that Aboriginal people and culture can reflect upon and be useful for built-to-design design outcomes or engineering outcomes.  

Siân: Especially cause Aboriginal people, we generally do everything for the next generation or not just the next generation, but the next 10 generations.   Putting that longer timescale into it does change the focus and it's more of a relational interaction rather than survival, so to speak.

So I was listening to Aunty Mary Graham, she's a Kombumerri Yugambeh woman. She's a doctor too. She's awesome. Recommend anyone listen to her. And yeah, she talks about the Western system is a bit more of a pyramid and it's a survival thing people are wrestling each other to get to the top of the pyramid, whereas indigenous systems and thinking is much more of a flat system.

So more egalitarian, every voice is valid and it's a relational interaction. So instead of trying to climb on top of someone else to get to the top, it's like a nice circle that relationships are the most important thing.  

Danièle: It's also about, enoughness. What do we really need to live in this world? And there's some beautiful work that's being done around enoughness and how that changes again, that question of how you design.  

Michael:  I was just going to say, is this what connecting with country is about? Because that's a term we hear a lot now. It's an important term.  Enoughness. Is this what connecting with country is? 

Siân:  It feeds into it, doesn't it? Knowing a place, knowing it really well, treating it like a relation rather than a commodity.  So, it's a shift in thinking and a shift in the way that we relate to our environment and the things that support us.  Without country we would not exist. It's just that simple. There's an obligation to look after country cause it's actually supported us in our development as beings. It feeds us every day. It makes sure we're warm because the sun is there.   It's endless. So, the amount of support we get from country, so connecting with countries, yeah, I think enoughness is an element in changing the way that you relate to country or relate to the place that you live.

Danièle: I think connecting with country also is about a personal commitment to address systemic imbalances. And to do that through not continuing the same business as usual that has always been perpetuated in the last 230 years. So that means looking at how the systems can be tweaked changed, completely rolled over to be different systems.

I think it's also about each one of us working towards a genuine, rich, fulfilling relationship with country. And this is where I feel sorry for non-indigenous people and I don’t mean feel sorry in a negative way. But I feel sad that that connection that Aboriginal people have had despite colonization, despite disconnection, still have that connection because it's so recent compared to non-indigenous people. Whose country in the inverted commas is a long way ago. Whereas for First Nations people all around the world, we still know that connection because we still feel it and live it.

And that's where I get the sadness for non-indigenous people that they haven't got that, and you see them seeking it. And I desperately wish for them to gain it because we all have to. And it's a sense of something that probably there isn't a word for in English. So, we call it connecting with country or caring with country, but there is a sense. Extra sensory, if you want, another sense, a feeling that comes through that deep knowing and love of country and of places. And I really encourage non-indigenous people to seek that. And I have to be honest, it'll probably take you the rest of your life to find it, but I really encourage you to seek it.  And to look back at your own story and find out where that was misconnected. 

Aunty Mary Graham does talk about this in one of her writings. And if you haven't read it, it will blow your head off and you'll lose your brain for about a week after you read it. And then it'll start to help put things back into context. But there's a piece of writing she did quite a while ago now. I think it’s; I can't remember the name of it, but it's something like Some Philosophical Thoughts and I really agree with you, Siân. She's just such a beautiful person to read and listen to. And her way of thinking really contextualizes things beautifully.

Siân: Some Thoughts on the Philosophical Underpinnings of Aboriginal Worldviews. Is her paper.   

Michael: Just, I was just going to pick up on the idea of seeking and people seeking out what a connection with country or relationship with country. That's an interesting thought. And I can think of people going on long holidays or getting near to nature areas to get away, and in an urban context, that's even more bizarre.  So even people who can't have a strong relationship with a piece of land or territory, can they still feel a connection to country? 

Danièle: They have to. 

Michael: So how would they seek that out?   I'm living in Sydney. So how do I begin that journey?

Danièle: Yeah, it's even more important for people in urban contexts. Sorry, this is where my research is grounded, and I chose to do my research about my own connection with country in Sydney. Because I wanted to say, if I can do it in Sydney, I can do it anywhere.  I think it's extremely important for people in urban contexts because they can get lost in the thought that, oh well, this place is already wrecked, so it doesn't matter what we do here, but actually it's the reverse.

Michael: Or it's already cared for, so I don't need to care for it. 

Danièle: Yeah well, it's not even cared for, it's beyond cared for. And so, I think that connection has to happen where you are. That's the first point. You don't need to go anywhere else to find a connection with country. Uncle Greg Simms, who's Gadigal, Dharug, Gandangara and a Yuin Budawang elder. So, he's a blood relation of ours. I asked him this question while I was doing my PhD and he was so generous with me to answer some of my really dumb questions. And I don't mean that I'm dumb, but the questions were pretty much like, how do I contextualize this for everybody?

And I said, you know, so what is their country still in the urban context? And he was offended, which I was glad for. And he said, yeah, your ancestors still walk here. They're still, we're moving around the land here. They still have their footsteps here. And they still care for this place and all you have to do to connect with this country is find a patch of land, take your shoes off and reach out and speak to your ancestors.

Michael: So, a patch of land, not concrete.

Danièle: Yeah, concrete's pretty hard to connect with isn't it, if you think about it, but all of us can maybe find a place that has a green space, not too far from our homes in an urban context. And we know the governments have been working towards greening places. You might laugh at me and that's okay. I go to Centennial park and I talked to the black ducks there who part of our totemic structure. Yeah, you're allowed. I say, I've got this problem, buddy. 

Siân: Walawaani njindiwan 

Danièle: Walawaani njindiwan. Walawaani njindiwan is Dhurga and it means "wish you safe travels" basically. And I do, when I've got troubles, I go and sit there next to the pond and I say, look, I'm here because I've reached this fork in the road, or I need help with this, that, or the other.

And you know, it's amazing country speaks back to you. If you listen in a different way, if you feel in a different way, if you're open. It is, but also an action.

Michael: It's a doing thing. You've got to do it. 

Danièle: Yeah. Yeah.  You can't, just go I'm going to connect to country and read about it.

Michael: So, it's like meditating.

Danièle: You can't watch TV and connect to country.

Siân: It is a bit like meditating.

Michael: But then it's so much more because, Siân, connection to country means something different to us from an architecture and building built environment example it means we want a document that explains how we're going to connect to country in this project. And that's usually outcomes that are within the project's ability. Um, sometimes not, sometimes we can for more. 

Siân: So, Michael, I'll turn it on to you. How do you connect with country in the work that you do with WSP, for example?

Michael: Geez. So many layers of thinking.  I try to take some pride in being able to communicate and engage directly with elders or knowledge holders and through that, through their, process or by engaging with them, see them be involved in the project or be amazed that we can do a design  that reflects their knowledge. I guess I'm just saying, engaging with them and seeing their reactions to projects. It's rare that you have a client a bit like that. Because in some ways they are our client, the traditional owners hold the knowledge we're doing engagement with them. But in some cases, they're artists. So, they're actually doing work and just to assist and be part of that and to go, no, don't do a boomerang like that. Or, don't do dot paintings here. That's not appropriate.   That's the co-design for me. 

Siân: So, do you want to elaborate a little bit on that, Michael, appropriate design for country. And then maybe share us an example of a project that you worked on that really all came together and felt really good.

Michael: Yeah, in some ways a good outcome is when everyone's happy in particular, the elders are happy. 

Siân: Hmm. 

Michael: And so, I think where we've used Kulin nation patterns and knowledge of country and embedded multilayered in the LXRA, level crossing removal projects.

Siân: Kulin nation being the Melbourne region and LXRA level crossing removal alignments?

Michael: Yeah. And that, that was appropriate because Aunty Caroline who holds the IP, intellectual property, got involved heavily in and loved it and is an advocate for Aunty Caroline Briggs.   But then on the opposite, I suppose there is the inappropriate, which I think comes in so many forms. Elders not being paid enough for their knowledge or not being paid on time.

Siân: Yeah. And wanting ongoing engagement from elders, not having the resources to support that 

Michael: Yeah. Or a theme or a story being used, that's inappropriate for the community. Or an individual being raised to that point where, a family is fighting over why this uncle was chosen to be honored and not this uncle. So, in terms of appropriateness, it's such a relevant question. Part of my knowledge on that came from Cities of Whiteness, who was that written by? 

Danièle: Can't remember. 

Michael: Good book, but it was just giving you an idea that if we're engaging in this, it has to be Aboriginal led. We have to get the appropriate community involved, so people or knowledge people, and then we need to do it appropriately. 

Siân: Yeah.  And, are there any particular aspects of the things that we do that you'd like people to know more about?  Like personally find it great that you guys are in this space because a lot of my friends, I can't talk about my work with, because they actually don't understand it.  They get it on a superficial level, but they're not designers and they're not indigenous a lot of them.

So, they try to understand, but they don't always. So, having you both in my life really helps because, I can easily say to Dani, hey, what about this? And she'll say, oh yeah, look up these people or go in that direction. And same with you, Michael.  I might be a bit blurry on what it is I'm supposed to be doing. And it's so easy to have that clarity, having the network with both of you. 

Michael: Thank you. 

Siân: What attributes or what features of what we do, would you like the broader public to be somehow aware of?

Michael: Dani? Eldest first. 

Danièle: Oh God, oldest you mean. I'm not sure. I want them to know about my work. I want them to know where they are and that this place was designed in relation to the country and the deep knowledges of the place and the people who were born and their DNA was born from this place.

And so, I'm tired of living in places that are designed after Europe or America. I think we need to have our own design vernacular that is of here. And until we address that long story and address our relationships with country and address the other part that's been shoved under the carpet for however many 230 years, it's not going to be.

And that's, I guess that's the reckoning that Aboriginal people and including Aboriginal spatial disciplinarians, if you want to call us that, people working in special disciplines, that's what we've been calling for is address this. Because there'll be a really fantastic outcome, which is design of place.

Michael: There's a lot in that. The idea of a unique vernacular that exists of knowledge and design from this country. That's still here, that we can tap into. And then the idea that it has to be external. Or there has to be an external element to this where it needs to be visible. We can't just be sneaky about it or not do it, or we need to actually change and make it more visible. Does that make sense?

Siân: A social responsibility to show the unique richness and diversity of our cultures here in Australia.  That's something that bringing people back to first principles of, okay, this was never a wilderness. There's not one part of this continent that was wilderness. Wilderness is a place devoid of people. Every inch of this land is, was, and will continue to be loved and cared for.  It doesn't matter who owns the piece of paper that says I own the land because we belong to the land and we'll care about it, regardless of who holds that piece of paper. And that we want to be engaged in what happens to this place that holds the bodies of our ancestors and the past, present and future.

And I guess also that, Aboriginal people are not a homogenous group of people wandering around in the desert or on the coast or in the mountains. We're literally right across the place with different languages, different stories and different ceremonies and it's not past it's still current. So, a lot of, the things I do when I do research is actually making sure that the language isn't in the past, because when you're researching and there's people writing about the Aboriginal people, they lived here and it's no, they live here. Changing it from was to is. And its really simple tweaks, but it changes that whole narrative that Aboriginal people were here, but the European culture's here now, and it let's just move on.  No that, that's not the whole story.

The story is Aboriginal people are still here with the new civilization and together we can move forward and make a better place. Working together. So yeah, there's some of the things I'd like people to be aware of when thinking about, what is this connecting with country and how can I do it? Learn whose country live on. What's some of the interesting stories and sad stories, because there's going to be both. What are some of the unique features that make this country what it is, for example, where I live here in, in Northern Rivers, New South Wales, there's bora rings everywhere, all the way up into Southeast Queensland. So, it's sort of like it's a gathering place. 

They would sing and dance and tell stories, do ceremony, barter, exchange, gatherings the cultures, all sharing. So, the Bunya people would have invited people up to join their Bunya ceremonies, which is still being revived now, which is awesome.  Coastal people would invite the mountain people down to the coast where they'd eat the mullet and share the feast of mullet. 

It’s endless, if you're just even interested in cultural and historical stuff, that's endless what you can learn. Let alone the contemporary and then looking into the future management and how we can bring traditional knowledge into this contemporary space that in itself is another fascinating subject. And hopefully it just is perpetuated and builds momentum so that everyone can be involved. We're all responsible for the places that we live in, not just the government.

Michael: All right. So how do we make new 'us'es or new people that want to get into the work that we're doing? What advice would you give to young Aboriginal people to get here? Because we've made it, right?

Danièle: Sort of. Some days it took me three goes to go through uni. I had, probably, if I had joined the two first degrees I tried to do together, I would have had a full one, but I couldn't quite manage that. And I found university to be extremely, in all three goes, foreign and unwelcoming and surreal and that's not okay that it felt like that.

But it is probably how it feels for most Aboriginal people and it's okay to feel like that it is like that. I think is important to know and to persist. And if it takes three goes, then maybe at the end one, you go all the way to the top.

Michael: So, you're saying that they should educate themselves, should get a degree? Because they're useful in the industry?

Danièle: Look, if you want to be an architect in the traditional sense or a spatial designer or a landscape designer, as we are, in the sense that we identify in terms of our professions, then you do have to get a degree. If you want to contribute to this industry, there are many ways to do it that don't require a degree.

And I know that many elders say, I went into the Bush and that was my degree. And they have as much to contribute as what we do. It's just, we're contributing differently. And so, it really depends on what your end goal is or what you want to do. If you want to build structures, we know currently in the system we've got, you have to have certain qualifications. But that doesn't mean that you can't contribute in other ways, if you don't want to get those qualifications.

Michael: What do you think Siân?

Siân: I see that the landscape and the environment that we work in, as in the corporate world and the government world that we're working in as designers, is changing. I don't think 20 years ago, these jobs existed, the ones that we're doing.  And so, there's space being made to hold people like ourselves and to allow us to work in the space. It's not always easy, but it is actually quite rewarding.

Yeah. And things are getting better. Just the fact that we have been invited to do a podcast, for example, indicates that people are interested and willing and open to learning more about indigenous philosophy, the way that we see things. And I think a lot of people really want to know how to bring it into their workspace, and how to engage.  There's a lot of space for more of us anyone that's interested in design land management, collaborating, art.  There is space for our culture, I guess is what I'm saying within the corporate world now. It's becoming much more fertile for the people that don't sit inside the normal box. And that's exciting. That's really cool. We don't know what the future will bring, but the trend is going in the right direction from my perspective.  Yeah.

Michael: My advice would be to draw well and at least for what I'm doing you need the skills to communicate what you're thinking.  And the thinking part's tricky, because you've got to spend a lot of time particularly in the Aboriginal design. You know, and that's why I love Kevin O'Brien and Dillon Kombumerri, Carroll Go-Sam, they're really trying to think deeply and abstractly about translating knowledge that is from various contexts into a project or into a built form or into a structure or into an art piece. And both of you do it to. I think we’ve; I've been inspired by your work and the thinking that goes into getting it right. And so, to do that, you've got to do a lot of reading. I think you've both said some great books. Bill Gammage, Greatest Estate on Earth, really moved my thinking quite a lot about seeing country in a different way.

Siân: A template sort of thing. 

Danièle: I think there's some great listenings and watchings you can do as well if you're not a reader. There's a lot of work that's being done in other ways that supports those who learn in different ways as well, or who use oral ways of sharing knowledge. And that opens up a whole avenue of understanding and of research. And in my PhD, I relied on the ways of recording knowledge that weren't to do with a written form a lot. And that included things like cultural practice. And so, there's so many ways that you can learn how to do drawing, learn how to understand and think deeply that don't have to be in a Western way. And I think that for people who don't relate to university ways, that doesn't mean that, that, you have to be limited by them. The world's pretty broad now with the www. 

Michael: And in particular, the technical. I learned Photoshop from YouTube.  And I use it every single day. 

Siân: They didn't teach us at uni anyway, when I did it, I don't know how I learned actually. 

Danièle: Classmates. 

Siân: Hmm, probably asked Michael a lot of questions.  

Michael: So is it, we'll wrap it up. 

Siân: Yeah. I want to, I've got my hand up.

Michael: Oh.

Danièle: That was very lovely and attentive of you, Siân.

Siân: Thank you. I touched on Covered by Concrete earlier, and I think it'd just be nice for our listeners' understanding of what that meant. 

So it was an art project that we did together for Underbelly Arts back in 2015. And the Underbelly Arts is held on Cockatoo Island or the original name for Cockatoo Island was Wareamah or is Wareamah.  And when we're on the island, we had a bit of a concept of, what we'd like to do to a point. But through questioning, what was this place and trying to understand more about the island, we realized that there was not much information provided about the island.

So we did our own research and actually created our own signage about the indigenous history of the island. And then through that, we found that the island had been massively altered through mining of the sandstone. The footprint of the island was expanded, the foreshore was increased, some of the stone was taken away to make Sydney Harbour Circular Quay. And so, we really felt a bit sorry for Wareamah. And it was like, well, how do we bring some country back onto the island? And also tell people the story of the island? So, using concrete the tool of the colonizer, so to speak, we created this spatial map of the original footprint of the island through research.

We found the original shape and footprint, and we recreated that and embedded into it local  species that would have been on the island from adjacent parklands and push that into the cement before it dried and then burnt out elements of it to bring cultural fire back onto country. So, there's all these layers of how to find country amongst an industrial space and within an industrial space. And yeah, that really helped, I think, all of us to see how through a little bit of curiosity, interest and investigating, we could create a story a place that not everyone would know but many people were interested in.

Michael: They're very simple questions, aren't they?  What was this place and what was country, essentially? And then we did this huge concrete thing.

Siân: The spatial map of the island.  Anyway, that, that was one of the first projects that we worked together and developed this methodology inspired by Kevin O'Brien, the architect, based up in Brisbane. He's uncovering country or investigating country thinking. 

Michael: Yeah, it was great wasn't it? I found it a really interesting way to look at not just Aboriginal country, but a place in itself after you've built it, and a post analysis, you know, are we happy with this?

Yeah, it's a complex thing. And then we just we just love concrete. Dani and I did a lot of concrete models. That's what that's been our material. We're using the material of the colonizer. 

Siân: That's what, that's my words. But we were also talking about what was underneath the concrete. So, using the concrete was a way of saying, this is right underneath your feet somehow. 

Michael: Yeah. 

Siân: Okay. I've got a wrap up question.    Do either of you have anything coming in the next few months? 

Michael: I'm going to Wagga Wagga to paper on the special activation precinct work we did there, which is looking at country. Yeah. If you buy a ticket, come with me. But it's looking at country from a high level, masterplanning level, which is I think the most appropriate level.

Siân: And SAP stands for special activation precinct.

Michael: Yeah. They're activating a whole bunch of regional land roughly along the corridor of the inland rail and it goes down to Victoria and up to Queensland. So, it's all, all behind the Great Dividing Range is neglected rail, different grades. And so, they want to be able to pump tons and tons of freight through which is really going to activate the area.

And the good thing about DPIE and the agencies is they're like, we want to hear what Aboriginal people have to say about the land we're going to activate. And they've loved it, elders I've been involved with. So, I'm going to go talk about that.

Siân: Great.  I'm going to have a special Firesticks directors' meeting hopefully in Cairns next month. If everything goes well, where we will look at some strategic planning for the future. So that's always very valuable time spent with the other directors working through some of our training programs. And we've got a whole lot of new staff working for us. So, a bit of a group bonding effort, which sounds really nice. I hope we get to do it.  Dani's got lots of classified information that she's not going to share with us about her projects.

Danièle: There's a lot can't actually talk about. Yeah, unfortunately. 

Siân: We'll do a podcast one day and you can tell us about it.

Danièle: Yeah, the only one I can talk about, not the only one, the one that I will talk about is the work that I've been doing with you, Mike, in Uni of New South Wales and the Alumni Green with Aunty Esme Timbery. The building named after Aunty Esme Timbery.

And we've been working with Aunty Esme's cousins, or brother and sister. They call each other brother and sister because they grew up together. And that's how it works in our ways.  And so that's Uncle Greg Simms and Aunty Marjorie Dixon and also Aunty Esme's nephew, Uncle China Timbery, and we've been bringing a whole lot of Aboriginal knowledge and understandings into making that into a really Aboriginal looking and feeling place. We hope.

Siân: And that's with WSP and architects.  

Danièle: Peter McGregor is the architect. 

Michael: It's funny, Siân it's a funny process where Dani and I are on two projects where we're both reviewing each other's work roughly. 

Siân: How's that going? 

Michael: Oh. 

Siân: You get each other. 

Michael: We love each other's work.

Siân: Oh, yeah. Oh, what a great idea. 

Michael: She's the best designer. Where'd you find this designer? 

Siân: How cool. 

Michael: She must have talented siblings. No, but we know each other's method and we know good design in terms of, well we think we do. So of course, we're going to like it, but it's funny to just be in that process.

Siân: Yeah, that's great.

Danièle: Yeah.

Michael: I got really embarrassed when I was talking to you the other day, Dani, when you asked me that question. We're in this for review and Danièle was like, how are you doing connection with country? And what's going on with the community? And I was like, oh, my ears went red. Pretty funny.

Siân: Oh, only your sister can have that happen, right?

Michael: Think it was that was why.  I had a moment where I thought, oh my God, I'm talking to Danièle and grilling me over what we do. Then I got just embarrassed. It was funny. It was funny. I just, I lost my track and started babbling. 

Siân: That's great.

Michael: Not like Covered by Concrete. There were tears, right? I remember that. 

Danièle: There was blood, sweat and tears.

Michael: I got really poopy cause someone didn't apologize.

Siân: Oh, I don't remember that.

Michael: She was like, I'm not going to apologize. You will apologize. Then I think I sat in the corner for a while.

Danièle: No, it was fun.  The joys of working with siblings.

Siân: Let's do it again.

Michael: We forgave each other instantly, so that's the joy. Cause if you did that with anyone else, you'd be 

Siân: Oh 

Michael: I'm never going to see them again.

Siân: Yeah. And you would not put the effort into actually reclaiming any relation.  

Michael: Yeah. 

Siân: We have a relational philosophy.

Danièle: Probably. 

Siân: All right. So, I think in the podcast links, there'll be some information about how to get in contact with us. If anyone wants to have a chat say hello. If you want some indigenous design solutions or discussions for your project, I think I've just taken over your facilitator's role, Michael. So sorry.

Danièle: Good job.

Michael: I set it up and you brought it home.

Siân: There you go. That's how we operate. It's how we roll. 

Michael: Thanks, that was great. 

Siân: Yeah. Thanks for joining us. You two. 

Michael: Thanks for doing it, Dani. Siân, thank you. Loved it.

Outro: We hope you enjoyed this episode of People and Place. To hear more, find us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and Google podcasts. You can also find us on LinkedIn and Facebook at WSP in Australia and on Instagram and Twitter at WSP_Australia.